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Bush Signs Renewal of Patriot Act


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Yeah, it's good news that he is taking away our Constitutional freedoms while making us pay for it at the same time.

And you'd better believe that.

There's absolutly no chance that republicans will win the next election. Not only do the socialists hate them, but their own people, the conservatives that have voted for them, have turned away. If the republicans can't do the things that they were supposed to do when we voted them into office, then we might as well turn the country over to the socialists and once it's done, re-build anew.

It's plain and simple. A lot of conservatives feel betrayed. Those that do, will NOT vote for a republican in the next election. They will either not vote at all, or vote for a libertarian. They gave Bush a second chance. Why would they give the party that keeps on betraying conservative values, keeps on increasing/growing the government, and violating the Constitution a third, when there's a third party that not only sounds conservative, but promises to bring back the Constitution, enforce it, and get rid of criminals in office that violate it.

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quote:

Why would they give the party that keeps on betraying conservative values, keeps on increasing/growing the government, and violating the Constitution a third, when there's a third party that not only sounds conservative, but promises to bring back the Constitution, enforce it, and get rid of criminals in office that violate it.

Of course that third party could pull a Harper...

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I hear this same sort of thing from a lot of people and it pisses me off a lot. People get only the basic, outward information about everything these days: Iraq, the Patriot act, how bush sucks because he is Texan, taxes on smoking *ahem*...

You name it, but these days, whenever you hear news including Bush, repulicans, or conservative issues, you'll always here negative feedback- as you proved. Its bias and unjust and is not the way Americans should think. People see "American killed in Iraq" as headlines on a paper and they immediately think 'Someone died in Iraq, therefore Bush is responisble for ''Killing them'' -They would always forget that Saddam Hussien and terrorist regimes were really responsible for not just the deaths of the soldiers, but tens of thousands of civilians during his reign. Yet you never hear about how bad those people are.

Its the same with the Patriot Act: a fair and just act created in response to 9/11. Im willing to bet a lot of people actually would have to think to actually remember that even happened. "Oh yeh, 9/11... that was a long time ago, its not like anything is going to happen now... Id rather step onto the plane a few minutes later and risk terrorist attacks if it suits me." It sounds funny but people actually think that way (not out loud) but its true. As soon as the so-hated Patriot Act expires, security will slowly slack off just enough and next time it'll be a train, or a boat, or maybe a subway attack. Then guess who will be blamed: Bush.

Its ironic contradiction.

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I'm pretty sure that by now, Bush is prepared to be blamed for just about anything bad that happens between now and the end of his presidency.

There isn't enough money in the world to make me want to be president. Well, maybe if it was one beeeellion dollars!!!!!!...

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Ghost: The crux of the problem (as I understand it) with the Patriot Act is that it basically presumes someone guilty ( e.g. the surveillance of a suspected "terrorist") without proper judicial trail or evidence. Last I heard this was against the Constitution (not that seems to matter much in the U.S. these days).

quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

I'm pretty sure that by now, Bush is prepared to be blamed for just about anything bad that happens between now and the end of his presidency.


That is, of course, apart of the President's (or any national leader's) job description.

quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

There isn't enough money in the world to make me want to be president. Well, maybe if it was
one beeeellion dollars!!!!!!
...

But why have billions when you can have millions?

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A lot of you seem to have already forgotten, espically you Soback, that if we hadn't of had the Patriot Act, the Golden Gate bridge would be on the bottom of the ocean now

If case you have already forgotten, it's BECAUSE of the Patriot Act is why those who where going to bomb the bridge where apprehended

It's BECAUSE of the Patriot Act why two people in California where arrested for having ties to the Taliban, but also for conspiring to blow up a federal building

It's BECAUSE of the Patriot Act why several cells in the United States have already been found and elimanated

You see, all of you are looking at the negative, not the positive

Just like how most of you probably don't know about the good things our soldiers have done in Iraq, rebuilding schools, providing power and clean water, rebuilding roads, telephones, what not... all the media plays on is the negative, never the positive... so of course your going to hear people say that the PA takes away our rights.. but have you even BOTHERED to actually LOOK IT UP and see what it entitles?

Let me put it this way, I don't care what measures the Patriot Act takes after all, I have absolutely NOTHING to hide...

Only those who DO have something to hide are the guilty party and SHOULD be investigated

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I suppose it's lost in the shuffle that the wiretapping in question is on calls placed internationally that we have probably cause to suspect are terror-related.

Our Bay Area and Great White Northern friends are perhaps a little to the left of the American mainstream which, if memory serves, runs about 40% to each party and 20% in the mushy middle (basically, people who vote on Charisma and single issues, not on their own worked out political theory).

In other words, conservatives will continue to vote conservative (because the alternative is always worse); liberals will continue to vote liberal. Third parties won't get anywhere because neither side wants a Perot or Nader to siphon off a winning margin from their base. Those in the middle will vote for the guy with the best hair. That's really just about it.

The one thing I'll say at present is that America will continue to vote conservative as long as conservatives have a discernible and cohesive political philosophy. Americans know where conservatives stand. Liberals do not seem to have much of an organized platform here since they're busier trying to make conservatives look bad than they are with trying to make themselves look good or at least get a coherent set of ideas behind a single message.

Watch what the American political left is doing for a message and you won't hear a platform, you'll hear a host of "the problem with the president" or "Bush blah blah blah" or something about how America is going to be doomed by some fateful social problem. Conservatives have won because they proposed their own initiatives and ideas and ran on them. I'm not seeing the same from the American left.

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Just because you are not doing anything illegal doesn't mean that it's ok for the government to go snooping through your private life.

Someone should go read the Constitution. Section 9. Limits on Congress. OR how about the Fourth Amendment, are you familiar with it? Let me quote you... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." then there's the Fifth Amendment "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;...". You don't know about the TSA much do you. Well, I guess you don't know that TSA has the power to take away your Commercial drivers license, your pilots license, ect... WITHOUT any explanation, NOR are you able to challenge their actions in court. Where is the due process when they deprive people of their liberty and property?

You want the Patriot Act. That's fine. First you need to repeal those Constitutional ammendments. Then go ahead and create new ones that declare the government as the ultimate entity, allowing it searches, violations of privacy, ability to arrest, confiscate and revoke things, all without due process. Then you can have your Patriot Act. Right now, that act is nothing but a bastard law that violates the Constitution, forced upon us by criminal career politicians with the mob boss on top signing it.

And don't forget. Bush - Clinton, Clinton - Bush. Who said that? Bush did. Any conservative that thinks he is voting conservative when he casts his vote for a Republican is diluding himself. "Bush - Clinton" "Republicans - Democrats" can go to hell, it's nothing but a third party that wants to bring back and enforce the Constitution from now on.

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Soback

What would you rather have:

A country that is constantly under attack by the terrorists, constantly bombing our buildings, killing helpless civilians

Or

A country that, although has lost a few freedoms, has a good defense against terrorism by striking out at it FIRST and finding out where the attacks are coming from via wire tapping, phone call interception

Please think hard on that, and please don't spin or twist what I just said, what I want is a STRAIGHT answer. Which of those two would you rather have? Hmmm?

After all, you seem to ONLY be pointing out the 'bad' things of the Patriot Act, not even BOTHERING to look at how much has been accomplished with this.. but then again.. you have look hard to find anything good abotu the Patriot Act since the mainstream media doesn't bother to report it (I have a nice documentation listing a good amount of good that Patriot Act has done, which is more than worth the lose of a few freedoms, like a plot to blow up a few casino's here in the Nevada that was spoiled thanks to wiretapping, or the plot to blow up Hoover Dam, AGAIN spoiled due to wiretapping)

If your going to argue about the Patriot Act I strongly advise that you actually READ and RESEARCH it, instead of believing all the crap from the Mainstream Media

And yes I do agree that lossing a few freedoms is bad, and Soback, don't lecture me on the Constitution, espically since it was a requirement in order to me to GRADUATE FROM HIGH SCHOOL (FYI: I attended a Private High School, where knowing the constitution was a requirement to graduate, among other things)

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Kalshion, don't tell me to research the Patriot Act. I have been personally affected by the Patriot Act.

Also, don't give me the choice between "constantly under attack" or "safe, but lost freedoms". It's the same choice that a mugger gives his victim, "Your life or your wallet". My freedoms are not yours to take, nor are they yours to grant me. They are MINE.

You on the other hand, should go and research a country called The United States of America, a document called The Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence. Some reading of Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand would help you understand what being an individual is.

Those who seek to harm me, are criminals, just like those who seek to take away my freedoms while claiming to grant me "safety" in return. The choice is not between one or another. The choice is NEITHER.

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Sorry Soback, didn't know you where directly affected, after all, you NEVER said you where, perhaps if you had I wouldn't have said those things

Not going to argue anymore about the Patriot Act.

The rest of you can enjoy the debate =)

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Soback:

I think you should do a little research on the Patriot Act. Relating it to a mugger stealing your money is actually quite contradictory to what the act represents. I find it quite difficult to beleive you were so terribly affected by the Patriot Act. Did they stop you and check your bags for weapons at an airport terminal? What's next in this insane crusade against my freedom, metal detectors!? Save me god!

And as far as what Ive seen you argue about your lost "freedoms" in America today: I think your views on freedom and government revolve around total anarchy.

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Black Ghost, sometimes you shouldn't let people know what you think, as you might be embarassed to find out how little meaning it has.

Your thoughs reveal that you have no understanding of the Patriot Act beyond the propaganda, published in some third rate newpaper or what is told by the empty shells staring at you from TV. So it is you who should do a little more research. But not into the Patriot Act, rather the Constitution of the United States and maybe some reading on the meanings of Individualism, Egoism, and how that differs from Socialism, Egotism and Altruism. For extra points, you can read of the Roman empire, how and what kind of people lived when it was born versus how and what kind of people "lived" there when it crumbled and died.

It is understandable that the meaning of this posting will dissapear from your memory ten minutes after you read it. The reality of life, however, will prevail, and one day the growing, un-named disease which infests US will stare you blankly in the face. It's a shame that some can not learn the first time, nor the second, but then again, what do you expect of people who barely know history and foundation of their own country. Understandable though, when the Superbowl, People's magazine and Monica/Clinton is what acounts for history this days.

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My sources of informaition do not come strictly from 'propaganda'. In fact I would have thought you would have known enough about me to know my opiniions rarely are based off of the media and I never state my opinion at all unless I have viewed it from every angle. This seemed ligitemate to me.

I am by no means one of the everyday citizens and opinionators you know of- I know who you are talking about. It scares me as well- but I am not one of those people. I, unlike many, do not jump to conclusions but review evidence and real logical assessments before making MY opinion. One example is that I would never vote for a president or any political member because of their party but instead from what they say, whereas many (gladly not all) Americans would judge that person off first hand just on their appearance/ party.

So before I go and read about the Punic Wars and the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, perhaps you could state the facts on which you are basing your argument and then present the evidence supporting it. Then maybe we can become more clear about this.

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I'll re-post what I have said before.

"Someone should go read the Constitution. Section 9. Limits on Congress. OR how about the Fourth Amendment, are you familiar with it? Let me quote you... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." then there's the Fifth Amendment "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;...". You don't know about the TSA much do you. Well, I guess you don't know that TSA has the power to take away your Commercial drivers license, your pilots license, ect... WITHOUT any explanation, NOR are you able to challenge their actions in court. Where is the due process when they deprive people of their liberty and property?

You want the Patriot Act. That's fine. First you need to repeal those Constitutional ammendments. Then go ahead and create new ones that declare the government as the ultimate entity, allowing it searches, violations of privacy, ability to arrest, confiscate and revoke things, all without due process. Then you can have your Patriot Act. Right now, that act is nothing but a bastard law that violates the Constitution, forced upon us by criminal career politicians with the mob boss on top signing it."

--- Now. There's your facts. The Patriot Act violates the Constitution by presuming a citizen guilty. Then, it grants permission for searches based on "probable cause" that that said citizen is guilty (the guilty verdict was given without an arrest, without due process, without being charged, hell, that citizen wouldn't even be given an explanation). Then, it grants powers to the TSA to take away drivers licenses, commercial drivers licenses, pilots certificates, ect.... AND YOU CAN NOT CHALLENGE THAT IN COURT. Here's an example. When TSA was first established, they revoked some pilots certificates. Those pilots tried having the decission challenged. They were told that they couldn't. Those pilots couldn't even get their files from the TSA to find out what information ABOUT THEM led to the revokation of their own certificates. They were presumed guilty, had their property (pilots certs) confiscated, ALL without due process. It takes the power away from YOU, the Citizen. If the hammer hapens to fall on you, even if it's a misstake, you have absolutly no possible way to clear that up. None, None whatsoever. You can not take them to court, you can not challenge their decission, you can not even find out what their decission was based on. All you will have, is the consequences of their decission, and no recourse.

Your Patriot Act gives them that power. Ultimate, and without checks and balances. If you have known this, and were praising Bush for signing the Patrion Act. Then you deserve what you get. The government that is in complete control of you, not you in control of the government. If you didn't know that. Then you haven't researched the Patriot Act beyong what is said in the newspapers and TV, which is not much besides the propaganda that "...it will help us capture terrorists..."

So, I will repeat, again:

"You want the Patriot Act. That's fine. First you need to repeal those Constitutional ammendments. Then go ahead and create new ones that declare the government as the ultimate entity, allowing it searches, violations of privacy, ability to arrest, confiscate and revoke things, all without due process. Then you can have your Patriot Act. Right now, that act is nothing but a bastard law that violates the Constitution, forced upon us by criminal career politicians with the mob boss on top signing it."

Say good by to "From the People, By the People, and For the People"

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Yeh Soack, I bet you carry a copy of the constitution around in your pocket, just so you can snag people for stepping on your lawn.

Did you write the constitution? No, so why is your assessment of what it says so much better than everybody who has lived before you?

I think Ill make a clean sweep over your argument.

------------------------------------------------

".......I guess you don't know that TSA has the power to take away your Commercial drivers license, your pilots license, ect... WITHOUT any explanation, NOR are you able to challenge their actions in court. Where is the due process when they deprive people of their liberty and property?"

----Tell me, has your drivers license been confiscated recently by the TSA? Have you heard mass reports of confiscations across the country? No, because it doesnt happen. The reason that the TSA's rules exist is for serious cases, like possible criminals or people who are clearly out of line. They cant just go up to random people and take away their licenses- they wouldnt be able to get away with it and it would be completely pointless. Now you are thinking "How can they just take away these things and be able to not get challenged in court?" There is a simple answer. This principle has been used by security and police for maybe seventy years now, maybe more. Police can, legally, at any time, take away any of your rights and put you in jaul if it is deemed neccessary. But it has to be with just cause and evidence against the person or they have to be released from jail. Its the same here, if you are innocent, you have nothing to worry about because nothing will be done to you. Now if Im a terrorist in disquise and if this rule did not exist, even though someone might recognize mefor who I am, no one could stop me without losing extensive, precious time. time in which I could hypothetically blow up a building. Whoops, we're too late with that warrant, better luck next time!

-------------------------------------------------

"You want the Patriot Act. That's fine. First you need to repeal those Constitutional ammendments. Then go ahead and create new ones that declare the government as the ultimate entity, allowing it searches, violations of privacy, ability to arrest, confiscate and revoke things, all without due process. Then you can have your Patriot Act. Right now, that act is nothing but a bastard law that violates the Constitution, forced upon us by criminal career politicians with the mob boss on top signing it."

--The Patriot act does not make the government the ultimate entity no more than it does from any other act. It is simply protecting its people as a result to attacks and preventing future attacks against this country. It does violate privacy (in a very minor way); it does have the ability to confiscate and arrest but it is perfectly legal and perfectly neccessary for the security of this country.

-------------------------------------------------

"The Patriot Act violates the Constitution by presuming a citizen guilty."

---No, you left a critical bit out. It presumes a citizen guilty UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT. So unless you are hiding a bomb in your bag you have nothing to fear. Simple concept.

"Then, it grants permission for searches based on "probable cause" that that citizen is guilty"

---Obviously. Whats the point of security if they knew ahead of time who was guilty and who isnt? They have to SEARCH the people to find out- -oh now it makes sense...

"Then, it grants powers to the TSA to take away drivers licenses, commercial drivers licenses, pilots certificates, ect.... AND YOU CAN NOT CHALLENGE THAT IN COURT."

----Damn strait. If you are a terrorist or a bad guy- that is the minimum that should be happening to you.

------------------------------------------------

"Here's an example. When TSA was first established, they revoked some pilots certificates. Those pilots tried having the decission challenged. They were told that they couldn't. Those pilots couldn't even get their files from the TSA to find out what information ABOUT THEM led to the revokation of their own certificates. They were presumed guilty, had their property (pilots certs) confiscated, ALL without due process."

-Many had good reason to have those certificates confiscated. All had made a mistake, whether it was something they said or done that would have made them seem to be a suspect. You also forget that most pilots got those certificates back after a while and were given a retribution for the trouble caused to them.

-------------------------------------------------

"Your Patriot Act gives them that power. Ultimate, and without checks and balances. If you have known this, and were praising Bush for signing the Patrion Act. Then you deserve what you get."

------Ultimate? By all means no. Get what I deserve? What would that be? I am not a terrorist so nothing will happen to me!

-------------------------------------------------

"The government that is in complete control of you, not you in control of the government. If you didn't know that. Then you haven't researched the Patriot Act beyong what is said in the newspapers and TV, which is not much besides the propaganda that "...it will help us capture terrorists...""

---The Patriot Act and no other that has been created gives the government control of you. And it has helped us capture terrorists and criminals if you would remember. Heres a small amount of proof of people caught with weapons.

http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?theme=8&...90005198004c2ca

I call that good reason for better security.

-----------------------------------------------

"Say good by to "From the People, By the People, and For the People"

--Say hello to "Protect the people, for the people, to save the lives of the people."

-------------------------------------------------

I dont think there needs to be any more evidence or reason than any of what I mentioned already. You keep fighting fact and truth: there are people out there who are waiting for a gap in security- and they wont hesitate to exploit it. And dont give me any BS reply like "It violates the constitution and is violating my rights"- because thats the blind attitude you seem to have. If the Patriot Act is taken away- people are going to DIE! Do you get it! And then, next time it wont be a plane it'll be a car bomb in good old Bay Area California and I hope you end up pretty close to the blast because then you might finally change your mind and get this arrogance out of your head. So either you can give your bags over to the inspectors at the airport and get checked for weapons, along with everyone else- or you can support those terrorists over in the Middle East and wait for the next disaster to happen by eliminating the Act. Because as soon as security laxes, they are going to make their move. Make your choice because next it might be YOU.

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First, I do have a copy of the Constitution.

Second, the Constitution was written so that a lame man could understand it. If you can't understand the quotes such as "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." and ".nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;" then you shouldn't even be able to vote.

Third. It doesn't matter if they were to revoke 100 licenses or 1 license. You seem to completly gloss over the fact that they are VIOLATING THE LAW and there's NO RECOURSE. Police and TSA are COMPLETLY DIFFERENT. Police, can't just arrest you and throw you in jail. Heard about REASONABLE CAUSE? Yeah, that Constitutionals thing again. It applies to police. If they have reasonable cause to arrest you, you HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SEE THE JUDGE WITHIN 3 DAYS. It's called DUE PROCESS. TSA does not abide by the law. They can revoke your licenses, violate your freedoms. WITHOUT any due process, NOR can you challenge their decissions. Understand? If there's an error, and they label you as a danger, for whatever reason, which you can not even find out as to why. You are DONE. That's it. No court, no judge, NOTHING. Now go back to the Constitution and tell me if that's legal. You are aware that any law that contradicts the Constitution is UNCOSTITUTIONAL. Is Patriot Act, therefore, Constitutional? It's plain out ILLEGAL. And Bush should be impeached just for signing it, because he violated his oath of office when he did that.

Fourth. It is NOT legal to confiscate and arrest without the due process. When they can revoke your licenses without re-course, it's not due process. Therefore it violates the Constitution. Also, by the mere fact that you say "...It does violate privacy (in a very minor way)..." you already know that the Patriot Act is illegal.

Fifth. Posted by Black Ghost "---No, you left a critical bit out. It presumes a citizen guilty UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT. So unless you are hiding a bomb in your bag you have nothing to fear. Simple concept." ---- ROFL, have you ever heard about Innocent un-till proven guilty? No? Nevermind then. Nice to see that at least you have the guts to stand up and say that you support an illegitimate law that presumes a citizen guilty until proven innocent. Good to know your enemies.

Sixth. Good to know that you support searches and confiscation of property of citizens who are first presumed guilty, then labeled guilty without the process of courts and him denied the ability to defend himself.

Seventh. Posted by Soback "Then, it grants powers to the TSA to take away drivers licenses, commercial drivers licenses, pilots certificates, ect.... AND YOU CAN NOT CHALLENGE THAT IN COURT."

Posted by Black Ghost----Damn strait. If you are a terrorist or a bad guy- that is the minimum that should be happening to you.

----- Are you following the trail of though here? Did you not understand that you can be totally innocent, but as soon as TSA decides that you are not, you are done. You can not challenge the TSA's actions against you. You can not even find out as to why you were labeled as a suspect. If it's a misstake, you can not correct that misstake. Can you understand that?

Eight. Posted by Black Ghost. "-Many had good reason to have those certificates confiscated. All had made a mistake, whether it was something they said or done that would have made them seem to be a suspect. You also forget that most pilots got those certificates back after a while and were given a retribution for the trouble caused to them."

--- Name at least one good reason. You know how I know that you can't. Because the information as to why they had their certificates taken away was never released. All attempts to take them to court were rejected. There was no reparations, (I am sure you meant that instead of "retribution") because TSA is immune from doing wrong. You obviously do not know about the "Government can do no wrong" law. 1 http://www.fa-ir.org/ai/nowrong.htm http://www.fa-ir.org/ai/monopoly.htm It protects government from lawsuits by citizens, for damages caused. If a police officer smashes into your car, while he is on a chase, or even on duty, he is NOT LIABLE FOR DAMAGES CAUSED TO YOU.

Now, based on what I said above, why don't you go ahead and explain where you pulled the information about the "most pilots go their certificates back", "All had made a mistake, whether it was something they said or done that would have made them seem to be a suspect." and "were given a retribution for the trouble caused to them". Oh, don't bother, we already know where you pulled it from. Keep your mind out of the gutter, I meant the newspapers, TV, and your imagination. Right?

[ 03-20-2006, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Soback ]

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I will respond to your questions later because I dont have much time. There is one thing I would like to know.

Alright, heres a question. For the sake of the argument, lets assume everything you say about the Patriot Act is unconstitutional and unjust. You can now get rid of the act, keep it, or find another solution to the problem. Lets pretend you are the president; what is the course of action you would suggest?

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