Of pilots, promotions, and other Wing Commanderisms.

[Guest Edward Coleman]

What would you think of having promotions among officers and pilots in BC3020? They could be automatic, or you personally could review stats and records of individual crew members to determine what they deserve. It seems like it would add to the "militarial realism" of the game.

Also, what about briefings? Instead of merely "pointing and clicking" to launch an IC, perhaps in some way assigning a "Wing Commander" or having your CO or some other officer assign duties to pilots. Say you detected that an Insurgent strike fleet had jumped into the Mars region, and you were at Earth, maybe long range sensors could detect that there was an Insurgent fleet but not exactly what it was composed of. Your BC is busy w/ something at the Earth region, and it needs to stay, and so you have your WC or CO assign a couple "Wings" to check out the fleet and bring back reconnisance data.

It seems that it would be more realistic because --

1) IC's (or any ship) need to be "readied" for their launch, engines started, systems brought up, etc.

2) Pilots don't sit inside a cockpit all day every day until they retire, waiting for an order to launch...

3) Pilots get briefed in the military forces today of all situations, they take notes, etc.... (except for scrambles of course)

Just my thoughts.....

Waddaya think?

------------------

Edward Coleman

Commander

ISS Nemesis

[Guest]

The promotion thing sounds great! Medals for the pilots would be cool too!

[Supreme Cmdr]

I've been thinking about the promotions aspect but until I can come up with a good reason without making more work for myself in the name of completeness, I'm not going to think very hard about it.

As to the rest of your post, hehe, wishful thinking is all that is.

[Guest Marco Haenraets]

< Say you detected that an Insurgent strike fleet had jumped into the Mars region, and you were at Earth, maybe long range sensors could detect that there was an Insurgent fleet but not exactly what it was composed of. >

I read the same sort of wish in a other form, i thought it was something about a wish of newsflashes, which be collected in a sort of news-log and when there very inportant said by the comms-officer. (received emissions by our friends the journalist's).

Or something like a intel-log; comms officer reports a incoming intel msg, say, like a troop deployment on pluto.

Maybe TAC knows some usefull things, waht should be reported.

------------------

Commander Haenraets, GCV Princess Mirj (34466503)

Prime Fleet

Ship's motto: "We keep the dirt where it belongs, six feet deep or floating through space... in dust particles."

[Charles Lindsey]

Using 2.06 yet? (unofficial, let me clarify ) Derek has already implemented Caste/Race alliance changes. It's pretty cool.

Specific troop/ship/fleet deployments would require accessing the Galcom COMNAV sytem at all times.

BC3K manual, section 6.0 Overview says this:

quote:

---

its main view of the outside world is provided by its internal navigation systems with triangulated data from several GALCOM probes and satellites scattered across the galaxy. If anything should go wrong with the GALCOM Communications & Navigation, COMNAV system, most of the GALCOM ships linked to it

would be literally blind and would have to rely on probes launched from the ship for

general navigation and tactical data analysis.

---

I launch enough probes to fill up my commlink log in one mission. I'd hate to have all those reports coming in all the time. And don't say "Well you can turn them off" because that would defeat th epurpose of having it in the first place.

I think the race/caste change updates are cool. Though unless they become my enemy they are totally useless. Unless you want to go save some ships and gain that race as a Galcom member nation. Now that would be cool. But I'm digressing.

Constant updates of all deployments in the universe would be totally distracting in my opinion.You couldn't get anywhere in time to do anything about it. Plus it would clog your log file no end.

Commander Chavik

ICV Phoenix

[Supreme Cmdr]

The race/caste alliance changes are even more dynamic in BC:3020AD and your actions can now trigger a global war. You should get messages from GALCOM as alliances change. Go about taking out enough Empirian ships and don't be surprised if they get colder and colder toward the Terrans and eventually trigger open hostilities. Guess who gets court-martialed.

I'm taking suggestions on how to implement the promotions for crew. This would be restricted to pilots, marines and officers only. Submit your ideas in this thread.

I suspect that the system would automatically award medals/promotions (it is easier than have you do it manuallY) based on performance, AI etc. As you gain promotion and medals, your AI and skills improve etc.

I don't have a rank table for GALCOM yet but I was thinking of using the US Army or US Navy ranking model. Any ideas? Rattler?

[This message has been edited by Supreme Cmdr (edited 03-27-99).]

[Guest]

Hmmm...I was about to post...I LIKE the idea of having a delay to launch ICs. Something similar to the marine Prep for Combat. Ic pilots who are assigned to ICs station themselves in Operations...when the order for an IC to laucnh is given, they proceed from there to their IC and launch when ready.

As for promotions, I think an automatic system would be quicker (though a manual system more fun! *grin*) but ti would be cool to see a ranking syste,m original to the game. Maybe take the Army/Navy ranks and mess with the names a bit. EarthCOM needs a ranking system as well. I know everyone uses the rnak Lieutenant Commander for any officer not in command of a ship, so maybe that could be one of the higher ranks.

I'm happy to mess with names, but don't ask mne about real life military service. My father might know...*grin*.

------------------

Commander DeSylva

GCV First Light ISS01 -=- ISS Fleet Coordinator

www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/9206/iss/

Official BC3K Tester and Blind Man With Sleeves award winner

"Serve - with honour."

[Guest Marco Haenraets]

< I don't have a rank table for GALCOM yet but I was thinking of using the US Army or US Navy ranking model. >

Maybe this is something:

Keep the ranking simple, like this;

For the marines;

Marine, Corperal, Sergeant and a Chief of Marines (COM) .

We got 40 marines, so maybe it's better if we can make squads, with a group existment of say; 1 Chief, 1 Sergeant, 2 Corperals and 6 marines. That makes four groups and you make a maximum at the ranks you can have on the ship. (Not possible to get 40 marines with the rank of chief.)

For the officers and pilots;

Esign (lowest officer), Flight-Lieutenant (FL), Deck-Captain (DC), Major and Lieutenant Commander.

------------------

Commander Haenraets, GCV Princess Mirj (34466503)

Prime Fleet

Ship's motto: "We keep the dirt where it belongs, six feet deep or floating through space... in dust particles."

[Rattler]

Looking at the Naval Service rank structures,

There would have to be some minor changes made, although not too much. As for the Marine Contingency, it would work just fine as is. First, let's address the Naval Officers that you would normally find on an Aircraft Carrier:

Captain: Lord and Master of the Ship (Not used in BC3K)

Commander: Normally Department Heads or Squadron Commanders. BC uses this title for Lord and Master of the BC. No problem here.

Lt Commander: Senior Rank of Pilots, other Officers who are not in Command Assignments.

Lt: Mid-Grade Pilot Rank

Lt (JG): One step above "Butter Bars". Not mid grade, but not "Newbie" either.

Ensign: You guessed it, Old "Butter Bars" Himself. Newbie on the block, and fair game for all senior to him.

Chief Warrant Officer: True Mustang in a sense. He's come throught the Enlisted Ranks, Proving himself superior in maintenance and leadership skills. He's been a follower, leader, and now has earned the right to achieve Officer status. He's your walking book of knowledge. He knows your ship like the back of his hand, and can make things happen. He's not a Junior Officer, so don't treat him like one. You'll regret it if you do. "Nuff Said!"

Enlisted Structures:

Master Chief: As high as he can get, Not afraid of anything or any person. Not even the Lord and Master of the Ship.

Senior Chief: Still technical in nature, but rarely does any hands-on maintenance. Teaches the "Worker Bees."

Chief: Shop Supervisors. Normally does not do hands-on maintenance, except in extreme emergencies. Still there when the crunch comes though. Most proficient maintenance man available.

Petty Officers: I'll lump these guys into one group. There are 3 levels within this group. PO1 (most senior) to PO3 (most junior). All 3 of these ranks are for Technical Maintenance personnel (your Flight Engineers, System Engineers, and Medics).

Seamen/Airmen: Not quite Petty Officer Material.

Seaman/Airman Apprentice: Working on making Seaman/Airman.

Seaman/Airman Recruit: Again, most junior, most undertrained, and most deserving of your watchfull eye.

Marine Contingency:

Major: Detachment O-in-C. Normally the "Combat Officer". Starting to ring any bells here?

Then there would be a senior enlisted member, with subordinates:

Sergeant Major: Not afraid of anyone, not the Combat Officer, or any of his "Troopers." You might have a Master Gunnery Sergeant (TOP) here instead of the Sergeant Major.

Gunnery Sergeants: Normally only 2 per detachment.

Staff Sergeant: On a fast track to making "Gunny." Extremely high degree of skills and leadership potential.

Sergeants: Platoon Seargents.

Corporals: Lowest rank that is considered "Staff NCO's"

Lance Corporal: Climbing the ladder.

Pvt First Class (PFC): Not new, but not Lance Corporal either.

Private: Newbie. You guessed it, Needs supervision at all times. He's the guy that will demand all of your attention.

As far as I can tell, all of these ranks could be used in the BC3K world, save Captain. Marines could have Captain Ranking in lieu of Major for Combat Officer, but when a Navy Guy hears Captain, he thinks of Ship Commanding Officer. Kinda sacred to Rattler, so I don't recommend using that one.

Hope this helps.

------------------

Rattler, Spectre, Insurgent One

Official BC3K Tester

[email protected]

ICQ 12894104

[This message has been edited by Rattler (edited 03-27-99).]

[This message has been edited by Rattler (edited 04-06-99).]

[Supreme Cmdr]

This is getting interesting. Rattler, please send me this via email. Thanks

As for the squads for marines, that is a good idea but it will make handling them more complex. Still thinking....

[Guest]

The RPG marine strucutre we created (long ago) allowed Marine Battalions to assigne marine Platoons (minmum 40 men or women) to ships. Yan Vaillancourt had some good ideas of how marine platoons were further broken up in ther real world.

------------------

Commander DeSylva

GCV First Light ISS01 -=- ISS Fleet Coordinator

www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/9206/iss/

Official BC3K Tester and Blind Man With Sleeves award winner

"Serve - with honour."

[Supreme Cmdr]

uhm, I wasn't talking about breaking them up, even an orangutang can do that, I'm talking about in game support. Stay focused

[Pandora]

Re: Marine squads

If a squad does not get benefits from having a 'leader' then the whole idea is just eye candy and superfluous.

But what kind of bonus would that be?

AI? I have no idea of what this would do or if it would actually help.

Movement speed? Quite possible. The MOVE IT effect.

Acquisition/radar range? Might be a subtle way to increase 'organized effort'. Hard to tell.

Projectile Lifetime? Minor effect, except against stationary objects.

Weapon recharge time? Possible, but would be hard to explain, IMO...

Promotions could be automatical (preferred) and the assigning business could be as simple as automatically making the highest ranking member of a deployed group the leader.

TRANS deployment means a 1-10 man squad and SH deployment a 1-20 man squad.

No need to have 'fixed' squads or a command structure in the roster...

Pan,

Lead Tester BC3000AD

writing at 17:37 Bavarian Time (GMT+2) on 28 Mar 99

[Guest Ron Wallin]

On the idea of promotions:

Make it manual and based on the Cmdr.'s experience points. Once a Cmdr. reaches a certian number of experience points, he's alotted x number of promotions to give to his officers. These promotions would work kinda like the AI levels. Once I promote/award an NPC that NPC's skills go up a notch (say 10-30 AI points).

For instance: As a Cmdr., I've just reached the 10, 000 EP point. I'm now able to provide 4 awards/promotions to the bridge officers, or AC pilots. I've got to then decide where to spend the awards. I could give all four promotions to one of my IC pilots. But his AI would be close to 100 and he'd be taken away from me by GALCOM for other duties(moral movies, cushy desk job at HQ, etc.), and I'd have a new, green pilot and be out the 4 awards.

No, it would be best if I gave one each of my four IC pilots (their AI would go up, enabling them to fly better, kill faster, etc). But then the AI would go down and point or two for the rest of my bridge officers to reflect their disatisfaction toward my playing favorites.

My next 10,000 ep points come, and at 20000 total, I now have 7 awards/promo's to give. Remembering how moral and efficiency suffered the last time, I give one award to my two best pilots, one to the medical officer (remember, when she feels jaded people suffer longer), one to Paul Resnig (since being passed up last time, he's been overriding my marine assignments ) and the others to communications, navigation, and the flight officer.

Now everyone is happy, the ship is running efficiently, and i'm well on my way to... whoops, the hull was breached and my BC blew before I could evacuate... I guess I should have been able to reward the engineering pukes...

Cmdr. Akira

PS, as for marines, there doesn't seem to be any real bennifit for promoting them. Unless ground opperations become more of a factor, all their good for is searching for intruders. Yes, it would bennifit having their AI go up, but I've had marines with 30+ AI get killed by intruders just as easily as marines with 10 AI...

[This message has been edited by Ron Wallin (edited 03-28-99).]

[Charles Lindsey]

I had a good response (I thought) for this but the forum wasn't working or my server wouldn't punch through. Either way I couldn't post and I just now remembered this.

Anyway, about the squad leader. I was thinking that the benefit of having a squad leader would be that whatever order you gave to the leader the rest of the squad would perform the same action. Pick a leader and assign some men. Give the leader "Attack" orders for a target and the rest of the squad would "Attack" also.

I think the same commands we give our ships would work for marines with a few text changes. Perhaps "Copy Leader" or "Escort and copy". Something like that. I really am loathe to suggest commands because I canned myself once.

But if Marines are going to be individual entities (as ships are) then the same engine (Is it an entire engine?) could be used to command them. An addition of a "Copy Leader" command would get you all set up for however big a squad you wanted. Assign 20 marines to one leader and have them do the same thing as the leader. Be it "Move TO", "Attack", or "Defend".

This could also work for ships in Fleet C&C if the escort command doesn't already do the same thing (applies back to the marine thing to).

Anyway my two cents. We are used to the command stucture of the ships. Could it not be applied to the marines as well? First person perspective may skew all this but if you assigned your orders first then went into first person I think it could still work. Maybe well.

Of course something else entirely may be planned. If so, forget I said anything. *G*

Commander Chavik

ICV Phoenix

"Two Cents"

[Guest PC Martini]

Just my opinion, but I think that micromanaging every aspect (promotions, medals, etc.) of marines is beyond the scope of the game. The primary reason is that rank advancement would need to be tied to career efforts, not just a few engagements in the course of a game session(s). A limited system would provide game depth, without overburdening the player and still prevent marines from becoming overly powerful.

It's somewhat plageristic, but a system similar to what was used in M1 Tank Platoon might work better. In that system you had troops with ranks, and based on the success of the mission, a promotion or medal possibility arrises. Both have a positive effect on the individual troopers skill, but also slightly increase the unit's (squad, company, battalion, group) abilities (I believe this was essentially a modifier to reflect an increase in moral and skill increase of a unit which minimizes casualties and succeeds over the course of one or several campaigns...). For BC purposes not every mission would generate the results necessary to prompt one of these awards, nor should they. Field promotions would happen automatically as the need arrises: i.e. the platoon or squad leader is incapacitiated, the next senior ranking trooper receives an "acting promotion" to the next rank, but maintains pay and bonuses (in theory) of their previous rank. This status is maintained until a predetermined period of time passes (30 days?) or until the BC reaches a starstation or starbase. A commander can hold a review for full promotion at any time between these two, deciding to promote from within or chance getting a goldbrick from the next station.

The forty marine complement of a BC could break down in this manner (ultimately it could be merely for organizational show, or possibly effect combat ability based on casualties):

Command Staff:

CO - Lieutenant or Marine Captain

XO - Cadet or Lieutenant

1st Sergeant - Master Chief or Sr. Chief

Admin Section:

Top Sergeant - Master Chief or Sr. Chief

Section Sgt. - Staff Sgt. or Chief

Specialists (2) - Cpl. or Sgt.

Troopers (3) - Marine, Pvt., or Cpl.

Weapons Section:

Section Sgt. - Staff Sgt. or Chief

Specialists (2) - Cpl. or Sgt.

Troopers (3) - Marine, Pvt., or Cpl.

Squad Section (4):

Section Sgt. - Staff Sgt. or Chief

Specialists (1-2) - Cpl. or Sgt.

Troopers (3-4) - Marine, Pvt., or Cpl.

Weapons and Admin Sections double as troopers, depending on the mission.

Ideally additional marines could be transported from a starbase or orbital station (40-80 additional max, with more/less depending on ship type/class) for missions such as planetary scouting, system monitoring, resource collection, facilities protection (mining, research, production), and planetary settlement (first step towards colonization) in addition to boarding and combat missions. Most missions could be completed using a results engine, even with the Strike Pack. With the use of these planetary missions further support missions can be generated as resupply, fire support, base building, and diplomatic needs arise. (Newly discovered unaligned worlds, populated with derivatives of the existing races of varying technology levels anyone?) This also lends further support to creating the illusion of an assigned region of space for patrol purposes, and could provide an alternative to probes for monitoring systems (maybe also a means of providing reports to provide further game depth, without forcing players to sort through hundreds of updates not concerning them?).

A lot of ideas and theories, much of it wish list material. Thanks for allowing us the chance to dream!

amc

------------------

"You are entitled to your opinion, and part of that entitlement is respecting the differing opinions of others. But when you step into that uniform, the only opinion that matters is the one handing out the orders."

Bridge Log - GCV Infinite Shakedown Cruise

[Rattler]

Good plan Commander, Only one problem that I see with your breakdown. Now take this as it is intended. It's simply a point of order. You equate Chiefs with Staff Sergeants. That is incorrect. Cheifs, enlisted E-7's cross directly over to Gunnery Sergeants, enlisted E-7's. That's the only thing that I personally see wrong with it. It shows that you did some thinking here, and I commend you on your efforts.

------------------

Rattler, Spectre, Insurgent One

Official BC3K Tester

[email protected]

ICQ 12894104

[This message has been edited by Rattler (edited 04-06-99).]

[Supreme Cmdr]

....interesting

[Guest PC Martini]

Valid point Sir. The rank/organizational structure is not intended to accurately reflect existing ones in the US or UK TO&E. My line of thinking was based on the concept of an academy for officers, using identical ranks. Maybe something like:

- Admiral

- Commodore

- Captain

- Commander

- Lieutenant Commander

- Lieutenant

- Cadet

Multiple designators can be used for the Admiral rank, such as Force, Group, or Fleet Admiral. Assuming a rank of Lt. Cmdr. is minimum for command of a BC, additional vessels can be requested through TACOPS with each additional rank (maybe a means of establishing a difficulty level system determined by how many resources you have to start with?). At Cmdr. you can request two BC's and a supply ship. Cpt. allow three BC's, a carrier, and a supply ship. Cmmdr. allows 3 BC's, a carrier, a transport, and a supply ship etc.

Possible enlisted ratings:

- Master Chief

- Senior Chief or Staff Sergeant

- Chief or Sergeant

- Corporal

- Private

- Marine or Sailor

Positional title is separate from rank. Commander would therefore be used for BC commanders, whether Lt. Cmdr., Cmdr., or Cpt. (I was thinking Captain in my previous example, similar to what is in use by the US Navy today). The title Marine prefaces the senior marine officer on board, whether Lt. or Lt. Cmdr. This would be similar for senior marine enlisted positions, such as 1st Sgt. or or Top Sgt. Naval positions could use positional titles sush as Section Chief or Division Chief.

Options for planetary missions can in part be tied to rank. For example, placing observation posts, collecting fresh supplies, establishing mining or research operations can be performed as a Lt. Cmdr. To build a permanent outpost, conduct planetary surveys, or interact (establish contact, infiltrate, sabotage, etc). requires being full Cmdr.

To this point the planetary missions would still be dependant on periodic resupply by the players BC or fleet; be it ammunition, consumables, buildng materials, etc. Each mission established generates reports to the BC, be it a weekly status update, request for supplies or reinforcment, or burst transmission when a vessel enteres the area. The BC (player) can then return to resupply from the planetary mission, reinforce, drop off research teams (engineers), attack the ship....

Planetary missions could encounter disease or hostile environments, forcing more frequent supply and troop replacement because of casualties. More advanced missions could encounter artifacts (small bonuses to existing systems or personnel?), natives (friendly/neutral/hostile, varying tech levels stoneage/toolage/industrial/technological/spacefaring/advanced), find large resource deposits (random engine used currently would work, possibly show a percentage increase in production). As a permanent base is built, it could have permanent buildings show up (generic copycat forms, GALCOM marines aren't know for their creative endeavours).

More ideas, most need much more fleshing out. I guess the idea is to make marine ops a functioning and contributing part of the game, yet not make it tedious and cumbersome. Thanks for letting me offer two cents more.

PCM

------------------

"You are entitled to your opinion, and part of that entitlement is respecting the differing opinions of others. But when you step into that uniform, the only opinion that matters is the one handing out the orders."

Bridge Log - GCV Infinite Shakedown Cruise

[Rattler]

Hehehe, I like your tenacity and conviction there Son! You sure you don't want to be an Insurgent?

------------------

Rattler, Spectre, Insurgent One

Official BC3K Tester

[email protected]

ICQ 12894104

[Guest REAPERMAN]

One question.

if you do implement the marine squads and say that you have a Sergant in command of the squad(10 men)and you have a squad leader or leutenant next in command what happens if at some point in the battle your Sergant gets killed your Leutenant(squad leader)take command no problem but if he then gets killed what happens then will the squad keep their heads or without a leader will they fall apart in a panic and run and hide in the nearest availible cover calling for immediate evac?

------------------

JOE BARRETT

Commander

GCV-DEMON

[Guest]

IMHO the "squad-as-a-unit" concept used in CLOSE COMBAT was pretty cool. You are their leader, not their minds...just order them to do something and its up to them if they do it or not (and how they do it).

Just a thought, feel free to *thumbs down* it :-)

*remembers when his "Scouts" took out an entire German machine gun nest...the heroism!*

[Guest Macon De'Witt]

A couple of thoughts

1)promotions should be automated exept for the big ones (MEDAL OF HONOR) ect those should require a Comander put his man in for it and GALCOM aproves (if enough EP's gained to warent the medal and the comander requests)

2)in refrence to what promotions would do for you in the game it should be two-fold

a)if the SC is going to include "moral"

in 3020 then both the chance to hold

moral and the cance to rally the

troops would be based on highest

ranking person in "zone of control"

b)certain ranks will be required to

lead certain missions as in Navy a

line officer is required to command

a ship or large instilation ect.

CMDR Macon De'Witt

GCV-Dark Flight

"It is the hard heart that kills"

[This message has been edited by Macon De'Witt (edited 05-06-99).]

[Guest Myownself]

Sorry, I'm new here, but I think that before you start talking about promotions and stuff, you really should think up a REASON for having them...hehe. What point would promotions serve?

While I'm on this topic, perhaps 3000ad inc. could hire a writer and come up with a real story for 3020:AD to go along with the mission campaigns. Every other game has a story, so why not BC3k? Now, I know you're all going to ask, "who needs a story?", and the only response I can come up with is, "Who doesn't?".

Almost every other game in the market has a story of some sort to go along with the missions in the game, so it must have a purpose...

[Guest Ron Wallin]

Myownself, thank you for the commentary. There is NO ACM in 3020. There is no Wing Commander story (for obvious reasons).

There doesn't need to be a story. BC has what we like to call a (dramatic pause, anyone, anyone)... HISTORY. You see, the players are alowed to.... make.... up.... the.... story.... as we play.

I understand that some people need boundaries, so you can use this simple story: You are the Commander of a cruise vessel on a 3 hour tour... a 3 hour tour... A wicked storm comes along and blows your BC into a crack in the time/space fabric of our universe. Your BC turns into a life raft and falls down a waterfall.

You wake up only to find your in a cave, dinosaurs all around, and weird aliens that ssssssssss when they're near so you call them the SSSSSSLeeee SSSSSSTack. But you have crystals that opperate various parts of this confined world.

It is your duty, Commander, to use the crystals to find a way out of this land of the lost... the land of the lost... and get Mr. and Mrs. Howell, the scientist, the movie star, and Mary Anne back to GALCOM HQ in time for that 2 hour made for t.v. special.

We can call the story GALCOM Five-Oh. You're Starsky and Hutch is special guest starring as Paul Resnig. But wait, that's not all. Telly Savalas will be starring in the roll of Supreme Commander Karl "Kojak" Reines and he's not happy. You disappeared whith his shipment of "Dum Dum's" (lollipops, suckers, etc.).

So look out, cause every bounty hunter in the galaxy is out to get the $15,000 in bounty. You'll never drop your shipment in deap space and slip into an alternate universe again.

IT's Battle Cruiser 3020 AD. Coming to a store near you.

Lando says: "There's nothing like a Colt45"

Alea says: "And how can this be? He is the quisax hadarak (spelling is off, so just pronounce it )

LeeLoo says: "Love, I don't know Love"

Darth Vader says: "Luke, I am your father...the DNA tests proved it!"

Bones says: "Damnit, Myownself, I'm a doctor not Harvard graduate serial writer.

Spok says: "The good of the many outweighs the one"

Kirk says: "The good of the one outweighs the many"

Kahn says: "Kirk....Kirk.....Kirk...."(echo's in space? who knew)

Bill Gates says: "No computer will ever need more than 640k of Ram"

Hope that works for ya

Cmdr. Akira

[This message has been edited by Ron Wallin (edited 05-07-99).]