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Takvah

So what about Cheney the war Veep?

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Well, I think now that Dick Cheney has decided to relentlessly attack Kerry on his war record both in Vietnam and now in the way Kerry supported one $87 billion military supplemental while not supporting another, (he supported the one that contained an amendment that would have rolled back tax breaks to the top 1% and also improved healthcare for military personnel... how HEINOUS) it's time to remind people of Dick's glorious record.

Anyway, here we have Dick Cheney attacking and meanwhile he lives in a glass house. He supported Vietnam and he now supports the war in Iraq. Unfortunately when Dick Cheney could have put his blood where his mouth is, he proved that he would throw everything, even his offspiring in front of military service. This is why Dick Cheney isn't only a Chicken Hawk but also a Chicken Sh*t. I'm sorry but this guy should just shut his mouth when it comes to military service. Even G.W. Bush can laugh at this guy and that is saying something.

Cheney and his deferments... and CLINTON was a dodger? ROFLMAO what do you call Cheney then? Sorry Lynne looks like we actually have to get it on... I needs me a baby biotch! OH MY GOD. This guy has NO SHAME.

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Along with 16 MILLION other men who also recieved LEGAL deferments.

Attack, attack, attack, inuendo, on top of rumour, on top of inuendo.

Cheny got legal defernments, along with 16 MILLION other men, Clinton not only got a defernment, he split the country.

Yep, that Vietnam thing is SO important to you guys now.

Kerry served for 4 months, then cam back and spit in the face of those he served with.

Kerry is getting exactly what he asked for, as soon as he made Vietnam, and NOT his senatorial career the mainstay of his campaign, this is going to backfire BIG time Takvah.

Kerry is going to be in a world of hurt by the time this all blows over, the press may be hitting at Bush and Cheney, but they can't ignore Kerry much longer without looking VERY biased.

This is a mistake, this should never have been brought up, because Kerry is the one that is going to suffer from it.

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Jaguar, when will you bother to look up the truth?

Distorting history to belittle Kerry is so pathetic.

But, since you are likely to just dismiss what I say, comfortable in your far-right belief and trust in Kerry-haters, I'll provide the truth for you.

Kerry spent 10 months doing basic and officer training, like any other future naval officer.

Then he spent four months on the USS Gridley, which spent time in the Gulf of Tonkin.

Then another four months training for swift boat duty.

After that, he served on a swift boat from November '67, to April '68.

If you can do basic math, you'll see that this is more then just four months.

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I guess you just patently ignored this part of the article:

"Five deferments seems incredible to me," said David Curry, a professor at the University of Missouri in St. Louis who has written extensively about the draft, including a 1985 book, "Sunshine Patriots: Punishment and the Vietnam Offender."

"That's a lot of times for the draft board to say O.K.," Mr. Curry said.

I just think that if you are going to pretend to be tough on terror (which their record shows they truly aren't) and you want to say that you have the balls for the job it is funny to see what kind of metal you are actually made of. Was it coincidence that his daughter was timed? I don't think so. What the argument showed is that Cheney CLAWED AND SCRATCHED AND CHEWED his way out of Vietnam. I think it's disgusting and I think it is hypocritical for President Cheney to act like he knows the horror of war and what those kids in Iraq are going through.

I'm a Republican I am for justified war, I still think we have a job left unfinished in Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as in Saudi Arabia. I think a lot of people in this country agree.

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quote:

Originally posted by Kartoffel:

Jaguar, when will you bother to look up the truth?

Distorting history to belittle Kerry is so pathetic.

But, since you are likely to just dismiss what I say, comfortable in your far-right belief and trust in Kerry-haters, I'll provide the truth for you.

Kerry spent 10 months doing basic and officer training, like any other future naval officer.

Then he spent four months on the USS Gridley, which spent time in the Gulf of Tonkin.

Then another four months training for swift boat duty.

After that, he served on a swift boat from November '67, to April '68.

If you can do basic math, you'll see that this is more then just four months.

Time for you to do some research, your time in country STARTS when you take comnmand of the swiftboat. Kerry served 4 months on a Swiftboat and got out as soon as he recieved his third purple heart, none of which cost him 1 day of downtime.

I think it is you who needsz to do some research, and then look into when and where he was when he got back to the states, read about his senate testimony in front of the senate, where he LIED about what he and his fellow veterans were doing in Vietnam.

Read about his "christmas in Cambodia" which now has been changed by the Kerry canpaign for a 3rd time, they now claim that he didn't know where he was on Christmas of 69.

No my friend, I think it is you who need to research, but no worries, if Kerry signs his 180 and RELEASES his military records we will ALL know the truth.

BUT, Kerry refuses to sign them, instead he has tried a number of schemes to shut up the Swiftboat veterans for truth, and NONE of them have worked.

All he has to do is release his 180, and just straighten it all out, well he won't, and that tells me ALL I need to know.

Oh, and Kerry has REMOVED his military records from his website.

You guys, this whole thing is gonna blow up in your faces, bring up Cheney, and Bush's records about Vietnam, because the more you do, the more Kerry's records are gonna come out, and it's gonna destroy him.

Just remember this, KERRY is the one that made Vietnam the centerpiece of his campaign, the reaming that he gets, is ALL his own doing. He should have known better.

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quote:

Originally posted by Takvah:

I still think we have a job left unfinished in Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as in Saudi Arabia. I think a lot of people in this country agree.

I even agree with that, but I would not want Edwards in there doing his lawyer thing on it.

I trust Cheney, always have, voted for Reagan twice, watched him there, Cheney knows what he is doing, he's the Veep, he is an executive, that is what he needs to be, defense is Rumsfelds job, security adviser is Dr Rices job, and secratary of State is Colin Powells Job. Their resumes are impeccable, and they are a great team.

In this case, niether Cheney, NOR Bush have made their Vietnam era records part of this campaign, but Kerry has.

Again Takvah, watch out here, you are stepping into a minefield that you don't want Kerry to go into. This issue will finish him as the candidate for the Democratic party, by the end of October, Bush will be so far ahead of Kerry that it is insane, and will win in literally a landslide.

Kerry needs to RUN, not walk, but RUN away from the Vietnam record thing, because it in the end is gonna bite him, and destroy ANY chance of him going into the Whitehouse.

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I think Kerry does fine on his war record when he articulates it to the people. I think that the four month BS should be countered vigorously, as well as the Swift Boat crybaby O'Neill who is still bitter about being outdebated by Kerry during the war. Kerry was on Nixon's enemies list, he should be proud of that and O'Neill was the man Nixon used to counter Kerry. O'Neill wasn't up to the task then and he isn't up to the task now.

Bush and Cheney have no military records. Bush served in some capacity though most of it cannot be authenticated by witness testimony. You do not see anybody that Bush served with stepping to the fore. I don't know how ANYBODY can just ignore that... but I guess you don't wonder why that is. I however, do.

Also you are implying that Kerry is behind Bush in the polls as of this moment. I would point you to PollingReport.com where you can get up to date polling data. Bush is currently trailing Kerry if even only marginally in most of these polls (including the FOX News poll). Bush is certainly not proving (at least currently) that he can even be re-elected, most people currently want someone new. For all of the attacks Bush has been launching it seems to be ringing hollow with the people.

We'll keep watching those polls though, I am sure that we will each have our fair share of opportunities to state that either of our candidates is a front runner.

Kerry's war record is going to stand up to the scrutiny it has for going on a year now and that's after some really calculated attacks from the medals incident to this recent Cambodia claim. So far that dog aint huntin'.

Peace

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The problem is that the dog IS hunting Takvah.

And your boy won't sign his 180, and until he does that, the suspicion is that he's hiding something.

The Republican convention hasnt happened, and the Kerry meltdown, which I assure you is going to happen, hasn't happened yet.

Bush has this one in the bag.

Kerry and the Democrats are going to shoot themselves in the foot AGAIN. It's gonna be fun to watch it all implode.

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So you only want to count the time serving on the swiftboat, Jag? Fine. That's still more then four months, yet, apparently you can't do basic math, as he served six months on the swift boat.

Stop making yourself look like an idiot.

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He served 4 MONTHS on the Swiftboat Kartoffel, quit making yourself look like an idiot, 140 days does not 6 months make.

You need to study up there boy, and chill out with the namecalling.

Takvah and I have been very nice to each other the last couple of days, do I have smack you around too?

He got 3 purple hearts, and a bronze star and a silver star in less then 140 days, and got his get out of Vietnam free card.

The first one, that he was originally denied was the last one he was actually given, and that is what got him out of Vietnam.

Time to study up, because you don't want to go against me on Kerry's record. I got affidavits, sworn statements, and a whole fricking book that tells me a WHOLE lot of great stuff, and until Kerry signs his 180, you got NOTHING.

Got it?

Until Kerry signs that 180 and releases his FULL military files to the public, you have NOTHING to defend him with.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Until Kerry signs that 180 and releases his FULL military files to the public, you have NOTHING to defend him with.

To bad they don't take legs and make their way to public. Hmmm, maybe Sandy Berger can do that for us.

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Jaguar, smack him around too? Who the hell did you smack around? I would really like to know. I really have to say that I don't find you to be very bright but taking that tone, like you somehow bested me and therefor I just backed off is BS. I just want to discuss the facts. Frankly, the threats are what always ticks me off about you. That kind of tone says a lot about your ability to wage proper debate.

As for Kerry's service. I was right, Kerry is going on the offensive today. Frankly, I can't wait to see how this plays out. Kerry needs to release his 180... WHERE THE HELL ARE BUSH'S COMRADES FROM THE BASE WHERE HE SAYS HE SERVED? WHERE. Did he do any time in WAR. Four MINUTES EVEN? Papers mysteriously disappear and reappear and what do they show... Bush failed to appear for physicals and nobody can substantiate that he was in the guard from 4/72-4/73 (or thereabouts). PERIOD.

Your boy Bush is a fraud. The war President. Who the hell would give himself such a nom de guerre? "Bring it on?" Bush has ducked every fight he's ever been in. Oh wait, he wanted to go toe to toe with his dad when he took his brother out and got him wasted and busted. What a tough guy.

I'm going to try to ignore your smack comment. But I gotta tell you, you're so angry at the world that it says a lot about the quality of your private life. No optimism, no critical thought... just brooding contempt. That's just the facts as you present them my friend. If you want respect then you give what you get (according to you), well Jag implying that you "smacked" me around ain't gonna get you that from me.

Later

[ 08-19-2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Takvah ]

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Kerry is going on the offensive today? Hmm,

At a speech in front of firefighters he said

quote:

Swiftvets for Truth aren't interested in the truth. They are a front for Bush and funded by Republicans.

Excuse me? That is an attack?

quote:

ABC Radio News: "Kerry says that if Bush wants to talk about Vietnam service, then 'bring it on!'"


No Mr Kerry, you are the one that brought up your Vietnam service and have made it the centerpiece of your campaign.

The Swiftvets have said, "Bring it ON!!"

If Kerry wants to go on offense, then he needs to sign his 180.

That's it, sign the 180 Mr Kerry, and then let's see where the chips fall.

What is Mr. Kerry hiding?

By the way Takvah, that was not an attack, that was an ad hoc ad hominem, and it was pathetic.

If that is the best Kerry can do, he is in much more desperate shape then I thought, the man is in deep kaka, and is just now realizing it.

BTW, Kerry just walked right into a trap and does not realize it, he has let his enemies make him react to thier charges. The Swiftboat Vets are now getting Kerry 's campaign to react, Kerrys campaign has switched gears in mid campaign.

WOOPS!!!

The new add that Kerre has released is so chock full of inuendos and straight up BS that it is insane.

Just Sign the 180 John and let's get it over with.

Just sign the 180.....

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"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

--Colin Powell, My American Journey, p. 148

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quote:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

This is MUCH, the price, of a volunteer army. Only the lower class JOIN, for the education.(I did, when I JOINED). With a DRAFT, and without the deferrals...It would balance things out, but it would take at least 20 years(2 generations) for the wealthier ruling class, to form a proper perspective, as to the HORROR of war.

poor Bush....His arrogance, will eventually do him in! *I just hope, he has'nt ALREADY done us all in *

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Who knows how long it would take. I say that if you are the President and you believe in war then the feet of your children are the first to touch enemy soil. Where the hell are Jenna and Barbara or for that matter George P. and the rest of the extended family? Oh yeah... NOWHERE. Hypocrites? You better believe it. Rush Limbaugh, lover of war... how did he get out of Vietnam? A CYST ON HIS ASS.

The whole bunch of them should be put on a C-130 with general infantry kits and dropped into the Iraqi desert. Hell I'll do them one better, they can also have a Humvee (unarmored) to drive their fat asses around.

They want to attack KERRY! Who the hell do these people think they are!

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quote:

Originally posted by Takvah:

Who knows how long it would take. I say that if you are the President and you believe in war then the feet of your children are the first to touch enemy soil. Where the hell are Jenna and Barbara or for that matter George P. and the rest of the extended family? Oh yeah... NOWHERE. Hypocrites? You better believe it. Rush Limbaugh, lover of war... how did he get out of Vietnam? A CYST ON HIS ASS.

The whole bunch of them should be put on a C-130 with general infantry kits and dropped into the Iraqi desert. Hell I'll do them one better, they can also have a Humvee (unarmored) to drive their fat asses around.

They want to attack KERRY! Who the hell do these people think they are!

Now you're just talking nonsense.

Quit with the Michael Moore talking points, because they make no sense when he says them, and they make no sense when you do.

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What doesn't make sense about this? People that love war sure have a strange way of showing their support for it Jaguar. They won't worry about sacrificing your kids if and when the time comes, so don't you wonder why their kids who are old enough to make an impact now are NOWHERE TO BE SEEN?

Yeah that makes no sense to you? Right.

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quote:

Originally posted by Takvah:

What doesn't make sense about this? People that love war sure have a strange way of showing their support for it Jaguar. They won't worry about sacrificing your kids if and when the time comes, so don't you wonder why their kids who are old enough to make an impact now are NOWHERE TO BE SEEN?

Yeah that makes no sense to you? Right.

No, that sounds like Michael Moore emotional rhetoric, because he doesn't understand what war actually is, and neither do you.

Our military is totally VOLUNTEER, they know that they might go to war, it is part of the job.

I knew, and I still enlisted, they know, and a LOT of them are REENLISTING!!!

YOu need to get off the this Michael Moore kick, because it is making you sound even more clueless then you really are.

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From the telegraph

quote:

Revealed: how 'war hero' Kerry tried to put off Vietnam military duty

By Charles Laurence in New York

(Filed: 07/03/2004)

Senator John Kerry, the presumed Democratic presidential candidate who is trading on his Vietnam war record to campaign against President George W Bush, tried to defer his military service for a year, according to a newly rediscovered article in a Harvard University newspaper.

Senator Kerry on the campaign trail in Iowa

He wrote to his local recruitment board seeking permission to spend a further 12 months studying in Paris, after completing his degree course at Yale University in the mid-1960s.

The revelation appears to undercut Sen Kerry's carefully-cultivated image as a man who willingly served his country in a dangerous war - in supposed contrast to President Bush, who served in the Texas National Guard and thus avoided being sent to Vietnam.

The Harvard Crimson newspaper followed a youthful Mr Kerry in Boston as he campaigned for Congress for the first time in 1970. In the course of a lengthy article, "John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress", published on February 18, the paper reported: "When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy."

Samuel Goldhaber, the article's author who is now a cardiologist attached to the Harvard School of Medicine, spent 11 hours trailing Mr Kerry and still remembers that the subject of the Paris deferment came up during long conversations about Vietnam.

"I stand by my story," he told The Telegraph. "It was a long time ago, and I was 19 at the time, so it is hard to remember every detail. But I do know this: at no point did Kerry contact either me or the Crimson to dispute anything I had written."

Sen Kerry's campaign headquarters in Washington refused an opportunity to deny the report. Despite repeated telephone calls from The Telegraph, a spokesman refused to comment. Another Democrat official said merely: "In Vietnam, John Kerry proved his patriotism beyond question. Everyone knows that."

A senior Republican strategist, who asked not to be named, said: "I've not heard this before. This undercuts Kerry's complaints about Bush and it continues to pose questions as to his credibility among ordinary Vietnam veterans."

He said it would fuel concerns over the way Sen Kerry made a name for himself by leading anti-war protests in Washington and Boston in the late 1960s and early 1970s after he had completed his service in the US Navy, even while his former comrades continued to fight and die.

A newly-published biography of Sen Kerry by Douglas Brinkley, A Tour of Duty, makes no mention of the requested deferment or planned year in Paris. At the time, it was still unclear just how long America would remain in Vietnam, and it might have seemed that a year's deferral of service could render enlistment unnecessary.

...Snip...


Oh John, say it ain't so....

I thought you RAN to do your service in Vietnam, not ask for a deferment to go to france to study for a year.

Oh come on John, say it ain't so....LOL

I told you guys that this was going to backfire on you. Bringing up Bush and Cheney's Vietnam stuff.

I told you, Kerry is damaged goods man, and you guys just back him to the hilt.

I told you, but would you listen, Oh no....

ROFLMAO!!!

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Forgive my uneducated intrusion (I usually don't participate much in politics) as I find that sorting through mountains of half-truths and exaggerations (on every side) is much too wearisome to be up to date on political discussion, but I want to say something.

Regardless of how brief his service was, at least Kerry WENT to the war at all; something Bush did not do (unless I am mistaken, which I very well may be). So, on this front, Kerry automatically has a 1-up on him, and no smoke-and-mirror tricks that Bush or anybody else can pull will disguise that fact.

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Dick Cheney was also George H. W. Bush's Secretary of Defense for four years, after spending 10 years in the House of Representatives, and after being President Ford's Chief of Staff when Donald Rumsfeld became Secretary of Defense.

I offer this for additional reference:

Presidents with Military Command Experience (Generals bolded)

George Washington: Commander in Chief of the Continental Army

James Monroe: Major

Andrew Jackson: Major General

William H. Harrison: Brigadier General

Zachary Tayler: Major General

Abraham Lincoln: Captain

Andrew Johnson: Brigadier General

Ulysses S. Grant: Lt. General, Commander of all the Union armies

Rutherford B. Hayes: Major General

James Garfield: Major General (of volunteers)

Benjamin Harrison: Brigadier General

William McKinley: Major

Theodore Roosevelt: Colonel, Assistant Secretary of the Navy

Franklin D. Roosevelt: no command experience, but was Assistant Secretary of the Navy

Harry Truman: Captain

Dwight D. Eisenhower: Supreme Allied Commander

John F. Kennedy: Lieutenant (j.g.)

Lyndon Johnson: Lieutenant Commander

Richard Nixon: Lieutenant Commander

Gerald Ford: Lieutenant Commander

Jimmy Carter: Lieutenant

Ronald Reagan: Captain

George H. W. Bush: Lieutenant (j.g.)

George W. Bush: Lieutenant, Air National Guard

Presidents who served in wars

George Washington - Commander in Chief of Continental Army during the American Revolution.

James Monroe - served in American Revolution

Andrew Jackson - American Revolution, War of 1812, First Seminole War

William Henry Harrison - Indian wars in the NW territory, War of 1812

John Tyler - War of 1812

Zachary Taylor - War of 1812, Black Hawk, Second Seminole, and Mexican wars

Franklin Pierce - Mexican War

James Buchanan - War of 1812

Abraham Lincoln - Black Hawk War

Andrew Johnson - Civil War

Ulysses Grant - Mexican War, Civil War

Rutherford Hayes - Civil War

James Garfield - Civil War

Chester Arthur - Civil War

Benjamin Harrison - Civil War

William McKinley - Civil War

Theodore Roosevelt - Spanish-American War

Harry Truman - WWI

Dwight Eisenhower - WWII General

John Kennedy - WWII

Lyndon Johnson - WWII

Richard Nixon - WWII

Gerald Ford - WWII

Ronald Reagan - WWII

George H. W. Bush - WWII

Presidents who were in the military but who saw no action

James Madison

James Polk

Millard Fillmore

Jimmy Carter

George W. Bush

Presidents with no military experience

John Adams

Thomas Jefferson

John Quincy Adams

Martin Van Buren

Grover Cleveland

William Taft

Woodrow Wilson

Warren Harding

Calvin Coolidge

Herbert Hoover

Franklin Roosevelt

Bill Clinton

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Presidents who were in the military but who saw no action: George W. Bush

That says it all for me. Don't go insulting Kerry's war record if your republican president didn't even see any action. Kerry ACTULLY fought in the Vietnam war.

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Kerry in a landslide.

Backfire... the backfire is that there are Swift Boat veterans dropping like flies out there. No proof no nothing but trails that show they bought houses from their benefactor. ROFLMAO. You have got to be kidding me.

Here's the deal Jaguar. Kerry is waiting. The Republican Convention is going to happen and then when that's over the gloves are off. They are letting George trot out a bunch of warmongers and then WHAM BAM THANK YOU MA'AM we hear about what a PUSSY this President and his Veep are. Oh yeah it's coming. Why do you think G.W. finally came out and said, NO 527s? Because the pain is coming.

60/40 Kerry that's the going rate in this country... RIGHT NOW, you just don't know it yet. That's today's rate, if the Dems are anything like me they'll bury G.W. after the convention. The guy is laying suckers down to take the fall for him... hence his latest dismissal of 527s and likely this is going to piss off these guys that have MASSACRED their own morality to stick up for this COWARD. Oh the excrement is about to hit the fan. They SMEARED Mc Cain saying he was a TRAITOR and now they are going to pay for these trespasses. Karl Rove is a liability. The week after the Republican Convention is going to be interesting.

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ROFLMAO!!

You are dreaming, Kerry already lost 10% of the veteran vote and it's accelerating.

Kerry and the Dem's are imploding and you are off in lala land saying they are going to win.

ROFLMAO!!

I've heard some fairy tales, but that one beats all Takvah!!

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