In July 2002 I said the following on Iraq...

[Guest $iLk]

Was I right or wrong?

I am extremely Conservative... in the sense of Barry Goldwater or Ronald Reagan's worldview. The 'neo-Conservative' movement has hijacked this country - and is tarnishing the ideas that made America the shining city on a hill.

As Nancy Reagan once said, and I paraphrase: "The ideals endure today because they are no less right today than they were yesterday."

Conservatives believe in lower taxes, controlled federal spending, smaller government, personal liberty, responsible border policy, and even the most die-hard conservative believes in the need for a 'helping hand' for our fellow man in need.

Our ideas are pure, but have been hijacked by the Republicans in Congress. We shouldn't accept a doctrine of pre-emptive war. And while "spreading freedom" is a catchy phrase - I don't think the founding fathers would approve of the United States setting up women in Iraq to suffer under totalitarian militant Islamist rule.

The G.O.P. is in control of 2/3 of the branches of government - and honestly government has grown in size and scope. And that would be excusable if we were fighting the "war on terror." But there is no war on terrorism. The war on terrorism ended when our priorities switched to pork spending, and greater levels of discretionary spending since Jimmy Carter.

Where are the statesmen today? Where are those who understand the dangers of a large government? Where are those who seek to uphold the Constitution? Where are those selfless representatives who work for our interests instead of corporations and special interest groups?

America has been on a downward spiral... and I don't think anyone has the guts to stand up and proclaim these self-evident truths about those Republicans in Congress. Party before country I suppose. Our Republic suffers so long as these two parties are in control.

[John Prezioso]

quote:

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America has been on a downward spiral...

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Aren't there enough chicken littles running around already?

There could not be in this world a bigger Reagan fan than me. I don't believe in having heroes, but he is as close to one as I'll ever have. And I can confidently say that he would have been in support of the war in Iraq. He would probably made better decisions,and been more willing to admit mistakes, but he still would have approved.

"None of the four wars that have occurred in my lifetime have happened because America is too strong... It is weakness that encourages our enemies to make mistaken judgements."

Ronald Reagan.

[Guest $iLk]

You wouldn't have thought Reagan would have supported it sending ol' Don Rumsfield down to shake hands and sell weapons to Saddam Hussein.

[Guest $iLk]

And how can you call yourself a Conservative when the leading Conservative/Civil Libertarian think-tanks in this country - Citizens Against Government Waste, the Cato Institute, and the Heritage Foundation aren't thrilled about the behavior of this President?

GOP.com is not the only source for news.

[Guest $iLk]

"A people free to choose will always choose peace."

- Ronald Reagan

"Don't be afraid to see what you see."

- Ronald Reagan

"Facts are stubborn things."

- Ronald Reagan

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same."

- Ronald Reagan

"History teaches that war begins when governments believe the price of aggression is cheap."

- Ronald Reagan

"Let us ask ourselves; "What kind of people do we think we are?""

- Ronald Reagan

"People do not make wars; governments do."

- Ronald Reagan

[Eclipse]

Iraq in my mind a a touchy subject. Is it a preemptive war or just a second theatre hotspot in a new "cold war?" In some reguards I would consider that it is not a preemptive war in that war has already been declared on the US by Bin Laden and his ilk. True, there has been no formal declaration of war given by Al Quaeda but the 9/11 attacks appear as echoes of the pearl harbor attack in 1941. As the Japanese attack then, the attack on the twin towers itself has become Al Quaeda's declaration of war. The difference today is that we have no defined territory or empire to focus our attention. Terror is a people without borders and a race bound only by ideology; a hydra that does not follow the the rules or borders of "civilized" warfare. It is an enemy that trancends the physical battlefield and will not nor can be completely eliminated by the armed forces. I have no doubts that wherever the head is reared our military will be fully capable of severing it, but as it falls another emerges in a different theatre. This is a new force, a crossroads between modern war as it has been defined since WWII and a emerging ideological war. It is this "hybrid" war that I believe we are currently attempting to adapt to. As we grapple with it mistakes will be made and setbacks will happen. Is Iraq a mistake? Only the future will tell us that. Whatever the outcome may be, history will judge us harshly if we fail to complete what we have begun.

[Guest $iLk]

Saddam nor Iraq had anything to do with September 11, 2001.

I fully support our actions in Afghanistan which were a true and just response to the 9/11 attacks against a country harboring the mastermind of said attacks.

But yes, I agree that we cannot fail to complete the job in Iraq... although I believe that it appears that we are only setting up another tin-pot dictator and putting women's rights 50 years back in the region.

[Kevin Trotter]

I couldnt agree more with $ilk. The type of conservatism that predominates today is a threat to political freedom in this country. Goldwater is spinning in his grave, as are (as I have said ,many times,) my personal hero Dwight D Eisenhower. Though I am what some of you consider a liberal, I think my belefs are more moderate than liberal and that the new right has so narrowly defined itself that there is no room for moderates under their tent. The war was justified by a LIE, and that LIE has soured many people on what the true reasons were.Had the President laid out the real reasons why we needed to invade he would not be in the pickle he is in right now.He didnt do that because IMO he didnt trust the electorate enough to grace us with the truth.

[Guest $iLk]

I never left the Republican Party, the Republican Party left me.

[Eclipse]

I never said he or Iraq did $ilk. Iraq is part of the attempt to grapple with a new kind of war. It is a ripple in history caused by 9/11 no matter if Iraq and Sadaam were involved with 9/11 itself.

[Guest $iLk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Eclipse:

I never said he or Iraq did $ilk. Iraq is part of the attempt to grapple with a new kind of war. It is a ripple in history caused by 9/11 no matter if Iraq and Sadaam were involved with 9/11.

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The invasion and occupation of Iraq was pioneered by the Project for a New American Century well before the attacks of September 11, 2001. The PNAC statement of principles was signed by Vice President Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfield back in the 1990's.

All are current members of the Bush inner-circle. The term "neo-Conservative" reflects those who believe in using the American military to shape foreign policy rather than following the Constitution or precedent in our nation's history.

It was not caused by 9/11. 9/11 just gave them the excuse to begin putting the PNAC charter into action.

[Kevin Trotter]

$ilk is correct. This policy of preemption was thought up by Wolfowitz, Bill Cristol, Rumsfield and pitched to the first Bush administration who having a much keener sense of foreign policy than his dullard of a son.

[Guest $iLk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Race Bannon IV:

$ilk is correct. This policy of preemption was thought up by Wolfowitz, Bill Cristol, Rumsfield and pitched to the first Bush administration who having a much keener sense of foreign policy than his dullard of a son.

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"This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating."

ÔÇö George W Bush

as quoted by the New York Daily News, April 23, 2002

[Guest $iLk]

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace."

ÔÇö George W Bush

Washington, D.C. June 18, 2002

"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength."

- 1984, George Orwell

[Eclipse]

I concede the point that PNAC has been seeking the possibility of using military intervention in Iraq since 1998. However, there is much more dynmaics involced with the declaring war than 3 men pitching the idea to the President. Last I checked any incursions over 90 days(IIRC) and declarations of war must be authorized by congress. Would you have me believe that all of congress was "in on it?" 9/11 is still the catalyst that created the climate that allowed the invasion of Iraq to take place.

[Guest $iLk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Eclipse:

I concede the point that PNAC has been seeking the possibility of using military intervention in Iraq since 1998. However, there is much more dynmaics involced with the declaring war than 3 men pitching the idea to the President. Last I checked any incursions over 90 days(IIRC) and declarations of war must be authorized by congress. Would you have me believe that all of congress was "in on it?" 9/11 is still the catalyst that created the climate that allowed the invasion of Iraq to take place.

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How many careers - including those of members of Congress - were ended by disagreeing with this President post-9/11?

Congress no longer has to declare war, and the "policing" powers given to the President are a relic of our last failed attempt at interfering with a country that hadn't attacked us - Vietnam.

Perhaps you forgot what Bush said prior to running for President in 1999?

"One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief. My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it. If I have a chance to invade---if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it. I'm going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I'm going to have a successful presidency."

- George W. Bush, May 1999

9/11 indeed did allow Iraq to happen. But Iraq's invasion and occupation was in the works before 9/11. It's folly to say that Iraq is justified by what happened on 9/11. Bush used his capital, and he's used the lives of thousands of American men and women in furtherance of PNAC policy.

[John Prezioso]

Silk:

You are not really fooling anyone, saying you are conservative. I grow tired of listening to you hash up the same liberal claptrap I've been listening to for years now. As such, I will no longer encourage your nonsensical rantings by continuing to answer your ridiculous posts.

You are as conservative as Ted Kennedy, my friend.

[Guest $iLk]

Since you recently registered (May 2005) perhaps it would enlighten you to do a 'search' on my posts from 2001 to the present in regards to politics?

Or perhaps I can share a couple of websites that I maintain?:

http://www.rwam.org/ (right wing attack machine)

http://www.danielcooper.us/ (my political blog)

Then again it'd probably be easier to stick your head in the sand and dismiss me as a 'liberal' to keep from damaging your psyche.

[John Prezioso]

It would take alot more than the likes of you to "damage my psyche." What you have said in the past is irrelevant. You are NOT CONSERVATIVE. you are a classic flip flopper, at best a moderate. What's the matter? If you are comfortable with your position, labels should have no effect on you.

Here is a suggestion:

Instead of spamming 18 different topics with the same nonsense you are spewing, why not pick one thread and debate your silly notions in there?

P.S. you sure you are not really STREET in disguise?

[Guest $iLk]

Where have I flip-flopped? The first post in this thread was my original thoughts nearly a year before the Iraq invasion. I was a Conservative then, and my opinion hasn't changed although my level of anger has.

Support your assertion that I've flip-flopped, or perhaps try and respond logically instead of using logical fallacy to define your position. Demonizing me with labels does not win an argument - if logic is on your side you should be able to debunk my claims factually.

And please show me where being a Conservative is defined as supporting the invasion of foreign countries in furtherance of American policy without being attacked first?

Show me where that's ever been defined as a tribute of America?

[John Prezioso]

Please see my answer to your post in one of the 17 other threads you have started.

You are out of control. Pick a thread and STAY THERE!

[Guest Capn Crunch]

quote:

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Originally posted by Prez:

quote:

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America has been on a downward spiral...

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Aren't there enough chicken littles running around already?

There could not be in this world a bigger Reagan fan than me. I don't believe in having heroes, but he is as close to one as I'll ever have. And I can confidently say that he would have been in support of the war in Iraq. He would probably made better decisions,and been more willing to admit mistakes, but he still would have approved.

"None of the four wars that have occurred in my lifetime have happened because America is too strong... It is weakness that encourages our enemies to make mistaken judgements."

Ronald Reagan.

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Oh my God, that is tooooo funny. " I don't believe in having heroes but he is as close to one as I'll ever have" Did Mommy not change your diapers often enough, snotlick? Hahhahaha

[John Prezioso]

I'll say goodbye to you now, troll, as you won't be here much longer. Ta-ta!

[Guest Capn Crunch]

ok, goodbye

[Kevin Trotter]

Prez you are wayyyyy! offbase. I think you missed the point of $ilks thread. Are you suggesting that conservo's cant change thier opinion based on facts and introspection? Are you suggesting that conservatism is monolithic? I guess the real funny thing is calling $ilk..a moderate! You do read english don't you? Go back and read some of his threads before you insult someone who has earned both my respect and ire based on his "CONSERVATISM" BTW JAG! you gonna let him call $ilk a moderate? where are you man?