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Nato rift deepens over Iraq


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Frankly I'm insulted.

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Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.

I thought we've hashed it over pretty good. He don't get out much do he?

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Remo

It appears Nato came to an agreement once France was excluded!

Good things come to those who wait. Now we see the worst of the worst. Unless you're on the other side and consider the US the worst.

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Ummm, now you've got me confused. That speech was attributed to Sen Byrd no? I know what he was trying to say. He was saying only the editors had the guts to question the call for war and most of the senate did not. Where does Bush come into this?

As for the other statement I often feel the gov't is like a mean old parent and does "what's good for you" whether you (america) wants it or not. Just trust them.

But in this case most do want it. 60% or so favor a war if the question is generic. Start getting specific and things start changing though.

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Ummm, now you've got me confused. That speech was attributed to Sen Byrd no? I know what he was trying to say. He was saying only the editors had the guts to question the call for war and most of the senate did not. Where does Bush come into this?

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Unless you're on the other side and consider the US the worst.


Most of the antiwar folks point the finger directly at Bush and his administration. I think the way the media throws around "anti-American sentiment" is a distortion...unless your talkin the Parisians.....however they don't like many people anyway....I hope you make that distinction.Bush is not representative of the American will..he is the result of a broken election based on the lesser of two evils..truly a depressing expression of current American politics and a deeply troubled democratic process.

I don't agree the discussion on war has come close to what is acceptable....but that's a result of a lethargic and cowed media. ThereÔÇÖs a ton of dissent out there....but it isn't given any serious attention....for reasons I find more disturbing than the potential for war.

The government is (mostly) a collection of special and corporate interest. They do whats good for business first (top 5%), themselves second (top 5%), and "the people" last.when it doesn't conflict with the first two.

An attack is at 60% but like you said, from there it gets really conflicted....I say that drops significantly in a week...and more from there....unless we go to rio red and run out of duct tape....

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"Most of the antiwar folks point the finger directly at Bush and his administration."

Bush mostly I would think. The rest are just going along with it for political expediency and because he's the prez. Even Colin finally got on board.

"I think the way the media throws around "anti-American sentiment" is a distortion..."

I'm not so sure about that. I knew I should have posted that AOL poll. But I couldn't copy it and was too lazy to type it. There were three questions or "answers" if you will. Is america (and I have to paraphrase horribly)

1. A Bastion of freedom and democracy

2. Well intentioned but wrong

3. A belligerent Superpower

Americans answered 60% #1. 30% #2. and 10% #3. The UK and others was almost reversed. Most everyone (again about 60%) chose Belligerent superpower with the remaining two answers about the same ratios.

"unless your talkin the Parisians.....however they don't like many people anyway..."

I have heard that. My homeroom teacher was also the French teacher. She went to France and told a story about how the French count one on their thumb and two on their forefinger and so on. If they can tell you are American and you ask for one of something and even say "un" but use your forefinger for one like most everyone I have ever heard of does they would give you two just to be a pisser.

"Bush is not representative of the American will..he is the result of a broken election based on the lesser of two evils"

Most everyone I know votes that way. That's why I wouldn't vote for so long. Choosing the lesser of two evils is no choice at all. Broken election I can agree with but it's over and we got what we got. I didn't like Bush but Gore scared the hell out of me with his environmentalism. We need stuff, we use stuff. Let's use it. Sure be careful about it, plan for replacement where possible and recycling where not, but let's not go crazy. But call me in 50 years and we'll see what the history books decided.

"I don't agree the discussion on war has come close to what is acceptable...."

It's getting there. It's not the best but it's better than it was. I have also thought the Bush administration wouldn't let looose the so called evidence for two reasons. The first not to tip Saddam off of course but the second was that if we do go in and find something really big we can point to it and say "Told ya so".

"ThereÔÇÖs a ton of dissent out there...."

Squeaky wheel gets grease. When do you (the gov't) decide that the loud minority is more correct than the willing majority?

"for reasons I find more disturbing than the potential for war."

There is a lot in that. But then again as with other things how do you decide what's going on? How much is controlled by sensationalism that gets ratings thus more ad revenue? How much is controlled by a cowed or cooperative media?

"An attack is at 60% but like you said, from there it gets really conflicted....I say that drops significantly in a week...and more from there....unless we go to rio red and run out of duct tape...."

Call me in a week. I bet it don't change much.

As always my opinions only.

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Bush mostly I would think. The rest are just going along with it for political expediency and because he's the prez. Even Colin finally got on board

I don't know...the problem is the guy comes off as lacking a certain....er....brain? Really, the people I've talked to have the impression he isn't driving this chuck wagon.

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It's getting there

Mainstream journalism is compromised. Bottom line. They are minimally effective at providing content or investigative work. They are overwhelmingly effective at framing debates and in turn generating policy. Today the media is owned by a small number of companies and are driven by the bottom line. Media is not a normal business it has a special duty to the democratic process. If you want good info use those sources sparingly.

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A belligerent Superpower

That's the key. People are starting to see the clear disconnect between the will of the people and the government. In the countries that support Bush it's only the government, not the majority of the people. Our polls are different but I haven't reviewed the methodology of the poll takers. If you poll a thousand upper middle class people who have no children in danger the results are usually very different from those who may be drafted or have kids in the service. How the question is asked is very important also. Most of the support is for a vague attack. You start talking casualties and those numbers go down. Anyway, I donÔÇÖt see it as anti-American I see it as anti-Bush.

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That's why I wouldn't vote for so long. Choosing the lesser of two evils is no choice at all. Broken election I can agree with but it's over and we got what we got

Personally I'm outraged. If you critically look at the election process it's a sick and twisted affair that has very little to do with offering choice. This country is denied a vibrant and engaging politics for the gain of a limited amount of people.that is an outrage as well. People do not vote and for good reason. Third parties are shut out by the two parties who cannot even capture more than half of the electorate for the highest office in the country. He who makes the rules...rules. People are fed up and should be. This situation is criminal.but slowly changing.

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Sure be careful about it, plan for replacement where possible and recycling where not, but let's not go crazy

Environmental issues are interesting. Having industry that pollutes is basically an inefficient operation. There is a cost for destroying the environment in human terms and later in capitol for cleaning up. Plus if the third world is to industrialize it needs to be in a nontoxic way. REAL scientists understand that the biosphere can only take so much abuse. It is an inefficient operation transferring cost back onto the local communities...it is irresponsible and immoral....and fiscally unsound.

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I have also thought the Bush administration wouldn't let looose the so called evidence for two reasons. The first not to tip Saddam off of course but the second was that if we do go in and find something really big we can point to it and say "Told ya so".


The administration went into this whole damn thing demanding unfettered access. They got it and now they can really use it. They don't want to. There is more to this than the rhetoric. People do not trust this administration because of the history and the secrecy. I don't think they're wrong.

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When do you (the gov't) decide that the loud minority is more correct than the willing majority?

Good question. We'll see how this plays out but it's easy to sit at home and say go get em'. It takes a lot more to get out in the cold and make your voice heard.

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I bet it don't change much

You could be right....dunno.

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As always my opinions only

Not illegal yet.

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Humm. I would of thought that BCM would be too violent to be played by liberals.

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Yeah and I though it was too complicated for conservatives....

LOL! (on both counts)

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Originally posted by Steve Schacher:

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When on earth did the government go from being the Protector of the people to the provider for the people?

I would have to say right about the time the Senate and the congress decided it was in our best interest to be enrolled in a forced retirement plan, aka Social Security.

Whoever dreamed this farcical nonsense up turned our government into ? a bunch of pirates

They take our money with the promise that you will get it back, without interest BTW, when you reach the age of 65. And just recently they bumped it up to 69 because they figured out that all us baby boomers would hit it about the same time and break the bank so to speak

We would be better . served by not looking at the ideology, let's get rid of the
idiocy

I am seriously interested on how this ideology got itself so engrained into the ideology of what a government is to do.


When "equal opportunity" became "equal outcome."


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Where to even try to straighten this up? First off;

quote:

Saldrin

Humm. I would of thought that BCM would be too violent to be played by liberals.

Saldrin, first, attack the argument not the arguers; second, it's called suspension of disbelief. You have to have suspension of disbelief to play this game. That has nothing at all to do with people's real life political orientation.

Lotharr; sigh, just about shame on you for responding in kind.

RM, WeeGee, and Ep5 thanks for putting some humor on the subject.

Now, guess what? Nato kicked France out of general talks to get the agreement that was in place in the first place. I.E. Security council Mutual Defense. Now that Turkey is assured of the mutual defense treaty they now try to hit the US up for more money.

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Now that Turkey is assured of the mutual defense treaty they now try to hit the US up for more money.

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From the BBC:

The US has offered Ankara an aid package that includes $6bn in grants and up to $20bn in loan guarantees in return for their use of Turkish bases.

But Ankara has demanded more than $30bn in assistance, Reuters news agency reported, citing US sources.


This gets more and more interesting all the time.

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quote:

Originally posted by Cmdr Chavik:

RM, WeeGee, and Ep5 thanks for putting some humor on the subject.

Now, guess what? Nato kicked France out of general talks to get the agreement that was in place in the first place. I.E. Security council Mutual Defense. Now that Turkey is assured of the mutual defense treaty they now try to hit the US up for more money.

Your welcome, its just I hate to see good decent discussions get engulfed by political *****ing from two stubbon bastards, even though thats pretty much what politics is about. (Although I admit I've done it myself more than once as well).

I'm glad we finally kicked France out. Honestly, I'm almost afraid to say that I think they're only going against us because they just can't get along with us. We really have humiliated them enough. Lets see, we save their asses during two wars, in the second of the two actually RE-TOOK the entire damn country. Thats pretty humilitating if you ask me, can't even defend your own country. Its all the anti-american bullshit that goes on in europe, sprouts from France I'm sure. Can't we all just get along.

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I don't need to continue French bashing but it's just so easy...

frenchvictory.gif

Both the left and right side of the argument make valid points. Points that are not valid from the left are:

It's about oil (text from Nealz Nuze)

"BUT ITÔÇÖS ALL ABOUT OIL, ISNÔÇÖT IT?

Yeah, sure. Its all about oil. Youre right. How could anyone possibly argue the point? Here  lets look at the massive evidence:

Saddam Hussein has steadfastly refused to abide by more than 17 demands by the United Nations that he divest himself of weapons of mass destruction. He has refused  but its all about oil.

Saddam Hussein has used chemical and biological weapons against his own people  but its all about oil.

Saddam says he has no nuclear weapons program. Inspectors find over 3000 pages of documentary evidence to the contrary  but its all about oil.

Saddam says his missiles cant fly more than the allowed 150 miles. Inspectors find engineering plans and other evidence which shows that Saddams missiles can fly to Tel Aviv and beyond. He lied  but its all about oil.

Saddam Hussein is on record as saying that his goal is one Arab world with one Arab ruler located in one Arab capitol. That ruler would be Saddam and that capitol would be Baghdad. But itÔÇÖs all about oil.

The UN inspectors were sent to Iraq not to find weapons, but to verify that Saddam had disarmed. Hans Blix says that they have not disarmed  but its all about oil.

Hans Blix says that Saddam Hussein has not accepted the fact that he must disarm. But itÔÇÖs all about oil.

The United States has an energy policy. All major industrial nations have energy policies. But the fact that the US has an energy policy means  its all about oil.

Dick Cheney used to work for Halliburton. Halliburton is an energy company. This proves itÔÇÖs all about oil.

When Dick Cheney became Vice President Halliburton didnÔÇÖt completely divest itself of any and all involvement with the oil industry. This proves that itÔÇÖs all about oil.

George Bush used to work in the oil industry. More proof that itÔÇÖs all about oil.

Convincing evidence, IsnÔÇÖt it?

"

It's because they aren't white

Everything just has to involve race doesn't it?

Besides, see above points about oil and replace oil with not white

If we attack him we invite attack on ourselves

And that is all the more reason to attack him, since we would be blackmailed to tie our hands and not fight him.

More to come.

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quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

I don't need to continue French bashing but it's just so easy...

Hmm... so does that mean that i can indulge in some Dubya-bashing due to his shortcomings in the brain department?

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quote:

I don't need to continue French bashing but it's just so easy...

(pic)


hmm I tried but didn't get that kind of result, BUT most of the pages in the list referred to the lack of "french military victories" or the victories vs. the french military (eh!)

Pauvres Français....

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quote:

WeeGee

Your welcome, its just I hate to see good decent discussions get engulfed by political *****ing from two stubbon bastards, even though thats pretty much what politics is about. (Although I admit I've done it myself more than once as well).

Eh, well, I have done it as well but we agreed long ago not to do generic party bashing. That's what I felt I was pointing out. Saldrin is welcome to join the discussion.

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WeeGee

I'm glad we finally kicked France out.

Ummm "we" didn't do anything. The NATO security council locked France out of security talks. Perhaps I misspoke a tad above. France is part of NATO but not part of the security council. That is how I understand it.

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WeeGee

Honestly, I'm almost afraid to say that I think they're only going against us because they just can't get along with us.

Which is odd because they gave us the Statue of Liberty.

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$ilk

I don't need to continue French bashing but it's just so easy...

It was cute the first time.

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Rm

Hmm... so does that mean that i can indulge in some Dubya-bashing due to his shortcomings in the brain department?


Ummmmmmmmm, nope.

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Originally posted by Cmdr Chavik:

Ummm "we" didn't do anything. The NATO security council locked France out of security talks. Perhaps I misspoke a tad above. France is part of NATO but not part of the security council. That is how I understand it.


Ahhh, simple misunderstanding there.

As for the Statue of Liberty, that was before they started getting smart with us. What they don't understand is that they're no better than we are, we have our flaws as well. Unfortunately, they seem to think they rule the world and we are their patsies. *Sigh* They've gotta be confused, we're supposed to be on the same side here.

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