Gay Marriages...legal or not?

[Darkling]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grizzle:

Can we stop with the straw man arguments about pedophilia and incest etc...? Last I heard those things were illegal, and being a homosexual is NOT.

---

So what if they are illegal, what makes the above example that I said illegal? It's the fact that everyone "Knows" that it's wrong for a father to marry his daughter, even if she is 30 and a "consenting adult"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grizzle:

When one of you can come up with a sound legal argument as to why two consenting adults in a long term, committed relationship shouldn't benefit in the same ways other members of society do then have at it.

---

There used to be "sound legal arguments" for the legality of slavery, did it make it right? I don't think so. Just because there is a "sound legal argument" for something doesn't make it right or wrong, morality trancends those types of arguments and just as Slavery was wrong years ago, when it was legal, 2 men getting married is just as wrong as the 30yr old woman who married her dad.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grizzle:

Since I have no personal stake in the issue it really doesn't matter how it turns out. I just think it's sad that so many are comfortable relegating a group of individuals to second class citizen status simply because they fear what they don't understand.

---

I don't have to understand something to know that it's wrong.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grizzle:

As I said in my first post, it's inevitable and the sooner we all get used to the idea the smoother it will go.I've pretty much said all I care to say on the matter. You guys can continue on and have fun with all your negative "what-if" scenarios.

---

Maybe you're right, there is so much apathy in the US, that even though the vast majority of Americans feel as I do, the left could win on this one, simply for making so much noise with it.

[Darkling]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sorren:

Silk, how do you know that these people weren't born that way? You seem convinced otherwise!

---

So what you are saying is that sexual attraction is something that is built into us when we are born?

Does that mean that a pedofile is that way "Natuarally"?

Does that mean that a person into Beastiality is that way "Naturally"?

How about someone who cheats on his wife, or her husband? Is that person just "Natuarally" attracted to someone outside their marriage?

I've been with my wife now for almost 6 years, sure I've seen other women that I've found attractive, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to sleep with them, because all of a sudden I have this sexual desire to do something. God gave us free will, he allows us to experience temptation, but that doesn't mean that we are supposed to give in to it.

My sister used to date this guy Joe, she was with him for 4 years and didn't like where the relationship was going so she broke up with him. He was so broken up over it that he vowed never to date another woman again. A few years ago I saw him with a man that looked like he was going through a sex change. Was this guy born "Gay". I don't buy it. What I see is a guy that was hurt, and decided to choose an alternative lifestyle. The human mind is an amazing thing, and it can "create" for you almost anything you desire, and it can desire even the most preverse and dispicable things, but just because some minds desire something, doesn't mean that we should condone or legalize them.

[Guest $iLk]

Well said and my point exactly.

Looks like some black clergymen don't like the civil rights movement being brought into this.

"When the homosexual compares himself to the black community, he doesn't know what suffering is" - Rev. Clarence James

[James Kerr]

Don't worry, I am not trying to convince you that gay marriage should be legal. It is obvious that no one can...and that's fine. The reality of the matter is that pedophiles aren't asking for equal rights, nor are beastiality doers. I doubt they could even if gay marraige was legal. And yes, I am saying that sexual attraction is built into us when we are born. Its in the DNA...it unlocks when we hit puberty, and it is natural...even if it isn't considered normal. Primates are not naturally monogomus, and humans are in a state of trying to trancendend our natural tendencies-by denying that they exist. That's even true for your hurt friend, who now prefers males...he might be in a state of heterosexual denial, and isn't naturally gay...but that doesn't mean that all gay people are just mentally challenged.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sorren:

Don't worry, I am not trying to convince you that gay marriage should be legal. It is obvious that no one can...and that's fine. The reality of the matter is that pedophiles aren't asking for equal rights, nor are beastiality doers. I doubt they could even if gay marraige was legal. And yes, I am saying that sexual attraction is built into us when we are born. Its in the DNA...it unlocks when we hit puberty, and it is natural...even if it isn't considered normal. Primates are not naturally monogomus, and humans are in a state of trying to trancendend our natural tendencies-by denying that they exist. That's even true for your hurt friend, who now prefers males...he might be in a state of heterosexual denial, and isn't naturally gay...but that doesn't mean that all gay people are just mentally challenged.

---

Homosexuality used to be considered a psychological disorder, it is no longer, gays have ALL the rights that anyone has. Except for getting married. They have the legal right of Civil unions, which give them the same legal rights that ANY married couple would have.

Marriage is for the propagation of offspring, it is a legal and religious way for society to guarantee that children will have the best situation for growing up. It also gives those parents certain advantages etc when they do have children.

Gays can do whatever they want, they can enter into contracts with others, they have freedom of speech, they can have civil Unions. What exactly does NOT allowing them Marriage, because it is between a man and a woman, in order to better raise children, is taking away some right they have?

Getting married is NOT a right.

So what exactly are gays losing by NOT being able to get legally married?

What rights are we taking away from them? How are they being held down? How can they even think it has any relation at ALL to racism?

Gays have civil unions, heterosexuals have marriage. What's the fricking problem?

Gays want to be gay, GREAT, lesbians want to be lesbians? Great, but keep it to yourselves. I don't want to see them marching down the street in their kinky clothes to show the world how proud they are of being homosexual, I don't want to see them having some marriage ceremony, They want a civil union, great, go to the fricking courthouse and get one. But I am tired of getting the homosexual lifestyle pushed down my thraot every time I turn around. Just leave me and the sanctity of marriage alone. You have EVERY legal right that I have.

So back off, or the homosexuals are going to find this whole situation backfire on them big time, and the whole of society will FORCE them back into the closet.

I know a lot of gay couples, and lesbian couples, but they are professional people, who understand what marriage is for, they have thier civil unions and are quite happy with it, and they are scared to death that these militant Homosexuals are going to force them back into the closet, because society is gonna get sick of them.

They can be homosexual, just don't force it down my throat!!

[Guest $iLk]

quote:

---

The reality of the matter is that pedophiles aren't asking for equal rights

---

I guess you've never heard of N.A.M.B.L.A. ?

And if you want to see someone trying to forward the agenda of bestiality: http://www.animalrights.net/articles/2001/000040.html

quote:

---

And yes, I am saying that sexual attraction is built into us when we are born.

---

Then pedophiles, people who practice bestiality, etc. are victims of their own DNA?

I'd like to think that their are certain unhealthy experiences during a persons adolesence, puberty, etc. which lead to adoption of sexual attraction to things like members of the same sex, children, toes, sodomy, etc.

The only good way to solve this argument is to place an equal number of males and females into an environment that does not expose them to the homosexual agenda and see if they act out random attractions or follow nature's course.

quote:

---

Primates are not naturally monogomus, and humans are in a state of trying to trancendend our natural tendencies-by denying that they exist.

---

There's a reason why we are better than other species. How many buildings, etc. have you seen constructed by any other species? And how many homosexual couplings do you see?

quote:

---

That's even true for your hurt friend, who now prefers males...he might be in a state of heterosexual denial, and isn't naturally gay...but that doesn't mean that all gay people are just mentally challenged.

---

So he made a choice. Whether that choice was from relationship trauma, boyhood trauma, or experiences leading up to puberty it is still a choice. Some people are attracted to feet, but I don't think your attraction is a basis for marriage.

Marital benefits are designed to encourage both:

1.) A likely environment for the creation of offspring.

2.) A healthy environment for the raising of offspring.

Only man/woman partnerships meet both goals, and society only benefits from this. Why should society support an abnormal attraction? No one can answer this. It always goes back to "What's wrong with two people loving each other?" which is totally off-subject and immaterial to the basis for marriage in the first place.

People who argue that marriage is simply "two people sharing a lifelong commitment" can't answer why in the hell society would reward two people for sharing a commitment. Thus lending credence to my argument that the true purpose of marriage and marital benefits is the creation and healthy upbringing of offspring.

People just get mad because their fetish, attraction, whatever isn't considered normal. People who are bipolar feel different and there is a stigma attached to it - but they don't need special recognition to get on with their lifes, and their brain patterns are not considered normal. And no one accepts that I don't care what you do in your own home - because it's none of my business. Homosexuals pushing for social acceptance MAKES it my business not to accept it.

[James Kerr]

I can't argue with that. The only thing that got me fired up initially is the comparison between gays and pedophiles...I just don't understand the logic. Gays aren't predatorial...at least not any more than heteros. I do understand it based on sexual attraction, but that seems flimsy to me when I think of rapists (a better comparison,in my view to pedophiles)

[James Kerr]

interesting article, by the way, I hadn't heard of that

[Guest $iLk]

My entire premise wasn't equating gays to predatorial pedophiles, but to draw the comparison to the argument that people are born a certain way.

It is my belief that it is our experiences in life that shape who we are, and a child who might otherwise grow up to be a model heterosexual - if they are abused sexually in adolescence by a male, the preponderance for homosexuality is increased. It doesn't mean that it's normal, it's just another angle towards recognizing that it isn't.

And not all homosexuals have to be abused as a child. I'm sure that there are many ways in which an attraction is formed.... but I will say that the vast majority are unhealthy for the mind in my opinion.

And it's still my belief that attraction isn't a basis for marriage. In feudalist systems, when marriages were arranged - they weren't arranged to hook someone up with their sexual preference. They were arranged to facilitate the two things I mention. Following that, society has understood what marriage has stood for, and I'm certain that our benefits, etc. are holdovers of recognizing that - and not recognizing the sexual act per se'.

Homosexuals are two adult humans acting out consentually. So are the husband and wife who dress up as a farmer and a pig and chase each other around the bedroom. But marriage isn't based on the act - it doesn't recognize your preferences, fetishes, etc. It is society encouraging formation of a healthy family unit in which it is likely that offspring will be born and raised. Recognition of anything else simply hinders and dilutes the true purpose of marriage.

[Guest rtoolooze]

Quote:

"It is my belief that it is our experiences in life that shape who we are"

I think that line best sums it up. It has nothing to do DNA, because if that were the case, that would mean God designed it to happen that way. However, the scriptures plainly tell us that this is something detestable to God.

Ya, how a child is raised and their experiences in life definitly has an impact.

Question: What was one of the main reasons God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? (While their were alot of different kinds of wickedness there, one thing alway's stands in the forefront)

[James Kerr]

sodomy is one of them...they also tried to have sex with the angelic messengers there

[Guest rtoolooze]

Yes, you are correct. And it was the men that were trying to have sex with the angels there.

My point is, if you believe in God and the Bible, then you must believe that God does not approve of homosexuality. The scriptures are clear on this matter.

So its hard to believe that humans are born that way.

[Andergum]

I just received this via email and I have to admit that it got me chuckling.

---------------------------------------------

Subject: Straight from Leviticus-An Analysis from Homer Simpson

Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality, who dispenses

advice to people who call in to her Radio show. On her radio

show recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew,

homosexuality is an abomination, according to Leviticus 18:22,

and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.

The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned

by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's

funny, as well as thought-provoking.

******************************************

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's

Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to

share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When

someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example,

I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to

be an abomination... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other

elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male

and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring

nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to

Mexicans, but not Canadians.

Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as

sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you

think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she

is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24.

The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most

women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it

creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem

is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them.

Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.

Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I

morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the

police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish

is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination

than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God

if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear

reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there

some wiggle- room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including

the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly

forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead

pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting

two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by

wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread

(cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and

blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the

trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -

Lev.24:10-16.

Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family

affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.

20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus

enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am

confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that

God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

-- Homer Simpson

[Guest $iLk]

It's cute, but the New Testament/Covenant makes that argument irrelevant unless you're a Jew or a Muslim.

[James Kerr]

Yes, you are correct. And it was the men that were trying to have sex with the angels there.

My point is, if you believe in God and the Bible, then you must believe that God does not approve of homosexuality. The scriptures are clear on this matter.

So its hard to believe that humans are born that way.

--------------------

yes, I do believe in God and the Bible, but I also believe that God is a lot more loving then men and women are. To me, God made everything the way it is according to His Perfect Plan. I admit that it is hard to accept even for me that people are born that way, but I just don't discount that possibly yet. In time, I'm sure humanity will understand why things are the way they are...I am looking forward to that day.

My Uncle, (who is completely gay) claims to have been born that way, is one of the most loving christians you'll ever meet...I am unsure as to how his belief system has evolved so that he does not condemn himself. It is hard for me to see God codemn him to hell...that's a hard thing for me to think about. I just have to put God's will ahead of my own, and trust that His judgement is better than my own.

I appreciate all the replies I have been getting on this topic, I have learned a lot more about it and have been provoked to thinking about it a lot. I really feel that I know more about it then I ever had. Thanks everyone!

[Guest $iLk]

I would take heart in at least the fact that if he is completely gay as you put it - it is my belief that it is no different than not having sex with children if you are a pedophile, or not having sex with animals if you are turned on by bestiality. If it's a test - so be it. But it is not natural - is not normal - and won't ever be, regardless of what law says.

[James Kerr]

he actually can't have sex anymore--with anything. He is diabetic and now has this strange condition called arachnoiditis, that is deteriorating his lower spine...if his sexual preference is a test, then he's getting a lot of help!