Legalisation

[Cruis.In]

Ok in the general chatter forum I was reminded again that some countries have legalised drug use for certain drugs... because they couldn't beat it etc...

The ridiculous notion that you legalise something because it is a problem, is so (cursewords endless) ridiculous... so I was thinking of alot of other problems we can't get rid of so we can legalise them too right? Same principle. Read on.

ok I have a few more suggestions on things we should legalise... I mean it would solve all our problems,

1) Murder

We should legalise murder, because alot of people are doing it, just like smoking pot, and because we can't see any end in sight to people murdering people, just like we were discouraged in the pot fight, so if you don't like this idea, we could give it a condition, you can only murder someone if you have a legit reason to do so, such as being involved in a dispute with them over something, like if someone steps on your foot in a dance floor or hits your car in an accident, you can murder them.

2) Shooting people at will.

Well alot of gangs and gang bangers shoot around the place alot, and it's a problem that isn't going away, so we'll stop trying, and legalise it so that you are allowed to seriously maim other people because you don't like them and are not part of your gang. And also again if you get in a disagreement with someone, but don't feel like killing them, even though that is alright with the new law, you can just shoot them in the leg or something.

3)Theft

here is another out of hand problem with dishonest people in all walks of life, from the petty ones to the Martha Stewarts? Anyway we should make it legal to steal only up to a certain limit in any one time, say about 20,000 dollars is ok, but anymore and that won't be tolerated

4) Robbery

Another big problem, people are robbed everyday and violently, so we'll make it legal to rob but you must show the person your face, so that when they see you again they can murder you under the new law, where murder is alright.

A few more and we would have a crimeless society according to these new laws, don't you agree?

Can't beat em join em right?

[Wolfheart]

All of the above is harmful to someone else,drug is harmful only to the user.I think people should be able to do anything with their body as long as it doesnt harm anyone else.

[Guest Remo Williams]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolfheart:

All of the above is harmful to someone else,drug is harmful only to the user.I think people should be able to do anything with their body as long as it doesnt harm anyone else.

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I agree, the only problem is though drug users usually end up hurting someone else to get the drug, since they can't hold a job to buy them on their own.

[John Prezioso]

I have lived in 4 major cities in my life, and it is a shame what the drug problem does to the inner city.

[Darkling]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolfheart:

All of the above is harmful to someone else,drug is harmful only to the user.I think people should be able to do anything with their body as long as it doesnt harm anyone else.

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Are people Islands that don't interact with others?

While I agree that certain drugs like Marijuana are similar in effect with Alchahol, ALL controled substanced cause problems for both the users and anyone that happens to be in contact with that person's life.

When I was 17 I was hit by a drunk driver and almost killed. Ended up 2 weeks in Intensive Care, 450 stitches JUST ON MY FACE, damaged pancreas, damaged liver, destroyed spleen and 4" split INSIDE my stomach which, of course required Major surgury to fix and the lack of food while my stomach healed made me look like a haulocost survivor after a few weeks.

But of course, he was only affecting himself right, what's a drink / snort / puff / drag / injection / shot, whatever. He's not hurting anyone right.

His Kids are OK right?

His wife is OK right?

His Job is OK right?

His parents are OK Right?

His friends are OK Right?

It only affects the user, no one else... NOT!!!

[Grizzle]

Darkling - That really sucks, glad you're still with us though.

Perhaps the only logical solution is to have harsher penalties for people who cause harm to others while under the influence or as a result of attempting to aquire their drug of choice. But even then we won't stop or solve all of the negative aspects of drug use/abuse. We tried that with prohibition and it actually increased crime.

We have laws to prevent all sorts of irresponsible behavior, but when you really get down to it, they are ineffective. Trying to legislate behavior just does not work. The truth is there is no way to legislate safety either, no matter how much we try.

Life is chaotic and hazardous. We take our lives into our own hands every single day and if one thing doesn't kill or harm us something else will. From the moment we are born our bodies are subject to all sorts of destructive forces and as simple as it sounds what is life but the process of dying?

Sounds pretty bleak huh? Hedge your bets, cross your fingers and do your best to enjoy the time you have.

[Guest $iLk]

Stupidest anti-drug argument EVER.

The fact of the matter is that billions of dollars are pissed away imprisoning citizens and tarnishing the legal records of people who have committed victimless crimes.

And I speak as a conservative who has had close dealings with family member's lives being destroyed as the result of drug use. Drugs being illegal does not stop the problem - and with over half of our prison system crowded by non-violent criminals serving hard time with murderers while rich CEO's basically get sent to home imprisonment + probation is a big problem with our country.

Legalize everything in regards to drug use. Regulate and tax it. The immediate effect would be a drop in organized crime, including border incursions from Mexico transporting these products which have 1000% markup profit because they are illegal.

The quickest way to win the war on drugs would be to legalize drugs and tax them. Follow up by spending 1/10 of what we are spending fighting the war on drugs on rehab programs.

Legalize prostitution while you are at it also. Regulate it the same as the porn industry is regulated with STD screening, etc.

It would boost the economy - and keep plenty of room in jail for true offenders. Also - would save $30k per year per prisoner.

[LostInSpace]

I came across these statistics. Although they are a tad dated, I found it quite interesting:

quote:

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Last month use of cannabis (marijuana) by high school seniors:

18.1% in the Netherlands (1996);

23.7% in the U.S. (1997).

(Sources: The Trimbos Institute, Amsterdam, the Netherlands; Monitoring the Future Survey, University of Michigan and White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)

Any lifetime use (prevalence) of cannabis by older teens (1994):

30% in the Netherlands;

38% in the U.S.

(Sources: Center for Drug Research, University of Amsterdam; Monitoring the Future Survey, University of Michigan and White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)

Recent (last month) use of cannabis by 15 year olds (in 1995):

15% in the Netherlands;

16% in the U.S.;

24% in the U.K.

(Sources: Trimbos Institute, Amsterdam, the Netherlands; Monitoring the Future Survey, University of Michigan and White House Office of National Drug Control Policy; Council of Europe, ESPAD Report)

Any lifetime use of cannabis by 15 year olds (in 1995):

29% in the Netherlands;

34% in the U.S.;

41% in the U.K.

(Sources: Netherlands Institute of Health and Addiction, U.S. National Institute for Drug Abuse; Council of Europe, ESPAD Report)

Heroine addicts as a percentage of population (in 1995):

160 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;

430 per 100,000 in the U.S.

(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport;

White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)

Murder rate as a percentage of population (in 1996):

1.8 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;

8.22 in the U.S.

(Sources: Netherlands Bureau of Statistics; White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)

Incarceration rate as a percentage of population (1997):

73 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;

645 per 100,000 in the U.S.

(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Justice; White House Office of National Drug Control Strategy)

Crime-related deaths as a percentage of population:

1.2 per 100,000 in the Netherlands (1994);

8.2 per 100,000 in the U.S. (1995).

(Sources: World Health Organization; Uniform Crime Reports, U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation)

Per capita spending on drug-related law enforcement:

$27 per capita in the Netherlands;

$81 per capita in the U.S.

(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Justice; White House Office of National Drug Control Strategy)

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[Grizzle]

quote:

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Originally posted by $iLk:

Stupidest anti-drug argument

EVER

.

The fact of the matter is that billions of dollars are pissed away imprisoning citizens and tarnishing the legal records of people who have committed victimless crimes.

And I speak as a conservative who has had close dealings with family member's lives being destroyed as the result of drug use. Drugs being illegal does not stop the problem - and with over half of our prison system crowded by non-violent criminals serving hard time with murderers while rich CEO's basically get sent to home imprisonment + probation is a big problem with our country.

Legalize everything in regards to drug use. Regulate and tax it. The immediate effect would be a drop in organized crime, including border incursions from Mexico transporting these products which have 1000% markup profit because they are illegal.

The quickest way to win the war on drugs would be to legalize drugs and tax them. Follow up by spending 1/10 of what we are spending fighting the war on drugs on rehab programs.

Legalize prostitution while you are at it also. Regulate it the same as the porn industry is regulated with STD screening, etc.

It would boost the economy - and keep plenty of room in jail for true offenders. Also - would save $30k per year per prisoner.

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$ilk, You don't post much anymore and I've wondered why, but I gotta say I couldn't agree with you more!

[Guest]

$iLk and Grizzle, we actually agree on something Grizzle, and $iLk I am unsurprised at.

YOU UP the cost of doing something criminal when on drugs, but legalize it, tax it, and regulate it.

We have lost MANY liberties because of the socalled "drug war", and we are losing BILLIONS, and the drug Czars are MAKING Billions.

We need to turn it around and make it impossible for drug czars to make money off it, and make it so the government makes money off of it instead.

We'd be out of debt in 4 years...

[Wolfheart]

quote:

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Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolfheart:

All of the above is harmful to someone else,drug is harmful only to the user.I think people should be able to do anything with their body as long as it doesnt harm anyone else.

---

Are people Islands that don't interact with others?

While I agree that certain drugs like Marijuana are similar in effect with Alchahol, ALL controled substanced cause problems for both the users and anyone that happens to be in contact with that person's life.

When I was 17 I was hit by a drunk driver and almost killed. Ended up 2 weeks in Intensive Care, 450 stitches JUST ON MY FACE, damaged pancreas, damaged liver, destroyed spleen and 4" split INSIDE my stomach which, of course required Major surgury to fix and the lack of food while my stomach healed made me look like a haulocost survivor after a few weeks.

But of course, he was only affecting himself right, what's a drink / snort / puff / drag / injection / shot, whatever. He's not hurting anyone right.

His Kids are OK right?

His wife is OK right?

His Job is OK right?

His parents are OK Right?

His friends are OK Right?

It only affects the user, no one else... NOT!!!

---

If someone doesnt know when to drink(or use drugs) and so hurts people,THAT would be a crime.The accident you mention is not the fault of the alcahol but some idiot who doesnt know what to do when.

Lets say the guy wasnt drunk but busy with something else(something that distracts him like alcahol did),the accident would still happen.Lets say that "something" was a cellphone,would you say we should make using cellphones a crime,too?Would you want to ban cellphones?Or should we ban using cellphone *while driving*?Just like being drunk while driving is a crime..Just like driving under affect of drugs should be a crime even if using drugs is legalised..

[LostInSpace]

quote:

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Originally posted by JUDGExKTF:

Well I think the figures of LostInSpace speak for them self. The way I see it there are two possible sollutions to the drugs problem:

-Legalize it, as the figures LostInSpace presented this works beter then banning it.

-Forced drug rehab, like in Scandinavia.

But just banning the drugs and spending milions of dollars of detaining people, tracking them down, etc. is just plain stupid.

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Here's a little more current info: White house drug policy

quote:

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Drug Use Costs to Society

In 2000, Americans spent an estimated $36 billion on cocaine, $11 billion on marijuana, $10 billion on heroin, $5.4 billion on methamphetamine, and $2.4 billion on other illegal substances. Projected estimates indicate that approximately 260 metric tons of cocaine and 13.3 metric tons of heroin were consumed by U.S. drug users during 2000.

In 1992, the overall cost of drug abuse to society was approximately $102 billion. The projected overall cost reached $160.7 billion in 2000

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So much for this so called drug war. It's a joke and wastes tax payer money. It's like the perverbial "Money Pit". Legalize and tax it and have done with the issue. This will also have the added benefit of protecting law enforcement lives:

quote:

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Law Enforcement Officers Killed

FBI data indicate that 51 Federal, State, and local law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty during 2000. Of these 51 officers, 3 were killed while investigating drug-related situations. From 1991 to 2000, a total of 33 law enforcement officers were killed as a result of drug-related matters. Fifteen of the 65 people identified for killing law enforcement officers in 2000 had prior arrests for violating drug laws.

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[LostInSpace]

Akk, time ran out.

Here's the clincher:

quote:

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The requested drug control budget amount for FY 2004 is $11.7 billion

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And it keeps going up:

(in billions)

1998: 8,179.0

1999: 9,760.1

2000: 10,703.0

2001: 10,401.4

2002: 11,485.0

2003: 11,239.0 (hmm, it went down a little)

Think of what better use that money could be put to if drugs were legalized and think of the tax revenue from it.

Perhaps some of our Netherland friends here can help us with the statistics from their neck of the woods since I'm having trouble finding an english page for the Netherlands Ministry of Justice.

[ 07-31-2005, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: LostInSpace ]

[Cruis.In]

I had a friend that always said legalise it tax it and the government sells it. 10 cents and the druglords are out of business.

And this is not just an anti drug statement. This is an anti give up statement. If you give up on something because it's too big of a problem, then where are you? This is just the beginning of what's to come.

victimless crime eh, I used to believe that once too.

[Guest $iLk]

Cruis.In - have you ever considered that the 'problem' is one that was created by our government?

Changing the dynamics of the problem is hardly 'giving up' - I consider it a more efficient allocation of resources in dealing with the problem.

And as I've said - I've had cousins, my ex in-laws, etc. who have had their lives destroyed through drug use. And drugs being illegal didn't stop them from doing it.

[Cruis.In]

nothing being illegal never stops anyone from doing anything.

[Guest $iLk]

But it sure as hell makes us piss $$$billions$$$ down a black hole with no return on investment.

I believe that money could be better spent (and we could actually make money) by legalizing and funding rehabilitation.

Still make it socially inacceptable - so that people couldn't get decent jobs if they do drugs - and you would find that there wouldn't be a huge increase in useage.

As the Libertarians say - ending prohibition didn't turn us into a nation of alcoholics. Roughly the same amount of people percentage-wise drink alcohol during and after prohibition.

[Cruis.In]

if you legalise one, then legalise all.

[Guest $iLk]

I'm advocating legalization of all 'victimless' crimes. Regulation/taxation + using proceeds to fund rehabilitation centers. It would pay for itself.

[Cruis.In]

who dertmines what is victimless, you?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cruis.In:

who dertmines what is victimless, you?

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It's called common sense, if it involves an individual person doing something TO themselves, and hurts no one else in the process, then it is victimless. They have CHOSEN to do this to themselves.

Once they hurt or commit a crime against someone else, THEN it is whole other ball of wax.

Geez, aren't you just the snippy one this week.

[Guest $iLk]

Like Jaguar said, and I'll paraphrase:

In the spirit of rights endowed upon us by our creator, your rights end where someone else's begin.

So long as you are only hurting yourself, you are more than welcome to do so as a matter of personal responsibility. The moment what you are doing infringes upon someone else - it is no longer victimless.

In your examples: murder, robbery, violence, theft - all of these are choices that affect other people directly.

Me sitting at home smoking a joint hurts no one - and if I were arrested, put in jail for 30 days - that is $2500 that is not being taxed that month to pay for the cost of government, instead - the government has to spend $2500 for that month to house me - not including salaries of guards, etc. for the prison as well as time/money spent in a court case. In the end - drug use, like gun use - are victimless crimes against the State - not individuals.

You are being regressive in your approach to drug abuse. I believe that we could combat the problem more efficiently by not pissing $$$billions$$$ away in order to 'feel good' about being 'against drugs'. Because that's all you are really accomplishing. People go from jail, to drug abuse, back to jail - and are never given the rehab they could have been given instead of giving them the screw-over in the prison system.

If we legalized/taxed drugs - we could use the money to pay for rehabilitation - and relieve John Q. Taxpayer of the burden of feeding/housing non-violent criminals.

This would help solve the real problem of drug abuse, instead of focusing on victimless crimes which hurt no one but the individual and state policy.

[Guest Remo Williams]

quote:

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In the end - drug use, like gun use - are victimless crimes against the State - not individuals.

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I must have missed something in your post, but I don't understand how using a gun on someone is a victimless crime unless you meant using a gun for hunting, or self defense.

[Guest $iLk]

Obviously I wasn't referring to murder/violent crime as evidenced in my post. But gun ownership in itself is considered a crime in California in some instances - just because the gun 'looks cool'.

[John Prezioso]

There are 2 main trains of thought on the drug legalization issue as I can tell.

1) On the one hand, there are those who believe that making drug legal would mostly de-claw the brutal drug cartels, and would have minimal effect on society, since people not doing drugs right now are not pre-disposed to drug use and therefore would not start once made legal. The current illegality of drugs makes criminals out of otherwise harmless, innocent people. Legalization would go largely unnoticed by the vast majority of Americans.

2) On the other side, the legalization of drugs would be just another sign of the degradation of our society. True, on an individual level, the only victim is the user, but the overall effect on society would be wholly detrimental, as more people would turn to drugs, have their lives ruined, and become derelicts, transients, and, worse still, criminals. Unemployment, poverty, and crime would rise sharply, and society would suffer as a result.

Regardless of which side you may fall, it would be hard for anyone to argue that we have gotten our money's worth out of what our government spends annually on the war on drugs. Put simply, the way we are fighting the war on drugs is not only NOT working, but it may actually be making things worse.

For what it is worth, I tend to lean towards the latter category.