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thanatos

U.S.A. versus P.R.C.

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Holy crap, I leave for a few hours and I come back to find people posting more diatribes that make my missives look like news briefs!! wtf!! Since when did I lose the rant championship.

Anyway, I just want to say that the Bush admin (I'm not a fan) did a good job.

All they need to do now to punish China is to admit Taiwan to the UN, sell 'em all the weapons they want and make sure China doesn't get to host the olympics.

...can't wait. I BET that if Taiwan is recognized as an independent nation, there will be war between China and Taiwan. And we'll get dragged into it. woohoo!!!, we get to kick their ass. I think.

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Guest Mikel

[Lecture mode 1]

On paper, we are leaps-and-bounds ahead of the Chinese, military wise.

IRL, most US military units are being downsized, the military is not meeting it's quota, running out of 5.56mm and 9mm ammo, and running out of a bunch more (Cause a admiral would rather spend that 10k for spare parts/ammo to remodel his house).

If we engage in a military action of "strategic" bombing, a naval blockade and bombardment, and don't send any land units on shore, we'll "win".

If we send any land units ashore, they'll be swamped by enemy troops (often conscripts pressed into service) that carrying cheap, numerous chinese copies of weapons.

No matter what you've been told, have a 100:1 ratio (at least) outnumbering you gives the enemy a great advantage.

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Hey at least the crew is comming home. Quick comment about Chinese goverment:

"they suck ass"

Forcing crap down the throat of the Tibetan people, killing their own people etc... I hope the U.S will teach the Chinese goverment a lesson. Well, other than that... not much to say on the subject...yeah, I will give Mr.Bush a B+...

Peace...

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All the bluster and posturing on this thread is definatly entertaining, but that's all it is, entertaining hyped up opinion from people who (myself included) are not privy to the inner workings of america/china relations.

The fact is opening up china to american business is WAAAAY more important to America than a spy plane, or Taiwan, or anything for that matter. It started with Nixon and continued with every president up to this current president. There will be talk of reprisals from both sides, but that's all it will be, just talk. Within months, talk will turn to opening up business channels, trade missions, a slap on the wrist for human rights violations and business will literally go on as usual.

But hey, let's get crazy for a moment and think for a second about what would happen if it came to war, and America decided to use all its force on China the old fashioned way. My guess is America would win. Having the largest army in the world only is a threat to your immediate neighbours, not an ICBM. But wars aren't fought the old fashioned way anymore. The loss of human life would be so vast on both sides that it would be very VERY hard to convince the American public that this would be a good idea. Let alone the other nations of the world. And correct me if I'm wrong, but no military commander, worth their training, places any life, that of soldiers or civilians, into danger reckelssly. China may be an evil regime, but that is something the chinese will have to deal with on their own.

I'm glad the old days are over, I hope that my children and my children's children never witness a war and eventually live in a world where it is no longer necessary, but gosh darn it, there's a side of me that would love to see a couple of first world nations kicking the crap out of each other.

(I should save these urges for GCO )

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Guest Mikel

quote:

But hey, let's get crazy for a moment and think for a second about what would happen if it came to war, and America decided to use all its force on China the old fashioned way. My guess is America would win. Having the largest army in the world only is a threat to your immediate neighbours, not an ICBM. But wars aren't fought the old fashioned way anymore. The loss of human life would be so vast on both sides that it would be very VERY hard to convince the American public that this would be a good idea. Let alone the other nations of the world. And correct me if I'm wrong, but no military commander, worth their training, places any life, that of soldiers or civilians, into danger reckelssly. China may be an evil regime, but that is something the chinese will have to deal with on their own.

here gives some excellent insight into the current US military.

I'm afraid to say, but China doesn't care about how many citizens it loses. Your assuming that the Chinese has similar training to the US.

If the Chinese cared about their troops or citizens then they'd put more value on them. The troops would get good training, good weapontry, generals that can win battles (not generals that agree with them politcally).

The US military during peacetime is a disgrace. We'Ve got troops in Kosov, Korea, Japan, Turkey, Germany, probably got some down in South America too.

Morale is at a very low point. Troops are getting inadequete training (They get 1-2 hours a day of "sensitivity training), getting equipment they don't need (The F-15, F-14, and F-16 will let us keep our edge for now; do we really need a multi-billion dollar F-22 that, like most US planes today, has more downtime then air time?), and their being killed in areas that has no effect on the national security of the US.

To sum it up, in a land battle, the Chinese would likely employ geurilla (sp?) tactics with their well-trained and equiped troops and use consacripts for the man fighting. Any US land unit would get overwhelmed.

quote:

I'm glad the old days are over, I hope that my children and my children's children never witness a war and eventually live in a world where it is no longer necessary

Feel the same way, but it'll very likely never happen.

quote:

but gosh darn it, there's a side of me that would love to see a couple of first world nations kicking the crap out of each other.

First world, Second World, or Third World?

A first world country would be the US, a second world would be something like Japan (I think), a third world country would be South Africa.

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Guest

First world nations are industrialized, second world are those that have a good time becoming industrialized, third world are those that are on the beggining stages of industrialization.

Most of south america falls under 2nd world, china falls under 2nd world, Japan is a 1st world nation, the great majority of african nations are third world.

Kush is correct, bussiness is far more important than china's human rights record. Its not "our problem", but we (UN nations) just like to ***** about it.

However, a serious breach on international law and breaking an international agreement is very, very bad. It sets a precedence that any nuclear-armed nation can simply toss aside international law and get away with it.

So no, this thing is not over yet, the international community must show china and any other nation that the law is there to maintain stability, not to jeopardize it.

Taiwan, the time is now, press for UN backing!

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You know Jaguar, in one post you say you have Chinese friends in Taiwan, and in the next post you refer to their beady eyes. Am I the only person here who finds that narrow-minded and absurd?

Thank god your not in a decision-making position in our government.

~Pioneer

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Whoa, you guys talking about military issues is giving me a headache as inaccuracies abound.

Mikel:

quote:


If we send any land units ashore, they'll be swamped by enemy troops (often conscripts pressed into service) that carrying cheap, numerous chinese copies of weapons.

Reminds me of the Iraqis'. Remember that war? Morale was so low, troops were undertrained, underfed, and under-equipped that MOST of them elected to not even TRY to fight.

quote:


No matter what you've been told, have a 100:1 ratio (at least) outnumbering you gives the enemy a great advantage.

HARDLY. Men with guns aren't an issue if they are not even on the same continent as OUR men with guns. Further, the Iraqis had us outnumbered HEAVILY as well, but look what happened to them because they did not have the training OR technology of the US.

The Chinese really have no advantages MILITARILY in a war with the US.

Kush:

quote:


The loss of human life would be so vast on both sides...

Where do you get THAT idea? With today's military doctrines, loss of life is LOWER than it was during the Civil War or even World War era.

Second, the US would have two MAJOR military advantages, one coming from the other: technology, initiative.

Here's why the US would most likely not even break a sweat:

  • We control the sea lanes. As such, the Chinese would be completely UNABLE to transport their troops, ANYWHERE.

  • The Chinese have a VERY limited nuclear arsenal. In other words, they would NOT use them as their use would justify the use of OUR arsenal, which is VAST, reliable, and MUCH more powerful. While two Chinese nukes may hit the US, hundreds of warheads raining on China is obviously undesirable to the Chinese government. Therefore, they simple would not use them.

  • The Chinese use mandatory conscription. And as a result, their army, while VAST, has a very low morale. I think the Gulf War adequately showed that, if troops don't want to fight, they WON'T.

  • One American tank is the technological and capability equivolent of ten Chinese tanks. Add to that CAS (close air support) and Chinese armor would not stand a chance.

  • One American platoon is the equivolent of 12 Chinese platoons in training and equipment. Morale-wise, they'd probably deter resistance after an engagement or two.

Mikel:

quote:


If the Chinese cared about their troops or citizens then they'd put more value on them.

That is flawed. The Chinese citizens and troops ARE the Chinese. Believe me - they care. If troops don't want to fight, they won't.

quote:


The US military during peacetime is a disgrace. We'Ve got troops in Kosov, Korea, Japan, Turkey, Germany, probably got some down in South America too.

That's not based upon a very good assessment, because it is untrue. Yes, US troop DEPLOYMENT is a disgrace (thank you, Clinton). However, the US military is by FAR the most highly trained and motivated fighting force in the world. To call them a disgrace is unfair and inaccurate.

quote:


Morale is at a very low point. Troops are getting inadequete training (They get 1-2 hours a day of "sensitivity training), getting equipment they don't need (The F-15, F-14, and F-16 will let us keep our edge for now; do we really need a multi-billion dollar F-22 that, like most US planes today, has more downtime then air time?), and their being killed in areas that has no effect on the national security of the US.

Again, most of that is inaccurate. Gallion, do you get 1-2 hours a day of sensitivity training? I don't remember such a thing.

Also, US morale is at a rather high point. Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen seem to have more pride in what they do than most anytime in the history of this country.

quote:


To sum it up, in a land battle, the Chinese would likely employ geurilla (sp?) tactics with their well-trained and equiped troops and use consacripts for the man fighting. Any US land unit would get overwhelmed.

1 - Such tactics would literally be useless with today's technology. Thermo-detection, infrared goggles (night vison), and elecfield detectors are just SOME of the equipment that would make guerilla warfare useless.

2 - I'm gettin the impression that you're thinking that US land units operate under the same doctrine as Vietnam. They don't. For one thing, US land units are HEAVILY mechanized. Another thing is that, with technology, even in Vietnam-style combat, the US troops would cut through the Chinese like a hot knife through butter. Knowing the location of the enemy before it knows your location is 90% of the battle.

The US would completely wipe out any opposition, in my opinion. But I doubt they'd have to. If the Gulf was any indication of what a superior force (in numbers) would do against a superior force (in every other category), there is really nothing to worry about. Remember - the Chinese are people. They don't want to die any more than you do. Add to that their poor training and equipment, and you have a force that is barely capable of contesting the US military if they even wanted to.

[ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: aramike ]

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quote:


You know Jaguar, in one post you say you have Chinese friends in Taiwan, and in the next post you refer to their beady eyes. Am I the only person here who finds that narrow-minded and absurd?

NO racist comments on this board please. Offenders WILL be booted WITHOUT warning.

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Pioneer, SC, I don't think Jaguar was using "beady little eyes" in reference to the Chinese people. I think he was referring to the criminals, dictators, etc. of the Chinese government.

I tend to refer to those types of people as ones with "beady little eyes" too - no matter what race they are. You know, that's a reference to when people's pupils constrict when they are planning something diabolical.

In other words, that phrase comes from 18 century fiction as a way to identify criminals.

[ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: aramike ]

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Guest

Pioneer,

Did you really say that? did you really not understand what I meant?

quote:

You know Jaguar, in one post you say you have Chinese friends in Taiwan, and in

the next post you refer to their beady eyes. Am I the only person here who finds

that narrow-minded and absurd?

The fact is that I was talking about the Chinese Government, and if you couldn't figure that out......

Yes, You are the only one!!!

Geez!!!

Edit: Posted at almost the same time, yes, Thank you Aramike!!

quote:

but it still does not excuse thier tyrannical government keeping thier little beady eyes out for any kind of weakness to exploit in order to tear apart some other persons world, and therefore get more power for themselves.


Notice the Tyrannical government, just before little beady eyes?

You really didn't understand that?

[ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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Guest Mikel

quote:

Reminds me of the Iraqis'. Remember that war? Morale was so low, troops were undertrained, underfed, and under-equipped that MOST of them elected to not even TRY to fight.

Yes..and thats when we actually had a military that *could* do a Desert Storm/Shield operation.

quote:

HARDLY. Men with guns aren't an issue if they are not even on the same continent as OUR men with guns. Further, the Iraqis had us outnumbered HEAVILY as well, but look what happened to them because they did not have the training OR technology of the US.

They had the US (excuse me, UN) forces outnumbered, but it took 6 friggin months from the start to the finish for Desert Storm/Shield. How many people are going to wait 6 months for forces to be built up?

quote:

The Chinese really have no advantages MILITARILY in a war with the US.

Your wrong. 1)The Chinese will have the advantage of defense and knowing the terrain.

2)They have a reason to fight; to defend their homes and country.

quote:

That is flawed. The Chinese citizens and troops ARE the Chinese. Believe me - they care. If troops don't want to fight, they won't.

And then they'll be shot for not fighting. Just like in the US military if you refuse to follow a immoral order, you'll be tried for treason/insubordination.

quote:

That's not based upon a very good assessment, because it is untrue. Yes, US troop DEPLOYMENT is a disgrace (thank you, Clinton). However, the US military is by FAR the most highly trained and motivated fighting force in the world. To call them a disgrace is unfair and inaccurate.

I'm not calling them a disgrace; I'm saying that their morale is being degraded by "peacekeeping" operations and the continual restrictions their being put under.

quote:

Again, most of that is inaccurate. Gallion, do you get 1-2 hours a day of sensitivity training? I don't remember such a thing.

Also, US morale is at a rather high point. Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen seem to have more pride in what they do than most anytime in the history of this country.

It's only happened recently under Mr. Clinton. How would you like, after "peacekeeping" in Kosovo for X months, going home for a month or so and then being sent to another "peacekeeping" spot?

quote:

1 - Such tactics would literally be useless with today's technology. Thermo-detection, infrared goggles (night vison), and elecfield detectors are just SOME of the equipment that would make guerilla warfare useless.

2 - I'm gettin the impression that you're thinking that US land units operate under the same doctrine as Vietnam. They don't. For one thing, US land units are HEAVILY mechanized. Another thing is that, with technology, even in Vietnam-style combat, the US troops would cut through the Chinese like a hot knife through butter. Knowing the location of the enemy before it knows your location is 90% of the battle.

1)I'm afraid you overestimate technology. Guerilla tactics are effective (as is being proven in Kosovo). Plus, do you think they keep every unit equiped with SOTA (State of the art) equipment? Plus remember, all equipment is made by the lowest bidder.

2)Your right...they'll probably operate under different restrictions. After all, most of the high brass cares more about being promoted and getting their paycheck then keeping their units combat ready. Oh, yes. Knowing where the enemy it located is part of the battle. Defeating them is another.

quote:

The US would completely wipe out any opposition, in my opinion. But I doubt they'd have to. If the Gulf was any indication of what a superior force (in numbers) would do against a superior force (in every other category), there is really nothing to worry about. Remember - the Chinese are people. They don't want to die any more than you do. Add to that their poor training and equipment, and you have a force that is barely capable of contesting the US military if they even wanted to.

I'm afraid they they can very likely do well against the US military. How many hours does a plane spend on the ground rather then up in the air? How many hours are spent on the marksmenship/PT a day?

Oh yes, remember what happened in WWII between Germany and Russia?

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To be honest, an attack is actually being waged by the West against the Chinese every day, but it's not a military offensive. By opening up business channels, and trade, we in the west can create change in a way more powerful than any bullet or bomb. By flooding China with Western movies, books, magazines, products, with wester IDEAS, we can light a fire of change that is already burning.

Dissent already exists in China from student activists to politicians to certain military leaders. If you were to declare war on China you may be able to win all the military battles, but you would never ever be able to rule the people. The country is too massive. They can barely maintain order themselves. The best way to create lasting change is from within.

With every trade mission, with every accord, every product we can change the government more effectively and permanently without firing a shot. The problem is, this method takes a very very long time to work, and it's not as exciting as watching stuff blow up, but it's more effective, and the change is more lasting because the dissent comes from within the country, not from without.

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Dunno Kush, the Chinese are doing a great job at keeping Western influence to a minimum. But yeah, the best way to change a country to do it with the people.

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Guest

I have been keeping an eye on some of the stories coming out of China, and our little apology is beginnning to really make the citizens angry.

The Chinese Government had said that it would get a real apology from the US and would settle for nothing less, well, they did settle for less, and the Chinese people know it. They are getting angry, just like I knew they would. Should be interesting to watch in the next few weeks.

The Chinese Governments propaganda machine is incredible, and if they don't come up with a good explanation real soon, they will have riots on thier hands.

They got thier people all up in arms about our "Spyplane" landing on thier soil without permission, and how it bumped thier fighter, making it crash and killing it's pilot.

The people are very angry at us, and if I were them, getting the info they are getting, I WOULD BE PISSED at us too. The fact is they see it as losing face to the western Imperialists.

The Chinese government overplayed its hand on this one, and I think they just went bust.

Watch for internal government strife as well as civil strife in China over the next few weeks, thier government may have bitten off WAY more then it could chew this time.

Let's hope so!!!

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Took me a while to get some spare time. Got a two star showing and everyone is running around with their heads chopped off

quote:

Again, most of that is inaccurate. Gallion, do you get 1-2 hours a day of sensitivity training? I don't remember such a thing.

Aberdeen has been over for a while now. After the initial political and liberal backlash smack, this sensitivity training aka bovine excrement is next to none existant.

Only advantage the chicom have is their vast numbers. What they lack in tech they make up for in numbers. A protracted ground war will be bloody for both sides. The ChiCom do not need to control the sea-lanes to move or resupply their forces. Check your geography.

Looks a if aramike is having a blast with this thread Don't forget to cry uncle Mikel when ye thinks ye has had enough.

TTFN

[ 04-13-2001: Message edited by: Gallion ]

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Funny! My rating used to be 5 stars, now it's dropped to 4. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that I decided to freely express some of my ideas in this forum.

Anyway I don't really give a damn about this rating system. The only reason I read and post here is because I love this game, so anybody feeling like removing some stars from my rating is welcome to do so.

Heck I'd be proud to be the first Cmdr demoted all the way down from 5 stars to none

Now back to BCM

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Thanks Gallion!

Mikel: That is probably the most mature thing I've read on here in a long time. Seriously.

Hector: You got five stars from me, bro. IMO it shouldn't be what you say so much as how you say it.

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