I need to think about this very carefully...

[Supreme Cmdr]

Folks,

Before the crap storm hits, I want you all to read this and be aware of my comtemplation of legal action against the Evil Avatar site, the site owner (Philip 'Evil Avatar' Hansen), and John 'DrCrypt' Brownlee (yes, I have all his real details too).

This will be the first time that I am doing this and I don't need to tell you all of the impending implications.

Nothing to do with Free Speech

Nothing to do with someone not liking me

Nothing to do with censorship

Its all about a site and its owner promoting, propagating and using their site for libel and other attrocious non gaming acts against developers. And I'm not the only one he does it to. Prior to this post, I had several conversations with some industry developer friends of mine. And while the general consensus was to just ignore him, the gist of it is that I have been ignoring this for too long.

In fact, to the extent that he banned me from posting there, after repeated complaints about his friend (see emails below), John Brownlee's actions. Of course he didn't want to go against his friend etc.

IIRC, the EA site is under PR ban by some publishers, including Sierra, for similar actions.

But thats a whole different and documented story. Search his site.

I know I'm going to get buried in flames, more abuse and the like. But unless I set an example (in addition to my impending actions against Bill Huffman and his ISP host), this is never going to stop. And a site that is supposed to cater to the gaming industry, promoting this farce, is just not happening. Its as simple as that.

Every one of his advertizers, his ISP and his host, are going to get a letter from my attorney. And until and unless I get a public apology and the libel ceases, I will do it.

Of course, he's probably going to laugh at me because he thinks I'm bluffing. My game has shipped. I have time. We'll see who is bluffing.

You should also know that Philip Hansen and I have a history going back to the early days of the Usenet BC3K 1.0 flame wars. Yes, he may have a site now, but he's still the same evil bastard he was back then.

That is all I have to say. Before I do anything, I'd like to read your comments on this matter. If you don't feel like publicly posting, send me a private message via email or the forum board.

The seriousness of one of his regulars talking about accusing me of being a child molester (someone send me the thread via email this morning), is indeed a very real and scary threat.

Here is the excerpt (in case EA goes and deletes it, even though he read it and posted several posts later) from this this thread (11 posts down).

quote:

---

is there any way for us to put him out of business without stalking him? like accuse him of child molestation?

---

ps:

These 9 threads are all saved locally. So EA can delete them all he wants. It won't change a thing.

Links removed. Not giving that prick any traffic. If you want them, send me a private message.

quote:

---

From: "Philip Hansen"

To:

, "Derek Smart"

Subject: Re: Phone Harassment

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:22:00 -0700

X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200

You too kids play nice or no cookie.

John: Derek Smart is an excellent individual if you give him a chance. Don't harass him in my forums or in any other places online and give him a chance and I think you will find that he can contribute a lot to any discussion that is allowed to stay on topic. Show him some respect and I think you will find that he will act in a way that is worthy of respect. Just lighten up a little and you might make a good friend.

Derek: You know better than to get dragged into every little internet flame war. Don't reply to people who try to draw you out with comments about Battlecruiser or old Usenet posts and just stay on-topic no matter what these people try to draw you into and I think you will find that pretty quickly they won't bother since you didn't bother to pay any attention to them. Not to mention that you will win more friends by NOT talking about your game and replying to trolls than you will by attacking them and letting discussions go off topic.

Both you guys take it easy. Gaming should be fun. I might seem like the last one to talk (Sierra... HaHa.) but, just let these things go and spend more time talking about games and gaming and less time CCing each other about who is the bigger jerk.

(Hey, if you didn't want a lecture, you shouldn't have CC'd me. )

-Philip

---

quote:

---

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:13:55 -0400

From: "John Brownlee"

Reply-To:

To: Derek Smart

Subject: Re: Phone Harassment

X-Mailer:

As far as I know, EA doesn't make any reservations of the ownership of posts on his forums. That makes it public domain. So, in answer to your question, yes, it is legal.

Anyway, the thread has been deleted now, the fight is over, what more do you want?

---

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[buckthesystem]

Sue their ass(ets) off SC! It's a pity you have to waste your (and mp patch coding ) time on libellious trash like that

[Supreme Cmdr]

And I forgot to add that EA is not even in my PR list. So, I don't WHY they continue to post news bits about my games - if not to continue this farce.

[Guest $iLk]

Sent you a PM SC.

[Supreme Cmdr]

Yes, got it and replied. Thanks

I just got off the phone with both of my attorneys and they say that I should just file a complaint and not even send them a warning. But they cautioned that it could cause allienation between myself and other gaming sites, and whether I want to take the risk.

So, I've sent private emails to my friends in the media and will be watching to see what they have to say.

[Soback]

If you have other people like game developers who would also file complaints with you and take this whole thing to the end then plan it out, and then do it. But is it really worth the trouble? If they feel like raising hell on their site and gussip about things then be it. If someone goes on their site and finds some unfavorable discussions about you, believes everything and assumes that it's all true without checking out this forums and this comunity then it's GREAT, we don't need people here who don't even bother to form their own opinions and make their own decissions. Sites like that act like a filter for you. Filter out the bad and keep them there yapping, while those who bother to go deeper come here and stay. So in my opinion if it takes a lot of resources going after this then don't bother doing it alone, not worth it. But it's your decission in the end.

[Supreme Cmdr]

Good point. And thats basically the kind of response I've been getting from others.

But the fact remains, if I don't do something (now may not be the time, since I have to focus these first few weeks on the game's release), its going to continue. And I really do need to set an example.

Anyway, I am going to do something legal about it.

[TEschenbach]

I don't know if that's such a good idea. In the first place, you're giving the basher bandwagon more ammunition to continue the whole flame war farce. I think it's been proven that they will bash you no matter what, and I doubt very much that it will ever stop, no matter what you do. That EA thread is like the VE threads... except for the one comment about child molestation, which was totally uncalled for. I really don't see legal action accomplishing anything other than justifying the detractors negative opinions, and causing more resentment towards you.

We need to focus on the positives. The game is out, and except for some annoying bugs, people are playing it and are generating some good buzz. More people may be enticed to play once the print reviews show up. I say channel all determination into squashing bugs and making BCM multiplayer the damn best space-sim multiplayer EVER. This way, people sitting on the fence waiting to buy BCM will look at the negative crap, but see far more positive things, which means more fans and more support.

But if you do take action, you have to find others that are willing to PUBLICLY put their stamp of approval on it; i.e. known names in the dev community. John Romero or George Broussard maybe? This way you are not singled out as the only 'villain'.

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Camaro76 ]

[Guest [PCA]Pheonix]

What a total Farce..that EA thread that is! I know I'm a n00B but I can see when someones deliberately winding people up, and that looks like it for me. They should grow up and get a life!

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Camaro76:

I don't know if that's such a good idea. In the first place, you're giving the basher bandwagon more ammunition to continue the whole flame war farce. I think it's been proven that they will bash you no matter what, and I doubt very much that it will ever stop, no matter what you do. That EA thread is like the VE threads... except for the one comment about child molestation, which was totally uncalled for. I really don't see legal action accomplishing anything other than justifying the detractors negative opinions, and causing more resentment towards you.

We need to focus on the positives. The game is out, and except for some annoying bugs, people are playing it and are generating some good buzz. More people may be enticed to play once the print reviews show up. I say channel all determination into squashing bugs and making BCM multiplayer the damn best space-sim multiplayer EVER. This way, people sitting on the fence waiting to buy BCM will look at the negative crap, but see far more positive things, which means more fans and more support.

---

Agree 100%

Did you see this? (5th post from top) I mean, think about that, and the above for a minute. This goes beyond a piss take. I mean, I take Shirley aka Wilf aka Fabio's crap (VE forum's resident idiot) without so much as a second glance. Because its just that. Crap. But you don't see VE (or any other forum) promoting and/or encouraging such attacks.

well if you dare have problems with the patch, he accuses you of piracy after being the usual belligerent *******. why hasn't natural selection taken care of this bastard yet?

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[Fendi]

Normally I would say that tha best revenge tactic is to show how successful you are. But in this case where you are (maybe) going to be framed for molesting children is a different matter all together. That is basically not on and if not put in check WILL ruin your reputation even though you did not do it. If I were you I'd take it seriously. It's basically a "guilty until proven innocent" case if the prick goes through with his plan. Nip it while it's still in the bud SC and don't wait any longer to take legal action. That's my 0.02 cents anyway.

[Hunted]

okay maybe i'm a stupid jarhead, but i'm really confused on whats goign on hera, can somebody give me a conicse short saying of whats going on, all i understand after reading the post several times, wa the guys were sladnering sc, am i right, explain please

[Advil]

I don't know if you've ever listened to Art Bell on the radio or not, but he kinda went through a couple situations like this. He's a public figure that tends to have weird people in contact with him.

Well, some paper (I believe it was Jamaican?) Printed this false email supposedly from him HATING them as a race, and all these things he never said. The end result was a large number of very serious death threats. He took legal action against the paper and eventally got a retraction printed.

I think your situation is similar in the following way: If you think that you have taken any provable personal damage, or have had your reputation permanently damaged by these people from outright lies, then you have a case. But the damage has to be serious enough to make legal action worthwile. You have to have a reason the think that a ruling in your favor would somehow aid your position with the public. If yes then go for it. If not then what's the point?

[Supreme Cmdr]

Or what about the 12th post from this thread?

Can you even list how many libelous claims are in that post? And thats from one of EA's friends.

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Advil:

I don't know if you've ever listened to Art Bell on the radio or not, but he kinda went through a couple situations like this. He's a public figure that tends to have weird people in contact with him.

Well, some paper (I believe it was Jamaican?) Printed this false email supposedly from him HATING them as a race, and all these things he never said. The end result was a large number of very serious death threats. He took legal action against the paper and eventally got a retraction printed.

I think your situation is similar in the following way: If you think that you have taken any provable personal damage, or have had your reputation permanently damaged by these people from outright lies, then you have a case. But the damage has to be serious enough to make legal action worthwile. You have to have a reason the think that a ruling in your favor would somehow aid your position with the public. If yes then go for it. If not then what's the point?

---

Precisely.

Before, I didn't have the time, resources, not the inclination to do anything. For one thing, I spent enough money getting Bill Huffman's site shutdown and he just popped up elsewhere. And we came to the conclusion that unless I actually sue him and go the distance, thereby setting a precedence, it won't stop. That of course meant more money than I was willing to throw at the problem. At the time. That [money] is no longer the issue, nor is time for that matter. Which is why, as I've said before, that the first time the news breaks, it will come as a complete shock. And I know for a fact that I'll win. There is simply no ifs ands or buts about it. None whatsoever.

Heck, I've had this f*cking idiot, stalk me for crissakes. In real life. It took cops going to his house, to solve that. But he's still at it, which is why, he won't see this either.

I've already given my attorneys, everything short of a blank cheque. At the moment, I'm just gauging and soliciting feedback from you lot, as well as other developers and press (I've received lots of emails about this already - some mixed) so that nobody gets the wrong impression as to what I am aiming to achieve.

Simply put. I'VE HAD IT!

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[TEschenbach]

I guess I'm thinking of the forums in terms of a radio show... where once in a while you get an extreme 'opinion' from some crackpot that makes you go "Who the hell was that wacko?". In most cases the radio host may bleep out the person, but it depends on the show.

I can see your viewpoint SC, because the 'moderator' didn't step in with some sort of reprimand/post removal... but it's entirely possible they didn't take post #5 seriously (from looking at posts 11 and 12). I'd have to take a look at more posts from the same person to really make an assessment.

And judging from EA's Forum FAQ:

-----

Anything relevant to the forum you are posting it in.

Try not to post information that is misleading or wrong.

Avoid offensive language or your message will be removed.

No spamming is allowed.

We reserve the right to edit any post.

-----

It looks like they are not seriously concerned with moderating anything, period (posts 1 and 13). Which brings me back to my opinion that legal action won't change anything, except maybe to force EA to take a harder line with outrageous viewpoints like post #5.

I'm not trying to defend these people, mind you... this is a totally serious situation. I'm saying that it all would likely end up as a wild goose chase, and the time/money would be better spent elsewhere.

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Camaro76:

I guess I'm thinking of the forums in terms of a radio show... where once in a while you get an extreme 'opinion' from some crackpot that makes you go "Who the hell was that wacko?". In most cases the radio host may bleep out the person, but it depends on the show.

I can see your viewpoint SC, because the 'moderator' didn't step in with some sort of reprimand/post removal... but it's entirely possible they didn't take post #5 seriously (from looking at posts 11 and 12). I'd have to take a look at more posts from the same person to really make an assessment.

And judging from EA's Forum FAQ:

-----

Anything relevant to the forum you are posting it in.

Try not to post information that is misleading or wrong.

Avoid offensive language or your message will be removed.

No spamming is allowed.

We reserve the right to edit any post.

-----

It looks like they are not seriously concerned with moderating anything, period (posts 1 and 13). Which brings me back to my opinion that legal action won't change anything, except maybe to force EA to take a harder line with outrageous viewpoints like post #5.

I'm not trying to defend these people, mind you... this is a totally serious situation. I'm saying that it all would likely end up as a wild goose chase, and the time/money would be better spent elsewhere.

---

Understood. Here, try this.

Post to one of the threads above, citing the FAQ. And see the response you get. Just try it.

[Guest]

OK, I see where Camaro76 is coming from, but at the same time, these guys are starting to get a little desperate it looks like. I mean BCM is out, the first patch to fix the small bugs that were indeed still in there, (SORRY SC ) is already out. People are LOVING the game.

You r detractors are in trouble, thier credibility has just been shot out the window, and when MP comes out, they're toast.

In this situation I think the best defense is a good offense. Go after them SC,if you're ready willing and able, go after the little cowards. They post a bunch of crap on forums, but if you go after them PERSONALLY, maybe they will realize that they are indeed RESPONSIBLE for what they say on those forums, and you just might get a pretty penniy out these F%^&%ers as well!!

I say go for it, if you are willing to cough up the dough, and other developers and media are willing to back you, DO IT!!!

[TEschenbach]

Ok SC, I took you up on your... uh... challenge.

http://www.evilavatar.com/redirected.asp?f...vatar.com/EA/Ne ws/M34770/

I'm wondering how much of this thread here at 3000ad they will read before the knee-jerk reaction comes, if they notice at all.

At any rate, it's good of you to gather opinions before taking action - thanks for hearing us out. No matter what you decide, good luck!

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Camaro76 ]

[Gallion]

quote:

---

Every one of

his advertizers, his ISP and his host,

are going to get a letter from my attorney. And until and unless I get a public apology and the libel ceases, I will do it.

------------

I just got off the phone with both of my attorneys and they say that I should just

file a complaint and not even send them a warning.

...

---

That's it SC, hit the bugger with a double whammy. Hit were it hurts from two fronts - the legal and the financial

quote:

---

But they cautioned that it could cause

allienation between myself and other gaming sites

, and whether I want to take the risk.

---

I wouldn't worry about this to much. The only detrimental thing that I can see coming out of this is that now those sites would be held accountable for the conduct of their forums IMO.

As far as risk goes, it is risky enough just waking up in the morning

Until some visible action is taken, nothing will ever reduce the libel and slander that permeates most forums on the net these days.

TTFN

[aramike]

I agree with Gallion 100% on this, boss. But then again, you already know that...

[Soback]

SC, whatever you do, don't spend too much money on those idiots. I want you to leave enough left over to develop more games and to enjoy life rather then spend the resources educating and teaching lessons to some retards.

[TEschenbach]

After doing a little digging on the 'net, I've found some interesting sites like these:

http://law.about.com/library/weekly/aa051198.htm

http://www.wave.net/immigration/lawyer/libel.html

http://www.ssrn.com/update/lsn/cyberspace/csl%5Flessons.html

This last is a good one... examine closely lessons 32-39.

[Supreme Cmdr]

Excellent resources. We are aware of the first two. Gonna read #3 later. Thanks!!

btw, I heard back from the EA site owners. More on this later once I hear back from my attorneys. Basically, I don't EA is going to pull a stunt like that again any time soon. And I've requested that any and all offensive, threating and libelous posts be deleted and a formal apology posted.

We'll see. Naturally, Phil 'Evil Avatar' Hansen sent email to his bosses that he didn't know what I was yammering about. Here is what he said. Can you believe this?

quote:

---

From: Philip Hansen

To: Williams, Rick

Sent: 11/23/01 2:33 PM

Subject: Fw: OK, I've had it.

Rick,

I really don't know what Derek is all up in arms about. I haven't said anything about him and as far as I know neither has anyone from my

staff.

He hasn't asked us to remove any specific messages or made any other specific threats, he is just out there on the edge ranting like a loon

again.

Do you want to reply to him at all?

---

I'm not going to post Rick's email since I have no beef with him and his tone clearly indicates that he wants the matter resolved (as do I) and without incident.

Phil just got caught with his pants down, especially in light of the posts and him posting AFTER said posts - PLUS - he claims he didn't know what I was talking about.

Not to mention that I have several emails from me to him complaining about Drcrypt's threats, harrassment and libelous posts.

If Rick doesn't resolve this asap, you'll be reading all about it, including all the emails, posts *and* responses from developers who gave me their permission to post their comments, in a future soapbox update.

[Nesborn]

After reading through some of those posts on that site, all I have to say is ... Good grief. What is wrong with those people? It's like they have a little religion built up, upon which they've named you their own personal devil. Talk about some people having way too much time on their hands.