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AS for anyone else who might actually submit to the same extremist way of thinking that Street employs:

quote:

Usually the neocon response has some

reference to emotional rhetoric, rather than an intelligent base.

Now, does anyone actually have any evidence to back this statement up? Details please. Emotions like loving your country and being angry at those who would destroy her are not the only thing that drive our thinking. But they are what make us so steadfast once a path is chosen.

quote:

First, to understand MY views and position, one must have SOME realization, as to WHAT constitutes a definitive difference

between Communist/marxist ideology and what WE refer to as a FREE democracy.

To claim any parallels to Marxism and contemporary American democracy shows a disturbing ignorance(lack of knowledge) of world history. Is "Marxist" a nice-sounding, convenient word to use while debating, or does anyone REALLY understand what MARXISM is? Go ahead... google "marxism" and see how it compares...

quote:

SINCE the 1st bush administration, the republican party has

tried to push thousands of bills through(some of which this administration

has successfully accomplished) which ARE IDENTICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

to bills introduced in PRE-WW2 Germany, following Hitler winning his

ELECTED position.


Ah, how silly. Clearly someone here is hoping no one will actually know the history of the Nazi rise to power in pre-war Germany and will take this asinine comparison at face value. Sorry. Ain't washing.

To believe for a second that ANY American president could ever be able to turn our Democratic Republic into a facsimile of Fascist Germany proves 2 things:

1) You are completely and utterly ignorant of how our Constitution set up a three-branched government of inter-mingling checks and balances. In other words, the U.S. Supreme court and Congress might have something to say about a President assuming absolute power for himself...

2) You are paranoid. See a doctor.

quote:

This is VERY relevant to the issue, at hand: Prison Abuse. War on the Terrorist....and especially in regard to the INVASION of IRAQ.(TAKE AND RULE BY FORCE METHODOLOGY)


This is interesting. Allowing Iraqi citizens to vote in the first free election of their lives is ruling by force? I don't remember seeing any American names on the ballots. How are we supposed to rule by force when Muslims hold 100% of the government positions?

It is clear that some people will ALWAYS believe the invasion of Iraq was the wrong move. Fine. I personally believe it was not the only possible next move after Afghanistan, but it was one of many reasonable ones. If you do not, that is okay. But does making fantastical claims that one look at current events disproves in about 5 minutes somehow change the fact that we DID invade Iraq? At what point do you stop throwing a hissy fit because something you disagreed with has clearly had MANY positive results, at least as many as all of the negative ones you naysayers continually harp on?

quote:

sorri fella, this is a fight to the death...Im NOT leaving my country ...Im fighting YOU communist loving _____ to the grave!!!!


Hmmm... seems like you ought to be fighting someone who actually is fanatical enough to act out on his threat of killing every "infidel" in America instead of people who don't share your viewpoint. But that's just me.

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Just to add a side note - the President can not declare war for more than 60 days without the approval of Congress. That was set down in 1973 War Powers act. So I just laugh at these people that call it "Bush's War". And for those who think that it only passed because the Republicans have majority - 77 Democrats voted to go ahead with the war. Including previous Presidential hopefull, John Kerry.

It's easy to blame Bush for all the countries troubles, when, in fact, he can't actually do most of the job by himself - by law. Checks and balances keep it that way. I could have sworn I learned about this in middle school or before. It's amazing that so many people forget that when they are "Debating".

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quote:

I disagree. The primary target of the war are Terrorists. We have absolutely no quarrel with the good citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq.


Concerning IRAQ: Which citizens do you not have a quarrel with?...The 51% or so cooperating and supporting the occupation.....or the 47% who oppose it?

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Yeah, except for the fact that we now know how objective and unbiased was the interpretation of intelligence data that ultimately achieved the bipartisan support to Bush's agenda. If you want to remember, then remember everything, not just the fragments who suit your perspective. And frankly, I may assure you that ppl is now overtly laughing with these desesperate attempts by Mr. Bush to establish a link between 9/11 and Saddam. One of the conclusions of the recent Congressional inquiry is that such link is NOT established, nor is it supported by any intelligence agency, be it of US or of foreign origin.

Interesting, since the evidence has been refuted there still hasn't been a motion passed to recall the troops - not even close. If Congress thought the invasion of Iraq was completely under false pretenses, then my friends would be back and not being shot at.

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And by the way, the prime target of this war was Aghanistan. Irak popped up after...

I'll quote what Prez said because I agree...

quote:

The primary target of the war are Terrorists. We have absolutely no quarrel with the good citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq

And as Bush has said - "We'll fight the terrorist wherever they may be."

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quote:

Originally posted by street:

quote:

I disagree. The primary target of the war are Terrorists. We have absolutely no quarrel with the good citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq.


Concerning IRAQ: Which citizens do you not have a quarrel with?...The 51% or so cooperating and supporting the occupation.....or the 47% who oppose it?


I would guess the 51% who are supporting it and those in the 47% who oppose it but aren't taking up arms against our troops.
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Here Prez, is an EXAMPLE, of MY PARANOID imagination...ROFLMAO

Yeah, buddy...this is the SAME free country, I was raised in(just a LITTLE sarcasim there..lol).

People like me Love our FREEDOM enough to confront the growing communist manifistations. We are NOT all complaicent.Some of us are willing to allow ourselves to SEE it, that it may be corrected.

The following EXAMPLE of the attitude and the ideologic position of the NEO_CON(if you want to hide behind the REPUBLICAN title...so be it) is RAMPANT throughout our country TODAY!!!!

Its implication is far reaching and being revealed throughout our Local, State, National,,,AND INTERNATIONAL policies and ACTIONS.

The following is a letter from one of many thousands, I have witnessed over the last 10 years alone:

quote:

Jeffrey,

I am a 50 year old law abiding woman and have been all my life. Although I can get angry as anyone in the entire world can, I still do not cuss and have maybe once said the word " damn" when I was about 20 years old. I do not drink alcohol nor have I ever done an illegal drug.

I am not perfect but I do try to be moral.

Tonight ( October 11, 04) I went to visit my daughter Chanda Leigh Bennett

D.O.B. 11-16-76, in George Allen Jail at 500 Commerce Street in Dallas Texas 75202.

My daughter has been in jail over 8 months and she is non violent plus she has Lyme Disease, kidney failure, cirrhosis of the liver and the jail doctor said she needs a liver transplant, had a heart attack while incrassated June 21, 04 because the jail refused her heart medications to her because the jail nurse told me they could not afford my daughter's medications, mild MR, Bipolar, etc.

Chanda was first put in jail at Rockwall Texas where Rockwall made many bogus charges on her and kept her in jail about 5 months but they transferred her to Dallas jail the very next day after her heart attack but Rockwall has now finally dropped all those bogus charges. But my daughter was on probation in Dallas and because she was put in Rockwall Jail, Rockwall DA and the Rockwall Jail Nurse named Linda Bell ( the nurse who said they could not afford Chanda's meds and she caused Chanda's heart attack) called Dallas Jail, my daughter's court appointed attorney EA Shrea, Dallas DA, and Dallas Judge Lana McDaniel and told them all a lot of lies about Chanda. This made Dallas keep Chanda in jail upon transfer. I have been told by many in the legal profession that Rockwall was not suppose to transfer Chanda to Dallas until they had taken Chanda to Rockwall Court but they did. Chanda has awaited a court date over 8 months and I cannot afford to bond her out.

Chanda would not have ever been on probation in Dallas if I could have gone to that court date in Dallas about a year and a half ago for allegations of a non violent burglary of a habitat but I had a very ill 21 year old baby son, Chip Bennett, who died last year but he was on life support for a month at Baylor Dallas Hospital and he came home for 3 months and he died in his sleep.

I have a 30 year old son named Chad Ray Bennett who has now been in Baylor Hospital in Dallas Texas for 5 days for a brain growth and they have now found another growth. Chad has been having pass out migraines and severe seizures that are not even being controlled by enormous amounts of seizure medications in the hospital.

My kids dad was on life support three times last year from Lyme and was left with major brain damage which I try and care for him also.

Therefore it was hard for me to even leave Chad at the hospital and go to see Chanda tonight in jail and then for all this injustice to happen seemed too much.

I waited in a long line which is a little hard for me because I also have Lyme Disease. This jail does not even have a bathroom and I thought ALL state and federal buildings had to have bathrooms?

I waited and filled out forms to see Chanda and then finally got my turn at the window only to be told I could not see my daughter! I was angry but yet I still talked calmly and I asked " why" can't I see my daughter. The answer floored me! The lady guard named Ran D told me that because I had a tiny, tiny picture of my deceased son on my drivers license that I could not see my daughter. I told the lady named Ran D " very sternly" but yet I did not holler, that this was a picture of my son who had passed away last year and that I had been coming there over 3 months to see my daughter with that same tiny picture on my license. Ran D still said that I could not see my daughter because of me having this picture of my deceased son, she told me to leave the building. I then tore my deceased sons picture off my license and I showed her and told her I tore my deceased sons picture off my license. She then said I am having you arrested. I then told her I wanted to talk to her boss. She said, " I am the boss". I told her that I wanted to talk to her boss. She then said she was the highest boss of the entire George Allen Jail. The male guard stood up to arrest me and at that point I had my step granddaughter with me and I left but I did turn around and tell her... without cussing that she would be fired for this. I was just glad I held myself to not blow up but she thought this was too terrible for me to question her even though I did tell her I still have " freedom of speech". She let me know that I do not have "freedom of speech".

I then went downstairs on the elevators to the 1st floor and I asked the guard at the entrance who was the highest person on duty that was the boss. This was guards name was Henderson and he was very nice and he made a few telephone calls for me to find out who the boss on duty was. He told me it was Sgt. Herman. I then talked on the telephone to Sgt. Herman. Herman asked me to tell him the entire story and I did. At the end of me telling him the story he then asked me " if I told Ran D that she was going to be fired for this". I told him that I believe I did tell her she could get fired for her actions. Herman then said... I heard everything you said to her at the time I told her and he said, I was the guy standing behind her. I said so... I have " freedom of speech" and I never raised my voice to her nor did I ever cuss her. He then told me to get out of his building and " to have a nice life"! If I am not mistaken.... this is not his building but instead it belongs to us.... the public! Has there been a change in law in America that I am not aware of? Is our government buildings owned by the guards that work in them and have we " lost our freedom of speech? I have heard in my 50 years of life that the guards and police officers in Texas are the boss and if they are questioned or doubted they arrest the people who question them but I learned it to be a " fact" tonight and although I have heard this all my life, I was still alarmed to say the least! It would have been different if I had been cussing at them or screaming but I was not doing either!

Will the tens of thousands of advocates on my e mail address book please take a moment and call Dallas Commissioners and any media you know and tell them about this?

EVERY DALLAS COMMISSIONER WILL RECEIVE ANY FAX SENT TO THEM AT FAX NUMBER: 214-653-6586 and a very caring commissioner is: John Wylie Price at telephone #: 214-821-8810 and 214-653-6671 and 214-653-2839 and 214-653-2616

Please also send your letters of concern about this illegal action done to me by not allowing " freedom of speech" to all reporters you know and I thank you all so much!

Brenda Pitts Bennett

701 Meadowdale


Yeah, my warmongering countymen, couldnt possibly mistreat islamic SUSPECTS, while holding them isolated from the Geneva Convention, or any other regulation of law, or representation.

YOU need to wakeup Prez, I cant wait till you or one of your family runs into a SITUATION. THEN, you can preach ZERO Tolorance,and ZERO Flexability, with use of excessive and cohersive force.

PURE COMMUNIST ideology applied throughout the whole of this whole administration's actions, and its republican following....blatantly being applied down to the local levels of law enforcement upon it's own citizens.

Why people like you have a need to blind themselves to ANY realization, that the ideologic changes even exist, and follow the least path of resistance to our mutual demise.....to THAT, i admit being clueless.

The ONE point, most ALL bush followers fail to recognize, is this.

ALL information is useful when being presented in an objective format. That which is being presented in a Subjective format is impartially biased and has better than a 50% chance of being a LIE fabricated to mislead.

To IGNORE and totally dismiss the Obsevations, and testimonies of Professors, Scientist and common citizens from throughout the whole of the population, as FANTASY, Fabrication, or PARANOIA ...when placed against the PROPAGANDANIZED PUBLIC RELATIONS RELEASES from the white house, is pure stupidity....far removed from ignorance(lack of knowledge)

Sir, I dispute the validity of much I read, but I objectively weigh the whole of the information.

Paranoia, is justifiable in some cases...is it not?

In this PANIC to kill "TERRORIST", as a cure all; and under the blanket, that any who oppose us is against us..(thus supportive of those few 9/11 criminals and their few comrads); This Country has become the DEMON they themselves FEAR.

THAT Demon, is the ideologic views which, do in fact, run parallel to the COMMUNIST/Marxist ideology. The Bush Administratin is progressivly implimenting the SAME Socio-communistic ideology of:

1)RULE BY FORCE

2)Abolition of Privacy

3)Removal of Govenment Accountability

4)Abolition of FREE SPEACH

5)REMOVAL of the "FLEXIBILITY" within the 3-F

rule when implimenting JUSTICE(ZERO TOLORANCE

MENTALITY)

6)Abolition of FREEDOM of choice, within American Citizen's PERSONAL lives,and by ENFORCEMENT OF LAW.

These are some very SIMPLE and realistic conditions, which have tons of viable proof, that they exist.

There is no justification on earth, to dilute the freedoms that this country was founded to protect.

If one concocts justifications in 2005, which negates our basic constitutional protections,and one impliments, and supports solutions, which run parallel to basic MARXIST ideology...one is an ENEMY to all REAL Americans and everything this country was founded and for which it stands.

Pretty simple really...NOT unfounded parinoia; nor, is it unsubstantiated emotional rhetoric.

Its TRUTH applied at the most basic level of understanding... nothing more... nothing less.

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quote:

In this PANIC to kill "TERRORIST", as a cure all; and under the blanket, that any who oppose us is against us..(thus supportive of those few 9/11 criminals and their few comrads); This Country has become the DEMON they themselves FEAR.

One may want to take into account that all the things that happened after 9.11 may be intended by Osama Bin Laden.All these quick victorys(afghanistan,iraq)were on the surface impportant,but the fear,that everyone could be a terrorist,is poisoning the western nations.Once considered an "idol" in things human rights,morality and liberty,it is the people's fear,enforced by demagogic media,that lets them cry for abolishing every of these specific features,or distort them.And it is IMO regression if people are for example being judged by their religion/being judged by their fundamentalist minority.And if someone will say that it goes all about terrorism,not about religon,then please tell me about your first thoughts when you hear about countries having the islam as their state religion.It is for sure difficult to keep calm when seing all these innocent people killed everyday because they were "infidels",but their must be a reason for people doing that(except the human liability to violence).And if there's a cause,then there are means to prevention.

Sorry for the rather off-topic post,but I felt it was yet quite approbiate in here.

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Street,

I promise I read all of your post, so if it seems like I'm ignoring it or leaving some of your points unanswered please do not assume I am conceding. It was just...long.

Firstly, if that letter is a legitimate representation of the events of the prison, then the people responsible should be thrown in prison as well. There is no excuse for such treatment. I will state that I see no equivalency whatsoever between Americans in the U.S. justice system and the terrorists who currently inhabit Club Gitmo. Having said that, I do not condone torture, as it would bring us down to the level of those murderous animals we are trying to protect our citizens from, and, imo, that should not be. Where I believe we stand on opposite sides is:

1) What defines a terrorist

2) What defines mistreatment

3) What sources we each consider credible

Needless to say there will be more points of contention, but on the current topic, I think this is a fair assessment. We could go into each in detail , but I have a feeling how the argument would play out, as I have debated many times with people on your "side of the fence", so to speak.

quote:

YOU need to wakeup Prez, I cant wait till you or one of your family runs into a SITUATION. THEN, you can preach ZERO Tolorance,and ZERO Flexability, with use of excessive and cohersive force.

Funny you should say that. I have been thinking something VERY similar about YOU since we first locked horns. You see, I have been wondering how you would feel if YOUR dad was in the WTC 2 building during 9/11/01. I had always been kind of indifferent to worldwide terrorism prior to this (admittedly to my shame now) but let me tell you, having your dad (who missed being ground into dust by the collapsing tower by seconds) detail for you the horrors no one should ever have to witness first hand does something to you. I mean, this is MY dad. Not somebody else's.

2 points:

1) I tell you this because I think it is relevant to the discussion, NOT because I want your or anyone else's pity.

2) It emphatically puts all of this so-called abuse and these so-called atrocities in perspective (for me, anyway)

Does this make me biased? Probably. Does it make me blindly want to lash out at anyone wearing a turban or carrying a Koran? Well, to be perfectly honest, it did at first. But unbridled anger has long since given way to grim determination to do anything in my power to support any president who puts the war on terror in the forefront of his or her administration. What I find ironic is that is this war on terror that you consider a war of agression and imposed rule by force that has taught me that there is a difference between a terrorist and a muslim loyalist, and not all of Islam's followers are the enemy.

To counter your "warmongering" claim, I can only state for the hundredth time that I HATE WAR. I am not blind to what it reaps. It should always be a last resort. But I could not disagree with you any more vehemently than I do when you claim that the Iraq war was wrong, and that Bush is a Hitler clone for waging it. Where is your eveidence? How can you believe such an awful thing without unimpeachable proof? More to the point, how can you think that Bush AND his entire administration AND the entire upper echelon of the American military all are in on what you inexplicably believr to be a modern day coup? DO you have so little faith in your fellow Americans?

I would sure like to know what drives a man to such suspicion and bitterness.

As a final point I will add that I do NOT suggest that Iraq had a major role in 9/11, as you have constantly accused me of being "confused" about, but terrorism is terrorism, regardless of which country is supporting and funding it.

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quote:

There is no justification on earth, to dilute the freedoms that this country was founded to protect.

Just to add to my previous points, I must say here is something that you and I profoundly agree upon. I take issue with the Patriot Act, but unlike you, I view it as more of an unfortunate and ill-conceived knee jerk reaction than part of a larger agenda on the part of our government. Irregardless, certain items need clarification and adjusting in order to avoid being in danger of conflicting with the Constitution of the United States.

quote:

ALL information is useful when being presented in an objective format. That which is being presented in a Subjective format is impartially biased and has better than a 50% chance of being a LIE fabricated to mislead.

Excellent point. It also happens to be the reason I discount almost all of the sources you cite as proving your point. Mainstream media (BBC included) have long since lost any credibilty with me and many others due to their blatant elitist agendas.

And if you put forth Amnesty International as an unbiased source considering their blatant anti-Americanism, I might just laugh...

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I too read your entire post, and please do not think I ignore many of the points, as i believe we have comon understanding where there will be no relaxation of stance.

quote:

But I could not disagree with you any more vehemently than I do when you claim that the Iraq war was wrong, and that Bush is a Hitler clone for waging it. Where is your eveidence? How can you believe such an awful thing without unimpeachable proof? More to the point, how can you think that Bush AND his entire administration AND the entire upper echelon of the American military all are in on what you inexplicably believr to be a modern day coup? DO you have so little faith in your fellow Americans?


you misunderstand, my friend.

Anytime there is an ideologic principle being held within the "base current" of some geo-political movement. The GROUP of individual's who are inserting their actions, decisions, and ideaologic agendas....create an ENTITY. This ENTITY takes on a life of it's own. Just as is with Corperations....neighborhoods evolving into cities...and especially churchs.

The IDEOLOGIC base, is that which ultimately guides the destination of that "Group Entity"'s

path.

When one begins seeing ACTIVE implimentation of the ideologic base, running parallel;....by observation of the manifested EVIDENCE..(patriot act is but one small small piece)...;with the ideologic base which drove preivious ENTITIES(parties, governments, church groups, huge conglomerates,,etc. etc.), and in what direction they did follow.....then one realizes, there IS an ACTIVE movement which may not be conciously conspiratorial, but never-the-less: VERY REAL.

quote:

Excellent point. It also happens to be the reason I discount almost all of the sources you cite as proving your point. Mainstream media (BBC included) have long since lost any credibilty with me and many others due to their blatant elitist agendas.

And if you put forth Amnesty International as an unbiased source considering their blatant anti-Americanism, I might just laugh...


Then, YOu MUST ignore ALLL MEDIA, and ALLL organizatioal independent reports...or you are believing a perverted version of the truth....

The Pendulum is swinging in BOTH directions, or its not swinging at all!!

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quote:

Originally posted by street:

The Pendulum is swinging in BOTH directions, or its not swinging at all!!

And right now it is swinging BACK to the right, problem is, how do you stop the damned thing, before it swings WAY out to the right.

It swung WAY to the left, just before WWII, and now it is swinging back, the problem is, that most of the socialist crap that got put in there, REMAINS!! and when it swings further, then it will add it's own disasters to the mix.

We now have a mixture of socialism, and... something else, it is NOT fascism, YET, BUT, it is indeed swinging that direction.

Neither is sustainable, the limits put in the constitution created a sustainable government, but we are so far OUTSIDE those limits, in BOTH directions, that it is pretty whacked out, AND unsustainable.

I AGREE with the Iraq war, I AGREE with SSI reform, BUT, I DISAGREE with immigration policy as it now stands, I disagree with SOME of the patriot act, and I wish to see the country go one of 2 ways.

1: BACK to the constitutional limits

OR 2: So far BEYOND those limits, that the sheeple of this country FINALLY wake up, and TAKE IT BACK.

I see 2 as the ONLY option, so when I see the USSC do stupid crap like the emminent domain, I have a real hard time, should I get PO's because it so far BEYOND the constitutional limits that it is INSANE, or should I rejoice, because MAYBE, just maybe, some of the sheeple in this country will start to pay attention?

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quote:

Then, YOu MUST ignore ALLL MEDIA, and ALLL organizatioal independent reports...or you are believing a perverted version of the truth....


No, I don't completely ignore them. To give an analogy, I watch CNN/MSNBC/BBC the way you might listen to Rush Limbaugh - You know he is going to cover the relevant topics of the day, but while listening you remain keenly aware of his conservative bias and take everything he says from within that context. For me, the bias in mainstream media is WAY to the left, and the "news" they report is only the news that supports THEIR agenda. Anything that runs counter to what message they are trying to convey gets skimmed over or dropped completely.

If I trust ANY large media outlet to provide a reasonable objective picture, it would be FOX News. They still aren't great, but they are imo the most unbiased of the bunch. Many left-leaning people will scoff and say that they are conservatively biased, but the truth is they SEEM conservative only relative to other leftist media. Actually, they sit about in the center. The most important difference is they make a clear distinction between editorialist OPINIONS and "news".

As far as "independent" reports, well lets just say that WHO is doing the reporting has much more bearing on whether I believe a story than WHAT is reported. I keep notes on the track records of a lot of these "independent" sources.

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