Jump to content

Pen&Paper Games vs. Computer Games


JaxFox
 Share

Recommended Posts

BCM, RtCW, Startopia, UT, Quake3, EQ, AC, DAOC...and countless others we all know at least one of these titles.

Dungeons and Dragons, Vampire, Earthdawn, Chill, Shadow Run, Cyberpunk 2020, Deadlands, Warhammer 40K and Starfire.

Very few know these titles. The second list is a genre that is sadly, slowly fadeing, giving way to the new age of computer and console games. Can the old pen and paper game, which involved groups of friends getting together with massive amounts of soda, pizza and chips, survive against graphics and ease of use?

A good table top game can sometimes take several hours to prepare, and to play, let alone getting your friends schedule to match yours and everyone elses. Where as a computer or console game you hit a switch and bang! You have a game going that you can play when ever the time is convient for you, need some people to play with, once again hit a button and you have access to thousands of players.

So my question is to you, can the tradition of table top live along side the new age of digital games? I personally think it can, sometimes just getting together with friends and using my imagination, pretending to be a great warrior traveling the world looking for adventure can be far more relaxing then computer games at times.

So what do you think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the future lies in melding the two. Consider the recent release of Vampire: the Masquerade as a FPS-style game. One of the multiplayer options had an RPG mode whereby players could get together via TCP or LAN and model those same pen+paper RPGs. Time saving in that the computer handled calculations, etc., although perhaps dehumanising the RPG process.

I can see this kind of MP option becoming more common with the current resurgence of the RPG game in an era where multiplayer is almost a necessity. (are you listening, Derek? *evil grin*)

-GD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree. My last few D&D sessions still had those six kinds of dice, (challege: who knows all six of them?) but with a laptop (and some $20 software) there to aid the more complex functions. Unfortunately, me and my friends have become too busy for much of that anymore, so lately, my computer usage as went up significantly. In fact, the only live games I play these days is strategy night at Wizards of the Coast. Those once-a-week games of Risk, some fancy Risk variation, or a few rounds of Starfleet Battles sure were fun. I say were because I'm not allowed to have a car on campus, so I lack the mobility required to go every week, even though Arundel Mills (mall) is only 20 or so miles away.

But I digress. The future is in online games, but then again, the occasional tabletop game where you're actually in the same room with the other players can be refreshing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My 0.02 cents

Starting out with tabletop gaming was one heck of a joyride, the days that you spend planning a campaign or scenario, getting frustrated that your players refused to follow your script and finding new and utterly fantastic ways of countering your scripted events and having to use impromptu data that is not in the script. Sounds just like what Derek does, doesn't it?

Anyway, those were the games were the discipline of reading everything in the manual was ingrained and necessary. I still remember all those nights pouring over the AD&D Player's Handbook and Monsters File trying to create the perfect scenario and trying to find any information to outwit my players.

I believe that these current trend of playing computer games lacks the discipline learned from tabletop games, its way too easy by far.

I say bring back the tabletop games like Battletech, Robotech and many others that have fallen aside throughout the years.

BTW Magic: The Gathering does not count as a tabletop game as far as I'm concerned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I doubt tabletop gaming will ever go away. Every time I poke my head into the local game store it's still filled with smelly, unkempt, 14-year-old losers arguing endlessly over some miniscule rule interpretation and bragging about their crappy Warhammer 40k armies that look like they were painted by preschoolers.

And that brings up the main reason I don't do much table top gaming anymore. I simply can't stand to be around the average gamer. For one thing, they smell. It's a rare treat indeed to find a gaming shop where there aren't at least 3 regulars who are always there who haven't quite mastered the art of bathing.

Another problem is that these sad, sick human beings have nothing better to do with their miserable lives than to spend months pouring over the rules trying to find that elusive unbeatable combination of abilities and equipment which will render their special character{s} invincible. If you're the type of person who just likes to play games and have a good time, don't go anywhere near these people. If you should challenge the validity of their characters, or even just suggest that they're overlooking the spirit of the rules, you'll likely get yourself embroiled in a two hour arguement.

That said, if you have a good group of friends with whom you can get together, drink some beer, and have fun playing some games, then consider yourself lucky. I really miss those days when I did such things, but these days everyone in my group has scattered to the four winds or is just too busy to have time for such things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shadowrun IMO, is the best PnP game I played that would b great if made into a PC game. I played the SNES and Sega Genesis versions back in the day and rumour has it that Microsoft is developing a PC Shadowrun game when it bought FASA a while back. Any other Shadowrun fans here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pen and Paper games will never die. I have been playing off and on for over 20 years since, I was 12,and they have the one element that computers dont have right now, even with MP, real first person human interaction using what is stil the most powerful tool available, your imagination.

D&D, I still have all of my books the and all of the rules from the orginal edition on, Lead figures, modules and more sets of dice than I can imagine.

I still play with my buddies but we have trouble getting together with all of us having children and pretty intensive work situation. We might now be programmers, doctors and lawyers, labourers, IT consultants etc. but when we pull up the chairs and warmup the dice we are still able to slip into those comfortable characters we have known for 20 years and after a shitty week at work, there is no substitute for that and I am not sure there ever will be.

Computer games provide a similar very satisfying escape but you will always need a computer and that is both their draw and their downfall. It will always miss a little bit of that human element. Anyone can play a RP pen and paper game, only those with computers can play computer games.

Someday I am sure this will change but by then my biggest concern will be finding my teeth in the morning.

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Outlaw:

Shadowrun IMO, is the best PnP game I played that would b great if made into a PC game. I played the SNES and Sega Genesis versions back in the day and rumour has it that Microsoft is developing a PC Shadowrun game when it bought FASA a while back. Any other Shadowrun fans here?

I played Shadowrun for a few years. The one i played was DnD back about 8 years ago... Then was Robotech (I WANT A VALKERIE!), Shadowrun, and the last one I played which I still have, is Heroes Umlimited. I still have all my dice and everything... Somewhere... Was fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Myself and a few friends regularly meet up twice a week for a game of D&D. when one of the campaigns finishes we will then switch to a Shadowrun game.

I don't believe the table top games will ever die actually the annual meet up and roleplay session over here (Gaelcon) is getting bigger every year I have fond memories of getting my A** kicked in a 4hour game of Warhammer 40K on the sunday. In fact there are about 6 "Cons" every year over here and they are permanently packed out and always great fun :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My opinion..... Pen and Paper games require much more thought and creativity than most computer games (with the exception of the Battlecruiser games ).

With that in mind, I feel that the old pen and paper genre will fall more to the wayside as children grow up in an electronic era. I mean, who wants to imagine a forest full of elves, or a vast ocean of space filled with countless stars and possibilities if you can see a graphical representation of them.

I love both, and being a writer, I can actually get more out of either than, say, my children, because the I have helped bring them up in the video age.

I, hate to admit this, but I think it is only a matter of time until the pen and paper genre becomes only a small footnote in gaming history much to my personal chagrin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Schmendrick:

I doubt tabletop gaming will ever go away. Every time I poke my head into the local game store it's still filled with smelly, unkempt, 14-year-old losers arguing endlessly over some miniscule rule interpretation and bragging about their crappy Warhammer 40k armies that look like they were painted by preschoolers.

And that brings up the main reason I don't do much table top gaming anymore. I simply can't stand to be around the average gamer. For one thing, they smell. It's a rare treat indeed to find a gaming shop where there aren't at least 3 regulars who are
always
there who haven't quite mastered the art of bathing.

Another problem is that these sad, sick human beings have nothing better to do with their miserable lives than to spend months pouring over the rules trying to find that elusive unbeatable combination of abilities and equipment which will render their special character{s} invincible. If you're the type of person who just likes to play games and have a good time, don't go anywhere near these people. If you should challenge the validity of their characters, or even just suggest that they're overlooking the spirit of the rules, you'll likely get yourself embroiled in a two hour arguement.

That said, if you have a good group of friends with whom you can get together, drink some beer, and have fun playing some games, then consider yourself lucky. I really miss those days when I did such things, but these days everyone in my group has scattered to the four winds or is just too busy to have time for such things.

I'm not interested in starting an argument over this, but I think your description of the "average" gamer is a bit harsh. First of all, it's pretty hard to stereotype the whole lot of gamers. Most I've met just have too many quirks to fall under any umbrella description (although "geek" seems to apply to most of them, myself included ). On the other hand, most younger gamers (which seems to be what you're describing, as opposed to the "average gamer") are probably pretty easily classifed as munchkins, power gamers, and what have you - it's not there fault, and the few that stick with the hobby as they mature will probably end up as fairly good roleplayers. Anyway, I highly suggest that you stop by a convention if you ever find yourself near one. They're loads of fun, especially if you lighten up a bit.

As for the hobby of pencil and paper rpgs going away - I'd doubt it. I still love them more than any computer game I've ever played. I've been playing computer games since the late eighties, and I've yet to find one that could hold my interest for more than a year or two (with the exception of maybe X-Com, which I still go back and play every now and then) of on and off playing. On the other hand, I've been playing RPGs for about 13 years now. Every now and then I DM/GM a steady campaign for at least a year of weekly sessions - and as soon as I'm done I can't wait to get another one going.

The "human interaction" of multiplayer games just can't compare to the face to face fun of paper and pencil rpgs. And, to be totally honest, even the most annoying immature groups I've played with have been a helluva lot of fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Simparadox:

I'm not interested in starting an argument over this, but I think your description of the "average" gamer is a bit harsh. First of all, it's pretty hard to stereotype the whole lot of gamers. Most I've met just have too many quirks to fall under any umbrella description (although "geek" seems to apply to most of them, myself included ). On the other hand, most younger gamers (which seems to be what you're describing, as opposed to the "average gamer") are probably pretty easily classifed as munchkins, power gamers, and what have you - it's not there fault, and the few that stick with the hobby as they mature will probably end up as fairly good roleplayers. Anyway, I highly suggest that you stop by a convention if you ever find yourself near one. They're loads of fun, especially if you lighten up a bit.

Actually the only problem is that you seem to be taking me far more seriously than I take myself

I've been to lots of conventions. And you have to admit that there's a significan proportion of people there that are just plain slobs. I often find myself wanting some of that minty smelling cream that coroners smear on their upper lips to mask the stench.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Schmendrick:

I've been to lots of conventions. And you have to admit that there's a significan proportion of people there that are just plain slobs. I often find myself wanting some of that minty smelling cream that coroners smear on their upper lips to mask the stench.

Thankfully people under that heading are few, and the exception not the rule.

quote:

Originally posted by Simparadox:

On the other hand, most younger gamers (which seems to be what you're describing, as opposed to the "average gamer") are probably pretty easily classifed as munchkins, power gamers.

There does seem to be alot of power gamers out and about right now. I agree it's not really not there fault since most do not have a experienced gamer to guide them in the ways of good roleplaying

Of course games like Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition does not help matters, heh give me 2nd edition any day

Who remembers what THAC0 stands for and how is it calculated?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by JaxFox:

There does seem to be alot of power gamers out and about right now. I agree it's not really not there fault since most do not have a experienced gamer to guide them in the ways of good roleplaying

Of course games like Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition does not help matters, heh give me 2nd edition any day

Who remembers what THAC0 stands for and how is it calculated?

Ahh... must... resist... oh, god... screw it, gotta say it: I love AD&D 2nd Edition. I played 1st Edition. But how can you possibly say that the third edition rules are more Munchkin-esque than earlier editions? They have a few loopholes, but the system itself is definetly less focused on combat and power gaming. Ah, well. No biggie, D&D isn't even my preferred system. I miss Alternity (Dark*Matter has to be my favorite rpg setting of all time) .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well i've tried to resist the urge to rant about RPG systems but I just cant.

I absolutely despise 90% of the RPG systems out there. Most notably AD&D. The main problem with them is the basic hit point system. It just doesn't make sense. I don't care how big and bad you think you are, if I smack you with a 5 foot slab of sharpened steel, your ass is going down.

Now the standard rebuttal to this is that hit points are just an abstraction reflecting both the health of the character and that characters ability to avoid damage. But this breaks down when you apply it to damage received from non-combat related happenings, e.g. A boulder rolling down a hallway squashing anybody in it's path. The level 1 character is nothing but a greasy smear on said boulder. The level 30 character however (apparently due to his extensive experience in boulder collision) is merely scratched. He dusts himself off and proceeds to single handedly beat the hell of 3 or 4 dozen orcs.

(Now I'll really get off topic )

Now I'm an easy going guy. I can cope with most of these peculiarities with little or no complaint when it comes to pen and paper RPGs. After all you have to reduce things down to something that's easilly managable and doesn't require so much dice rolling that a 2 minute encounter takes 3 hours of cross referencing tables and such. But what really irks me is that computer RPGs still use the same damn simplistic systems.

I remember playing old CRPGs like The Bards Tale and Wizardry and thinking to myself "Wow, this is cool, but imagine what they'll be able to do 5 or 10 years from now!". The really disappointing thing is that they aren't doing anything now than they were back then. We've all got computers that can process an absolutely obscene amount of data in the blink of an eye, and all that games use it for is making prettier pictures. Nearly every CRPG out there still uses the same lame roll to hit, roll to damage, subtract damage from hit points, rinse, repeat combat system developed 30ish years ago so that drunken college students wouldn't get confused by having too many numbers written on their character sheets.

And these dolts call themselves game designers. They seem to have all the creativity of a mound of head cheese. And amazingly enough games like Diablo II get hordes of screaming fans marveling at how cool the character developement system is. Hell, there isn't anything done in Diablo II that couldn't have been done on a Commodore 64 witht the only obvious exception being that the graphics would have been worse.

Oh well. I'll stop new before I really start annoying everyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Schmendrick:

Well i've tried to resist the urge to rant about RPG systems but I just cant.

I absolutely despise 90% of the RPG systems out there. Most notably AD&D. The main problem with them is the basic hit point system. It just doesn't make sense. I don't care how big and bad you think you are, if I smack you with a 5 foot slab of sharpened steel, your ass is going down.

Now the standard rebuttal to this is that hit points are just an abstraction reflecting both the health of the character and that characters ability to avoid damage. But this breaks down when you apply it to damage received from non-combat related happenings, e.g. A boulder rolling down a hallway squashing anybody in it's path. The level 1 character is nothing but a greasy smear on said boulder. The level 30 character however (apparently due to his extensive experience in boulder collision) is merely scratched. He dusts himself off and proceeds to single handedly beat the hell of 3 or 4 dozen orcs.

That much I can agree with you on. Hit points are kind of odd - but they fit the "feel" of D&D. It's not a realistic game. Characters get smacked around like crazy, do insane heroic things, and still come out on top. That's what makes the game fun. Don't look down at hit points across the board, though. Check out Alternity for an example of how they can be used in a fairly gritty, realistic game.

One of my favorite systems was the D6/Original Star Wars RPG system. I loved the way everything was done in it, especially combat. The damage system was great. Your character had an endurance which could only be improved through extensive training (ie, loads of character points) and you rolled that against damage to determine how badly you were injured. No skill points were used, instead you just rolled to find out the actual EFFECT of the damage (stunned, wounded, severely wounded, incapacitated, etc. - an extremely advanced character could easily be killed with a single hit).

Also, sorry about jumping at you in my last post. It just pisses me off to some degree when gamers look down on other gamers.

quote:

I remember playing old CRPGs like The Bards Tale and Wizardry and thinking to myself "Wow, this is cool, but imagine what they'll be able to do 5 or 10 years from now!". The really disappointing thing is that they aren't doing anything now than they were back then. We've all got computers that can process an absolutely obscene amount of data in the blink of an eye, and all that games use it for is making prettier pictures. Nearly every CRPG out there still uses the same lame roll to hit, roll to damage, subtract damage from hit points, rinse, repeat combat system developed 30ish years ago so that drunken college students wouldn't get confused by having too many numbers written on their character sheets.

Personally, I think Pencil & Paper RPGs just don't belong on computers or console systems period. PnP RPGs are great to play around a table with friends when you're actually rolling the dice, consuming insane amounts of junk food, and actually interacting... but when you're playing a computer game the game should try to simulate reality (or some fictional version of it in lane with the game's settings) as closely as possible. There's no reason for hit points when you can model the actual effects of a sword blow on a character without needing the player to look up loads of charts and such. The problem with CRPGs is that they try to capture that "tabletop feel" and they just can't do it.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Simparadox ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ahhhh..Some of my fondest gaming memories are from playing Traveller.....It's hard to believe that's been 20 years ago...lol But nothing compares with those weekend gaming marathons when I was in the Military.Drinking beer, eating pizza and playing Twilight 2000.Those were the days....can't seem to find a group these days,at least not one that wants to role play instead of pencil-whipping their characters to perfection.

And who here as ever played "Morrow Project"?

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Stormshadow ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Stormshadow:

Ahhhh..Some of my fondest gaming memories are from playing Traveller.....It's hard to believe that's been 20 years ago...lol But nothing compares with those weekend gaming marathons when I was in the Military.Drinking beer, eating pizza and playing Twilight 2000.Those were the days....can't seem to find a group these days,at least not one that wants to role play instead of pencil-whipping their characters to perfection.

And who here as ever played "Morrow Project"?

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Stormshadow ]

I had a good time with Twilight 2000 too. It was one of the few times I've ever played with a group of people who actually had all their sh*t together and didn't waste half the night trying to find dice, character sheets, cheetos, etc. The main thing I didn't like about Twilight 2000/Traveler was the odd fact that my gun was more likely to jam the farther away my target was. Everyone thought I was the cursed because I honestly never managed to fire off a full burst without jamming.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Schmendrick ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WELLL. ya know. The thing is. If the rule makes sense, use it. If it didn't, We didn't. It's hard to convince a bunch of Infantry grunts that their TW2000 M-16's were jamming,when their REAL M-16's didn't behave in a similar fashion. That's the mark of a good GM, knowing which rules to use,which are BS and which not to back down on. The best GM's I've ever gamed with always used the gaming mechanics as just a way to structure the Story.they never let game mechanics ruin the roleplaying.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Stormshadow ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Simparadox:

I miss Alternity (Dark*Matter has to be my favorite rpg setting of all time) .

So do I, I bought Alternity with Dark Matter when it first came out. I still have yet to forgive WoTC for canceling it.

Anybody ever have problems with the dreaded two word?

rule's lawyer.

These guys would drive me nuts. Of course it all depends on how you would handle them. Me, I would just close the book and hand it to them and tell them they can now run the game. Naturally the rest of the players would be ready to lynch the poor SOB that decide to quote the rules to the GM/DM.

Golden rule, the GM/DM is God of that game. And most GM/DM have no regret's on rolling every dice they own to smite the fool who dare oppose them. *sigh* those where the good days

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by JaxFox:

So do I, I bought Alternity with Dark Matter when it first came out. I still have yet to forgive WoTC for canceling it.

Anybody ever have problems with the dreaded two word?

rule's lawyer.

These guys would drive me nuts. Of course it all depends on how you would handle them. Me, I would just close the book and hand it to them and tell them they can now run the game. Naturally the rest of the players would be ready to lynch the poor SOB that decide to quote the rules to the GM/DM.

Golden rule, the GM/DM is God of that game. And most GM/DM have no regret's on rolling every dice they own to smite the fool who dare oppose them. *sigh* those where the good days

For the past two years I've been in a bit of an rpg dry spell. Seeing as how I'm the only person in my little clique who went to college in-state and that most of the other people at my college are stuck-up rich kids who wouldn't give RPGs the time of day... well, I've been stuck playing D&D 3E and occasionally Alternity with either one (yes, that's right, single player games... I was that starved for playing an rpg ) two gamers that I actually know in the area. And both of them have to be the biggest rules lawyers I've ever seen in my life.

What makes it even worse is that both of them are fun to play with and good roleplayers, but when it comes to little rules issues they fly off the deep end. It's like neither of them understand the concept of skipping cumbersome or out of place rules to advance the story. They're at least tolerable, though. Back in high school I played with a group so obsessed with rules they would stop the game and demand to see whatever monster compendium I happened to be using (usually the Monstrous Manual, since this was back in the 2nd ed. days) to make sure I wasn't stacking the deck against them or giving them less experience than they deserved.

I'm just working at hunting down a group of players for either a serious D&D 3rd Edition, Alternity, or Vampire game right now... and I swear if I get even one rules lawyer I won't hesitate to strike him down with a "Bolt of the Infinite Wrath of the GM" .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really like the damage system in Shadowrun no hit points in sight instead players body attribute(which does not change without some serious training) against a damage rating that is only modified by armour.

I also thought the Star Wars system was very good but none of the guys I rp with ever want to play it they say it never lives up to the films(go figure) granted I've never GM'd a Star Wars game with them and I'd love to give it a go(all my games are alway way over the top with mad twisting plot lines and greatly exagerated combat(In shadowrun I have started matrixing the combat scenes it seems to fit very well))

RPG's rock so do computers an I loose way to much time to both(so my wife says anyway now that BCM has arrived the divorce papers arrived a few days latter)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...