U.S.A. versus P.R.C.

[thanatos]

I've got to break the silence; I know there are many out there that are past and present U.S. Servicemen/woman, and we have several members that are non-U.S. citizens. Am I alone in my frustration with the Chinese and their demand for an apology after their interceptor jet collided with our "Big Look" EP-3? I am more insensed by the number of people in polls and "media presentations" that agree we should apologize - say the U.S. is sorry. Other than G. Britain, our allies seem pretty quiet.

The U.S.-Chinese HOSTAGE situation is a mess, but for the U.S. to apologize would be about as poor a foreign policy as I can imagine; what ever happened to Internation law? Are all the other countries, and even some Americans, biting their tongues and saying nothing in hope that someday soon they can sell their goods to the 1 billion Chinese to make themselves rich? At what cost? The good of our nation? The further allowance of an aggressive Chinese stance?

I'd be very interested in your opinions, especially you Army/Navy/Marine/AirForce types, and non-U.S. commanders.

Doc Hoover

[Eclipse]

hehe, well the perverbial cat is out of the bag. Here goes.

1. The Unites States should NOT appologize for the accident. If the US does appologize it will be the latest in a long line of concessions to PRC beginning, in my opinion, with the recognition of mainland China over Taiwan/Formosa. Continuing with these concessions will only weaken the United States position in the world's eyes. With our current state after the debacle of the Clinton administration, we can not allow another disaster in foreign policy dealing with the PRC.

2 My personal opinion is that the PRC does not expect the US to give an apology and knows that the longer the situation is in a deadlock, the more they have to gain from picking apart the technology that was aboard the EP-3. If the PRC played it's card correctly, they will have sustained a minor diplomatic defeat while attaining a significant breakthrough on the technology gap with the US, and thus gaining a strategic(not sure if this is the right one) victory.

3. We have allowed our people and equiptment to be in the custody of the PRC far to long. Every day that their captivity is extended, the longer the PRC has to pick apart the plane, and we don't know exactally how far into the procedure or how successful the procedure to destroy the sensitive data was.

4. The United Stats is not prepared for a nuclear exchange with the PRC. In the event of nuclear war, the US would come out far behind the PRC since our population is concentrated more in the major cities. The PRC's population is more spread out, even if we did destroy the major PRC cities, they would still have a large enough population remaining to partially compensate for the loss of the industrial centers. The only way that the US would win a nuclear conflict would be if there was currently an effective, operational anti-ballistic missile defense system. To my knowledge there is no operational systems protecting the US or its allies nor are there plans for such a system to be operation until 2010(?).

5. The US is not prepared for a converntional war with the PRC, although the chances of success in this realm are much greater. The US has the advantage of a large blue water navy whereas the PRC has focused mainly on a coastal navy. Provided the US can effectively use Carrier Battle Groups(CBG) to close the ocean to PRC troop movements, leaving the PRC with only air units to transport troops to the mainland US. In such a scenario, this would effectively cut the PRC main converntional military to the level of the US military. In such circumstances, I believe US technologicaly advanced weaponry would defeat the PRC... Provided the training of US troops hasn't degraded.

6. I highly doubt that the PRC would only concentrate of attacking the continental US, though with the population resources they may be willing to try. I believe that the PRC would focus on defeating the US allies in asia. I belive that they would attampt to force the US to send troops to defend areas such as Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan and thus dilute the US strenth allowing the US military to be defeated in a peicemeal fasion. The PRC would most likly only concentrate of the contenental US after successful campaingns in Asia. In a similar sense, the US would have to transport its armed forces much farther to reach a battlefield in Asia. The increased length of the supply lines and the PRC numerical superiority would weaken the effectiveness of US troops unless the US could land enough troops in a protected zone to allow the better technology to act as a counterbalence to the nimerical advantage of the PRC.

7. I say all of that to say this: The diplomatic soultion is currently ineffective. If the US truly does not wish this technology to fall into PRC hands, some form of covert strike needs to be sent to assess the extent of the knowledge gleaned by the PRC, eliminate that data as well as the EP-3, and effect the rescue of the hostages. Done correctly, the PRC will only be able to accuse the US for something it has no proof of, but if bungled if could be the springboard for World War III. It comes down to the issue of how much we value the technology aboard that plane. Either way one looks at the situation, there are no good ways to get out of it.

Aaron

[Soback]

I mostly agree with Eclipse, although they do need to be taught a lesson. If not nuking them then at the very least stop buying their products here and a trade embargo.

[Guest]

quote:

---

It comes down to the issue of how much we value the technology aboard that plane. Either way one looks at the situation, there are no good ways to get out of it.

---

I must fervently disagree, The plane is an intellignce bonanza for China, but the fact is, if the technology had not been destroyed before grounding, then the plane would have been destroyed by a cruise missile strike.

Our people are what is important, 24 US military personnel are more then enough to go to war over, but I believe we can do a number of things.

This is taken from a friend of mine, and I couldn't say it better, so here goes.

quote:

---

Egg Foo Nuke: Fishman's Chinese Peace Recipe

Well, I am fed up with the bloody ChiComs. If I were Bush, the ambassador would have

been recalled, all Americans in China warned to leave, all Chinese nationals in America,

including university students, would be told they have five days to clear our borders and an entire naval fleet would be about now closing in on Hainan.

I would then tell the Chinese Military that their nation had been targeted with a thousand ICBMs, that their coastline was lined with nuclear missle subs and that if they so much as frowned at us, I'd turn all hell loose in the Middle Kingdom.

Then, I would land troops on Hainan, take the hostages and blow up the plane.

Following that I would announce to the Olympics committee that if China got the games,America would not be in them. After that I would rescind Most Favored Nation Status for China, close down all ports to Chinese goods and block any release of funds by American banks to Chinese businesses.

Finally, I would send Taiwan four times the military hardware they have asked for, and

declare that the United States recognizes Taiwan as an independant nation and is entering into an agreement to defend the island's sovereignty against all invaders.

My last message to the Chinese would be simple.

"You have misjudged the situation. Call us in seven years. If you have ceased to be a pack of idiots, we'll talk."

---

I think that pretty much says it all!!

See YA!!

Edit: if you want to read something interesting, look at this.

A Risk of Misreading America

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[Eclipse]

Sobeck: Unfortunately trade embargos mean nothing, the only real action that they would take notice of is military action, something the US is ill prepared for currently.

[Supreme Cmdr]

I agree with what Jaguar's friend had to say. Those ChiCom bastards have it coming.

[Gallion]

Ok, I'll bite. I still be in the military, the last thing I want is some incident that will preclude or delay my retirement process that begins in 30 days.

However, contrary to what the college lad Eclispe previously stated, we (the US) are more than ready in the event the current situation w/ the ChiComs (aint heard/read that term in a while) esculates. Anyone remember the Cold War strategy (public knowledge since the '50's) IRT USSR? M.A.D. aka Mutually Asserd Destruction and global nuclear winter. Strategic asset exchange w/ PRC = end of civ as we curently know it. Conventional warfare w/ the ChiComs will be bloody, they be near 2 billion of those buggers

The asian culture (been in that part of the world a plethora of times over the years) is all about the preverbial cat-n-mouse game, and saving face. Read your history folks.

In time, we (the USA) will prevail. What could be done now is for each of use to pay attention to what we buy each and every day. Which means not buying anything with the Made in China label on it

TTFN

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Gallion ]

[Guest]

Gallion, thank you for your service, that's first, 2nd I served 4 years in the US Army, got out just before the Gulf War.

The fact is, China has 18 at most, Nuclear missiles, capable of hitting the mainland US, mainly on the west coast, LA, San Fran, Sacremento, Portland OR (way too close to me) and Seattle WA. The fact is that 1/2 of those missiles will misfire, crash in the ocean, or not even launch, of the other half, at least half of those will not go off, they will crash into thier targets like a 500 lb meteor, we will lose people, but it will not be nuclear winter, nor MAD. China will be committing suicide if it even thinks of launching one of those missiles, and it knows it. We have thousands of missiles, compared to their 18 max.

Dangerous, yes, fatal to the whole of civilization, hardly.

Our military may not be as prepared as 8 years ago, but we can still handle a one theatre war, and that is what this would be.

Read the above link to the article that I posted, and I think you'll see why I believe that the American people, or at least a vast majority may be up and ready for such an action, if it becomes necessary.

We need to bring those brave men and women home, and if a threat of war is what it takes, I say BRING IT ON!!!

Edit: and just for fun, here is my dream E-mail From GW to the PRC.

quote:

---

An e-mail Message To The People's Republic of China

How To Apologize, American Style

To: Premier Zhu Rongji

From: President Bush

The United States is truly sorry that your nation is not capable of training your pilots to fly without striking other aircraft. We are also sorry that you people lack the honor to respect the international laws governing collision avoidance between aircraft when flying in international airspace.

We further regret that you cannot be trusted to respect the integrity of sovereign aircraft forced at gun point to land on your soil after your inept pilot forced a collision. We truly regret the state of incompetence demonstrated by the People's Dictatorship of China.

That being said, you are holding our servicemen hostage, illegally. You are holding our aircraft, illegally. I am sorry to inform you that all your Ambassadors, aides, businessmen, and students currently residing in the United States will have their visas revoked at midnight tonight. I am also sorry to inform you that all Chinese assets in the United States are frozen.

I am sorry to inform Beanie Baby collectors that all imports from the People's Republic of China will be halted. All foreign aid, IMF funds and other aid to the PRC is cancelled.

I am not sorry to announce, however, that sales of advanced technology military equipment to the Republic of China (Taiwan) will be accelerated. Nor am I sorry to announce that two additional carrier battle groups will be assigned to patrol the waters off the coasts of the PRC.

I'm sure I can think of more things to do if I don't have my airmen and airplane returned by midnight, tonight.

Your friend, GW.

---

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[Gallion]

quote:

---

Edit: and just for fun, here is my dream E-mail From GW to the PRC.

---

ROTFLMSAO

TTFN

[Guest]

I feel like I am really filling up this little subject, but it really has me up in arms.

I would like to bring your attention to a letter to our Congress and Senate, from the Chicom ambassodor regarding the 2008 Olympic games possibly being in Bejing(I mispelled that, but so what!!) Anyway, here is the letter, this is REAL!! No joke!!

quote:

---

Text of The Letter From the Chinese Ambassador to Congress

Dear Senator (name obscured):

I am writing in connection with the efforts by some Members of Congress to oppose Beijing's

bid for hosting the 2008 Olympic Games.

You are probably aware that it is entirely under the jurisdiction of the International Olympic

Committee (IOC) to judge whether a city is suitable for the Games. That choice rests with the

IOC and IOC alone. No individual or organization has the right to influence the IOC on the

matter.

The bills in Congress against Beijing's bid, therefore, constitute a gross interference in the

internal affairs and inherent rights of the IOC. Such bills run counter to the spirit of the

Olympic Charter which forbids discrimination against any country or individual, on the basis

of race, religion, politics, sex or any other reason. It would be "incompatible with the capacity

of Olympics" for the US Congress to obstruct, under the pretext of human rights, Beijing's bid

and China's efforts to contribute to the Olympic Movement, world peace and development.

Beijing's bid has enjoyed the enthusiastic support of its population of 12 million and 1.25

billion Chinese people, including those in Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan. Any attempts to

deny China's right to host the Games is a challenge to the universal principle of human rights

which will be met with the strong opposition from the Chinese people and all the

justice-upholding people the world over.

I trust you will find the above helpful for your understanding of the issue.

Sincerely,

Yang Jiechi

Ambassador

---

Now, this is the response that a member of my political forum at Ironpants.com Wrote up, I thought it was perfect, I hope telling my webpage was OK.

quote:

---

The obscured Senator's response should be something like:

Dear Jiechi,

When Beijing was (past tense deliberate) being considered to host the 2008 Olympic games

there was a U.S. view of China as a government that had turned a new leaf of peace and

eagerness to harmonize with the rest of the free world, eschewing the ways of past warlord

military threat of those who would keep China separate from free world policies of the 21st

century.

The recent events with 24 Americans being held hostage -- their U.S. surveillance aircraft

hi-jacked -- shows this is not so, and unfortunately for people of China, is evidence that the

Chinese government is lacking in the stability needed to entrust with the well-being of the

world's greatest athletes.

Too bad. So sad. Kiss my butt.

Signed, an obscure Senator

Have a nice day. :^)

---

And has anyone noticed the stock market? It is going ape crazy!! Wonder if this China thing has anything to do with it. Bush being a little gutsy, given them some confidence?

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[Guest Mikel]

http://www.hackworth.com/archive.html]Here are some intresting articles on the US military.

[thanatos]

It does my heart, and my patriotic spirit, good to see I'm in a community of outraged/irratated/frustrated citizens. Is this feeling just arrogant American nationalism, or righteous indignation?

Why are we so afraid of creating a response where the reckless Chinese "lose face"? I have got to be missing something. I remember we shot down jets that violated what we considered International Airspace off the coast of Libya, with our old nemesis Kadafi, a while back. Now we are worried about embarrassing the ChiComs? Have we changed that much as a country; what else is at work here that I'm missing?

I suppose we either play the tough, but sincere, diplomacy route, or begin a true saber rattle. I don't think our modern-day society of soft-hearted Americans are ready for the latter, even if the military is capable of backing up our bluster. It doesn't feel right to their sensitivities.

I'm still in shock at the lack of total condemnation of this overtly hostile action by other nations, the U.N., and especially our "allies" (other than the Brits, on whom loyalty to friends never stops shining). Did appeasement of A. Hitler, or more recently S. Hussein effectively disengage them from their path.

I especially liked hearing multiple liberal politicians, eg.-Diane Feinstine (?sp), D-CALIF, saying how she was so sorry. She was very sorry because of the threat this is to the multimillion dollar business her husband has going with the PRC.

It's probably a good thing I'm not the President; the first time they demanded an apology I would've said, "Yea,...I'm sorry. I'm sorry the other interceptor pilot in that p.o.s. junk-jet didn't crash, and that you guys are such pr*cks! You want a piece of this country, then let's dance."

That's me,........good old compassionate,

Doc Hoover.

[Guest]

quote:

---

It's probably a good thing I'm not the President; the first time they demanded an

apology I would've said, "Yea,...I'm sorry. I'm sorry the other interceptor pilot in that

p.o.s. junk-jet didn't crash, and that you guys are such pr*cks! You want a piece of this

country, then let's dance."

That's me,........good old compassionate,

---

ROFLMSAO!!

Oh YES!!!

OK, you get 5 stars!!! LOL

[Supreme Cmdr]

I believe that the act of the Chinese pilot was deliberate and rigged to look like an accident in order to force the plane down.

The ChiCom bastard is probably sitting on an island somewhere, laughing his ass off.

Where are the covert ops teams when you need 'em? I want to wake up one morning and hear on CNN that we went in, got our 24 guys, blew up the plane and left....while they were sleeping. Man, now that would be embarassing.

[Eclipse]

Gallion: I concede the points about our prepardness. You have a better perspective on the subject than a civilian like myself.

[Guest]

CNN.com is reporting that's there's good evidence that the F-8 made several near miss passes to the spy plane before it eventualy struck it. Either he was all out of Grey Poupon or it was infact deliberate.

[Guest Blackwell]

Gentlemen,

Ok, here we go. I am in most instances a lurker. But I feel compelled to post in this instance. This topic is red hot and I am clearly aware that many of the BC community members are current or former military personell. I have the highest regard for people of any country that give off themselves for the defense of their nation. With that said I hope to pose a decenting but hopefully respectable point of view.

1. It is probably safe to say that mutual acts of survaliance have been occuring for a number of years between both countries.

2. It is probably also safe to say that incidnets have occured that we "The public" know nothing about.

3. It is absolutely crazy to think that the inteligence division of a major power would not jump at the chance of tearing the plane appart. REMEMBER WE WOULD AND HAVE DONE IT IN THE PAST!

4. I must also point out that any attempts to avoid chinesse products would be at best, extremely dificult. Gentlemen, like it or not we live in a global economy. Look around in the room you are sitting in right now and I can practically guarantee that most of the itmes in it are either partially or entire produced abroad. Some litle chinesse woman probably made half the "toys" we play with. Yes that includes the components of the monitor you are looking at righ now.

5. Gentlemen, please understand that my comments do not in any way sudgest that the US shoul lie down and accept the detainment of their service men. I just wish to point out that they are being used as political pawns by BOTH governments.

6. I predict that the service men will be returned safely with out the use of military options. I predict that the plane will be returned much later in little crates (like we did to the Russians) I further predict that incidents like this will occur again in the future. It is a part of the dangerous cat and mouse seriousnes (it is not a game in my eyes) that occurs GLOBALY on a DALY basis.

7. Dont believe all that you see or hear in the popular media. There is always more than one side to any story.

I hope this post will encourage healthy discussion.

Respecfully,

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Blackwell ]

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Blackwell ]

[Guest]

Interesting point of view, but the fact is that they hijacked this aircraft after hitting it with their fighter. From what I understand, the Chicoms actually shot at the plane to keep it on course to the island.

We did this with the Russians for more then 40 years, and NEVER had such a thing happen, we had a gentlemans agreement, you look at us, we look at you, and we go home, as long as we stay in International waters.

That is where we were, the Chinese buzzed our "surveilance Aircraft" because that is what it is, not a U-2, or an SR-71, which are spyplanes, but an EP-3, a propeller driven aircraft. International law states that the faster and more maneuverable aircraft will stay away from the slower and less maneuverable aircraft. This is the way it has always been.

This was a blatant act of piracy and could if looked at in the proper perspective, an act of WAR!!!

The Chinese are at fault, and are therefore responsible for sending the aircrew home without delay.

This is a test of the Bush administration, and also to see if they could get their hands on the technology that they couldn't buy from Clinton. They failed, our aircrew is trained to DESTROY every piece of equipment on that aircraft and did so. I know, because I was trained in such procedures, being based in Turkey, with top secret communications gear.

The Chinese had better figure out the error of their ways, before we(the US) get REALLY PISSED OFF. See above link that I put in for "A Risk of Misreading America". Because they are taking an awful chance, and it could and will blow up in their faces, if they don't send that plane and it's crew home.

[Guest Blackwell]

Jag,

I respecfully disagree on multiple points.

I doubt that the dead personell on both sides of the cold war care that there was a "gentleman's agreement", but that is a whole other thread.

I recognize that it is impotant, no essential that military opersonell have a strong heart felt dislike of their opponent. Well spined news or "propaganda" has been used in the US at least as effectively as the countries that we oppose. This is essential to maintaing "political will" and marked the difference between vietnam and the persian gulf war.

I digress...Let us not be naive here. We can be cold underhanded sun's of b's when we want to. All I am saying with my posts is that we the non-naive can't possibly be surprised when other nations do it to us. That surprise or I dare say arrogance undermines our prepardeness our clarity of thought. I suspect that the Bush administration has a number of poeple that have been "around the block" and know how to handle this situation. THIS STUFF IS NOT NEW. What worries me is the propaganda that is even out of the militaries control (unlike the old days) that leads to imflamatory speculation by armchair quaterbacks talking about nuclear options FOR GOD'S SAKE!. WE have have had much more serious incidents than this. Let us not get out of hand. Bush will do the necessary posturing, the PRC will do the necessary posturing. Some, not much, inteligence will be lost. The service men will return, some congressmen will get an upserge in populartiy do to this, the economy will see some postive 'blow back' and life will go on.

I hope to hear more points of view.

Respectfully,

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: Blackwell ]

[Guest]

The folks in Aces High definetely got this one right:

US APOLOGIZES TO CHINA!

http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/f...=2&ID_Message=4

[Tekrebel]

I am so disgusted with the attitute of the american people. As if the US wouldn't do the same if they were in the PRC position. The pilots in the plane knew the game: when you spy, you can get caught and shit happens. The chinese are the only one who got people dead in this incident and now all you guys get all patriotic and say we must nuke their ass or launch a few cruise missiles in their cities?!? Excuse me while I puke. I guess you're all brainwashed by the media that tries to convince you of the threat the "evil chinese empire" is posing. The US get all angry and shit when a few of their soldiers die but what about the thousands of other soldiers AND CIVILIANS who died in Iraq, Kosovo and other wars against "The Bad Guys"?!

Down with the US emperialism and the mindless nationalism. Open your eyes and stop pretending you're the best country in the world and that everyone else has to be like you. Go in to China and maybe you'll see that there's friendly people there who don't deserve to get nuked or bombed just like in the US.

Oh man, I can feel the flames coming my way...

[Guest]

Oh, Tekrebel, what was that?

OH MY GOD!!! that was hilarious!!!

The fact is that the Chinese started this, we were NOT spying, if we had been in their airspace, it would have been spying. We were in International waters, we were surveying, there is a difference!!

The fact is that the Chinese got aggressive and their pilot supposedly dies because of his stupidity. There is International law regarding this very thing, and the Chinese CHOSE to ignore it. The fact is we would not have crashed our Fighter into a propeller driven aircraft, and we sure as hell would not have forced it to land within our borders.

We are the ONLY superpower, we have every right to be pissed off when some little commy country decides to trifle with us, no matter how big it's population.

We are proud of our success, as we should be, I am not going to feel guilty because we are richer and more resilient then the rest of the world. It is because of our sytem and freedoms, not because of our ARROGANCE as you have put it. We want the whole world to know what freedom is and what it can be.

You may have a problem with that, but the fact is we could take over the world pretty much any time we wanted to, we could annex your country pretty much in a heartbeat, have we? No, because we feel people should choose for themselves, we will show them the door, but will not force them through it.

We are a freedom loving people, and as long as you leave us alone, and our allies, and our national interests, we will leave you alone, but China did what would be called in any other words, a hijacking, and in other words a blatant act of war.

You don't like it, well too fricking bad bud!!!

Because you are not one of us!! So you have no say in the matter!!

Bush and his staff are the best this country has to offer, they will get it right, and we can scream and yell as much as we want, but what they do is what matters. They will not do anything like Nuke them, but you may be surprised at what they do do.

We the American people are PISSED, you don't mess with our people, we have a Bush in the White House, and he'll KICK YOUR ASS IF NECESSARY!!!

We sound off, and yes we say some pretty wild things, but WE CAN!!! We have the Bill of Rights in this country, and we can say whatever the hell we want. No matter how much it may upset your sweet little sensibilities, and your political correctness!!

Enough of that, I am very pleased with the patriotic and nationalistic responses I have seen so far. The Chinese have miscalculated BIG TIME, and are going to learn that Bush is not little Kiss up Clinton!!!

Edit: I wish to apologize in advance to the SC, if I went too far with this post, it is your board and you may edit it or delete it if I did go too far. I will not be offended.

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[Guest Remo Williams]

Amen to that Jaguar! I couldn't have said it better myself

[Parias]

Here, some humor to make sure this thread doesn't spontaneously combust like the last one. Glad to see you're all keeping it civil guys... uh, mostly

[Guest Blackwell]

T,

Your mistake was to generalize. You cannot use words like "the american people" it is too broad and will definetly elicit proudly nationalistic responses like Jags and delutes your point.

J,

Your response and point of view is predictable for a service man and I would not dream of changing it. It is required for your loyal service to the US and my rights to speak my mind are protected by people like you...

However, I still urge caution the pride that is noticable in your tone is a hair away from arrogance and THAT IS DANGEROUS.

We cannot afford as a nation to be arrogant or it will be our downfall. Lets be confidnet, assertive and take care of business but NOT arrogant. It leads to complacency and sense of entitlement that can be capitalized upon by adversaries. LET US NOT FORGET THE LESSONS FROM THE PAST.

Lastly I must say that the true gem of the US is that opinion can sway like a pendulum. THE far right should pray to GOD each night for the far left and the far left should do the same for the far right. It is the fact that both coexist is what makes the US what it is. There are promblems here, some very serious that will take generations to overcome, but there is hope. When one opinion is the only one that matters (no matter how "right" the opinion is) hope is lost. Let us not forget that when we observe the world as a whole.

Repecfully ending my posts on this topic,