France Unrest

[Soback]

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107517.html

"Socialist Fran├ºois Mitterrand attained a stunning victory in the May 10, 1981, presidential election. The victors immediately moved to carry out campaign pledges to nationalize major industries, halt nuclear testing, suspend nuclear power plant construction, and impose new taxes on the rich. The Socialists' policies during Mitterrand's first two years created a 12% inflation rate, a huge trade deficit, and devaluations of the franc. (* An excelent example of what SOCIALISM does to a country *) In March 1986, a center-right coalition led by Jacques Chirac won a slim majority in legislative elections. Chirac became prime minister, initiating a period of ÔÇ£cohabitationÔÇØ between him and the Socialist president, Mitterrand. Mitterrand's decisive reelection in 1988 led to Chirac being replaced as prime minister by Michel Rocard, a Socialist. (* Socialist again *) Relations, however, cooled with Rocard, and in May 1991 Edith CressonÔÇöalso a SocialistÔÇöbecame France's first female prime minister. But Cresson's unpopularity forced Mitterrand to replace Cresson with a more well-liked Socialist, Pierre B├®r├®govoy, who eventually was embroiled in a scandal and committed suicide. Mitterrand did succeed in helping to draft the Maastricht Treaty and, after winning a slim victory in a referendum, confirming close economic and security ties between France and the European Union (EU).

On his third try Chirac won the presidency in May 1995, campaigning vigorously on a platform to reduce unemployment (**). Elections for the National Assembly in 1997 gave the Socialist coalition a majority (*OH, maybe that's why*). Shortly after becoming president, Chirac resumed France's nuclear testing in the South Pacific, despite widespread international protests as well as rioting (*ahem, because the population is so far rooted in liberal socialism*) in the countries affected by it. Socialist leader Lionel Jospin became prime minister in 1997 (*oops, Socialist YET AGAIN*). In the spring of 1999, the country took part in the NATO air strikes in Kosovo, despite some internal opposition.

Jean-Marie Le Pen, leader of the right-wing anti-immigrant National Front Party, shocked France in April 2002 with his second-place finish in the first round of France's presidential election. He took 17% of the vote, eliminating Lionel Jospin, the Socialist prime minister, who tallied 16%(*by 1%, that's JUST 1%). Jospin, stunned by the result, announced that he was retiring from politics and threw his support behind incumbent president Jacques Chirac, who won with an overwhelming 82.2% of the vote in the runoff election (*so he basically won by default, not because they elected him*). Chirac's center-right coalition won an absolute majority in Parliament. In July 2002, Chirac survived an assassination attempt by a right-wing extremist.

[John Prezioso]

Nomad, I think you might be over-analyzing the issue. Socialism by any other name is still socialism. France has imploded from within since pre-WW2. They are weak as a country because the goverment has never taken steps to make them strong. The people of France deserve better, but they have been lulled to sleep over decades of Socialist infection. It seems like they are awake now, but do they really even know what they want?

[Soback]

quote:

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Originally posted by nomad:

It's simpler than that. In the last 13 years the french government was socialist only from 1997 to 2002, all the other governments have been from the right. Besides, the President is also from the right since 1995 and has many powers, it's not an honorific position like in Israel for example.

And for your information, there are many shades of right, like there are many shades of left.

---

Have you missed the very first paragraph oh my post?

Here, I'll quote it again:

"Socialist Fran├ºois Mitterrand attained a stunning victory in the May 10, 1981, presidential election. The victors immediately moved to carry out campaign pledges to nationalize major industries, halt nuclear testing, suspend nuclear power plant construction, and impose new taxes on the rich. The Socialists' policies during Mitterrand's first two years created a 12% inflation rate, a huge trade deficit, and devaluations of the franc. (* An excelent example of what SOCIALISM does to a country *) In March 1986, a center-right coalition led by Jacques Chirac won a slim majority in legislative elections. Chirac became prime minister, initiating a period of ÔÇ£cohabitationÔÇØ between him and the Socialist president, Mitterrand. Mitterrand's decisive reelection in 1988 led to Chirac being replaced as prime minister by Michel Rocard, a Socialist. (* Socialist again *) Relations, however, cooled with Rocard, and in May 1991 Edith CressonÔÇöalso a SocialistÔÇöbecame France's first female prime minister. But Cresson's unpopularity forced Mitterrand to replace Cresson with a more well-liked Socialist, Pierre B├®r├®govoy, who eventually was embroiled in a scandal and committed suicide. Mitterrand did succeed in helping to draft the Maastricht Treaty and, after winning a slim victory in a referendum, confirming close economic and security ties between France and the European Union (EU)."

As far as shades of right go. You can call a rose by any name, it will still smell the same. So is the "right" in France. You can call it by any name you want. It still is as socialist as they come, for the reasons I have already posted before. But since you seem set to keep missing them, lets re-cap:

1. Complete public wellfare (social programs)

2. Complete social security

3. Complete government paid retirement

4. Complete government paid education

5. Complete government paid medical care

6. Complete government paid un-employment

7. Regulation of bussinesses to the point of taking away their ability to control their workforce (as example, the bussiness can't fire or lay off any workers, unless it actually goes out of bussiness)

8. Regulation of bussinesses to such an extent that it makes it practically impossible to start a new one. (Practically)

9. 50% taxation on income (that's excluding other types of taxes and fees) to pay for all the social programs mentioned above

Conclusion? You can call it right, you can call it capitalistic for all I care. In reality, it is NOT. It's just plain SOCIALIST. Just like the government, you can call it right, or anything else you want, in reality it's LIBERAL, and hence all the problems now. The funny thing is, when the problems were fuming under the lid, you were proudly proclaiming how France is a great socialist country with liberal government that works, and when it all blows up and boils over, you do a 180 and start saying how the right is in control and it's not at all a socialist country.

[ 11-05-2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Soback ]

[Soback]

So, tourists go to Phillipines, Africa, Thailand, Britain, and Ireland too. Doesn't mean they want to live there. So try again.

As far as 10 year old arrested. What, you think this 10 year old just spontaneously build a bomb and wanted to go burn things, or you think he actually learned those ideas and actions from his parents and siblings at home? Where do you think all those youths got their ideas from? Public education maybe? TV? I bet it was from mosques (becaus it seems the muslims are rioting, not the christians) and from their parents. Which would explain this fresh young generation of un-integrated, civilized world hating people France is breeding. They were bred among people of TOLERANCE. People that tolerated the views, beliefs and practices that are WRONG. This is where the ideology that nothing is wrong, it's just different and different is OK, has gotten the French.

In Africa they believe that if you have aids and rape an 11 year old virgin, your aids will be cured. Is that just another belief you need to be tolerant of? In India, they believe a 12 year old can be set up and married off, is that another belief you need to be tolerant of? In middle east they believe that if you kill an infidel you will be rewarded. Tolerate that. Or how about if you die while taking out dozens of infidels, you will have however many dozen virgins. You like that belief? Yeah, tolerate all that. We already see where that took Denmark, and where it has taken France. The whole Europe is to follow.

If they would have been educated from their very birth that they live in a civilized society, and that to be civilized human being, you need to behave like one, have RESPECT for others, none of this would have happened. Respect and tolerance are two different things Nomad. A man who lacks respect is not a man, a man who is tolerant of everything is also not a man.

[Soback]

quote:

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Originally posted by nomad:

I consult french press daily, and guess what ? There's not any criticism of conceptual politics be of the right or the left. What is in question is the integration model, who seems to be deficient independently of whoever rules.

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And another thing. Just stop this jiber jaber. I understand what you are saying. But it will not work. You are not a politician speaking to simpletons and will not awe us or convince us with sentences that carry lots of words but zero meaning.

That paragraph did not address my points about France being socialist AT ALL. With that paragraph you managed to neither deny nor confirm my points, but instead skirted them completly hoping for anyone who reads it to draw their own conclusions.

Be plain, simple and concise. So, is France liberal and socialist based on the 9 points I addressed above? Or are you going to debate and try to prove to me otherwise?

[Aperson]

I would call France a socilistic country with captialistic elements, much like Canada, but Canada is a bit more ,um, right (I think that's right, the left/right labeling confuses me at times).

Well based on points one through six of the ones you listed, America is looking fairly socialist-like. Then again, I would called its economic model a captialistic one with socialistic elements, but what do I know?.

[Grizzle]

Soback, Nomad was trying to refocus the thread towards the cause of the current unrest, which by all accounts is due directly to Frances failure to integrate other cultures and address poverty.

That the government of France is socialist, once again, is nothing more than a convenient fact for you and others to beat upon as the root cause. This is absurd given that all forms of government suffer from poverty and discrimination.

Jag, your post about the calls for Muslim separatism is interesting, but thus far it's the only place I've seen it linked with rioters. I'd be careful to accept it as fact as it sounds a bit more like a mixing of information and is clearly not presented in the full context of it's originating source.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Grizzle:

Soback, Nomad was trying to refocus the thread towards the cause of the current unrest, which by all accounts is due directly to Frances failure to integrate other cultures and address poverty.

That the government of France is socialist, once again, is nothing more than a convenient fact for you and others to beat upon as the root cause. This is absurd given that all forms of government suffer from poverty and discrimination.

Jag, your post about the calls for Muslim separatism is interesting, but thus far it's the only place I've seen it linked with rioters. I'd be careful to accept it as fact as it sounds a bit more like a mixing of information and is clearly not presented in the full context of it's originating source.

---

ROFLMAO!!

You guys are so fricking naive, it is hilarious, and at the same time sad.

The muslims want NOTHING more then world domination for the law of sharia, and when they are able to move to other countries, and yet stay separate, they can and will get away with it.

They are getting away with it in France, and France is exploding.

Expect the rest of Europe to explode as well, their PC BS, socialism, and shades of gray is going to destroy them.

I really am enjoying the show, sad, isn't it?

But being proven right, is just so Good!! LOL

[John Prezioso]

Grizzle - Almost every report on every news channel refers to the rioters as "pre-dominantly Muslim".

That the government of France is Socialist is not necessarily a root cause, but it can't be ignored for its weakening of French society. It almost certainly is a factor in the rampant poverty and unemployment in France.

Exactlty how does a country "integrate other cultures"? This statement thoroughly confused me. (Not all that hard to do, I admit.) My ancestors were Italian and they integrated themselves into this society.

[Grizzle]

Naive? Who other than yourself has stated that this is the beginning of the Muslim uprising in Europe? You'd have a leg to stand on if all 6 million Muslims in France were involved. I'd expect more coming from someone who always screams at the "chicken littles."

You've gone and written the end to this story before it even started Jag. Since you seem to think you've got this one nailed, I'll expect your admission you were wrong when it all blows over.

So many of you lump Muslims in with the extremists that are actually causing the problem it's ridiculous. Generalization is a very bad thing.

Prez, so if the socialist government of France is responsible for weakening itself and allowing immigrants, how different is that from our own government (of a country FOUNDED by immigrants) allowing the same? And if socialism is a factor in poverty and unemployment what causes it here?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Prez:

Grizzle - Almost every report on every news channel refers to the rioters as "pre-dominantly Muslim".

That the government of France is Socialist is not necessarily a root cause, but it can't be ignored for its weakening of French society. It almost certainly is a factor in the rampant poverty and unemployment in France.

Exactlty how does a country "integrate other cultures"? This statement thoroughly confused me. (Not all that hard to do, I admit.) My ancestors were Italian and they integrated themselves into this society.

---

France comitted suicide LONG ago, when they embraced, "soft" socialism, mixed with a "democracy".

It has turned to hell in a handbasket, because the barbarians have come in and taken over.

France is finished, now it is just a matter of the terms of surrender.

France lasted 2 weeks to the Nazi's, and now the Muslims will get their separation agreement as well, and then France will BURN....

The EU is about to be toast, and then it will spread to Canada, and then to the US, if they EVER attempt to take your guns here in the US, DON'T LET them, because you will be at their mercy when THEY surrender to the muslims as well, and that is ONE thing you do not want to occur.

Either we defend our freedom, or we lose it, the government is not, and NEVER has been the answer.

[Grizzle]

Holy crap Jag, what have you been smoking? Seriously, this is a pretty far stretch even for you. How do we get from riots that began with the death of two youths to stocking up on ammo preparing for the end of days?

I'm hoping you're tanked up a little, because that rant is just plain paranoia.

I'll make a deal with you though. When the Muslims come knocking on my door to strip my life from me, I promise to call you and apologize and admit you were right.

[LostInSpace]

Man, it just keeps getting worse there:

PARIS, France (CNN) -- Protesters in France expanded their arson rampage into the capital city of Paris and along Mediterranean resort communities as the nation's Interior Ministry predicted the violence would grow by daybreak Sunday........

The vandalism has spread to around 20 communities with large immigrant and Muslim populations who've been plagued by poverty, unemployment and alleged discrimination. In some areas, unemployment is 25 percent...........

Warning for tourists

The U.S. Embassy in Paris has issued a public announcement warning American travelers about the rioting.

"Although the riots have occurred in areas not normally frequented by U.S. tourists, travelers should be aware that train travel from the Charles de Gaulle Airport to the city center may be disrupted at times, as it passes near the affected area," according to the announcement, dated Friday.

"Travelers could rely instead on airport buses or taxis to downtown Paris. Americans should avoid the affected areas."

France is starting to sound like a mini Iraq.

[Grizzle]

I suggest you all watch the videos available from the CNN link LIS provided. It might just change your perspective on what is happening and just who the rioters are.

[LostInSpace]

I have a question for you all. These are poor and unemployed right? What are they doing with these luxury items:

"They are very mobile, in cars or scooters."

[John Prezioso]

Stolen, maybe? Or provided by the ringleaders?

Grizzle-

quote:

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I'll make a deal with you though. When the Muslims come knocking on my door to strip my life from me, I promise to call you and apologize and admit you were right.

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Well, they already came knocking on my door when they attacked my home city and almost killed my father on Sept.11. I take nothing for granted, and would not be surprised by anything that Muslims do. I try very hard to remember that there are good Muslims too, but honestly sometimes it's REALLY hard.

[John Prezioso]

Nomad-

If you are right, why do you think all of the major news sources have reported that the rioters are mostly Muslim and poor immigrants?

I'm a little confused how two incidental deaths could have set off such a firestorm. It seems like they were just the spark that set off a powderkeg.

[John Prezioso]

This is the story as reported on ABCnews. Not a source I normally rely on myself, but one that several here have referred to in the past as credible.

EXCERPT: "The unrest is forcing France to confront long-simmering anger in poor suburbs ringing the big cities which are mainly populated by immigrants and their French-born families, often from Muslim North Africa. They are marked by high unemployment, discrimination and despair fertile terrain for crime of all sorts and Muslim extremists offering frustrated youths a way out."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1285500

[Aperson]

Jaguar:

I thought Wolferz was our resisdent conspiracy theorist.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Aperson:

Jaguar:

I thought Wolferz was our resisdent conspiracy theorist.

---

It's resident, BTW, it's NOT a conspiracy when EVERYONE knows that you are trying to do it, at least those that are paying attention.

I have been watching fundamentalist Islam for a long time, and they are doing EXACTLY what they claimed they would do.

France, Denmark, The Netherlands, and other EU countries with unintegrated Muslim populations are about to explode as those populations attempt to bring Islamic Law to their districts, and the French and other countries to stay out of those same regions of their OWN countries.

As this happens, watch what else will occur, the french riots are but a first step...

[Guest]

No NOMAD, the ONLY way to stop this is to SHOOT the ones doing it.

2 in the chest, and 1 in the head, END OF RIOTS....

If someone is running around with a molotov cocktail, you SHOOT them.

And yes, I would LOVE to see this tried in the US, because the citizens would be out there SHOOTING the scum, as is our right, to protect our homes and property.

If some yahoo decides he wants to burn my car, I can pop him and send him to Allah, and that is EXACTLY what I would do.

[Grizzle]

Jag, If you catch someone trying to burn your car, you have them arrested, unless of course you're in it at the time, then you might have reason to shoot them.

No one has died during these riots, yet 50 people died during the riots in LA years back. That should tell you *something*.

[Guest]

It tells me that is WELL organized, and they expect the French government to give into their demands.

If it were me, and my neighborhood, there would be bodies laying about, as I wasted the scum that were rioting....

[Aperson]

That could backfire. As the poeple rioting might not be interested in just vandilism after that.

[Soback]

Jaguar, you are talking to people who are ignorant of history. They can't link what's going on now to what has happened before. They just don't understand. When you ask them to give you event time line between 500 to 200 years ago, their eyes glaze over, and that's why they can't concieve of something bad happening. They don't know what precursors are. And THAT's why history repeats itself. Because we have people that just plain out think it's "boring", and fail to learn it's lessons. It really is that simple.

Look at it this way though. We are ready, we know what we will do, we know that we have the highest chance of survival. So, poetic justice is a good thing. You can also call it natural evolution. It's like those people in New Orleans, storm is 4 days away, "laughing", storm is 3 days away "it will pass", storm is 2 days away, "it won't be that bad", storm is 1 day away, "you didn't give us enough warning, we can't get out now", storm is here. Guess who survived and who got hurt?

When you know history, know the events, know the precursors, you know what will happen, and it's in your power either to prevent it, or get ready for it the best you can. As far as all the rest of you go. I am glad you turn your heads on it, keep rationalizing it, and keep justifying it, and keep making excuses for it, and keep "understanding" it, and keep tolerating it. When the time comes, I won't be lifting a finger to protect you. The only people who will survive, are those who are like me (for those who have seen Saving Private Ryan, I will have no space in my group for a person that was like that reporter) , and those that I will chose to include with me. I will have people around me with skills, character, and compentence, I won't have room for tolerance, or the ones whos only skill is rationalization, feelings of entitlement, and collection of social services.

How long do you think you will survive with those whos views are similar to yours, Grizzle, Nomad, Aperson. LOL, they will be the first ones to push you in front of them to save their own butts when trouble is ahead.