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Switzerland votes to join the UN


Põdi
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quote:

As a source of funding and development, but to have any kind of influence in the council? Wont happen.

You think the corporations are gonna fund the UN without something in return? By definition, won't happen. The discussion is about receiving funds from multinationals in exchange for a seat in the General Assembly. Considering that a large number of these corporations' profits exceed the GDP of most member states I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen.

quote:

WHY is US funding some organization (and that's what it exactly is and should stay - not try to become some governing force) that is trying to inforce it's opinions upon US?

That's probably the most important question in this thread, especially if you believe that the UN is aiming for one world government.

I think there are three reasons:

1. As Tac previously mentioned, the UN is a convenient means for the USA to tell other states what to do.

2. The USA can violate international laws with impunity due to the extensive funding that it provides to the UN, while at the same time the USA can demand that other members be punished for violating the same laws.

3. Some very powerful elements within the USA agree with the opinions that the UN are trying to impose.

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Private funding would in return, receive their own benefits. Economical benefits. Just like any other trade deal. But political power? That wont happen. These corporations may use their financial status to influence the countries they are based in or plan to be based in (as they do right now anyway). But seats in the council? Nope nope.

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quote:

Originally posted by Paddy Gregory:

Jesus, I go down to Lugano for a couple of days, and what was a tongue-in cheek post becomes a full-blown political debate!

Now, THAT'S what I call progress.


Hi, how was the weather in Lugano? Btw, I posted the same thing on an other forum and it turned into a discussion about how the "tool" referendum is usually being abused by gov'ts.

It seems there are strong feelings against the UN on this board. Just for discussion's sake I'd like to ask all those who are against the UN becoming a world gov't, if they would agree to a world gov't framed like the US gov't (and constitution) with the nations being "states"?

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HELL NO! the US is too corrupt, and it can happen real fast on a world level

if man wasnt so greedy, communisum could have worked how it was orignally written

[ 03-10-2002, 19:29: Message edited by: Enigma ]

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Hi, how was the weather in Lugano? Btw, I posted the same thing on an other forum and it turned into a discussion about how the "tool" referendum is usually being abused by gov'ts.

Weather started off poor but got better the last day I was there .

I was discussing this very issue with some people while was there, which is when I go the 'double majority' idea explained to me. Forgive me if I simplify this somewhat, but is it true that a single vote in Canton Schaffausen, for example, counts 33x that of a vote in Canton Bern? For me, this os not a true referendum; ie one man (or woman), one vote. I was told that this is to preserve the 'local' attitudes to major issues, regardless of how the majority vote goes. He said it was to prevent the majority vote always winning. Isn't that the point of a referendum in the first place? Put the vote to the people and let the majority decide? I knew Switzerland was democracy gone mad, but this is ridiculous. Basically, you're letting a minority of people determine the result of a national vote. I'm confused.

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quote:

Originally posted by Paddy Gregory:

Basically, you're letting a minority of people determine the result of a national vote.

thats the way it works now in the US. about 50% of the population is of voteing age, and only about 50% of that even registers and votes. so the US is run by about 25% of the populace. besides the few always seem to control the many

quote:

Originally posted by Menchise:

quote:

if man wasnt so greedy, communisum could have worked how it was orignally written

It has never been tried the way it was originally written.


exactly my point, cant even do the right things when they are done for us.
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OK, I kinda tried to stay away from this thread, but I was bored this morning and ended up here anyway..go figure.

I'm going to post some links. In these links are info that I would like your various inputs on. Some of the info on these links I know to be true,either through personal experience or observations. Some I BELIEVE to be true although I don't have any real proof.....and some I'm unsure about.

I have never had the opportunity to discuss this topic with such a wide group of knowledgable and intelligent people from many different countries and political viewpoints, So ,Your thoughts on these subjects are most welcome.

Silent Weapons

BB,CFR,&TC

BB

[ 03-11-2002, 09:06: Message edited by: Stormshadow ]

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Regarding the 'Silent Weapons' document (I haven't read all of it): Although I don't believe that it is really a top secret document, I do believe that oligarchic plutocrat movements exist and could eventually become capable of executing their goal. However, their system is seriously flawed for two reasons:

1) There is more than one "secret society" aiming for total control, each with their own ideas about how society should be controlled. In order for one group to achieve that goal, they would have to eliminate the others, which would involve conscripting the working class in a constant state of war between conquerors (much like capitalism but with higher stakes). If the general public (the foundation of any conquering elite's system of control) becomes consciously aware of the situation and start to resist in unity with the general publics of other spheres of influence, the plutocrats are doomed, because their ability to compete is crippled.

2) Even if one group achieves total control in the end, the oligarchy is still vulnerable to fragmentation and splintering as these few elites start getting their own ideas about their future role in society. This would lead to another state of war and another opportunity for the plutocrats to be overthrown.

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quote:

Originally posted by Paddy Gregory:

Weather started off poor but got better the last day I was there .

That seems to be unwritten law down there.

quote:

I was discussing this very issue with some people while was there, which is when I go the 'double majority' idea explained to me. Forgive me if I simplify this somewhat, but is it true that a single vote in Canton Schaffausen, for example, counts 33x that of a vote in Canton Bern? For me, this os not a true referendum; ie one man (or woman), one vote. I was told that this is to preserve the 'local' attitudes to major issues, regardless of how the majority vote goes. He said it was to prevent the majority vote always winning. Isn't that the point of a referendum in the first place? Put the vote to the people and let the majority decide? I knew Switzerland was democracy gone mad, but this is ridiculous. Basically, you're letting a minority of people determine the result of a national vote. I'm confused.

The system is comparable to the US electoral college for presidential elections. It guarantees that the rural cantons with little population have their say when important matters are discussed by giving them the possibility to gang up to reject a bill. Otherwise the densly populated urban cantons could always win, regardless of how strong opposition in rural cantons is.

I agree that this violates the one man one vote principle, but it was deemed necessary to prevent the "tyranny of the majority". It's not that the minority can always decide against the majority because (to prevent that UN membership for example) the opponents would have needed 12 cantons of 23 voting against it (they got 11) which is quite a feat to achieve. That said you can see that the tool referendum is tailored in favor of the status quo (since popular or cantons majority is enough to kill off a bill).

Although the double majority requirement for changes of the constitution was introduced to appease the conservative rural cantons which were defeated in the civil war (1848), the application of that requirement for joining international/supranational organizations is a more recent occurance.

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Jeesh..I'm almost hesitant to put in my two cents, but...I will anyway (Gotta love Forums)

I've read almost everyone's posts so far, and it seems like everyone has some very good points on both sides of the issues about the UN and what it may or may not become, and what will the US do.

Well it seems that there are a few points that we all, no matter what side of the fence your on, can agree. The UN is or perhaps at least use to be under a large influence from the US. Due to financing, location, and many other factors.

Now I love the good ole US of A, but let's face it. The world is becoming more and more a global market and a hell of a lot smaller than we once use to think. And that is going to lead to a power struggle of some sort.

Hopefully it won't be an armed one, I prefer a political or economical conflict, although I suppose those could be just as messy as the first.

However, facts are facts. And it's obvious that the one planet we have is just not big enough, nor safe enough for us to remain soley on for too long. We are moving spaceward...slowly, but hopefully fast enough...ironically we all are here because of a game that speaks of an EarthCom, which is what exactly? I'm not going to type it in because it sidetracks what I'm talking about, look it up in the manual if you don't know.

For those who do, then understand and agree that it is inevitable, that such a global governing body come into existence. However, this is probably a century or so away from ever becoming fully capable of what it will be expected to do.

So what are we talking about then, the fears, expectations, complications, and growing pains of what is going to happen to the Super Power(s) and all the other countries who may or may not posses equal economical, military, or political assets as the greater countries...but will have equal representation in the global government? Yes, they'd have to, hopefully not off population either (CHINA, INDIA). Otherwise everyone will be trying to pump out as many children as they can just to get a bigger piece of the representative pie. And I think we all can agree...that is not the right way to go about it. I would say equal is equal, one representative for each...but there might be a better way, let someone else think of it.

Basically a global system of government based largely off founding principles similar to the United States, with a lot of changes as will be needed for such a beast of a government. Who really cares about the small details at this point, those will be decided in time.

I'm sure as Americans our concerns are that our rights and privelages are not changed in anyway, except by our own representatives and governing body. However, who is to say that is the case, and that is our worst fear isn't it? Would we fight then? That's the big question. If that is the cost for creating this global government, are we going to be willing to support it then?

I personally would be willing to support a world government that believe's in what the US was founded on. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness. And many other nations seem support these values as well. But any global government not living up to those values...there might be a global government, but not with the U.S. in it. And that would probably mean a war...

Cause a global government is going to govern globally...even us.

Sincerely to all,

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quote:

Originally posted by Shintai Tusatsu:

Basically a global system of government based largely off founding principles similar to the United States, with a lot of changes as will be needed for such a beast of a government. Who really cares about the small details at this point, those will be decided in time.

its the small details that got the US into most of its problems

quote:

Originally posted by Shintai Tusatsu:

I'm sure as Americans our concerns are that our rights and privelages are not changed in anyway, except by our own representatives and governing body. However, who is to say that is the case, and that is our worst fear isn't it? Would we fight then? That's the big question. If that is the cost for creating this global government, are we going to be willing to support it then?

no one should have the power to change our rights, thats y they are "OURS". will pppl fight i can quarentee it. and the cost would be a few controlling the many almost like slaves, either u have money to control or ur broke and get controlled

quote:

Originally posted by Shintai Tusatsu:

I personally would be willing to support a world government that believe's in what the US was founded on.

apparently u dont know what america was founded on originally. it was found by thieves and made by crooks.

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Enigma, was I arguing, "no..."

And since you are so adept at posting part of my comments but not the whole thing, I'm wondering if you were actually reading my comments or just looking for something to pick apart?

I said "...the founding principles that the US was founded on...Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness..."

You are entitled to your opinions of course, as am I.

If you want to take such a beautiful view of how the US was founded, then feel free. But don't lecture me on history, I'm quite well versed in it.

I was referring to our declaration of independence and the constitution, which our founding fathers hammered out "the small details of."

Both of which, I have put my life and a lot of the soldiers under my command at risk for. If you think that is what our country was founded on...then why are you here? And why are you speaking so patriotic?

And I'm sorry but a Global government will have global policies that affect all countries, just as the US Federal Laws do to US States.

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Enigma, what the.. are you talking about? America founded by thieves and crooks? I think you have it backwards. It was founded by heros and now is rulled by crooks and thieves.

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quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

Enigma, what the.. are you talking about? America founded by thieves and crooks? I think you have it backwards. It was founded by heros and now is rulled by crooks and thieves.

who settled the land america started out on? the pilgrims, and who had it first? the natives, until they were killed by the pilgrims and had thier land taken. and most of the ppl who came over here with any thing decent to call freedom were criminals, outcasts, undesirables and the religious persecuted.

and Shintai Tusatsu i picked apart what i didnt argee with, but i read the whole thing. and if ur military i respect what u do, but i wont pull the wool over my own eyes and make America seem like its all that. i live here cause its the best worst place to live currently

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quote:

I remember a debate we had where I laid out the economic realities of it and you never attempted to dispute it. Communism is an economic impossibility.

I don't remember that. In any case, I'm still learning (currently reading Marx's Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844) and my debating skills have improved since my irritable posts of the past, so the four page debate threads will be revived in the future.

[ 03-15-2002, 03:02: Message edited by: Menchise ]

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Enigma...

"...and if ur military i respect what u do, but i wont pull the wool over my own eyes and make America seem like its all that. i live here cause its the best worst place to live currently..."

Do you think that people who serve this country are blind to the problems both present, past and future? Or even just an average citizen who speaks proudly of the US and our achievements?

It is with all probability that those people are more aware of our problems/faults than any others.

And so they are trying to make a difference, as much as they can, or in the very least, say they tried and set a good example.

Back to my original post, I never said that we were perfect, no country is...I was talking about the founding principles of this nation. And I pointed them out in my second post to this thread.

So don't try to make apples out of oranges, this has gone completely off the subject we were talking about. You said yourself, the best of the worst places. Well feel that way if you choose to...it is perhaps an accurate statement.

But I would never say it that way. Too many good people have died trying to make a difference and when you speak like that you dishonor everything they stood for.

Besides, my whole point was founding principles of this Global government...and who better to model a global government after, the worst of the worst or the best of the worst?

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quote:

Originally posted by Enigma:

quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

Enigma, what the.. are you talking about? America founded by thieves and crooks? I think you have it backwards. It was founded by heros and now is rulled by crooks and thieves.

who settled the land america started out on? the pilgrims, and who had it first? the natives, until they were killed by the pilgrims and had thier land taken. and most of the ppl who came over here with any thing decent to call freedom were criminals, outcasts, undesirables and the religious persecuted.

and Shintai Tusatsu i picked apart what i didnt argee with, but i read the whole thing. and if ur military i respect what u do, but i wont pull the wool over my own eyes and make America seem like its all that. i live here cause its the best worst place to live currently


Get a history book. You are confusing America with Australia.
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quote:

Originally posted by Shintai Tusatsu:

Do you think that people who serve this country are blind to the problems both present, past and future? Or even just an average citizen who speaks proudly of the US and our achievements?

more than u think are blind to it

quote:

It is with all probability that those people are more aware of our problems/faults than any others. And so they are trying to make a difference, as much as they can, or in the very least, say they tried and set a good example.

how can one make a difference when they are forced by laws to listen to the ones who cuase the problems?

quote:

Too many good people have died trying to make a difference and when you speak like that you dishonor everything they stood for.

i feel i honor them, cause i refuse to be fooled into false hopes and dreams and im useing the rights they fought and died for to keep for us. and you speak of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. what about the homeless who cant be happy with a home, and the minorites who still get treated like less than equal, weres thier liberty. and what about all the born citizens who can get jack sjit from the govt, but they will pay out to ppl commin here from other countries, foreigners make out better the we do in most cases

quote:

Besides, my whole point was founding principles of this Global government...and who better to model a global government after, the worst of the worst or the best of the worst?

how about niether?

quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

Get a history book. You are confusing America with Australia.

it happened in both, places, but Austrailia was mainly a penal colony. and history books arent accurate being that they are writtin by man, and man can change what he doesnt agree with. thats y we get new laws.

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I haven't read all of the posts, so i'm probably not going to respond accurately, but all this talk about World Government...you guys play Deus Ex too much. If you ever go get a tour of the UN, the tour guides even TELL you they have no power. No need to worry about a World Government yet, at best, the US is going to use it's power to effectively control the world. At worst we're all going to nuke each other because of it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Dredd:

I haven't read all of the posts, so i'm probably not going to respond accurately, but all this talk about World Government...you guys play Deus Ex too much. If you ever go get a tour of the UN, the tour guides even TELL you they have no power. No need to worry about a World Government yet, at best, the US is going to use it's power to effectively control the world. At worst we're all going to nuke each other because of it.

im sure uv heard of the words lies, or pluasible deniablity? Cant tell what u dont know.

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