Iraq is now sovereign

[LostInSpace]

quote:

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Originally posted by Enigma:

America isnt the America it used to be.

---

If you mean by that we are no longer nieve, then you are correct.

quote:

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Originally posted by Street:

ONLY REAL crises, we appear to be in(since 9/11) is an administration pushing ideologic rhetoric, which circumnavigates EVERY PRINCIPLE, on which our country was founded.

---

Please, this country was founded in conflict and rhetoric. And with each new conflict there's been enough ideological rhetoric to last a millennium. This is nothing new. American's are by far a lazy bunch at heart and you need alot of rhetoric to stoke up the flames.

On the issue of Bush and his so called decieving us, take a look at this:

How Franklin Roosevelt Lied America Into War

Well there's a twist. He kept telling America we are not going to war meanwhile sowing the seeds for it. While Bush laid the cards on the table for all to see.

"Franklin Roosevelt repeatedly deceived the American people during the period before Pearl Harbor ... He was like the physician who must tell the patient lies for the patient's own good ... The country was overwhelmingly noninterventionist to the very day of Pearl Harbor, and an overt attempt to lead the people into war would have resulted in certain failure and an almost certain ousting of Roosevelt in 1940, with a complete defeat of his ultimate aims."

But

"A president who cannot entrust the people with the truth betrays a certain lack of faith in the basic tenets of democracy. But because the masses are notoriously shortsighted and generally cannot see danger until it is at their throats, our statesmen are forced to deceive them into an awareness of their own long-run interests. This is clearly what Roosevelt had to do, and who shall say that posterity will not thank him for it?"

You can easily replace Roosevelt's name in that with Bush's.

[LostInSpace]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enigma:

America isnt the America it used to be.

---

If you mean by that we are no longer nieve, then you are correct.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Street:

ONLY REAL crises, we appear to be in(since 9/11) is an administration pushing ideologic rhetoric, which circumnavigates EVERY PRINCIPLE, on which our country was founded.

---

Please, this country was founded in conflict and rhetoric. And with each new conflict there's been enough ideological rhetoric to last a millennium. This is nothing new. American's are by far a lazy bunch at heart and you need alot of rhetoric to stoke up the flames.

On the issue of Bush and his so called decieving us, take a look at this:

How Franklin Roosevelt Lied America Into War

Well there's a twist. He kept telling America we are not going to war meanwhile sowing the seeds for it. While Bush laid the cards on the table for all to see.

"Franklin Roosevelt repeatedly deceived the American people during the period before Pearl Harbor ... He was like the physician who must tell the patient lies for the patient's own good ... The country was overwhelmingly noninterventionist to the very day of Pearl Harbor, and an overt attempt to lead the people into war would have resulted in certain failure and an almost certain ousting of Roosevelt in 1940, with a complete defeat of his ultimate aims."

But

"A president who cannot entrust the people with the truth betrays a certain lack of faith in the basic tenets of democracy. But because the masses are notoriously shortsighted and generally cannot see danger until it is at their throats, our statesmen are forced to deceive them into an awareness of their own long-run interests. This is clearly what Roosevelt had to do, and who shall say that posterity will not thank him for it?"

You can easily replace Roosevelt's name in that with Bush's.

[street228]

quote:

---

If you mean by that we are no longer nieve, then you are correct.

---

In this statement, you insult those of us who know the difference betwixt; what is real, and that which has been proportionally INFLATED, in order to manipulate the masses.

quote:

---

Please, this country was founded in conflict and rhetoric. And with each new conflict there's been enough ideological rhetoric to last a millennium. This is nothing new. American's are by far a lazy bunch at heart and you need alot of rhetoric to stoke up the flames.

On the issue of Bush and his so called decieving us, take a look at this:

---

Just because, in hien-sight, ONE writer's historic research, has ONE theory, as to a particular president, manipulating this country, during a time of REAL war, with a REAL threat, has NO valid comparrison, as to what BUSH has done.

And, in addition, TO use THAT as JUSTIFICATION, is completely incomprehensable.

First: The world CONDITIONS; the type of ENEMY; the REALITY of threat; are 180 degrees out of sync. THERE IS NO CORRELATION!!

Second: To ACCEPT, virtually a criminal act, from a PRESENT administration, ONLY ; because, One accepts, the assessment, it was done in the past, is ILLOGICAL and ABSURD.

quote:

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You can easily replace Roosevelt's name in that with Bush's.

---

That statement is a double edged sword, which deserves NO response. If I agree, then I compare bush to a man considered GREAT, by all Americans.

And BUSH simply does NOT deserve such comparrison.

If I disagree; Then, I dismiss Bush's immoral deceptions, and accept him (BUSH) as something other than the lier YOUR LINK has stated Rosevelt

to be.

I do find it amusing, that one of YOU finally ADMITS: BUSH to be a LIER, but now try to justify it.

[street228]

quote:

---

If you mean by that we are no longer nieve, then you are correct.

---

In this statement, you insult those of us who know the difference betwixt; what is real, and that which has been proportionally INFLATED, in order to manipulate the masses.

quote:

---

Please, this country was founded in conflict and rhetoric. And with each new conflict there's been enough ideological rhetoric to last a millennium. This is nothing new. American's are by far a lazy bunch at heart and you need alot of rhetoric to stoke up the flames.

On the issue of Bush and his so called decieving us, take a look at this:

---

Just because, in hien-sight, ONE writer's historic research, has ONE theory, as to a particular president, manipulating this country, during a time of REAL war, with a REAL threat, has NO valid comparrison, as to what BUSH has done.

And, in addition, TO use THAT as JUSTIFICATION, is completely incomprehensable.

First: The world CONDITIONS; the type of ENEMY; the REALITY of threat; are 180 degrees out of sync. THERE IS NO CORRELATION!!

Second: To ACCEPT, virtually a criminal act, from a PRESENT administration, ONLY ; because, One accepts, the assessment, it was done in the past, is ILLOGICAL and ABSURD.

quote:

---

You can easily replace Roosevelt's name in that with Bush's.

---

That statement is a double edged sword, which deserves NO response. If I agree, then I compare bush to a man considered GREAT, by all Americans.

And BUSH simply does NOT deserve such comparrison.

If I disagree; Then, I dismiss Bush's immoral deceptions, and accept him (BUSH) as something other than the lier YOUR LINK has stated Rosevelt

to be.

I do find it amusing, that one of YOU finally ADMITS: BUSH to be a LIER, but now try to justify it.

[Guest]

Bush has NOT lied, This is a WAR on Terrorism.

THere is NOTHING that Bush has said or NOT said that can be construed in ANY WAY SAHPE OR FORM, ot be a lie.

That spin is getting REAL old.

We are now in what is called a preemptive war, you may NOT like it. We know who the terrorist supporting states are, we have told them in no UNCERTAIN terms that if they support terrorists, they will be lumped in with the terrorists and will be treated as such.

There is NO lie there, there is no inuendo, it is the way it has to be in order to keep the United States from having another 911.

We take the war to the enemy.

NO WAR has ever been won by taking the defensive.

ALL wars have been won by taking an offensive and KEEPING it.

This war is NO dofferent....

[Guest]

Bush has NOT lied, This is a WAR on Terrorism.

THere is NOTHING that Bush has said or NOT said that can be construed in ANY WAY SAHPE OR FORM, ot be a lie.

That spin is getting REAL old.

We are now in what is called a preemptive war, you may NOT like it. We know who the terrorist supporting states are, we have told them in no UNCERTAIN terms that if they support terrorists, they will be lumped in with the terrorists and will be treated as such.

There is NO lie there, there is no inuendo, it is the way it has to be in order to keep the United States from having another 911.

We take the war to the enemy.

NO WAR has ever been won by taking the defensive.

ALL wars have been won by taking an offensive and KEEPING it.

This war is NO dofferent....

[LostInSpace]

quote:

---

Originally posted by street:

Just because, in hien-sight, ONE writer's historic research, has ONE theory, as to a particular president,

---

Not one writer's hindsight it's not hien-sight. Ah, public school education. Wonderful ain't it.

Anyway, I already knew about the events that led up to WWII in reference to FDR and everyone of the events in that link is dead on. I used it only as a reference to events. Here's more:

PEARL HARBOR MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES.

quote:

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Originally posted by street:

I do find it amusing, that one of YOU finally ADMITS: BUSH to be a LIER, but now try to justify it.

---

I did? I used that reference to you Bush bashers as a case-in-point. Since you do believe that Bush did lie ,there was good reason for him to do it. "You can" is what I said not "I can".

quote:

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Originally posted by street:

during a time of REAL war, with a REAL threat, has NO valid comparrison, as to what BUSH has done..

---

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but didn't we declare war on Terrorists no matter what country they take refuge in? This is not a real war? This is not a real threat? I'd like to see your definition of war and threat. However, You are right there is no comparison to what Bush has done because there was no doubt about it he was taking this issue of war by the horns and he made no secret of it unlike FDR and his sneaky manuevers to get us into a conflict.

[ 07-01-2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: LostInSpace ]

[LostInSpace]

quote:

---

Originally posted by street:

Just because, in hien-sight, ONE writer's historic research, has ONE theory, as to a particular president,

---

Not one writer's hindsight it's not hien-sight. Ah, public school education. Wonderful ain't it.

Anyway, I already knew about the events that led up to WWII in reference to FDR and everyone of the events in that link is dead on. I used it only as a reference to events. Here's more:

PEARL HARBOR MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES.

quote:

---

Originally posted by street:

I do find it amusing, that one of YOU finally ADMITS: BUSH to be a LIER, but now try to justify it.

---

I did? I used that reference to you Bush bashers as a case-in-point. Since you do believe that Bush did lie ,there was good reason for him to do it. "You can" is what I said not "I can".

quote:

---

Originally posted by street:

during a time of REAL war, with a REAL threat, has NO valid comparrison, as to what BUSH has done..

---

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but didn't we declare war on Terrorists no matter what country they take refuge in? This is not a real war? This is not a real threat? I'd like to see your definition of war and threat. However, You are right there is no comparison to what Bush has done because there was no doubt about it he was taking this issue of war by the horns and he made no secret of it unlike FDR and his sneaky manuevers to get us into a conflict.

[ 07-01-2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: LostInSpace ]

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by street:

quote:

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/me reaches over and grabs bag from street

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LOL I dont mind sharing, but where the hell's the soda!!

---

I'm fresh out. How about a brew instead?

Anyway, we're probably never leaving Iraq. At least not in my lifetime. And I fully plan on living to be a hundred!!

Then again, the Arabs are less tolerant of intruders, invaders and whatnot, so we may be outta there before we get the hell out of Kosovo. But I won't hold my breath.

I can't wait for the next onslaught of abuse we are going to take, once the rest of the world starts accusing us of putting in a puppet govt. in Iraq. Its already being said for Afghanistan.

Anyway, I'm not a card carrying Rebulican but I can't with a clear conscience say that - from what I know - that Bush lied about the war. I just think he is purely uninformed and, well, clueless?

That, you get to blame on the people who work for him.

I fail to see how the liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq can be regarded as a bad thing. At the end of the day - to me - the end justifies the means; whether one likes Bush or not.

Going to war is a sacrifice one makes. No matter whose war it is. And with all conflicts, come casualties. The world is a MUCH better place today for wars like WW1, WW2 and the imaginary (only because it didn't play out like a full fledged war) Cold War. All I can do is thank the brave men and women who get to make these decisions and put others in harm's way. Hell, I'm glad I don't have to live with it.

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by street:

quote:

---

/me reaches over and grabs bag from street

---

LOL I dont mind sharing, but where the hell's the soda!!

---

I'm fresh out. How about a brew instead?

Anyway, we're probably never leaving Iraq. At least not in my lifetime. And I fully plan on living to be a hundred!!

Then again, the Arabs are less tolerant of intruders, invaders and whatnot, so we may be outta there before we get the hell out of Kosovo. But I won't hold my breath.

I can't wait for the next onslaught of abuse we are going to take, once the rest of the world starts accusing us of putting in a puppet govt. in Iraq. Its already being said for Afghanistan.

Anyway, I'm not a card carrying Rebulican but I can't with a clear conscience say that - from what I know - that Bush lied about the war. I just think he is purely uninformed and, well, clueless?

That, you get to blame on the people who work for him.

I fail to see how the liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq can be regarded as a bad thing. At the end of the day - to me - the end justifies the means; whether one likes Bush or not.

Going to war is a sacrifice one makes. No matter whose war it is. And with all conflicts, come casualties. The world is a MUCH better place today for wars like WW1, WW2 and the imaginary (only because it didn't play out like a full fledged war) Cold War. All I can do is thank the brave men and women who get to make these decisions and put others in harm's way. Hell, I'm glad I don't have to live with it.

[LostInSpace]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Going to war is a sacrifice one makes. No matter whose war it is. And with all conflicts, come casualties. The world is a MUCH better place today for wars like WW1, WW2 and the imaginary (only because it didn't play out like a full fledged war) Cold War. All I can do is thank the brave men and women who get to make these decisions and put others in harm's way. Hell, I'm glad I don't have to live with it.

---

That's the point I was bringing across without coming right out and saying it. I wasn't

discrediting FDR about WWII one bit. In fact, if only we had entered that war earlier think of the relief of all the suffering and death of those in the concentration camps and countries had endured because of one tyrant. But, the majority of American citizens just didn't want to get involved in a war. FDR did what he had to do. The rest is history. Bush didn't go to such extremes, he was given the intelligence information and he acted on it immediately and he made his case to us and the world based on that intelligence.

[LostInSpace]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Going to war is a sacrifice one makes. No matter whose war it is. And with all conflicts, come casualties. The world is a MUCH better place today for wars like WW1, WW2 and the imaginary (only because it didn't play out like a full fledged war) Cold War. All I can do is thank the brave men and women who get to make these decisions and put others in harm's way. Hell, I'm glad I don't have to live with it.

---

That's the point I was bringing across without coming right out and saying it. I wasn't

discrediting FDR about WWII one bit. In fact, if only we had entered that war earlier think of the relief of all the suffering and death of those in the concentration camps and countries had endured because of one tyrant. But, the majority of American citizens just didn't want to get involved in a war. FDR did what he had to do. The rest is history. Bush didn't go to such extremes, he was given the intelligence information and he acted on it immediately and he made his case to us and the world based on that intelligence.

[street228]

quote:

---

I'm fresh out. How about a brew instead?

---

I normally dont, drink, but I suppose, I can make an exception. THNX

quote:

---

Anyway, we're probably never leaving Iraq. At least not in my lifetime. And I fully plan on living to be a hundred!!

---

I feel this is probably going to be the case, and further more, I believe it will drag us into more conflict within the region; however, I only hope the conflicts, and our actions, are balanced with intelligent forethought; rather than being purely reactionary.

quote:

---

I can't wait for the next onslaught of abuse we are going to take, once the rest of the world starts accusing us of putting in a puppet govt. in Iraq. Its already being said for Afghanistan.

---

WE ALL know this viewpoint will be the case. CANNOT be avoided, now; HOWEVER, I believe, with IRAQ, there were other ways of accomplishing the fall of SADDAM, without an all out invasion.(but this is only an opinion, based on my PAST military service, and the JOB, I had within the military, at that time.

quote:

---

Anyway, I'm not a card carrying Republican but I can't with a clear conscience say that - from what I know - that Bush lied about the war. I just think he is purely uninformed and, well, clueless?

That, you get to blame on the people who work for him.

---

You MIGHT be right about Him being clueless....but, either way, I see the NECESSITY(based on a well rounded view of MANY actions taken by Bush) for ANOTHER candidate.(too bad the republicans didnt give us another choice)

quote:

---

I fail to see how the liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq can be regarded as a bad thing. At the end of the day - to me - the end justifies the means; whether one likes Bush or not.

---

I see, what we have done, in AFGHANISTAN, as appropriate, in regard to our current involvement.

I see it to be a good thing, to bring democracy to ANY country....using proper methodology.

I cannot condone the philosophy: "the end justifies the means". my personal ideology will NOT allow it. Too many things, I could accomplish that way, but my sleeping, at night, WOULD suffer

quote:

---

All I can do is thank the brave men and women who get to make these decisions and put others in harm's way.

---

I TOO, respect( without reservation) those who serve within the military, and for doing that which they have sworn to uphold.

I too MADE that oath, and REVERE it, AND it's purpose; consequently, THAT OATH, is what FIRED me up, to make the stand, I have made AGAINST the bush administration.(kind of ironic,I know, but TRUE; never-the-less)

[street228]

quote:

---

I'm fresh out. How about a brew instead?

---

I normally dont, drink, but I suppose, I can make an exception. THNX

quote:

---

Anyway, we're probably never leaving Iraq. At least not in my lifetime. And I fully plan on living to be a hundred!!

---

I feel this is probably going to be the case, and further more, I believe it will drag us into more conflict within the region; however, I only hope the conflicts, and our actions, are balanced with intelligent forethought; rather than being purely reactionary.

quote:

---

I can't wait for the next onslaught of abuse we are going to take, once the rest of the world starts accusing us of putting in a puppet govt. in Iraq. Its already being said for Afghanistan.

---

WE ALL know this viewpoint will be the case. CANNOT be avoided, now; HOWEVER, I believe, with IRAQ, there were other ways of accomplishing the fall of SADDAM, without an all out invasion.(but this is only an opinion, based on my PAST military service, and the JOB, I had within the military, at that time.

quote:

---

Anyway, I'm not a card carrying Republican but I can't with a clear conscience say that - from what I know - that Bush lied about the war. I just think he is purely uninformed and, well, clueless?

That, you get to blame on the people who work for him.

---

You MIGHT be right about Him being clueless....but, either way, I see the NECESSITY(based on a well rounded view of MANY actions taken by Bush) for ANOTHER candidate.(too bad the republicans didnt give us another choice)

quote:

---

I fail to see how the liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq can be regarded as a bad thing. At the end of the day - to me - the end justifies the means; whether one likes Bush or not.

---

I see, what we have done, in AFGHANISTAN, as appropriate, in regard to our current involvement.

I see it to be a good thing, to bring democracy to ANY country....using proper methodology.

I cannot condone the philosophy: "the end justifies the means". my personal ideology will NOT allow it. Too many things, I could accomplish that way, but my sleeping, at night, WOULD suffer

quote:

---

All I can do is thank the brave men and women who get to make these decisions and put others in harm's way.

---

I TOO, respect( without reservation) those who serve within the military, and for doing that which they have sworn to uphold.

I too MADE that oath, and REVERE it, AND it's purpose; consequently, THAT OATH, is what FIRED me up, to make the stand, I have made AGAINST the bush administration.(kind of ironic,I know, but TRUE; never-the-less)

[LostInSpace]

Some Iraqies that are fed up with these insurgents.

CNN:

Militant group threatens death for al-Zarqawi

Tuesday, July 6, 2004 Posted: 10:15 PM EDT (0215 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A previously unknown militant group in Iraq is threatening to kill the most-wanted terror suspect in that country: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

The Arabic-language TV network Al-Arabiya said it received a taped statement from an organization that calls itself the Rescue Group warning al-Zarqawi and his followers to leave Iraq or face the consequences.

One masked militant read a statement denouncing the actions by al-Zarqawi and his followers as hurtful to Iraq, particularly the kidnapping of foreigners.

The group has called for the killing of the Jordanian-born al-Zarqawi if he doesn't leave Iraq.

Coalition officials blame al-Zarqawi for dozens of attacks on coalition forces and Iraqi civilians. The United States recently raised the bounty on his head to $25 million.

Al-Zarqawi is also believed to be behind the beheading of two hostages in Iraq, an American and a South Korean.

Other developments

Iraqi security and U.S. forces detained two members of a suspected terrorist group Tuesday in sweeps through a neighborhood in Mosul, northern Iraq, that also uncovered bomb-making materials, machine guns and electronics equipment, a statement from the American-led military coalition said.

[LostInSpace]

Some Iraqies that are fed up with these insurgents.

CNN:

Militant group threatens death for al-Zarqawi

Tuesday, July 6, 2004 Posted: 10:15 PM EDT (0215 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A previously unknown militant group in Iraq is threatening to kill the most-wanted terror suspect in that country: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

The Arabic-language TV network Al-Arabiya said it received a taped statement from an organization that calls itself the Rescue Group warning al-Zarqawi and his followers to leave Iraq or face the consequences.

One masked militant read a statement denouncing the actions by al-Zarqawi and his followers as hurtful to Iraq, particularly the kidnapping of foreigners.

The group has called for the killing of the Jordanian-born al-Zarqawi if he doesn't leave Iraq.

Coalition officials blame al-Zarqawi for dozens of attacks on coalition forces and Iraqi civilians. The United States recently raised the bounty on his head to $25 million.

Al-Zarqawi is also believed to be behind the beheading of two hostages in Iraq, an American and a South Korean.

Other developments

Iraqi security and U.S. forces detained two members of a suspected terrorist group Tuesday in sweeps through a neighborhood in Mosul, northern Iraq, that also uncovered bomb-making materials, machine guns and electronics equipment, a statement from the American-led military coalition said.

[Steve Schacher]

quote:

---

Anyway, I'm not a card carrying Rebulican but I can't with a clear conscience say that - from what I know - that Bush lied about the war. I just think he is purely uninformed and, well, clueless?

---

To make it personal for a moment, you could say that Bush's CIA was like your Take 2. Both organizations treated their leader improperly, and left the leader holding the crap in the end.

[Steve Schacher]

quote:

---

Anyway, I'm not a card carrying Rebulican but I can't with a clear conscience say that - from what I know - that Bush lied about the war. I just think he is purely uninformed and, well, clueless?

---

To make it personal for a moment, you could say that Bush's CIA was like your Take 2. Both organizations treated their leader improperly, and left the leader holding the crap in the end.

[street228]

We have, in effect, created a" civil-war-ready-to-happen" condition within IRAQ....now, by giving iraq, their "Simulated" soveriegnty, we have instigated a condition, where we are supporting 46% of the population, a military advantage to subjugate, the 41% by military rule. "Hell of an example, of PROMOTING a FREE DEMOCRACY".

1).An estimated 46%, of the IRAQI, want to see Saddam pay for his CRIME.

2). An estimated 41%, of the IRAQI,want Saddam set FREE!

3). An estimated 13%, of the IRAQI, could care less what happens to saddam!

4). An estimated 78%, of the IRAQI, just want AMERICANS to GO HOME.

Interesting brew of opinion, among a people(46%) we " SO CALLED" LIBERATED!!. Seems to me, they want us to leave, so they can fight it out....

quote:

---

"I often wonder, just how, a people raised within this country's educational system, can hold onto such reason;.....but then, I turn on the T.V.,, to find, the answer plainly given "

-Quote, from: "The Writing's of SUN" 1974

---

[street228]

We have, in effect, created a" civil-war-ready-to-happen" condition within IRAQ....now, by giving iraq, their "Simulated" soveriegnty, we have instigated a condition, where we are supporting 46% of the population, a military advantage to subjugate, the 41% by military rule. "Hell of an example, of PROMOTING a FREE DEMOCRACY".

1).An estimated 46%, of the IRAQI, want to see Saddam pay for his CRIME.

2). An estimated 41%, of the IRAQI,want Saddam set FREE!

3). An estimated 13%, of the IRAQI, could care less what happens to saddam!

4). An estimated 78%, of the IRAQI, just want AMERICANS to GO HOME.

Interesting brew of opinion, among a people(46%) we " SO CALLED" LIBERATED!!. Seems to me, they want us to leave, so they can fight it out....

quote:

---

"I often wonder, just how, a people raised within this country's educational system, can hold onto such reason;.....but then, I turn on the T.V.,, to find, the answer plainly given "

-Quote, from: "The Writing's of SUN" 1974

---