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Guest $iLk

U.S. Government spends half million dollars painting a fish on an airplane.

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Wow. How relentlessly sad. I am resisting the temptation to make a snide comment about the Republican party. But just barely...

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Guest $iLk

quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

Yeah, nobody but Republicans waste money...

Roll eyes all you like - Republican President Bush signs these bills without question, Republicans in control of both houses of Congress don't make a peep about fiscal restraint.

I might as well vote for Democrats. There is no basis to say "Democrats would be worse" even though historically that was the case - considering that this administration has blown even FDR out of the water on spending (including inflation being taken into account.)

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quote:

I might as well vote for Democrats.

Well, ridiculous spending bills like Bush's highway bill aside, I've gotta say, if that's your attitude, it sounds like you've already given up on the whole system to me.

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Obviously Democrats waste money, too, Prez. But you've got to admit, Bush has set new records with it. At least Clinton pretended that he cared about the deficit. At least he had a PhD in economics so he sorta new what he was doing as far as managing the economy. (Emphasis on sorta!) Bush hasn't even made an effort to check spending.

And $ilk, remember that in recent history, nobody has managed the economy worse than Reagan and Bush (cough...Republicans!).

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quote:

...in recent history, nobody has managed the economy worse than Reagan and Bush (cough...Republicans!).


Oy vey. More revisionalist history from our left-wing friends. Surely an unbiased source, as well.

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Guest

quote:

Originally posted by jazzmuir:

.

And $ilk, remember that in recent history, nobody has managed the economy worse than Reagan and Bush (cough...Republicans!).

What? are you 14 or maybe 15?

Reagan and Bush mismanaged the economy?

ROFLMAO!!

That has to be one of the most naive statements that I have heard in quite a while, I would have used another word, starts with I and ends with nt, but decided that wouldn't be nice...

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ack, I shoulda known that would stir the pot a little bit

look, Prez, Bush pushed through huge tax cuts for the rich and didn't cut spending to match. Now the deficit is quickly going through the roof, and I think that's cause for worry. I call that irresponsible. That's all I was saying. And I'm not at all a left-winger. For me, it's quite frequently a toss-up as to which party does a worse job. I distance myself from both. And for the record Jag, I'm 16. But in my own defense I'm not an average 16 yr old. And please don't immediately call me arrogant either cause everyone who knows me knows I'm not. I'll just leave it at that.

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Tax cuts for the rich is a liberal talking-head fallacy that has been disproven so many times that it is useless to even debate it. If that's what you wish to believe, fine, but don't expect anyone with a brain to agree with you.

As far as the deficit spending, you are correct sir. Bush has gotten out of control with his spending. I daresay he is acting (in a fiscal sense) like I would expect a Democrat would. But if you're going to hold up liberal tax and spend Democrats like Bubba Clinton as the model for fiscal responsibility, prepare to be laughed at.

EDIT: Oh and by the way, welcome to the 3000AD community!

OOPS! Can't do a beerchug! You're only 16!!! LOL!

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quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

Tax cuts for the rich is a liberal talking-head fallacy that has been disproven so many times that it is useless to even debate it. If that's what you wish to believe, fine, but don't expect anyone with a brain to agree with you.

Tsk tsk Prez... That statement is patently false.

When all is said and done the rich will receive a larger percentage decrease to their income tax rate than the rest of us.

But what's even worse is that since investment income is taxed at a much lower rate than wage income (and is not subject to SS/medicare taxes), and since the rich receive investment income at a much larger percentage than the average Joe, they do in fact benefit more from Bush's tax cuts.

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I'm surprised about two things:

1) A Bush supporter on this forum actually admitted that Bush wasn't perfect.

2) Many seem to have forgotten how Clinton got the gov going on surplusses instead of deficits (I'm not arguing about it either. Believe what you want).

And I thought Reagan did a good thing by beefing up our military and out-bluffing the soviets to end the cold war, no?

Hahaha... whatever. Have a good month, everyone.

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quote:

Tsk tsk Prez... That statement is patently false.

With all due respect Grizzle, it is you who are deliberately spreading untruths with your "taxcuts for the rich" garbage. There has NEVER been any such thing whatsoever as a tax that benefits ONLY rich people. You are merely playing the politics of envy, and it is quite sad, really.

NEWSFLASH!!!! The people who pay the most taxes will by default see the most benefit from any taxcut. The top 1% of wage earners pay one third of all taxes in America. Why wouldn't they see a bigger benefit than a guy making $30,000 a year? It is a matter of mathmatics, not of politics.

Oh, I know! It's just so unfair! Meh, cry me a river. This ridiculous notion that someone should be penalized for doing better than you is a key class envy instigator that the Democrats have made a living off of, and you guys have bought it hook line and sinker. Or should we make a taxcut only for the poor? That's hystetrical- a tax cut for someone who pays virtually no taxes.

Face it, the jig is up. "Taxcut for the rich' is a deliberately misleading, divisive, vote grabbing tactic that is as tired as it is pathetic.

Gimme a break - I KNOW you guys are smarter than this. Stop playing politics for once and lay off the left wing claptrap BS.

[ 10-12-2005, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Prez ]

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Penalizing someone who is doing better than you.

That's by that very same notion that they were supporting imposing gas tax on those who drive SUV's, trucks and bigger cars.

Should I even go into how the rich are the ones who own the bussinesses. Those bussinesses that provide jobs for the middle class and the poor. Those same jobs that provide those middle class and the poor with paychecks. Those same paychecks that put food on the table, and pay for those wellfare checks.

Should I even go into how those rich are the ones who put up millions of their dollars to open up a new bussiness, and either be it a success and they make more money, or have it fail and lose their millions. Those same bussinesses that again, provide jobs for the rest of you.

Should I even go into how those same rich have donated to Katrina aid. And not your $100 donation, but $100,000.

Should I even go into how those rich interpenuers put up their millions when a guy comes to them with nothing more than an idea, and asks for investment money. And when they invest in that guy, they either make money on him and his idea, or lose their own millions.

Where would you be without those rich?

Living in caves, and picking berries. That's where you'd be. Take a look at how China was before they allowed private bussinesses. Take a look at how Russia was when they got rid of the Czar, nationalized everything, got rid of the rich, and redistributed the wealth. They literally ROTTED away without the rich.

ROFL, tax cut for the rich.

Have you missed your math and economics classes in high school. Don't you know that for every $1 increase in tax on bussinesses you the consumer end up paying $2+ NOT the bussiness. Therefore for the increase in tax on the rich, YOU pay, not the rich. Therefore when those same taxes decrease for the rich, it benefits you by TRICKLING DOWN. Trust me, they will not hand over 90% of their money and go live in an appartment. They will just raise prices of their products, and services, or cut their workers wages, or lay some of them off. ROFL. Tax cuts for the rich. You gotta be kidding me.

It really does show how one can think for himself. Analyze things, and see the cause and effect. And how one can just hear something said. Go all emotional, and take someone on their word without thinking and understanding the causes and effects. Kinda like when Kerry was saying he will raise taxes, but only for the rich. And every moron was yelling horay, without understanding that they those taxes will get passed down to them at the rate of 1 to 3. Meaning for every dollar more the rich pay, the regular joe will end up shelling out 3. It would just be spread out over millions of people, and all you will see is a slight rise in costs of good and services, the rich however, will still keep their money. It's just YOU who will pick up that tab, at the INFLATED rate of 3. ROFL. That's why the poor will always stay poor. Because they don't understand the very basics of the economy, how things work, and wonder why every time the government gives them a hand out, or promisses lower taxes, things still don't go their way, even though it seems like it should. ROFL

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But it's so unfair! Waaaaaaahh! LOL!

Okay, seriously though. This from the party that insists that people who pay NO TAXES AT ALL get a tax return! Great - now we've turned our tax system into another form of welfare. When does this nonsense stop?

Anyone here who complains about "rich" people getting tax breaks ought to stop and think for a second - how does some who makes less money than you do view YOU? Well, if they subscribe to the class envy melarchy the Dems have been spewing for decades, then you make too much! You ought to be taxed higher SOLEY because you make more than them and by definition are greedy and dishonest. Think about it - your garbage man probably thinks you make too much money. Are you giving him all your earnings to make it even?

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Like it was said in Atlas Shrugged.

"From each according to their ability, to each according to his need"

The liberal socialists.

You know who usually supports such ideas? Those who have no ability or anything of value to offer in return. All they can hope for, is a way to take something of value from those who have it, and not be called vermin, robbers, or looters. Those who have some ability or something of value to offer, whould never support an idea that would force them to give up what they have.

Higher taxes on the rich, just because they are rich = legalized looting. It's supported by someone who knows he is not good enough to ever equal a guy who has 10 million in the bank, so instead of striving to become better than that guy and make 12 million himself, he seeks to bring that guy down to his level instead. To loot that guys wealth, to benefit for free from the profits, value of the rich.

[ 10-12-2005, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: Soback ]

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quote:

Penalizing someone who is doing better than you.


Taxes arent some kind of penalty.Its the price of living in a stable(content) society.It may have(lots of) problems in its execution but I think the concept itself is acceptable.

That being said,I agree that just taxing rich people and giving money to the poor isnt an answer to the problems.Those people should be tought to catch fish(those money should be used to create more jobs and provide better education).

And the "value" of rich people is just BS.Just because an athlete won the race that he has started a mile ahead of other competitors doesnt mean he has any more "value" than others.

I think its not too far in history when the frenchmen showed what would happen when the unhappiness of the society got ignored.

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It's not unhappiness, my friend - it's avarice. The liberals in the this country sadly have been extremely successful in instilling envy into every aspect of our society. It's like Soback said, it's a pure socialist model they are working off of.

The fundamental principal of class envy is that you have to be focused on what someone else has, and on what someone else is making a year. How pathetic. Why not worry about bettering yourself, instead of acting like a younger brother on Christmas morning whining that his bigger brother got more than he did?

The unabridged truth is that EVERYONE who pays taxes gets relief with every tax cut that is passed. But instead of focusing on how to use the extra income to better one's own situation, we are all supposed to whine and cry that someone else got more. Are we not grownups? How childish is that?

The sickest thing is that in their constant exploitation of the poor in this country, the Democrats increase the cycle of dependancy by turning our tax system into another form of welfare. Thus, you are doubly encouraged to do nothing for yourself, and all your energy is spent worrying how many more millions Bill Gates is bringing in now.

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Guest $iLk

A. I don't believe Bush and Republicans have mismanaged the economy.

B. I do believe that George W. Bush, his administration, and the 'Republicans' in Congress have mismanaged the hell out of the government.

C. Whether the 'rich' get a larger percentage of tax breaks is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the financing needs of the Federal government are met. Whether Scrooge McDuck can build a money bin filled with gold coins is irrelevant. Good for him. The purpose of taxation is to fund the Federal Government - not to punish rich people or pay for Social Welfare.

And I've pretty much given up on the whole system. This country will implode in 20 years.

"I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe . . . Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger. I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing. Make them intelligent, and they will be vigilant; give them the means of detecting the wrong, and they will apply the remedy."

- Daniel Webster (1834)

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quote:

And I've pretty much given up on the whole system. This country will implode in 20 years.


I do hope you are not serious. In 20 years, NOTHING will have changed.

I'm not sure if I'm more disturbed by you apparent obsession with Bush-bashing (the guy has made for a relatively lousy president, but come on!) or your complete and utter pessimism about America. Snap out of it man!

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolfheart:

quote:

Penalizing someone who is doing better than you.


Taxes arent some kind of penalty.Its the price of living in a stable(content) society.It may have(lots of) problems in its execution but I think the concept itself is acceptable.

That being said,I agree that just taxing rich people and giving money to the poor isnt an answer to the problems.Those people should be tought to catch fish(those money should be used to create more jobs and provide better education).

And the "value" of rich people is just BS.Just because an athlete won the race that he has started a mile ahead of other competitors doesnt mean he has any more "value" than others.

I think its not too far in history when the frenchmen showed what would happen when the unhappiness of the society got ignored.


FIRST: Taxes ARE a penalty, when someone has to pay more just because he makes more. I personaly know people who work for 9 or 10 months and then STOP working, because if they continue, then their taxes will sky rocket, and they would end up paying so much more and bring home less than if they would have just worked for 9 month and took 3 months off. Another thing, overtime, it gets taxed MORE than regular pay. WHY? Why should I pay a HIGHER RATE if I work 12 hours a day as opposed to 8? You telling me that it's not penalizing to be working more, applying yourself, producing, and then be punished with a higher tax rate for it and bring home just barely more than a guy who worked 8 hours?

Second: Don't know what you mean by that athlete starting a mile ahead. BUT, If I have some skill, knowledge or something to offer, then I have value. If I collect wellfare, medicare, food stamps, and depend on others to support my life, I DO NOT have value. Those people are a strain on the society, they are leeches, and looters. They will only vote for the guy who promisses them more looted $, not the guy who will make it easier to establish bussinesses creating jobs. Also, the VALUE of the rich people, is that they SPEND their money, and when that happens, they don't spend a couple of hundred, they spend dozens of thousands, providing jobs for the rest of us. The value of the rich people, is that they OWN bussinesses that provide jobs for the rest of us. A bum on the corner, has ZERO value.

Third: you posted "Those people should be tought to catch fish(those money should be used to create more jobs and provide better education)."

Who creates jobs? Government or private enterprise? Who makes the economy run? Government or private enterprise? Who pays taxes? Government or private enterprise? Let me tell you. Government only WASTES money not saves and invests it, government only collects taxes and spends taxes, not pays them. Government is a disorganized, wastefull, pathetic, overblown, incompetent organization, that is bad at EVERYTHING, starting at DMV and social services, and ending with military and politicians. Bussinesses create jobs, create new products, do research, invent new things, save and invest, and pay taxes, NOT government. When you artificially impose road blocks on enterpenuers, then there's less progress, less bussinesses opening up, less jobs being created. The rich are the ones who invest money, spend it, and open huge bussinesses that hire thousands of workers. Enterpenuers are the ones who invest their millions in a guy coming to them with nothing but 30 pages of a report and his idea, asking to be invested in. And when a regular guy opens up his own bussiness, he automatically is labeled rich by the socialists and penalized from the start for getting ahead, hampering him, and hurting the economy, jobs and progress at the same time.

So what have we learned? Taxes don't create new jobs. They are squandered by the government. And wasted even more by a social government.

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Guest $iLk

quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

I do hope you are not serious. In 20 years, NOTHING will have changed.

Besides programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security taking 30% of our budget instead of 5%. Besides an impotent United States crippled by Social Spending being overtaken by China and countries which at least have their shit together.

Our superpower status is fading into the sunset.

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quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

Taxes ARE a penalty, when someone has to pay more just because he makes more. I personaly know people who work for 9 or 10 months and then STOP working, because if they continue, then their taxes will sky rocket, and they would end up paying so much more and bring home less than if they would have just worked for 9 month and took 3 months off. Another thing, overtime, it gets taxed MORE than regular pay. WHY? Why should I pay a HIGHER RATE if I work 12 hours a day as opposed to 8? You telling me that it's not penalizing to be working more, applying yourself, producing, and then be punished with a higher tax rate for it and bring home just barely more than a guy who worked 8 hours?

[/QB]

Taxes are not inheritly a penelty to rich people. The way they are currently implemented in most countries it works that way, but in its most basic form taxes are not by default a penelty to higher income earners.

In any event, a flat tax on income would probably be better, if the only reason is to stop people's heads exploading on tax day.

quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

Second: Don't know what you mean by that athlete starting a mile ahead. BUT, If I have some skill, knowledge or something to offer, then I have value. If I collect wellfare, medicare, food stamps, and depend on others to support my life, I DO NOT have value. Those people are a strain on the society, they are leeches, and looters. They will only vote for the guy who promisses them more looted $, not the guy who will make it easier to establish bussinesses creating jobs. Also, the VALUE of the rich people, is that they SPEND their money, and when that happens, they don't spend a couple of hundred, they spend dozens of thousands, providing jobs for the rest of us. The value of the rich people, is that they OWN bussinesses that provide jobs for the rest of us. A bum on the corner, has ZERO value.[/QB]

By "a mile ahead" Wolfheart was probably refering to people who's parents earned alot of money, but I could be wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

Third: you posted "Those people should be tought to catch fish(those money should be used to create more jobs and provide better education)."

Who creates jobs? Government or private enterprise? Who makes the economy run? Government or private enterprise? Who pays taxes? Government or private enterprise? Let me tell you. Government only WASTES money not saves and invests it, government only collects taxes and spends taxes, not pays them. Government is a disorganized, wastefull, pathetic, overblown, incompetent organization, that is bad at EVERYTHING, starting at DMV and social services, and ending with military and politicians. Bussinesses create jobs, create new products, do research, invent new things, save and invest, and pay taxes, NOT government. When you artificially impose road blocks on enterpenuers, then there's less progress, less bussinesses opening up, less jobs being created. The rich are the ones who invest money, spend it, and open huge bussinesses that hire thousands of workers. Enterpenuers are the ones who invest their millions in a guy coming to them with nothing but 30 pages of a report and his idea, asking to be invested in. And when a regular guy opens up his own bussiness, he automatically is labeled rich by the socialists and penalized from the start for getting ahead, hampering him, and hurting the economy, jobs and progress at the same time. [/QB]

Firstly, goverment creates jobs (Military forces, police, teachers etc.). Secondly, if you use some money for job training instead of giving a person a free lunch for life it means that you increase the persons chances of becoming a productive citizen. This is a good thing, in my books at least.

$iLk: I think you are overy pessimistic about how long America will last. In any event it probably won't remain the only Superpower forever.

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quote:

Our superpower status is fading into the sunset.


Hey, if it meant not having to babysit and mother-hen the world, then I'm all for it. Take the earthquake aid for example. All I have seen on the news on TV and on the internet is what AMERICA is doing. I see all of the helicopters are American. All of the talk is of AMERICAN military coming in to help dispense aid. When we are not the superpower of the world anymore, maybe someone else can take a turn at being the go-to country for EVERYTHING and have to sit and listen to the rest of the world whine and cry that they aren't doing enough, and their leaders are greater threats than Hitler and Hussein.

It would be a nice change of pace when we, like just about every other country in the world does now, could worry about ourselves and no one else. I'm sure the world would be a much better place when no one gives a crap about anyone but themselves.

While we're at it, let's all become like Silk and give up on everything. Sure, let's implode on ourselves - that'll teach everyone. Let's give up on America and say the hell with all of the sacrifice in blood that Americans have given in defending her right to be, and the ideal she was built on. Pessimism and division will surely work where optimism and belief in the American dream have so obviously failed.

Good plan there buddy.

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