starstations -- too weak? or cloaking device/PAD too powerful?

[xierxior]

i also want them near impossible to beat

[CommanderJohnson]

Ok, we are assuming that making them hard to beat is a good idea. What exactly is the benefit of making it so that you need FC&C to beat a station (as some people stated, having a fleet is a good difficulty for stations). There are still plenty of ways of getting killed in the game besides stations, and not everyone is going to be:

1. Smart enough

or

2. Have enough money

To fund cloaking for destroying or taking over stations. Also, the only notable benefit to attacking stations is if you can CAPTURE them, which many people have expressed difficulty in doing. Finally, if you want station attacks to be more difficult, make it more difficult yourself. I don't really see why the SC should have to take time to make station capture fundamentally more difficult (unless it's currently planned for MP or XP1), when we can do it ourselves. Make rules for yourself that you have to destroy the ODS system around a planet and disable the supply depot before attacking a station. Or make a self-made rule that you can not cloak when near stations. I'm sure that the beta testers will find any balance issues in the MP beta version, and making stations weak seems to be better for multiplayer so people actually have to FIGHT as opposed to hiding all the time.

[Spider-man]

Um, dredd, I have an Idea: I'll make the whole game more difficult by just attacking the station as a marine.

Look, the point of this is to make the game balanced, not give ourselves a challenge. I submit that the cloaking technology should be much more expensive (and therefore harder to acquire) or it should be useless against stations, or that the stations should be more powerful (thereby making C&C in single player, or cooperative strikes in multiplayer more useful), or that the starship guns should be less effective against stations.

I kinda like the idea of stations surrendering at say, 20% of their total hull value. This could be modified by the presence of support craft/enemy craft involved in the fray.

One other thing, there is a point to attacking stations besides capturing them. 1.DESTROYING THEM eliminates their ability to be used by others. 2. You get experience for destroying them.

--another related idea:

Notice that fully operational stations are NEVER destroyed or captured by the NPC crafts. This may be a limitation of the AI, but it would be awesome to come home to Galcom HQ and find that the Credians have captured the station! (or at least destroyed it)

[ 02-10-2002, 18:09: Message edited by: Spider-man ]

[weegee_101]

I have another idea, what about having stations, instead of just dispatching fighters, dispatch CCs? This could make stations more of a threat. You could also make it so when you enter a region of hostile space they dispatch a mil or pol ship to intercept you.

[CommanderJohnson]

Capturing stations is EASY if you know how to do it, and i'm pretty sure you get more EXP for capturing than for destroying (and you get FC&C for captured) Increasing the hull integrity or armor integrity for capturing would make capturing them INSANELY easy. Also, has anyone tried to capture a station by destroying all ships trying to dock with it? I remember hearing you can get it to emit a SOS at full power if it is blockaded.

The game is never "balanced" by things that may be edited with the game through the SC. There will always be someone who finds the game easy, and someone who finds it hard. A prime example is capturing stations. I have a 100% success rate in my station capture attempts now because I learned how to do it. Many people find it difficult. I find it sort of difficult to attack planetary bases w/o OTS missiles, many find it easy and are experts at it. By making station capture fundamentally harder, it will only be making the better players happy, and the ones who are just learning will just get frustrated quickly. We can easily make the game harder ourselves by not using the exploits. I mean, think about it. If a suggestion for improvement is making stations detect cloaked ships, just DONT CLOAK. It's the same exact result. The BC World is a world, and your to do what you want in it. If you want it to be difficult to take over a station, make it difficult yourself. Leave MP balance issues to the MP testers. If stations die too quickly, lower your IOD to 10-20%. The VCF says that stations are going to have more powerful turrets anyway, so for all of you that want to try to take em without cloaking, you can do it now with a danger of dying.

In the end, the SC made the game and made the world, and now it's our choice how to play in it.

[xierxior]

the stations are suposd to be able to be caputred by npc ships, and if you ever get fleet command you can see how many ships the stations have, their toned down i gues to make it easier on poeple the stations do have a load of command crafts about 4/7 they could launch, the problem now is their way to easy to destroy and to hard to capture, the newbies could just buy ots weapons and gain expierence that way, dread the stations have alot of blind spots to you could sit on the side even with your iods at 10 percent and pick away at it, or maybe as you gain more expierence the stations will send larger forces out to kill you like say you have 1200 expierence the station will send 10 fighters and two cruisers, now when you get like 8000 the station sends 5 cruisers 13 fighters, etc so when you get up to like 150000 you would need a fleet to take it out.

[ 02-10-2002, 18:56: Message edited by: xierxior ]

[Epsilon 5]

quote:

---

Notice that fully operational stations are NEVER destroyed or captured by the NPC crafts. This may be a limitation of the AI, but it would be awesome to come home to Galcom HQ and find that the Credians have captured the station! (or at least destroyed it)

---

That's because the AI isn't intelligent enough to know how to deal with stations, and they don't attack in large enough numbers.

[xierxior]

epsilon5, they can destroy stations i had to start a new game i luanched from galcom hq bought shield upgrades etc landed on earth, when they were done upgradeing i returnd to space and i noticd galcom hq was under attack being as ignorant as i am i ignored it i went to mars came back galcom was destroyed er.. so i moved on the lyris and that was also destroyed, npc ships dont have any problems destroying stations, but your right they dont attack in large enough groups one two fighters usely start attacking then they get destroeyd and 1 cruiser jumps in... now maybe if the cruiser and the fighters both attacked at the same time..

[Spider-man]

Dredd, my friend, you have said some interesting things...

quote:

---

Capturing stations is EASY if you know how to do it, and i'm pretty sure you get more EXP for capturing than for destroying (and you get FC&C for captured).

---

That's right, capturing stations and destroying stations is too easy. That's the point of the thread. You get 7500 xpoints for destroying an enemy station. You get 5000 xpoints for capturing it (you get more for each successive capture). You do not get Fleet C&C for capturing a station. You get it at 50,000 experience points.

quote:

---

Increasing the hull integrity or armor integrity for capturing would make capturing them INSANELY easy.

---

It would if the stations remained as ineffective as they are now. I was suggesting that the limits for a station surrendering be changed if, and ONLY IF, the toughness of the stations were increased (by various means discussed elsewhere in the thread).

quote:

---

The game is never "balanced" by things that may be edited with the game through the SC.

---

So you're saying that the SC has no control over game balance. What are you smoking? He's made many changes in the various patches that make things more balanced.

quote:

---

We can easily make the game harder ourselves by not using the exploits. I mean, think about it. If a suggestion for improvement is making stations detect cloaked ships, just DONT CLOAK. It's the same exact result.

---

Dude, cloaking isn't an "exploit." It's something that is available to anyone in the game with the money to buy it. It's too easy to purchase and it's too powerful, making the game unbalanced (although it could be argued that it's not the presence of cloaking, but the lack of strength of the stations). The random weapon is freaking powerful, but it is expensive, hard to acquire, hard to use, AND carries a penalty. And guess what -- it isn't an exploit, it's just a well balanced part of the game. I've never seen the RANDOM weapon fired. Does that make the bad players mad or the good ones happy? NO. It makes me go after the RANDOM weapon with added exuberance.

quote:

---

The BC World is a world, and your to do what you want in it. If you want it to be difficult to take over a station, make it difficult yourself. Leave MP balance issues to the MP testers. If stations die too quickly, lower your IOD to 10-20%. The VCF says that stations are going to have more powerful turrets anyway, so for all of you that want to try to take em without cloaking, you can do it now with a danger of dying. In the end, the SC made the game and made the world, and now it's our choice how to play in it.

---

and one of the most wonderful things about this game and SC's world is that he accepts criticism and listens to suggestions regarding play balance and makes changes. Not always, but many times he does. Others agree that the stations are too weak. You don't think they are. That's fine.

[ 02-10-2002, 19:41: Message edited by: Spider-man ]

[Ryan Eversole]

I think that once there are real people defending those stations,they are not gonna be such easy prey.If you have something slowing you down and diverting your attention,Those station turrets will be able to cut you apart.

Has anyone been fired upon by a station using SDM's? In hundereds of hours in the game,I have never seen a station fire it's missiles.This could also be a factor,especially in MP when the EMD's will not be as effective as in SP. Those SDM missiles will ruin your day if several of them hit you!

[CommanderJohnson]

nonsensical garbage deleted

wtf is the matter with you?!? If you can't frigging quote right, DON'T frigging post. There is a REASON that Preview Post button is there!

[ 02-11-2002, 10:19: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[xierxior]

sc fixed it ugh i think check the version control file he turnd up the pta intensity, now lets hope he didnt over do it, since we were asking for the stations to be near impossible...

I didn't FIX anything. All I did was change the intensity of the shots used by the station because I realized that it was the same strength as a regular ship's turret (which it shouldn't have been.

[ 02-11-2002, 10:21: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[Epsilon 5]

quote:

---

Has anyone been fired upon by a station using SDM's? In hundereds of hours in the game,I have never seen a station fire it's missiles.This could also be a factor,especially in MP when the EMD's will not be as effective as in SP. Those SDM missiles will ruin your day if several of them hit you!

---

Funny I said that not long ago... I've never been shot by a SDM missile, ever. They take 5 seconds to locks, and 90 seconds to reload.

Yeah, and?

Oh and about the VCF I found a "funny" entry

quote:

---

* FIXED: Plugged an exploit in the hand launched grenade logic

---

Hehehe

The only thing funny about it is your failure to provide steps for reproduction. Which just happens to be the most critical information required when reporting a problem.

One of the testers I asked to look into it, discovered that the ONLY way to reproduce it was to rapidly tap the 8/9 key BEFORE it was registered that a grenade was thrown. Your post indicated that it could be reproduced just by continously lobbing grenades - which was false and why most of us couldn't reproduce it.

Which is why they're testers, and you're not.

And please stay on topic

[ 02-11-2002, 12:28: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[xierxior]

funny that got fixed, i reported your ae being unable to reload his mechine gun useing the r key, i dont think they pay much attion to my bug reports because i was haveing alot of stability issues.. no more problems cept i cant get that damed translucent stations to work errr... <-kicks computer

[Roberto]

Its funny you should mention that problem. I managed to get it to work for about 30 seconds last night All I did was attack a ground base, then after I beamed in another person, the buildings I destroyed became transparent, as they were supposed to.

Mind you, as soon as I moved the camera (I was in tacops at the time) the buildings went back to how they were. Im keeping my eyes open though for 'leaked' drivers that may fix it.

Opps sorry, off topic. Lets keep this on topic guys *slaps himself* I should know better than that!

[ 02-11-2002, 08:38: Message edited by: Roberto ]

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by xierxior:

funny that got fixed, i reported your ae being unable to reload his mechine gun useing the r key, i dont think they pay much attion to my bug reports because i was haveing alot of stability issues.. no more problems cept i cant get that damed translucent stations to work errr...

---

I wonder if its because NONE of your posts EVER make ANY sense.

Classic example is this post. There are NO machine guns in BCM.

LAST warning to all of you, to stay on topic

[ 02-11-2002, 12:31: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[Spider-man]

I think that the upgraded-intensity station PTA's and the inability to dock while cloaked will be quite sufficient to answer this issue.

The ability to cloak may still make this a bit too easy, but I can't wait to try it to find out.

It certainly will reduce the chances of a fighter or uncloaked ship taking out a station.

Capturing the stations isn't hard, but they only SOS when they're right at zero just before they explode. It would seem that some bases, knowing that they're outnumbered or about to die, would SOS sooner to prevent their destruction (or at least scramble all their ships/fighters).

Unless they're all run by maniacs like Governor Tarkin. "Evacuate? in our moment of triumph? -- I think you overestimate their chances..."

Anyway, one thing at a time. Cant wait to try it out, thanks for listening, SC!

[ 02-11-2002, 15:29: Message edited by: Spider-man ]

[Guest Hellbinder[CE]]

I finally blasted a station with my Starcarrier. Took me a while. I got so full of myself that I thought it would be a good idea to put the Smack down on the remaining ODS.

An Idea that proved itself *not so good* about 5 seconds after droping out of hyperspace in missle & Laser range of that sucker.

All I can say is I was REAALLLYYY thankful that I had been Wise enough to save the game just before my Jump into oblivion. AS I Have been playing my current game for about 60 or so actual in game hours.

[ 02-11-2002, 16:25: Message edited by: Hellbinder ]

[Guest Grayfox]

eh... i learned the ODS lesson a loooong time ago. now ill wait till its on the other side of the planet, or far enough away not to hurt me before i take out a station.

now ill just cruise in towards a station and light it up while cloaked. when the armor gets around 100 ill start doing single shots and disable my PTA. ill get the station down to 0, itll send out the SOS, then ill board it... long live 0r10|| f1337

[Guest Hellbinder[CE]]

the ODS WAS on the other side of the planet. I was about to jump out of the system to go back home when I glanced over at my Radar and said hmmmmm..... I never tried this before........

[Steve Schacher]

quote:

---

Ok, we are assuming that making them hard to beat is a good idea. What exactly is the benefit of making it so that you need FC&C to beat a station...

---

For me, it's the backstory. If a station was so fragile that a single fighter could destroy, that station would never have gotten built in the first place -- and if it did, it would have been destroyed soon after.

BC:M is a simulation of a universe (albeit a game), but what kind of universe is it where space stations are like boxers with glass jaws who never got KO'd until I showed up?

[Sunanta]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Schacher:

For me, it's the backstory. If a station was so fragile that a single fighter could destroy, that station would never have gotten built in the first place -- and if it did, it would have been destroyed soon after.

BC:M is a simulation of a universe (albeit a game), but what kind of universe is it where space stations are like boxers with glass jaws who never got KO'd until I showed up?

---

Well said.

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Schacher:

BC:M is a simulation of a universe (albeit a game), but what kind of universe is it where space stations are like boxers with glass jaws who never got KO'd until I showed up?

---

Its easy to say that isn't it? What if the stations, say, GHQ had an armor+shield rating that are 5x the current value? Then someone would be b*tching about how hard it is to take out stations and how impossible it is to capture one.

Its all about gameplay balancing and there is a fine line between realism and FUN.

[ 02-12-2002, 16:00: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[weegee_101]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Its easy to say that isn't it? What if the stations, say, GHQ had an armor+shield rating that are 5x the current value? Then someone would be b*tching about how hard it is to take out stations and how impossible it is to capture one.

Its all about gameplay balancing and there is a fine line between realism and FUN.

---

Well said SC. Unfortunately, you make one group of people happy, the others b*tch, and if you even the score, well, then both b*tch. They may be easy to beat for some of us, but they arn't for others, my friend is an example of that. Last night he was playing BCM on my computer and he attempted to destroy a station. I told him to wait for the ODS to get on the other side of the planet. He waited, then attacked, he was torn to shreds. This changed my outlook a bit on the stations. He's gotten pretty good at the game, can do a ground attack amazingly well, but he doesn't seem to be to hot in the space combat field. Maybe soon he'll actually buy the game, rather than use my frickin computer to play it... What I'm trying to say, is, that some people have different tactics, some work, others don't, and us who use one tactic might be able to take out a station, but people who use other equally good tactics, may have a harder time... Think of it from a commanders sense people...

[Steve Schacher]

I'm not *****ing, and I agree with the SC regarding gameplay. I also see it as an issue of single-player vs. multi-player.

In multi-player, what's the point in coordinating attacks if a single ship can do the job? Of course, the answer is for the other side to deploy defenses. But the other side is defending an inherently weak object. If a space-faring race must keep its ships close to home to defend its weak station, then who will go exploring and conquering?

On the other hand, what's the point in single-player for aspiring to Fleet C&C if a single ship can do the job?

I understand that the casual player may just want to blow stuff up, but I got the impression that this game wasn't targeted to the casual player. If the space-simmer wants the ultimate space experience, why not make it harder for a single ship to destroy the station? Wouldn't this be incentive to acquire fleet control before you can throw an armada at a station?

Like I said earlier, I was only coming from the fictional aspect of it all. I'm not disparaging anyone's POV or efforts.

And yeah, it is easy for me to say. I don't have to do it (and neither do you, BTW).