Something that Annoys Me - Big Time

[aramike]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kush:

Aramike,

Here in Canada we have a more generous welfare system (and BC probably has the most generous system in the country) and some of us Canadians really value it. Some see social programs that help the less fortunate as a part of our national identity. And some don't. I'm sure you'd find more than a few Canadians, (some Albertans perhaps

) who'd agree with you whole heartedly. But you're gonna find some Canadians who are going to get just as worked up as you get, just on the other side.

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Sure, doesn't matter to me, so long as it is kept clean.

However, there are some inherent problems with the Canadian social programs. Health care is crap. Sure, prescription drugs are easy to come by there (Americans get a lot of their drugs from Canada) but the actual doctor's aren't all that good due to people not being able to choose (correct me if I'm wrong).

A lot of Canadians seem to migrate south to see AMERICAN doctors, because they can have choice here.

That's why I don't think social programs work (Cananda is pretty much a socialist government). When you eliminate choice, you partly take away people's desire to earn choice.

And that is treading upon freedom.

[Kush]

Oh, and Sorrow, if you need to edit your post, just click on the icon with the pencil and paper. You'll see it at the top of your post.

It took me forever to figure that one out.

[Kush]

I hate to break it to you Aramike, but you've been suckered in by propoganda.

In Canada, you can choose any doctor you want. In any region, anytime, anywhere.

I have asthma, and I travel alot. It's real easy to get a new doctor in any part of the country. At one point in time, I had two doctors. Don't tell anyone

The problem here isn't so much choosing a doctor. The problem is underfunding.

Here in Ontario we have a government that wants private healthcare like you have in america. The problem is, he first slashed funding to healthcare, which cause overcrowding. He then started a campaign to try and convince people to move to a private system because he said the system wasn't working. NOBODY BOUGHT IT. There was a huge public outcry and funding was restored.

In the mean time, some patients went without care.

In America, your government actually spends more per capita on health care, and you have a private system. I'd actually love to ramble on, but I gotta head out. I'll give you a small ramble on Canadian health care when I get back.

[aramike]

quote:

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I hate to break it to you Aramike, but you've been suckered in by propoganda.

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Hardly. Do not confuse "propaganda" for an honest "mistake". In fact, if I was sure that I was correct, I would not have said "correct me if I'm wrong".

quote:

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In America, your government actually spends more per capita on health care, and you have a private system. I'd actually love to ramble on, but I gotta head out. I'll give you a small ramble on Canadian health care when I get back.

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We sure do. However, look at my error above and do not mistake it for the FACT that many Canadians go south of the border for their health care. I wonder why that is?

Because, I wasn't totally incorrect.

While you can choose your doctors, you seem to be unable to find PRIVATE health care. Private systems (because they can regulate themselves) tend to have better results because they work on the simple, old, but tried and true "rewards system".

[Guest]

"All welfare or EI users are scum sucking bottom feeders et al etc etc"

After 6 months they are. Look into the classified ads in any newspaper, there are dozens upon dozens of jobs which do not require any special skills. Nowadays, most jobs TRAIN you for it. Heck, COMPAQ hires people that have never touched a computer to be their tech support reps on the phone. "Yes mam, put in the cd and let it fix your system".

Aramike is right when he said people stay in welfare until they get the job they want... which is something more than half of the succesfull proffesionals out there would like to do too. Heck my own father studied what he loved, Marine Biology, tried to get in his field, became one of the countrie's best and most recognized Scuba instructor... and he never could mount a bussiness for more than a year in his field. He managed the family chemical distribution company for more than 25 years through the nation's worse economic period. After being forced to leave our home due to the violence, we are now here in the US and guess what, he worked in HOUSEKEEPING for 2 years and is now working in maintainance in hotels.My own mother, who had NEVER worked in anything also works in housekeeping now.. and her english is very poor. If a 54/40'ish year olds with little english comes to the US and can get a job inmediately, support 2 offspring through 2 years of college and pay a house and 2 cars.. (my sis and I started working as soon as we got our work permits), then how the hell you telling me that people who have lived here all their lives can't get a job???? Get REAL.

Frankly, im amazed how people abuse the welfare system, they have no shame. And since the welfare check pays MORE than a burger-flipper, they sure as heck aint gonna lift their butts and get a job, because papa government will pay him until the parasite finds a job which requires no thinking, no physical effort and no responsabilities and pays well. What this job is, I have no idea, if you can find one let me know!

[Kush]

When I said suckered in by propoganda, I wasn't making a derogotory statement on your deductive capabilities. I've just heard this statement before from Americans and I assume it comes from people who are spreading untruths about the Canadian system. It is untrue that you can't choose your doctor. You can.

Canadian Cancer patients recently had to go to America for treatments. Not because we don't have the facilities here. We do. We have some of the finest cancer treatments in the world. the problem is the Ontario government slashed funding, and then gave cancer patients the choice to go to America, fully paid for by the government. That funding has since been partially returned and fewer patients need to go.

This subject means alot to me beacause my Mother spent her life working in health care in administration and so I've heard decades worth of the good and bad things about the system here. I've also been privy to many stats and studies.

One study pointed out that the quality of care is practically the same between private American and public Canadian hospitals. The differences are very byzantine and both systems have certain upsides and down, but in the end, the quality of care boils down to being practically the same. We have some world leading researchers here, cutting edge technology, experts and techniques.

Another study found that Americans end up paying more for the same quality care.

One plus side for the Canadian system, that most Canadians cherish whenever we watch ER is that everyone is covered for everything. I don't know the American system very well, and you can correct me if I'm wrong (If I've been suckered by propoganda ) but often times it's the middle class in america who are not poor enough to get public care and not wealthy enough to afford private care, who have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars if they get sick. That never happens here. Rich, poor, middle class, it doesn't matter, if you need urgent care, you've got it. No bill, no HMO no nothing. It's very comforting. Particularly if you use the health system alot. (Like I do)

There is some talk here in Ontario about jumping the queue. Giving anyone wealthy enough the ability to pay to go to the front of the line. Now, it already kind of exists. If you're a visiting dignitary, sports star, politician, etc. you can jump the queue. Should we allow the general population to do that. Personally I don't think so. I think it should stay the way it is now, the sickest person goes first. I just think we should put more funding into healthcare, get more doctors and reduce the lines. but that's just me.

I could go on at length about some of the serious problems in our health care system, but they have more to do with managment issues that exists in both private and public systems, and most of it would be very boring for anyone who doesn't care.

Even with all its problems, our healthcare system is still one of the best in the world. Hey, I'm a proud Canadian. So sue me.

[This message has been edited by Kush (edited 03-17-2001).]

[Kush]

And Tac, my parents are immigrants too. They came to Canada at a time when we were enjoying a post war boom. It was great. They got jobs and never would have thought about going on welfare. They would sooner die. And it's hard for immigrants moving to a new country, learning a new language, slaving away at jobs that they are over qualified for, just to put a meal on the table, I agree. But there have been times and there will be times when jobs are very hard to come by, even for those who want work. Yes our parents are hard working, good honest people, but also, they were fortunate at the same time. There are many stories of immigrants who have moved to this country in the middle of a ressesion. The stories are heartbreaking. I'm glad I live in a country wealthy enough to lend a helping hand to hard working, good honest people who want to work but cannot find any. And I know they feel great shame, but they shouldn't.

I have less of a problem with the system. I have more of a problem with certain individuals who abuse the system. There's a difference.

[Kush]

Hey Sorrow, back me up here, wouldja? I'm feeling a little outnumbered.

[Gallion]

quote:

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I have less of a problem with the system. I have more of a problem with certain individuals who abuse the system. There's a difference.

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This is the entire premise of aramike' tirade.

Sorrow sounds like a closet communist to me At least this is what I infer after reading his post.

TTFN

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Rear Admiral Gallion

ICV-Graf Spee, Spectre (Antis)

Executive Officer, Spectre Fleet

"You can only love or hate something you truly understand."

Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series

Leader, Team 1

[Charles Lindsey]

Mike, Sorrow didn't call you one; he just said you had an attitude like one. Subtle difference. Then again, it was very heated. Your call.

Still, only twelve hours on the net is like a split second real time. It is the weekend and all. Perhaps a deep breath and a little more time?

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Vice Admiral Chavik

ICV Phoenix, Sygan Starstation (Sygan)

Fleet Leader - Balor Fleet

Official BC3K Tester

[aramike]

I dunno, Kush, I think you are stretching it with "one of the world's best".

Not more than a MONTH ago I saw a report on FOX News about how Canadians come down to America for their health care (doctor visits). We're not talking about cancer either - this is coughs and colds stuff.

There IS a reason for that, don't you think?

quote:

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I have less of a problem with the system. I have more of a problem with certain individuals who abuse the system. There's a difference.

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As Gallion pointed out, the people that abuse the system is where my problem lies. Furthermore, I have a problem with the system that ALLOWS such easy abuse.

First of all, welfare is not supposed to be a total income. It's DESIGNED to be a SUPPLEMENTARY income.

So, why not totally ELIMINATE the methods that allow people to abuse the system?

W2 isn't just saying "go get a job". W2 is HELPING people find a job. What, exactly, is WRONG with that?

Now, if people simply REFUSE to work, then there's a problem. Those are your ABUSERS. Under W2, they cannot do that.

Will someone PLEASE tell me the problem with FORCING people to get jobs that ARE OUT THERE?

Gallion: For some reason I'm seeing me a hammer and a sickle.

[aramike]

Yeah, Charles, I'll make it until Monday.

But still, telling someone that they have an "attitude like a ... prick" is UNACCEPTABLE on this board. Prefixing an insult with "you have an attitude" hardly takes away from the insult. If everyone went around doing that in this board (which they don't) we wouldn't have a very peaceful board.

This debate was heated but EXTREMELY civil until Sorrow posted. And, it RETURNED to civility now that Sorrow is no longer posting.

[This message has been edited by aramike (edited 03-17-2001).]

[Charles Lindsey]

Aramike, you are correct. Thanks for the extension though.

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Vice Admiral Chavik

ICV Phoenix, Sygan Starstation (Sygan)

Fleet Leader - Balor Fleet

Official BC3K Tester

[Kush]

I agree Sorrow crossed the line, and I'm sure it is possible to keep the civility after a due apology. He's just new. I know I broke the civility rule on this site and was put in my place right quick. And look at me now! It's just a matter of learning the rules. (I hope you guys patch things up soon, it was nice having some backup ).

And I don't know what report you saw on Fox. I know that I wouldn't cross a border to pay for a service I get free here. And, I know we Canadians can be irritatingly condescending sometimes when it comes to America, I won't stoop to that, (I like America, some of my best friends are American) but I think it's safe to say the general sort of attitude here in Canada is that as bad as things get we still have a better system. I guess it's a part of plain old fashioned nationalism. You're gonna think your system is better, I'm gonna think my system is better. And nothing we say to each other is going to change our minds.

And the impression that I get is that you feel the majority of people on welfare are abusing the system. I tend to disagree.

[Kush]

The same way you get reports about Canadians going south to see a doctor, we get reports about people mortgaging their homes, or dying because they couldn't afford health care.

Tit for tat.

[Guest]

"I have less of a problem with the system. I have more of a problem with certain individuals who abuse the system. There's a difference"

In that we agree completely.

The system should have stricter filters though. To have somoene slip 5 years of welfare checks is intolerable.

[aramike]

quote:

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And the impression that I get is that you feel the majority of people on welfare are abusing the system. I tend to disagree.

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That is irrelevent. You still have not answered the following questions that I asked you:

quote:

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W2 isn't just saying "go get a job". W2 is HELPING people find a job. What, exactly, is WRONG with that?

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Will someone PLEASE tell me the problem with FORCING people to get jobs that ARE OUT THERE?

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That is the WHOLE point to the discussion. You seem to be defending welfare. I am NOT attacking welfare. I am simply stating that people should go out and get a job.

So, answer those questions, please.

[Kush]

I actually thought I had answered that question when I said I take it by your attitude you feel that most people abuse the system and I don't.

Aramike, I'm really curious about your age. I'm not being snooty, it's just a cultural reference thing, how old were you in 92 kinda thing.

Now I want you to answer a question for me, is it true about people not being able to get medical care cause they can't afford it? I've always wondered how true that really was.

[aramike]

quote:

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I actually thought I had answered that question when I said I take it by your attitude you feel that most people abuse the system and I don't.

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That wasn't the question, so here it is again: W2 isn't just saying "go get a job". W2 is HELPING people find a job. What, exactly, is WRONG with that?

And the other one: Will someone PLEASE tell me the problem with FORCING people to get jobs that ARE OUT THERE?

It seems as though you are dodging them.

quote:

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Aramike, I'm really curious about your age. I'm not being snooty, it's just a cultural reference thing, how old were you in 92 kinda thing.

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I'll be 35 on Tuesday. Was 26 in '92.

quote:

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Now I want you to answer a question for me, is it true about people not being able to get medical care cause they can't afford it? I've always wondered how true that really was.

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That is not true. The current "Patient Bill of Rights" does not allow ANY patient to be turned away.

[Kush]

Ah, I didn't know that.

So they're not turned away, that's good. Who thought that one up? And what happens if they still can't pay?

[aramike]

quote:

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Who thought that one up?

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The patient's bill of rights? Congress.

quote:

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And what happens if they still can't pay?

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I'm not sure if I understand the question. IF they can't pay, they STILL receive services and are billed. IF they continue to fail to pay, it may go on their credit report.

Each case is unique.

Anyway, I'm resigning from this discussion until you answer those questions. It (especially now) seems as though you are avoiding them.

[Kush]

Oh Aramike, don't pout . I'm sure I answered the question a couple of times. I'll do it again.

I think we differ on how many people abuse the system.

I don't know how kicking people off welfare is helping them get a job. And I'm not sure that there are always jobs out there. We could be heading into another recession and if we are, you'll understand what I mean. (Hopefully not personally )

I think it's really hard to judge how hard someone is looking for a job, and I'm sure we both agree that we should keep the government out of peoples lives as much as possible. If someone is honestly trying their best, applying for jobs and not getting them do you suggest we get a govt official to go to their home and give them the third degree? Should we have someone stand next to them at interviews, criticising them if they don't feel their doing a good enough interview.

I know your answer.

I know there are people abusing the system. It sucks. It happens.

I'm sure there must be a better way of dealing with people who abuse the system, and helping people find jobs than simply kicking them off welfare.

A program we have here in Ontario is called workfare. The government will match you with a job. It pays way below the poverty line and the govt still gives you some money but not as much as before. You're working, and making enough to eat and pay your rent. That's it. The only question I have about this program is does it allow you enough time to search for and apply for jobs that you want, as opposed to a job you need. If it allows you to go for job interviews without any penalty, I'm all for it.

This program, to me, seems like it's actually putting welfare recipients to work and it seems like a much better solution than just kicking people off welfare and wishing them luck.

Now, about this patients bill of rights thing, so what your saying is you will get emergency treatment, but you still have to pay for it, and if you can't afford it, you may still go into debt, have to morgtage your house or declare bankruptcy. Is that true. I don't know anything about the American healthcare system, so forgive me, but I'm very interested in healthcare in general and I'm curious.

Also I saw a report about HMO's and how they sometimes refuse to give patients life saving tests or treatments because they cost too much. I've also seen an episode of ER that deals with this and is this true? Here in Canada, you get the best treatment available, no questions asked. (Even if it means shipping you off to the states to get it. ) It's not about money and the bottom line, it's about keeping you alive. It seems like one of the pitfalls of a private system to me.

[This message has been edited by Kush (edited 03-19-2001).]

[Guest]

I am dumbfounded, Kush, you should know better, your healthcare system is going bankrupt. My Grandmothers boyfriend got cancer, he lived in Edmonton. They waited 6 months before doing surgery, why, because the doctors were all booked up. By that time it was too late and he died. If he had been in the states, he would have been scheduled for immediate surgery, they would have removed the cancer and he would be alive today.

A private system works much better then a public one and always has, and always will. There are quirks in the system, but there always are. The fact is that if an HMO pisses me off, I have the right to go to another health care plan, you in Canada do not, you are stuck.

If a bum(street person) is seriously injured, does not have health care coverage, he WILL NOT be refused emergency services. The hospital has every right to try and get that money out of the bum, but most likely they will write it off and move on.

The reason health care has skyrocketed in the last few decades is mainly the fault of the US government getting involved, vis-a-vis, medicare, medicaid, etc add nauseum.

When the government gets out of the healthcare business, that is when the market will regulate the prices and the prices will come down. That is the way it is supposed to work, but when the government gets involved with thier policies and laws, it stops that process dead in it's tracks. Prices go up, because the government can afford (2 tylenol $20, a bedpan $30,2 nights in a room $800) the private person can't, the prices go up for everyone, because a huge entity can afford it(with our tax dollars by the way). It is a vicious cycle that continues until the government has either taken over and destroyed the medical system, see Canada, or gets out and lets the market handle it, I do not have such an example, sorry to say, accept in old america, late 19th and early 20th century.

Your healthcare system does not work, it is going broke, and if our government would stay out of our PRIVATE healthcare system, it would regulate itself to a point of affordability.

And that is the way economics actually works, not the way politicians think it works.

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CMDR Jaguar

GCV Armageddon, Starpath (Mars)

Prime Fleet, Delta Wing

ICQ# 24007233

External Beta Tester

Battlecruiser Millenium

[This message has been edited by Jaguar (edited 03-19-2001).]

[Guest]

Since this a political Thread, I thought it would be fun to throw in some humor. If one of the CAT finds it offensive or whatever, go ahead and delete it, but I think it is hilarious.

1st Draft of George W. Bush's Inauguration Speech:

My fellow Americans, it's about damn time. All you liberals can just kiss my big, white Texas ass if you think I'm gonna spew a boatload of bipartisan bull****. Let's set the record straight here. I won, dammit. Hell, I won FOUR OR FIVE TIMES, you stupid *******s. We got the Presidency, we got

Congress, and by the end of four years we'll have even more of the Supreme Court. The

Republicans are here, and we're gonna show you how it's done.

Ya'll want me to reach across party lines now? How 'bout I reach across and slap all your sorry-liberal-monkey-asses? How'dya like that? Don't get me wrong, here. The sense of satisfaction I'm feeling right now isn't that I've won, it's that I won't have to listen to Al Gore whine and moan about "letting every vote count".

The only reason this went as far as it did is because you Democrats have a playground crybaby as your poster-boy, and I for one am glad I won't have to see him on TV anymore. This might sound snippy, Mr. Gore, but as we used to say in the sandlot... LOSERS WALK!!!

As I said in my campaign, I promised to be a president who focuses on education. My first task as President will be to start an educational program for all you Florida-idiots who can't tell your elbow from your backside or how to poke a stylus through the right hole.

I don't get you liberal Democrats: when we're talking about Bill Clinton and some office whore, you say that lack of penetration doesn't count; but when it comes to ballots, lack of penetration DOES count. You want a solution to this problem? Take some Viagra, you old farts, and finish what you started

next election. Until then, I want to ask you just one question: "Who's yer daddy???"

And so I humbly accept the office of President of these United States.

Thank you.

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CMDR Jaguar

GCV Armageddon, Starpath (Mars)

Prime Fleet, Delta Wing

ICQ# 24007233

External Beta Tester

Battlecruiser Millenium

[Kush]

I prefer my system.

Yes there are waiting lines here, but there are waiting lines in the states too.

And underfunding is different from bankrupt.

And I'm not talking about a bum on the street, I'm talking about the hard working middle class person who isn't covered. From what we're told, that person is screwed. And I'd rather wait, than never get treatment cause I can't afford it.

And from what I hear, American senior come up here all the time to get their prescriptions filled because the 'market system' in prescribed drugs has pushed the price out of many people reach. There was even a plan by some senator for the America govt to buy prescription drugs from the canadian govt that were manufactured by american companies. I don't think the plan went anywhere, but it was kicked around for a while. I'm glad we don't leave our health care to market forces, I'd rather it focus on keeping me alive than the bottom line.

And on the welfare front, maybe there should be a time limit on how long someone can collect, but whatever that time limit is, it should be fair and take into account the current economy.

And at the same time, the govt should focus on training, upgrading skills and CHILDCARE. It's really important for women on welfare who have children to be able to find affordable daycare. It's a problem here and in the states and must be dealt with. These things will help people not only get off welfare, but also become productive citizens.