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And so it Begins...


rhett
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Survival of the fittest I believe it's called. Socialism is well intentions at their worst. Maybe everyone has a job in Communism, yet so did everyone in Nazi Germany - does that make it a good system? I don't think so IMHO. Hitler had good intentions too (he was just psychotic).

Darwinism at its extreme. I'll never accept the idea that only "the fittest" deserve to live. I prefer a system with good intentions over a system with inhumane apathy.

Hitler and other fascists never had any good intentions either. They recognized raw resentment among the people and used a scapegoat to direct that resentment for their own political ends. Hitler's intention was to become the dictator of Europe. That doesn't sound good to me.

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Sad but true, however it isn't up to the state to make jobs in our society.

Who says we need a state at all?

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Free market economy allows for

people to govern their own trade.

Sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work well in practice. Ask anyone who owned one of the 2/3 of businesses that fail in their first year, leaving the "governors of individual trade" with debts that they can't pay off.

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And anyone who isn't working for someone has the opportunity to go into

business themselves, or refuse to work and become a liability to taxpayers.

Just as the market is incapable of sustaining enough jobs, it is also incapable of sustaining enough business opportunity. As I said before, two thirds of people who go into business themselves end up penniless within the year. The problem is not that the owners of these businesses weren't smart enough or worked hard enough. The problem is that no market has or ever will have the sustainable capacity.

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I don't think you find many

starving people over here thanks to these socialist welfare state practices, but I think a majority of them are abusing the system because they can get something for free. Human nature.

The welfare system was not a socialist idea, and it does much more than just keep people alive. The concept of a welfare system within capitalism was developed by an economic theorist called John Maynard Keynes. The idea is that by providing wealth to the unemployed through taxation, the unemployed are able to purchase goods and services in the market, thus they become consumers and a source of aggregate demand. Therefore, a welfare system that supports the unemployed is actually healthy for the capitalist economy, because it provides businesses with more people to whom they can sell goods and services.

I have no doubt that a minority of people may be abusing welfare, but that's not because of human nature (you seem to have ignored my entire rebuttal about human nature in my previous post).

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Of course if you are working for someone, you can't expect to make the same thing they are making.

You should be making more than that someone, because you're doing all of the hard work.

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As far as giving back as little as possible, that's a pessimistic Communist argument. I guess human nature is driving that factory owner or something...

It may be pessimistic and communist, but it's also true, and the factory owner is not being driven by human nature. That factory owner is driven by the pressure of having to compete with other factory owners in order to keep the factory. If the owner can't keep expenses as low as they are in other factories, then the factory's produce will have to be sold at a higher price to cover the costs and maintain the same profit margin as the competition. Less profit = less investment in the future = less production = less revenue in the future = even less profit = a factory owner who's going to be penniless if he/she doesn't sell his/her factory = people without jobs. Need I say more?

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I mean seriously, let's be honest - it wouldn't work would it? Truthfully and totally the economic model sounds good, and maybe you can even argue it to where it sounds good - but we both know that it would never work - though I agree it would be nice if it could.

I think that it can work. I wouldn't be debating with you if I didn't.

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Menchise ]

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Sorry Menchise, IT WILL NEVER WORK!!

NEVER!!

It has been tried time immemorial, the pilgrims even tried it. They decided that everyones labor belonged to everyone else and that they would put everything in a central location and people would take what they needed from that. Guess what? They almost starved to death...

When they went back to the capitalist system, they were bountiful and everyone had what they needed. If there is no PERSONAL reward for labor or product manufactured, the system will fail, just as it always has.

This is just the way it works, your theory sounds great, but in practice it destroys the very people it purports to help...

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You're right Charles, OK, Silk, Soback, Menchise and everyone else, If you wanna keep this going, start another thread.

Let's get this one back on track!! War on Terrorism!!

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Hey you know... I have this fighter game... Jane's fighter anthology game... and I can ride any known plane (including, but not limited to, the b-52, b-1b lancer, b2, f3 tornado, f-14 tomcat, f-15 eagle legacy, f-16, f-18 hornet, f-22 raptor, x-29 FSW , x-31 (or 32?) astrovl, tons of migs, mirage...) over [edit : afganistan ] and drop bombs on enemy bases

Ten MK-82! Ten!

[ 10-13-2001: Message edited by: Epsilon 5 ]

[ 10-13-2001: Message edited by: Epsilon 5 ]

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From Jaguar's post in the "continuing the debate" thread.

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It calls on the United States to stop the bombing as quickly as possible

hopefully so

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and urges the government to work with international organizations

yes

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to bring those responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon to justice.

yes, immediate death.

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Councilwoman Linda Maio, who supported the measure, said the bombing of Afghanistan would only succeed in sowing "more hatred, confirming those who regard us as evil and nurturing yet another generation of recruits prepared to attack us at all cost."

Very true, they hate us anyway.

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