Terror in the Skies, Again?

[Wolferz]

Danke Schoen anyone?

[Wolferz]

Danke Schoen anyone?

[Steve Schacher]

Just because it didn't happen this time (the terrorist act, not the dry run), doesn't mean that this wasn't one.

Let me ask you this question -- when we (or anybody else, for that matter) plants a "deep cover spy", what does that really mean? I read a story of a spy who went undercover in South America for two years just to build up his cover before infiltrating a ring in the Middle East. Isn't that what we'd expect of our spies when we cry about not having HUMINT, about relying too much on technology?

Well, why wouldn't that not also apply to our enemy's spies? According the last report that I posted, the band was made up of musicians from Detroit and from Syria. Who's to say that the musicians aren't here in a deep cover capacity, establishing themselves in everyday roles, until the time comes to "activate?"

I think the purpose of this story was to get the debate going. On the one hand, we have the government asking all of us to be vigilant. On the other hand, what cannot be allowed to happen is the vilification of a vigilant person should the warning not pan out, or that would squelch any future warnings by vigilant people. As an example, why do you think the flight attendants were afraid to warn the musicians to take their seats during descent instead of letting them roam the plane against the rules?

[Steve Schacher]

Just because it didn't happen this time (the terrorist act, not the dry run), doesn't mean that this wasn't one.

Let me ask you this question -- when we (or anybody else, for that matter) plants a "deep cover spy", what does that really mean? I read a story of a spy who went undercover in South America for two years just to build up his cover before infiltrating a ring in the Middle East. Isn't that what we'd expect of our spies when we cry about not having HUMINT, about relying too much on technology?

Well, why wouldn't that not also apply to our enemy's spies? According the last report that I posted, the band was made up of musicians from Detroit and from Syria. Who's to say that the musicians aren't here in a deep cover capacity, establishing themselves in everyday roles, until the time comes to "activate?"

I think the purpose of this story was to get the debate going. On the one hand, we have the government asking all of us to be vigilant. On the other hand, what cannot be allowed to happen is the vilification of a vigilant person should the warning not pan out, or that would squelch any future warnings by vigilant people. As an example, why do you think the flight attendants were afraid to warn the musicians to take their seats during descent instead of letting them roam the plane against the rules?

[Steve Schacher]

From Michelle Malkin's Blog.

quote:

---

A BAND OF 14 ILLEGAL ALIEN SYRIANS?!

By Michelle Malkin ·

July 23, 2004 01:47 AM

WNBC investigative reporter

Scott Weinberger

reported on Joe Scarborough's MSNBC show tonight that the 14 Syrians on

Northwest Flight 327

ALL had expired visas. He said his sources told him that law enforcement officials xeroxed the men's paperwork without looking at the dates. The visas had expired nearly a month earlier, according to Weinberger.

This does not give me much confidence in the background checks that the Joint Terrorism Task Force, FBI, and LAPD may or may not have conducted on the men before letting them walk away. Would you trust the terrorism investigation of officials who apparently neglected to verify whether these men--coming from a designated state sponsor of terrorism, flying on a day on which Department of Homeland Security officials had issued a warning about a possible terrorist attack--WERE EVEN IN THE COUNTRY LEGALLY?!?!?!

If Weinberger's reporting is accurate, I won't be surprised. The 14 men join a club of

at least

an estimated

2.3 million illegal visa overstayers

currently living in the U.S. today. Until September 11, 2001, the Visa Overstayers Club also included "student" Hani Hanjour and "businessmen and tourist" Nawaf al-Hazmi and Satam al-Suqami.

Flashback

: On Scarborough Country (July 19, 2004), former FBI chief of counterterrorism, Steve Pomerantz, commented on the FBI's investigation of the Syrian band members:

I am struck by the fact that the FBI did turn out. There seemed to be an appropriate and proper response, and they did what sounds to me like a very thorough, exhaustive investigation, during the course of which nobody was charged with a crime, nobody was even detained, which tells me that

these people were here legally, legitimately, had official and appropriate and proper documentation

, because, as you know, for the last few years in particular, the FBI has not been reluctant to detain people who are here in any way illegally, whether they're out of status, or whether they have false documentation. That didn't happen in this case.

Update: Avert your eyes if you are allergic, but some immigration law wonkery is necessary here. Some readers have technical questions for Scott Weinberger. For example:

[A]s you must surely know, just because a person's visa has expired doesn't mean they are "out of status." A person is deemed to have "overstayed" when they have exceeded the time allowed him or her to stay in the U.S. by DHS/ICE. This time is put on the alien's I-94 card when they enter the U.S. In fact, if the Syrian musicians entered the U.S. on P-1 visas, as I suspect, the visa, i.e., the stamp in their passport issued by the U.S. Consulate, would have expired the instant it was used. Syrian P-1 visas can only be issued for a single entry...And even if they entered with B-2 visas, which can be issued to Syrians with more than one entry, just because the visa itself has expired doesn't mean they've overstayed. To determine whether the Syrians overstayed we'd have to see their I-94 cards.

Right. In lay parlance, partly because of journalists and politicians trying to avoid bureaucratese, "overstaying a visa" is commonly used interchangeably with overstaying the authorized "duration of stay." I assumed that Weinberger meant the latter and have put in a call asking him for clarification. (See more here for a tutorial on what a visa is and how the visa expiration date differs from the duration of stay date or status determined by DHS at port of entry.)

Update: Still no word back from Scott Weinberger. Meantime, these comments from reader BorderAgent are on point:

Musicians typically have a P-1 visa and without a doubt a Syrian, entering on a P-1 visa would only be allowed a single entry on that visa and the visa would then expire immediately upon entry. The Visa only allows them to enter, while the I-94 allows them to stay here for the duration, whatever that might be, of the I-94.

As Michelle said earlier, in lay parlance, "overstaying a visa" could also mean having an expired I-94. But even then it would not necessarily make them an overstay. You see, you can actually apply for an extension of your I-94 while you are here at an inland office with BCIS. And the funny thing is, when you apply for an extension you are legally allowed to stay, even if you documents expire, until you receive a response, which generally takes longer than 45 days. So basically, you can automatically extend your stay for up to 45 days if you merely receive a peice of paper saying that you are waiting for a response.

Hope that helps clear some things up.

A good rule of thumb when dealing with the old INS, now the DHS, is to remember that we have the most strict laws of any agency but have a waiver for everything.

Yeah, that last sentence pretty much sums up our entire immigration (non) policy: A waiver for everything.

Update: From KFI's Eric Leonard: Air Marshals Say Passenger Overreacted. Excerpt:

FBI agents met the plane when it landed in Los Angeles and the men were questioned, and Los Angeles field office spokeswoman Cathy Viray said itÔÇÖs significant the alarm on the flight came from a passenger.

ÔÇ£We have to take all calls seriously, but the passenger was worried, not the flight crew or the federal air marshals,ÔÇØ she said. ÔÇ£The complaint did not stem from the flight crew.ÔÇØ

Too bad the flight crew has been barred from confirming this.

---

[Steve Schacher]

From Michelle Malkin's Blog.

quote:

---

A BAND OF 14 ILLEGAL ALIEN SYRIANS?!

By Michelle Malkin ·

July 23, 2004 01:47 AM

WNBC investigative reporter

Scott Weinberger

reported on Joe Scarborough's MSNBC show tonight that the 14 Syrians on

Northwest Flight 327

ALL had expired visas. He said his sources told him that law enforcement officials xeroxed the men's paperwork without looking at the dates. The visas had expired nearly a month earlier, according to Weinberger.

This does not give me much confidence in the background checks that the Joint Terrorism Task Force, FBI, and LAPD may or may not have conducted on the men before letting them walk away. Would you trust the terrorism investigation of officials who apparently neglected to verify whether these men--coming from a designated state sponsor of terrorism, flying on a day on which Department of Homeland Security officials had issued a warning about a possible terrorist attack--WERE EVEN IN THE COUNTRY LEGALLY?!?!?!

If Weinberger's reporting is accurate, I won't be surprised. The 14 men join a club of

at least

an estimated

2.3 million illegal visa overstayers

currently living in the U.S. today. Until September 11, 2001, the Visa Overstayers Club also included "student" Hani Hanjour and "businessmen and tourist" Nawaf al-Hazmi and Satam al-Suqami.

Flashback

: On Scarborough Country (July 19, 2004), former FBI chief of counterterrorism, Steve Pomerantz, commented on the FBI's investigation of the Syrian band members:

I am struck by the fact that the FBI did turn out. There seemed to be an appropriate and proper response, and they did what sounds to me like a very thorough, exhaustive investigation, during the course of which nobody was charged with a crime, nobody was even detained, which tells me that

these people were here legally, legitimately, had official and appropriate and proper documentation

, because, as you know, for the last few years in particular, the FBI has not been reluctant to detain people who are here in any way illegally, whether they're out of status, or whether they have false documentation. That didn't happen in this case.

Update: Avert your eyes if you are allergic, but some immigration law wonkery is necessary here. Some readers have technical questions for Scott Weinberger. For example:

[A]s you must surely know, just because a person's visa has expired doesn't mean they are "out of status." A person is deemed to have "overstayed" when they have exceeded the time allowed him or her to stay in the U.S. by DHS/ICE. This time is put on the alien's I-94 card when they enter the U.S. In fact, if the Syrian musicians entered the U.S. on P-1 visas, as I suspect, the visa, i.e., the stamp in their passport issued by the U.S. Consulate, would have expired the instant it was used. Syrian P-1 visas can only be issued for a single entry...And even if they entered with B-2 visas, which can be issued to Syrians with more than one entry, just because the visa itself has expired doesn't mean they've overstayed. To determine whether the Syrians overstayed we'd have to see their I-94 cards.

Right. In lay parlance, partly because of journalists and politicians trying to avoid bureaucratese, "overstaying a visa" is commonly used interchangeably with overstaying the authorized "duration of stay." I assumed that Weinberger meant the latter and have put in a call asking him for clarification. (See more here for a tutorial on what a visa is and how the visa expiration date differs from the duration of stay date or status determined by DHS at port of entry.)

Update: Still no word back from Scott Weinberger. Meantime, these comments from reader BorderAgent are on point:

Musicians typically have a P-1 visa and without a doubt a Syrian, entering on a P-1 visa would only be allowed a single entry on that visa and the visa would then expire immediately upon entry. The Visa only allows them to enter, while the I-94 allows them to stay here for the duration, whatever that might be, of the I-94.

As Michelle said earlier, in lay parlance, "overstaying a visa" could also mean having an expired I-94. But even then it would not necessarily make them an overstay. You see, you can actually apply for an extension of your I-94 while you are here at an inland office with BCIS. And the funny thing is, when you apply for an extension you are legally allowed to stay, even if you documents expire, until you receive a response, which generally takes longer than 45 days. So basically, you can automatically extend your stay for up to 45 days if you merely receive a peice of paper saying that you are waiting for a response.

Hope that helps clear some things up.

A good rule of thumb when dealing with the old INS, now the DHS, is to remember that we have the most strict laws of any agency but have a waiver for everything.

Yeah, that last sentence pretty much sums up our entire immigration (non) policy: A waiver for everything.

Update: From KFI's Eric Leonard: Air Marshals Say Passenger Overreacted. Excerpt:

FBI agents met the plane when it landed in Los Angeles and the men were questioned, and Los Angeles field office spokeswoman Cathy Viray said itÔÇÖs significant the alarm on the flight came from a passenger.

ÔÇ£We have to take all calls seriously, but the passenger was worried, not the flight crew or the federal air marshals,ÔÇØ she said. ÔÇ£The complaint did not stem from the flight crew.ÔÇØ

Too bad the flight crew has been barred from confirming this.

---

[Guest]

Oh, have I got some fun stuff for you guys...LOL

Syrian music star sings praise of suicide bombers

quote:

---

By Audrey Hudson

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The Syrian singer of a band that was detained by the FBI's Terrorism Task Force for suspicious activity during a recent flight to Los Angeles has written about the "glorification" of suicide bombers to liberate Palestine.

Singer Nour Mehana's latest album includes the song "Um El Shaheed," or "Mother of a Martyr," said Aluma Dankowitz of the Middle East Media Research Institute.

The song tells the story of a woman who mourned her son's death until she realized that "he died for a good cause and he should be glorified for what he did," said Miss Dankowitz, who translated the song for The Washington Times.

Mr. Mehana, widely known as the Syrian Wayne Newton, sings to the mother that her son's goals are heroic and she should be happy he is dead.

"The song opens with the depiction of a mother crying over her son. He has said goodbye to his friends and family and is not going to come back. He went with a weapon in one palm and his heart in another palm and he's not going to come back," Miss Dankowitz said. "He went to fight to free Palestine, Golan Heights and South Lebanon."

The song ends with chants of "Allahu akbar," or "God is great," a common Muslim expression. Those were the last words shouted by a September 11 hijacker before the plane crashed into a Pennsylvania field and have been the last words of many suicide bombers in Israel.

Mr. Mehana's 14 Syrian band members were detained by officials June 29 upon deplaning Northwest Flight 327 from Detroit to Los Angeles, for acting in a suspicious manner that concerned the flight crew and air marshals on board.

Meanwhile, federal officials were summoned to Capitol Hill yesterday to brief Senate and House Judiciary Committee staff in response to reports of the incident, and the Federal Air Marshals Association requested a meeting with top officials in the Homeland Security Department.

Passenger Annie Jacobsen reported earlier this month in Women's Wall Street that the Syrians consecutively filed in and out of restrooms, stood nearly the entire flight in congregations of two and three, carried a McDonald's bag into the lavatory and passed it to another Syrian, and carried cameras and cellular phones to the restroom.

Just before landing, seven of the men jumped up in unison and went inside the restrooms. Upon returning to his seat, one man mouthed the word "no" as he ran his finger across his throat.

The men were flying on a one-way ticket via Northwest, and returning on a one-way ticket aboard JetBlue.

An Immigration Customs Enforcement official said Monday the men had overstayed their visit and should have returned on June 10, but a Homeland Security Department spokesman said they learned late Tuesday that an extension had been granted through July 15.

Officials called to Capitol Hill included Randy Beardsworth, director of Homeland Security's Operations, Border and Transportation Security Office; Thomas Quinn, director of the Federal Air Marshals Service; and Willie Hulon, deputy assistant director of the FBI's counterterrorism division.

One staffer who attended the briefing said officials were "very cagey" on details, which he described as "very frustrating."

However, the officials confirmed air marshals found the activities unusual and suspicious.

"They are trying to have it both ways and say yes, our people are smart enough to see something and that's why they called for authorities, but they deny it was as scary as it has been portrayed," the staffer said.

Homeland Security officials say they have no intelligence that terrorists are conducting dry runs on airplanes.

Federal air marshals and pilots also back Mrs. Jacobsen's account as similar to other incidents, and say terrorists constantly are probing security.

The Federal Air Marshals Association yesterday requested a meeting with top Homeland Security officials to discuss the issue of terrorist dry runs.

"A test run for terrorism is not to be ignored," said Bob Flamm, director of the association. "When a citizen stands up and speaks out in regard to air safety, it is the responsibility of law-enforcement officials involved to seek out the truth and not bury it."

---

Whoopsidaisy.....

Michelle Malkin

quote:

---

THEY DIDN'T BOTHER TO CHECK (!!!)

By Michelle Malkin ┬À July 25, 2004 06:30 AM

In an article published late Friday night, "Misbehaving Syrians Carried Expired Visas (registration required)," the Dallas Morning News confirmed that 13 members of Nour Mehana had expired visas at the time of their June 29 flight on Northwest 327:

Thirteen Syrian musicians whose behavior aboard a June flight stirred suspicions and talks of "dry runs" entered the country lawfully on artist visas, but immigration officials said those passes expired more than two weeks before they boarded the flight from Detroit to Los Angeles.

Some passengers and air marshals aboard the flight raised concerns about the men's behavior, and officials from the FBI, Transportation Security Administration, Los Angeles Police Department and federal air marshals met the plane on its arrival. But the expired visas were not detected until an immigration check was run after the men were released, an Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokesman said Friday.

As I've discussed previously, the reporting is a bit murky on the technical difference between visa expiration date and duration of stay, but the strong implication seems to me to be that they had indeed fallen "out of status." Translation: They were here illegally. The key point here is that nobody bothered to check. An immigration official stated that those questioning the band members did not include an Immigration and Customs Enforcement official and that "checks on the status of the visas should have been conducted at the time."

Have we learned nothing from 9/11?!?

The band members had artist P-3 visas, not P-1 visas, as some of my readers speculated earlier.

Note also that the Dallas Morning News reports, contrary to the assertions of unnamed air marshals' sources quoted by KFI's Eric Leonard, that it was not just Annie Jacobsen and her husband who raised concerns about the Syrians' behavior, but both "passengers and air marshals" who did.

Meanwhile, the London papers pick up the story here and here.

Note especially this paragraph in the Telegraph's article:

Concert promoters confirmed that some of his band had flown in on Northwest 327 but that the members did not remember anything unusual about the flight. Beyond that, the promoter said, he had been told by Homeland Security not to talk to the press.

I had wondered why not one of the Syrians had come forward to give their account of what happened and to explain their behavior. Now, we learn that our Department of Homeland Security is pressuring their promoter not to talk.

Now, we know that immigration officials didn't bother to check their immigration status.

What else don't they want us to know?

---

Interesting......

[Guest]

Oh, have I got some fun stuff for you guys...LOL

Syrian music star sings praise of suicide bombers

quote:

---

By Audrey Hudson

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The Syrian singer of a band that was detained by the FBI's Terrorism Task Force for suspicious activity during a recent flight to Los Angeles has written about the "glorification" of suicide bombers to liberate Palestine.

Singer Nour Mehana's latest album includes the song "Um El Shaheed," or "Mother of a Martyr," said Aluma Dankowitz of the Middle East Media Research Institute.

The song tells the story of a woman who mourned her son's death until she realized that "he died for a good cause and he should be glorified for what he did," said Miss Dankowitz, who translated the song for The Washington Times.

Mr. Mehana, widely known as the Syrian Wayne Newton, sings to the mother that her son's goals are heroic and she should be happy he is dead.

"The song opens with the depiction of a mother crying over her son. He has said goodbye to his friends and family and is not going to come back. He went with a weapon in one palm and his heart in another palm and he's not going to come back," Miss Dankowitz said. "He went to fight to free Palestine, Golan Heights and South Lebanon."

The song ends with chants of "Allahu akbar," or "God is great," a common Muslim expression. Those were the last words shouted by a September 11 hijacker before the plane crashed into a Pennsylvania field and have been the last words of many suicide bombers in Israel.

Mr. Mehana's 14 Syrian band members were detained by officials June 29 upon deplaning Northwest Flight 327 from Detroit to Los Angeles, for acting in a suspicious manner that concerned the flight crew and air marshals on board.

Meanwhile, federal officials were summoned to Capitol Hill yesterday to brief Senate and House Judiciary Committee staff in response to reports of the incident, and the Federal Air Marshals Association requested a meeting with top officials in the Homeland Security Department.

Passenger Annie Jacobsen reported earlier this month in Women's Wall Street that the Syrians consecutively filed in and out of restrooms, stood nearly the entire flight in congregations of two and three, carried a McDonald's bag into the lavatory and passed it to another Syrian, and carried cameras and cellular phones to the restroom.

Just before landing, seven of the men jumped up in unison and went inside the restrooms. Upon returning to his seat, one man mouthed the word "no" as he ran his finger across his throat.

The men were flying on a one-way ticket via Northwest, and returning on a one-way ticket aboard JetBlue.

An Immigration Customs Enforcement official said Monday the men had overstayed their visit and should have returned on June 10, but a Homeland Security Department spokesman said they learned late Tuesday that an extension had been granted through July 15.

Officials called to Capitol Hill included Randy Beardsworth, director of Homeland Security's Operations, Border and Transportation Security Office; Thomas Quinn, director of the Federal Air Marshals Service; and Willie Hulon, deputy assistant director of the FBI's counterterrorism division.

One staffer who attended the briefing said officials were "very cagey" on details, which he described as "very frustrating."

However, the officials confirmed air marshals found the activities unusual and suspicious.

"They are trying to have it both ways and say yes, our people are smart enough to see something and that's why they called for authorities, but they deny it was as scary as it has been portrayed," the staffer said.

Homeland Security officials say they have no intelligence that terrorists are conducting dry runs on airplanes.

Federal air marshals and pilots also back Mrs. Jacobsen's account as similar to other incidents, and say terrorists constantly are probing security.

The Federal Air Marshals Association yesterday requested a meeting with top Homeland Security officials to discuss the issue of terrorist dry runs.

"A test run for terrorism is not to be ignored," said Bob Flamm, director of the association. "When a citizen stands up and speaks out in regard to air safety, it is the responsibility of law-enforcement officials involved to seek out the truth and not bury it."

---

Whoopsidaisy.....

Michelle Malkin

quote:

---

THEY DIDN'T BOTHER TO CHECK (!!!)

By Michelle Malkin ┬À July 25, 2004 06:30 AM

In an article published late Friday night, "Misbehaving Syrians Carried Expired Visas (registration required)," the Dallas Morning News confirmed that 13 members of Nour Mehana had expired visas at the time of their June 29 flight on Northwest 327:

Thirteen Syrian musicians whose behavior aboard a June flight stirred suspicions and talks of "dry runs" entered the country lawfully on artist visas, but immigration officials said those passes expired more than two weeks before they boarded the flight from Detroit to Los Angeles.

Some passengers and air marshals aboard the flight raised concerns about the men's behavior, and officials from the FBI, Transportation Security Administration, Los Angeles Police Department and federal air marshals met the plane on its arrival. But the expired visas were not detected until an immigration check was run after the men were released, an Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokesman said Friday.

As I've discussed previously, the reporting is a bit murky on the technical difference between visa expiration date and duration of stay, but the strong implication seems to me to be that they had indeed fallen "out of status." Translation: They were here illegally. The key point here is that nobody bothered to check. An immigration official stated that those questioning the band members did not include an Immigration and Customs Enforcement official and that "checks on the status of the visas should have been conducted at the time."

Have we learned nothing from 9/11?!?

The band members had artist P-3 visas, not P-1 visas, as some of my readers speculated earlier.

Note also that the Dallas Morning News reports, contrary to the assertions of unnamed air marshals' sources quoted by KFI's Eric Leonard, that it was not just Annie Jacobsen and her husband who raised concerns about the Syrians' behavior, but both "passengers and air marshals" who did.

Meanwhile, the London papers pick up the story here and here.

Note especially this paragraph in the Telegraph's article:

Concert promoters confirmed that some of his band had flown in on Northwest 327 but that the members did not remember anything unusual about the flight. Beyond that, the promoter said, he had been told by Homeland Security not to talk to the press.

I had wondered why not one of the Syrians had come forward to give their account of what happened and to explain their behavior. Now, we learn that our Department of Homeland Security is pressuring their promoter not to talk.

Now, we know that immigration officials didn't bother to check their immigration status.

What else don't they want us to know?

---

Interesting......

[Soback]

What's even more interesting is once the facts and details come out you don't see Takvah and others here crying about them now.

[Soback]

What's even more interesting is once the facts and details come out you don't see Takvah and others here crying about them now.

[Takvah]

Hey man... I'm still here and I got the facts. First of all Michelle Malkin is a LOONEY TUNE piece of trash, she isn't a republican she's an anti-american fruit loop... but she's right terrorists are allowed to work unmolested in this country if they choose to. That's HOMELAND SECURITY for ya.

Now, it seems that this airline was undersiege by the GOD DAMN SYRIAN WAYNE NEWTON! What a bunch of COWARDS. When did America become so damn COMPLACENT?!

Anyway, as Ms. Malkin keenly and appropriately points out, the failure of this ADMINISTRATION to protect anything but their interests (which obviously doesn't include the public which I might point out INCLUDES YOU) is tantamount to DERELICTION of DUTY. It's been near THREE years and NOW (after the 9/11 report which he didn't even want DONE) Bush wants to start changing things. He calls himself a Republican?! I thought we were pick ourselves up by the bootstraps tough... this guy isn't tough... not on terrorists. The only thing that Bush has done is diminish our civil rights here at home while continuing to IGNORE the threats that HE allows to enter this country EVERY SINGLE DAY. Investigate the money spent on Homeland Security, investigate the fact that our borders and our ports are OPEN DOORS. I DARE YOU! The President doesn't seem to handle anything according to you guys... apparently he's just a figurehead... but where is his LEADERSHIP on the issues of our security? He attacked Iraq... a misreable failure and NOW... he has all of you crapping your pants over The Syrian Wayne Newton.

You should all go into hiding... panzies.

READ ABOUT THE TERRORIST WAYNE NEWTON OF SYRIA... *shivers*

And what this author so rightly points out and what I pointed out is that PEOPLE ARE so ready to just go down in a fiery ball of death. If this is the nation's mentality then no wonder why Bush has all of you so freaked out. Who will protect us... KERRY? That's what you guys like to say... NOPE... neither Bush nor Kerry will protect you WHEN IT COUNTS... when you're on that plane possibly facing certain death. That's when it's on ALL OF US to PROTECT OURSELVES and that's what FREEDOM IS.

Go back to sleep Soback... or tucking your head between your legs to kiss your a$$ goodbye. *snickers*

[ 07-30-2004, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Takvah ]

[Takvah]

Hey man... I'm still here and I got the facts. First of all Michelle Malkin is a LOONEY TUNE piece of trash, she isn't a republican she's an anti-american fruit loop... but she's right terrorists are allowed to work unmolested in this country if they choose to. That's HOMELAND SECURITY for ya.

Now, it seems that this airline was undersiege by the GOD DAMN SYRIAN WAYNE NEWTON! What a bunch of COWARDS. When did America become so damn COMPLACENT?!

Anyway, as Ms. Malkin keenly and appropriately points out, the failure of this ADMINISTRATION to protect anything but their interests (which obviously doesn't include the public which I might point out INCLUDES YOU) is tantamount to DERELICTION of DUTY. It's been near THREE years and NOW (after the 9/11 report which he didn't even want DONE) Bush wants to start changing things. He calls himself a Republican?! I thought we were pick ourselves up by the bootstraps tough... this guy isn't tough... not on terrorists. The only thing that Bush has done is diminish our civil rights here at home while continuing to IGNORE the threats that HE allows to enter this country EVERY SINGLE DAY. Investigate the money spent on Homeland Security, investigate the fact that our borders and our ports are OPEN DOORS. I DARE YOU! The President doesn't seem to handle anything according to you guys... apparently he's just a figurehead... but where is his LEADERSHIP on the issues of our security? He attacked Iraq... a misreable failure and NOW... he has all of you crapping your pants over The Syrian Wayne Newton.

You should all go into hiding... panzies.

READ ABOUT THE TERRORIST WAYNE NEWTON OF SYRIA... *shivers*

And what this author so rightly points out and what I pointed out is that PEOPLE ARE so ready to just go down in a fiery ball of death. If this is the nation's mentality then no wonder why Bush has all of you so freaked out. Who will protect us... KERRY? That's what you guys like to say... NOPE... neither Bush nor Kerry will protect you WHEN IT COUNTS... when you're on that plane possibly facing certain death. That's when it's on ALL OF US to PROTECT OURSELVES and that's what FREEDOM IS.

Go back to sleep Soback... or tucking your head between your legs to kiss your a$$ goodbye. *snickers*

[ 07-30-2004, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Takvah ]

[street228]

LOL....what did ya REALLY expect????

quote:

---

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/BOBUSH.jpg

---

Bush is flashing the Horned Owl symbol with his right hand,

it is Satanic. Take note of the look

on his face too.

[street228]

LOL....what did ya REALLY expect????

quote:

---

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/BOBUSH.jpg

---

Bush is flashing the Horned Owl symbol with his right hand,

it is Satanic. Take note of the look

on his face too.

[Soback]

Takvah, that's my whole point. This administration, any administration doesn't need to protect every single citizen. It's not their job, their job is the big picture. It's the individuals RIGHT to protect themselfs, but the socialists and liberals screwed up this government and the public so much with political correctness that you can't protect yourself because if you do, you'll be sued, thrown in jail and whoever attacked you will be living in your house. Don't you see, in the 40's to the 60's none of this would have happened. People would have protected themselfs and probably killed the terrorists right there on those planes. Now, if your house is getting robbed, you have to call the cops, and when they show up 20 minutes later they will make a report about your raped wife, dead kid and take you away in handcuffs for trying to stop a guy with the baseball batt. When it should be if your house is getting robbed, I call the coroners office to clean up. Wake up, it's your life, you should protect yourself, you are not a baby, you are an adult, make decissions like one. Why would you depend on the government for the most simplest of things?

[Soback]

Takvah, that's my whole point. This administration, any administration doesn't need to protect every single citizen. It's not their job, their job is the big picture. It's the individuals RIGHT to protect themselfs, but the socialists and liberals screwed up this government and the public so much with political correctness that you can't protect yourself because if you do, you'll be sued, thrown in jail and whoever attacked you will be living in your house. Don't you see, in the 40's to the 60's none of this would have happened. People would have protected themselfs and probably killed the terrorists right there on those planes. Now, if your house is getting robbed, you have to call the cops, and when they show up 20 minutes later they will make a report about your raped wife, dead kid and take you away in handcuffs for trying to stop a guy with the baseball batt. When it should be if your house is getting robbed, I call the coroners office to clean up. Wake up, it's your life, you should protect yourself, you are not a baby, you are an adult, make decissions like one. Why would you depend on the government for the most simplest of things?

[Soback]

By the way Takvah. Now you are contradicting yourself. You were saying that how horrible it is that the person on the airliner panicked, in fact here's your quote:

"I do not find this example, reason enough to doubt proper security, nor do I see this as an example which supports, need for further infringements upon individual rights.

I see it, for what it REALLY is. A woman, who has been caught up in the BUSH FEAR campaign, and DUE to CULTURAL seperation, was likely suffering from ACUTE PARANOIA."

Here's your whole first statement in this thread:

"It is a sad thing, about Americans, who are surrounded by ANY peoples, who are speaking in an unfamiliar lanquage.There is PARANOIA. Especially with, the cultural differences present. They feel they are on the outside, and their imagination runs wild.

I have seen this happen, with American tourist, on buses in south america, when unfamiliar things, like an unscheduled bus stop happened, in remote location. I could hear the tourist mumbling, back and forth,(thinking, the bus was being hi-jacked, by an angry man in the back) their paranoia getting stronger, by the moment, as the bus driver continued telling a man in the rear of the bus(in an odd dialect of spanish), all about his nephew's up coming wedding, being postponed. And, as he explained to the man, in the rear, he was simply waiting for the radiator to cool down a bit, before moving along.

If that lady could have understood the conversation; the EYE contact, and the NO, being said when the one man returned from the lavatory, would not have been so threatening.

Those men's, so called co-ordinated effort, to stand, rather than stay seated, would have probably lost it's feeling of impending doom, as well. If she could have understood their conversation, as to how their ass probably hurt from all the sitting, or some such.

I do not find this example, reason enough to doubt proper security, nor do I see this as an example which supports, need for further infringements upon individual rights.

I see it, for what it REALLY is. A woman, who has been caught up in the BUSH FEAR campaign, and DUE to CULTURAL seperation, was likely suffering from ACUTE PARANOIA."

And this is your quote NOW:

"That's HOMELAND SECURITY for ya.

Now, it seems that this airline was undersiege by the GOD DAMN SYRIAN WAYNE NEWTON! What a bunch of COWARDS. When did America become so damn COMPLACENT?! "

Compare the first and the last. ROFL. Good job "honey",first the woman is freaking out for nothing it's all in her head, now DAMN look who was on board, where's homeland security, I thought that you wanted this woman to calm down and be more complacent. Now you are saying that Americans are too complacent, who offers flip flops and who offers tax breaks? ROFL.

[Soback]

By the way Takvah. Now you are contradicting yourself. You were saying that how horrible it is that the person on the airliner panicked, in fact here's your quote:

"I do not find this example, reason enough to doubt proper security, nor do I see this as an example which supports, need for further infringements upon individual rights.

I see it, for what it REALLY is. A woman, who has been caught up in the BUSH FEAR campaign, and DUE to CULTURAL seperation, was likely suffering from ACUTE PARANOIA."

Here's your whole first statement in this thread:

"It is a sad thing, about Americans, who are surrounded by ANY peoples, who are speaking in an unfamiliar lanquage.There is PARANOIA. Especially with, the cultural differences present. They feel they are on the outside, and their imagination runs wild.

I have seen this happen, with American tourist, on buses in south america, when unfamiliar things, like an unscheduled bus stop happened, in remote location. I could hear the tourist mumbling, back and forth,(thinking, the bus was being hi-jacked, by an angry man in the back) their paranoia getting stronger, by the moment, as the bus driver continued telling a man in the rear of the bus(in an odd dialect of spanish), all about his nephew's up coming wedding, being postponed. And, as he explained to the man, in the rear, he was simply waiting for the radiator to cool down a bit, before moving along.

If that lady could have understood the conversation; the EYE contact, and the NO, being said when the one man returned from the lavatory, would not have been so threatening.

Those men's, so called co-ordinated effort, to stand, rather than stay seated, would have probably lost it's feeling of impending doom, as well. If she could have understood their conversation, as to how their ass probably hurt from all the sitting, or some such.

I do not find this example, reason enough to doubt proper security, nor do I see this as an example which supports, need for further infringements upon individual rights.

I see it, for what it REALLY is. A woman, who has been caught up in the BUSH FEAR campaign, and DUE to CULTURAL seperation, was likely suffering from ACUTE PARANOIA."

And this is your quote NOW:

"That's HOMELAND SECURITY for ya.

Now, it seems that this airline was undersiege by the GOD DAMN SYRIAN WAYNE NEWTON! What a bunch of COWARDS. When did America become so damn COMPLACENT?! "

Compare the first and the last. ROFL. Good job "honey",first the woman is freaking out for nothing it's all in her head, now DAMN look who was on board, where's homeland security, I thought that you wanted this woman to calm down and be more complacent. Now you are saying that Americans are too complacent, who offers flip flops and who offers tax breaks? ROFL.

[Takvah]

Hey man... YOURE NOT QUOTING ME... GET YOUR CRAP STRAIGHT dude! Ok?! Too tough to keep track of who you're quoting? The "then" quotes were STREETS. You did manage to get the "now" quotes right... imagine that.

As for someone coming into my house, I am free to shoot the bastard dead if I believe I am in danger. You break into my house and I'm there I am within my right to shoot you dead. Especially if I take one of my kitchen knives and place it in your cold dead hand.

As for being proactive on that flight I didn't say they needed to ASSAULT anyone. I said they should have searched the toilet, broke up the cadre of "terrorists" at the front and back of the plane that were "plotting" and made sure that they did not allow these guys to COORDINATE themselves. I said it might have gotten me killed but I would have been walking the aisle saying my legs were cramping or something while KEEPING A GOD DAMN EYE ON THESE GUYS.

Now... if you'd like to quote me, do so BUT FOR PETE'S SAKE QUOTE ME! Oh and when you have a thought thirty minutes later you can EDIT your posts here... you must be one of these people that gets into an argument and then thinks, "I should have said...", well the beauty of a forum with an edit is you can amend your thoughts.

Now go in and CORRECT the quote please... I know it'll be tough to seperate your lips from your butt in your world of fear but TRY.

Thanks

PS The devil is in the details. *snickers*

[ 07-30-2004, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Takvah ]

[Takvah]

Hey man... YOURE NOT QUOTING ME... GET YOUR CRAP STRAIGHT dude! Ok?! Too tough to keep track of who you're quoting? The "then" quotes were STREETS. You did manage to get the "now" quotes right... imagine that.

As for someone coming into my house, I am free to shoot the bastard dead if I believe I am in danger. You break into my house and I'm there I am within my right to shoot you dead. Especially if I take one of my kitchen knives and place it in your cold dead hand.

As for being proactive on that flight I didn't say they needed to ASSAULT anyone. I said they should have searched the toilet, broke up the cadre of "terrorists" at the front and back of the plane that were "plotting" and made sure that they did not allow these guys to COORDINATE themselves. I said it might have gotten me killed but I would have been walking the aisle saying my legs were cramping or something while KEEPING A GOD DAMN EYE ON THESE GUYS.

Now... if you'd like to quote me, do so BUT FOR PETE'S SAKE QUOTE ME! Oh and when you have a thought thirty minutes later you can EDIT your posts here... you must be one of these people that gets into an argument and then thinks, "I should have said...", well the beauty of a forum with an edit is you can amend your thoughts.

Now go in and CORRECT the quote please... I know it'll be tough to seperate your lips from your butt in your world of fear but TRY.

Thanks

PS The devil is in the details. *snickers*

[ 07-30-2004, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Takvah ]

[Steve Schacher]

Back off on the personal attacks.

[Steve Schacher]

Back off on the personal attacks.

[Wolferz]

Nothing to see here.

Please remain seated.

The Transport will be landing shortly.

We have Resnig and his trusty Marines waiting at the Starport.

[Wolferz]

Nothing to see here.

Please remain seated.

The Transport will be landing shortly.

We have Resnig and his trusty Marines waiting at the Starport.

[Takvah]

Well I take real offense when people quote me incorrectly Steve. If you are going to quote people do the homework.

As for you... I think it is great that you are calling attention to the fact that Bush is doing nothing to improve domestic security by enacting real immigration policies in this country. I for one am sick of the man pandering to latinos on this very issue. Bush seems to have the impression that unchecked immigration and law breaking is good for business. Unreal. He wants to put willing workers with willing employers... so our borders remain unprotected. Doesn't this piss anybody but me off?

Oh well like I said I'm the last REAL Republican.

Peace... and I'll calm myself... but I do hope that Soback has some integrity and retracts his comments.

Takvah

[ 07-30-2004, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Takvah ]