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Florida judge denies latest appeal in Schiavo case


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It's been quiet around here concerning this case. So I guess I'll be the one to start.

CLEARWATER, Florida (CNN) -- Florida Circuit Court Judge George Greer on Saturday turned down the latest appeal by the parents of Terri Schiavo for her feeding tube to be reinserted.

What a mess this has turned out to be. What should be a deeply private affair with this family has turned into a global spectacle. What really irked me the most, besides those nuts outside the hospital, was congress getting involved in this matter. The florida courts have ruled on the issue and that should be the end of it. But noooo, the politicians in congress see a great opportunity to get some quality air time.

The second most irritating issue about this is the Religious viewpoint. They have lost sight of their beliefs. Do they not believe in an afterlife? Do they not believe, deep down, that God really exists. From what I've seen and and heard and what a lot of religious leaders have uttered, I'd say they don't.

Ummm, hello, God called this person 15 years ago and we, with out technology, are denying her calling.

The Religious reps I've heard, state that she should live. Again they've lost sight of their beliefs that it's not about life but what one does in their life.

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quote:

Originally posted by LostInSpace:

It's been quiet around here concerning this case. So I guess I'll be the one to start.

What a mess this has turned out to be. What should be a deeply private affair with this family has turned into a global spectacle. What really irked me the most, besides those nuts outside the hospital, was congress getting involved in this matter. The florida courts have ruled on the issue and that should be the end of it. But noooo, the politicians in congress see a great opportunity to get some quality air time.

The second most irritating issue about this is the Religious viewpoint. They have lost sight of their beliefs. Do they not believe in an afterlife? Do they not believe, deep down, that God really exists. From what I've seen and and heard and what a lot of religious leaders have uttered, I'd say they don't.

Ummm, hello, God called this person 15 years ago and we, with out technology, are denying her calling.

The Religious reps I've heard, state that she should live. Again they've lost sight of their beliefs that it's not about life but what one does in their life.

I disagree 100% LIS.

These are the reasons.

A: she did NOT have a Living will

B: There has NEVER been an MRI done on her, EVER...

C: Her husband worked his butt off to keep her alive UNTIL the end of his medical malpractice suit, which he claimed was for her medical care for the rest of her life, NOT once claiming that she asked to die if she was ever in this state. Once he got the money for this medical malpractice suit, he began claiming that she wanted to die, Of course leaving him all of the money.

D: There are still questions of how exactly she got into such a condition, there are indeed clues that she may have been abused and HE may have done it to her.

E: He wants her body cremated IMMEDIATELY, without an Autopsy, and against her parents wishes.

F: Any nurse that tried to feed her orally, or tried rehabilitation with her, was fired, because when he found out, he would go BALLISTIC.

G: This woman is NOT a vegatale, or PVS, the man that has stated that, spent a total of 30 minutes with her, and watched a video.

H: The judge claims that he watched a video of Terry for 3 hours, and agreed with the above doctors assessment, Problem is, this judge is LEGALLY BLIND.....

I: Michael Schiavo's Lawyer was at one time Director of the SAME hospice that Terry is in right now, and placed her there when he took the case, can you say CONFLICT of interest?

J: The main medical doctor from G: stated that a man in a wheelchair was PVS, the man could wheel himself around, recognized colors, and was beginning to talk again. The family WANTED a diagnosis of PVS, so that the man's living will could come into effect, and they could inherit. So he gave them the PVS diagnosis, and the man was KILLED....

K: Terry has NEVER had a lawyer of her own to represent her, just those that were hired to represent her parents interests. Her right to counsel has been IGNORED.....

L: Terry Schiavo never stated to ANYONE else what she wanted done if anything like this happened to her, Michael Schiavo's testimony on this is HERESY, and therefore should NOT be permitted as evidence in a court of law.

M: This is MURDER, pure and simple, Michael not only expects to get a POTLOAD of money, but it looks like he is going to get away with murder, a murder that he screwed up 15 years ago, and has profited from ever since.

This smells to high heaven, the courts have sanctioned MURDER, because of her "quality of Life" When there is NO evidence, except for heresy, that Terry would not want to live just as she is right now.

Her parents are MORE then willing to care for her, and pay for any and all care that she gets.

BTW, the money that is left over from her trustfund, and probably life insurance, goes to Michael, and 1/3 goes to his bloodsucking lawyer.

Yeah, you bet, let's kill Terry and allow others to do the same to their relatives with Alzheimers, Parkinsons disease, parapalegics and others whose "quality of Life" is so low, and their care so expensive that death would be better for them.

Study Germany, 1939, you will understand why people are scared to death. This is a SLIPPERY slope, BIG time.

BTW, Terry is on a feeding tube, NO other form of life support whatsoever.

If I did this to my dog, I would be thrown in jail, but they are doing this to a human being.

Ever been starved to death? It isn't pretty, and it is FAR from painless.

This woman is NOT PVS, and she is feeling EVERY painful minute of it....

Congress and the state of Florida had EVERY right to interfere with this case.

When one citizens rights are ignored and THREATENED, congress and the state legislature MUST take action, otherwise, ALL OF OUR rights are in jeopardy.

This whole case is WRONG, this sentence of DEATH is WRONG.

Without a living will, and with her medical trustfund, Terry could live a LONG life, and recieve the BEST rehabilitation. She has NOT had rehabilitation for over 10 years, ever since her husband decided that she would want to die. He has spent a good percentage of her medical trustfund on Lawyers trying to KILL her....

350K to his current bloodsucker....

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Just another example of downright ignorant, if not barbaric, relegious dogma.

Oh and Judge, I seriously doubt that even hypocrates, much less a merciful loving God would allow a patient to suffer needlessly.

I am wondering have you ever been fed with a tube, Jag?

I don't think that the "tube" is shoved into your breadbasket and a funnel is hooked to it for pouring in chicken soup. Quite the contrary. You are fed through an intravienous drip, so your stomach pretty much shrivels up anyway.

Personally, I can't fathom the idea of being kept alive artificially for ten years.

Being tapped within a broken shell is not my idea of "living"

In this country we euthanize our old and sick animals to prevent them from suffering and we could be fined and or jailed for cruelty if we allow them to suffer. Human beings are animals too, no matter how many times some religious nutjob wants to say otherwise.

That's all I'm going to say about that.

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This is basically the most rediculous thing I've seen in a long time. As I recall, the only time you have the right to take the life of a person is if said person is trying to kill you (or stealing your car, as it is here in NJ). And I can't say I recall any stories of Terri Schiavo going on a rampage recently. So as far as I'm concerned, nobody has the right to take her life.

And secondly, even if God came down from the sky and said "Yeah, its ok. Go ahead and kill her," what they're doing is rediculous. Maybe this is just me, but I would typically call starving a person to death "torture."

Is anyone else a little disturbed that our court system has just granted the right to kill people?

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No, unplugging someone from their only source of life because you don't want to pay the bill is selfish. Especially when that person is still in there somewhere, whether she can express it or not. And even more so when it is possible that she tried to say she wanted to live.

If I were in her situation, I would just want them to put me down, but not everyone is like me. I'm not exactly sure how she is in "constant pain" as you put it, but maybe to her that is worth it just to live. Maybe all she wants is to survive. Maybe she doesn't. We don't know because we can't ask her. If she doesn't want to live and we keep her on the tube, we can always pull the plug later. If she does want to live, and we kill her, well needless to say, there's no second chances on that one.

The power to end someones life is not a right that any of us should have.

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Judge and Wolferz,

Let's go over this one point at a time, shall we?

A: She is NOT PVS, she has responded well to rehabilitation, her husband has had it STOPPED whenever it seemed she was making progress.

B: She is NOT in pain, she has a stomach feeding tube, but was able to eat Pudding, drink water, etc, but, whenever her husband realized that ther nurses were actually feeding her, he again HAD IT STOPPED.

C: This woman has NO living will, so we have NO idea what she wants, in a case like this, the governments assumption should ALWAYS be life.

D: The doctor who diagnosed her was PAYED by Michael Schiavo for that diagnosis, and has given this diagnosis in a number of cases that were later PROVEN, that thos patients were NOT PVS.

E: Michael swore up and down throughout the malpractice suit, that he needed the money to care for Terry for the rest of her life, and did not change that story, UNTIL HE WON THE LAWSUIT, then he turned around and decided she would want to be dead.

F: This is a feeding tube, nothing major, and her trust fund had, before the judge allowed the lawyers to be payed from it, to care for her for the rest of her natural life, and to give her the BEST rehabilitation and medical care.

G: There are still problems with how Terry was found, the police thought they were doing a murder investigation, but when it turned out that she was NOT dead, they dropped their investigation, first suspect, Michael Schiavo.

This stinks to high heaven.

I would NOT have a problem with this if

A: Terry had a living will

B: If Michael Schiavo had told everyone that Terry wanted this from the beginning, and not 7 years AFTER the fact, and after he had won CONTROL of a major amount of money, that he would get if Terry died.

C: He actually TRIED to rehabilitate her.

D: If he had actually had an MRI and OTHER definitive tests done on her to prove that she was indeed PVS, which to this day have NOT BEEN DONE.

This case STINKS, the courts can now say, your quality of life sucks, and we don't know what you want, so, we are going to kill you because your life is not worth living in our opinion.

SO, if you do NOT have a living will, and having you live is INCONVENIENT for your family, they can now go to a judge and demand that you be put to death.

Nice, real nice, and you guys actually WANT this?

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I didn't say I wanted it for anyone other than myself.

Mrs Schiavo's case is in the hands of her lawfully wedded husband. It's his decision and nobody elses. Period! Now if the authorities suspect that he was responsible for the injuries that dibilitated his wife, then they should charge him with a crime and lock him away from the rest of society. Until that's done, everyone else should butt the hell out. Unless we have intimate knowledge of the events that led up to thise case, who are we to judge?

Oh, last time I looked, witholding medical treatment is a crime in this country, except when you don't have a way to pay for treatment.

Just ask the religious nutjobs who got locked up for deferring medical treatment for their children to God. Man has placed far too much faith in modern medical science. Which Imho has done as much harm as it has good.

In closing my opinion on this current event, Mr Schiavo will be the one who will be judged for his actions. Not by us, not by God, Only by himself. So I for one will keep my nose in my own business and I would thank the courts and the governments and anyone else for minding theirs.

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolferz:

I didn't say I wanted it for anyone other than myself.

Mrs Schiavo's case is in the hands of her lawfully wedded husband. It's his decision and nobody elses. Period! Now if the authorities suspect that he was responsible for the injuries that dibilitated his wife, then they should charge him with a crime and lock him away from the rest of society. Until that's done, everyone else should butt the hell out. Unless we have intimate knowledge of the events that led up to thise case, who are we to judge?

Oh, last time I looked, witholding medical treatment is a crime in this country, except when you don't have a way to pay for treatment.

Just ask the religious nutjobs who got locked up for deferring medical treatment for their children to God. Man has placed far too much faith in modern medical science. Which Imho has done as much harm as it has good.

In closing my opinion on this current event, Mr Schiavo will be the one who will be judged for his actions. Not by us, not by God, Only by himself. So I for one will keep my nose in my own business and I would thank the courts and the governments and anyone else for minding theirs.

No wonder this country is going downhill so fast.

We have people that realize that there is a problem, but unwilling to do anything about it.

Sad, REAL sad.....

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

I disagree 100% LIS.

Damn where did you get all that info? I did not know that an MRI was never done. The only thing I knew about the case is that her heart gave out depriving her brain of oxygen.

If there's any lesson learned from this, no matter who you are from the rich to the very poor, make a LIVING WILL.

As far as the possible murder inclinations, what ever happened to an ATTEMPTED MURDER investigation?

And that begs another question, why didn't her family push for an investigation. I mean it's been 15+ plus years.

Anyway, I still stand by the gist of my original post. Okay, just say there have been mistakes all around in this case and she dies without those artificial means. We are only human and we do make mistakes. However, if you are religious and believe in a God and an afterlife, she will be in a better place and that those directly involved will get the resolution they deserve when they die.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

E: He wants her body cremated IMMEDIATELY, without an Autopsy, and against her parents wishes.

Not much mention of this item (here or elsewhere) ... probably because it has few implications for anyone other than a Catholic. But, for a Catholic, it has consequences that stretch far beyond the stupid, petty arguements that encompass a few years of life on earth.

If she were my daughter, I'd kill the bastard before I'd let him cremate her.

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I am sure none of us have all we need to decide what Mrs. Schiavo's future should be. But Jaguar is right; there is not enough evidence to justify starving her to death. And if there were, ONE judge makes the decision? I would think a panel of, what are they called again? Oh, DOCTORS! should make the call.

Even without all the info Jag has divulged on this topic it occured to me that Mr. Schiavo's motivations in the state of his wife may be nefarious. Now knowing there's been no MRI, and the cancelling of her rehab, I am even more convinced.

My Grandmother had Parkinson's. We never tried to have her feeding tube removed; nor would we want to. I imagine most people are compassionate like that about their loved ones. But what if we weren't? Or we wanted her money? This Schiavo case could set up a scary legal precident. Oh, BTW Wolferz are you sure about that feeding tube theory of yours?

"I don't think that the "tube" is shoved into your breadbasket and a funnel is hooked to it for pouring in chicken soup."

I got a C-note that says you're wrong. But I don't think SC wants any betting on this forum so I'll just go ahead and tell you; They do put a tube into your stomach. They don't put in chicken soup through a funnel but they do use an 'Ensure' type nutrient solution in a hanging bag. One could use chicken soup but it'd have to be a liquid suspension with very small particles so as not to clog the tube. They supplement a patients fluids if/when necessary via IV saline sol.

Jag, do you have any more info on Schiavo's malpractice suit?

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quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

How many of you in her condition would want to live?

Does it matter? What we want is NOT necassarily what she would want.

She was a VERY devout Catholic, and Catholics take life VERY seriously.

If she had left a living will, I would NOT have a problem with it, but she did not, and all we have is her husbands word, but her parents tell us differently. They were the ones that brought her up, they were the ones that taught her morality.

If they don't know, then no one does.

Michael NEVER claimed that she would want to be dead until AFTER the malpractice suit, 7 YEARS, if he had stated it from the beginning, again, I would not have the HUGE problem that I have with it.

A judge sentenced a woman to death, because she is brain damaged, and NO MRI has ever been done to prove that she is indeed PVS. At the same time, the judge sentenced an INNOCENT woman to STARVE to death, because she is not good enough to continue living, even though there are people that will care for her.

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People in her condition not would only want to live, but would want to be REHABILITATED.

The way she is right now, to someone who doesn't know much about the "condition", seems like an empty existence. However, people who are in her "condition", if provided with therapy, recover. Less than 10% recover fully, but 80% recover and re-learn to speak (with a lisp or some kind of little tell tale sign, but speak with full comprehension), move, eat and all the other things. Just like Jag said, she has recieved ZERO therapy. None whatsoever. How do you expect her to recover on her own? She can't, it's impossible. Everyone needs therapy after something drastic. Any of you ever had to wear a cast for half a year? Do you know that you can't bend your joints after the cast is removed? Do you know that if you don't theraputically exercise them that you will never regain full joint mobility. Plain and simple.

As for the reference to Germany in 1939, Jag is copmletly correct on that one too. Of course it's not in fully blown here, maybe not yet. But just like there, the claims are that she is a drain on resources, never will recover ect...However, she has never even been provided with a chance to recover, in all these years, wonder why. Guess money speaks louder to her "husband", and the public jumps in, and surprisingly a good ammount of liberal democrats say, Kill her. The same ones that "waste" millions to clean up birds after the oil spill, the same ones that waste millions on helping gang members and drug dealers to "rehabilitate", the same ones that spend millions on protecting and "endagered" butterfly, the same ones that spend millions keeping murderers in jail, the same ones that march outside the execution chamber of a murderer who killed dozens saying that killing him is immoral. Go figure. Who here is sick, sick in the head, people who want to help her recover, or people who just want her to die with no chance? Hmm....

History repeats itself, and looks like that cycle is begining, economically, socialy, moraly, and otherwise.

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolferz:

Just another example of downright ignorant, if not barbaric, relegious dogma.

Oh and Judge, I seriously doubt that even hypocrates, much less a merciful loving God would allow a patient to suffer needlessly.

I am wondering have you ever been fed with a tube, Jag?

I don't think that the "tube" is shoved into your breadbasket and a funnel is hooked to it for pouring in chicken soup. Quite the contrary. You are fed through an intravienous drip, so your stomach pretty much shrivels up anyway.

Personally, I can't fathom the idea of being kept alive artificially for ten years.

Being tapped within a broken shell is not my idea of "living"

In this country we euthanize our old and sick animals to prevent them from suffering and we could be fined and or jailed for cruelty if we allow them to suffer. Human beings are animals too, no matter how many times some religious nutjob wants to say otherwise.

That's all I'm going to say about that.

Actually, you don't know what you're talking about here. I was fed through an Intravenous drip when I was 17 becuase my stomach was so badly damaged that I couldn't digest food. During only a 1 month period of being fed this way I went from 175LBS of PURE Muscle down to a skeletal 95 LBS. It's IMPOSSIBLE for them to REALLY feed you this way, for your body to process nutrition properly, it MUST be digested by your stomach and pass through the intestines for the nutrients to be absorbed. The technology doesn't exist to intraveniously give people any more than around 10% of what they need to survive. The only reason that I survived was becuase I was in such good shape physically, if it wasn't for that I would have died for sure.

Terry Shivo was being fed with a tube that was hooked up to her Throat with blended food, with enzymes added to aid digestion, but it was definetly going through her stomach

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolferz:

I didn't say I wanted it for anyone other than myself.

Mrs Schiavo's case is in the hands of her lawfully wedded husband. It's his decision and nobody elses. Period!

This is BULLSHIT and you know it. If Terri Shiavo was Mr. Sheiavo's Daughter, HRS would come in and have an MRI done and other things to make sure that the childs rights are being protected, why? Because the child can't legally speak for themselves, especially if they are being abused. How is this any different? Did Terri TELL YOU that she wanted to die? No!, so who is looking out for Terri's best interest? Just because someone is married to someone doesn't give that person the right to kill, torture or maime the spouse. So why all of a sudden it's Oh well, we have to respect the rights of the husband, if he doesn't want her rehabilited, OK, if he doesn't want MRI's OK, if he doesn't want another Dr.'s Opinion, OK. NO PROBLEM we're just going to trust the Husband on every decision here. It doesn't matter that the parents want a second opinion, it doesn't matter that the Congress passed an ACT, that an INDEPENDANT Dr. should give a second opinion, we're just going to trust the husband on this one.... Yeah RIGHT!!!

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Oh and one more thing about the time I was hospitalized, the Dr.'s thought that there was:

1. No chance in hell for me to live past the inicial surgery.

2. No chance in hell that I would survive long enough for my stomach to heal enough for me to eat again.

3. No chance in hell for my spinal injuries to allow me to walk again.

4. No chance in hell for me to regain use of my right arm, due to Nerve Damage.

And Guess what, They were WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. They were ready to write me off, but today I'm fine, I have a great family and a fantastic life. That's why you get second opinions because not everything that the Dr. Says is true.

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I stand corrected on the feeding tube.

From the news camera footage I have seen of this woman, she isn't a skeleton.

I reiterate again, By law it is her husband's right to decide what's best for his family. Not Congress, a court, or even her parents.

Forcing anything on another citizen, as Barbara Walters would say, is wong wong wong. Pewiod.

Chalk it up to Terri for making a bad decision in a husband and butt out. End of arguement.

However, I did hear on the news this morning that Mr Schiavo has now consented to an autopsy.

I am well aware that it doesn't help Terri now. but, it's irrelevant how we shuffle off the mortal coil. Terri goes to a much better place.

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From what I understand from the news last night, her husband has backed down from not allowing an autopsy, after she passes, among one concern that he's hiding something.

CNN: PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- Terri Schiavo's husband has asked that an autopsy be performed on his wife after she dies so that a full report can be done on the extent of her brain damage, an attorney for Michael Schiavo said Monday.

Also:

quote:

Felos also countered accusations that a brain scan has never been performed on Terri Schiavo.

He said CAT scans of her brain were introduced in trials in 2000 and 2002, showing that her cerebral cortex was "gone."

So much for a so called conspiracy on Mr. Schiavo. I think those issues were mostly raised from those nutters I see haunting the outside of that hospice.

[ 03-29-2005, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: LostInSpace ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

How many of you in her condition would want to live?

Does it matter? What we want is NOT necassarily what she would want.


I wasn't asking what Terry wanted, I was asking everyone's thoughts on this matter if it were them.
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quote:

Does it matter? What we want is NOT necassarily what she would want.

She was a VERY devout Catholic, and Catholics take life VERY seriously.

If she had left a living will, I would NOT have a problem with it, but she did not, and all we have is her husbands word, but her parents tell us differently. They were the ones that brought her up, they were the ones that taught her morality.

If they don't know, then no one does.

Michael NEVER claimed that she would want to be dead until AFTER the malpractice suit, 7 YEARS, if he had stated it from the beginning, again, I would not have the HUGE problem that I have with it.

A judge sentenced a woman to death, because she is brain damaged, and NO MRI has ever been done to prove that she is indeed PVS. At the same time, the judge sentenced an INNOCENT woman to STARVE to death, because she is not good enough to continue living, even though there are people that will care for her.


For the first time, I find myself in 100% agreement with Jag, ...........eek!!!

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My stance on this is that I'm not siding with Michael. Its just ludicrous that he won't just turn the woman over to her parents. I simply do not understand this. I mean, its not like he has anything at stake.

I heard somewhere that he was offered $10m to turn her over and he refused. I mean, $10m?!?! Is he insane or am I just missing something here? Its not like he stands to gain anything by her death. Or does he?

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quote:

Originally posted by street:

For the first time, I find myself in 100% agreement with Jag, ...........eek!!!

OMG!! Maybe I ought to rethink this? LOL

Nah, I will agree to agree with Street, this once....

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

quote:

Originally posted by street:

For the first time, I find myself in 100% agreement with Jag, ...........eek!!!

OMG!! Maybe I ought to rethink this? LOL

Nah, I will agree to agree with Street, this once....


quote:

By SC

I heard somewhere that he was offered $10m to turn her over and he refused. I mean, $10m?!?! Is he insane or am I just missing something here? Its not like he stands to gain anything by her death. Or does he?


I have no idea, but I have my suspicions.

Hmm, 10 million dollars and possibly jail time for attempted murder, or kill her and the one witness is dead and I'm free...... Maybe, possibly, but we'll never know, because she never had rehabilitation long enough to be able to tell us.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

quote:

Originally posted by street:

For the first time, I find myself in 100% agreement with Jag, ...........eek!!!

OMG!! Maybe I ought to rethink this? LOL

Nah, I will agree to agree with Street, this once....


Now I know the end is very near.
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