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New Debate :Israel vs Palestine/Arab States


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Very nice example Dredd, but there is a bit of a problem. Unlike the hypothetical militia groups you are proposing, the Palestinians donÔÇÖt hate the government (well, they probably do, but thatÔÇÖs beside the point) they hate the people. Furthermore, theyÔÇÖre religious zealots (or at least a good portion of them are) and they are trained from birth to hate and kill Jews. The only way to stop the problem would be to kill every last Palestinian (quite a task to say the least) or to have such extreme control over them as to dictate there education, the type of media they receive, and what they are allowed to talk about in there homes. The only kind of government that has ever had that kind of control over a decent sized group of people is a totalitarian one.

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It seams to me that the Palestinians have yet to reach that point, and if there media continues to preach about the need to kill Jews then I doubt that they will ever get there. Anyway, the use of suicide bombers suggests a general lack of value for human life as well as general paucity of common sense.

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

Originally posted by Menchise:

there comes a time when both sides get so sick of death that they just want it to end. That time is now.


that time has past... peaceful soloution is LONG overdue in this situation, but neither side wants to back down, thinking they are showing weakness by doing so.

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quote:

It seams to me that the Palestinians have yet to reach that point, and if there media continues to preach about the need to kill Jews then I doubt that they will ever get there. Anyway, the use of suicide bombers suggests a general lack of value for human life as well as general paucity of common sense.

If anything, the massacre at Jenin suggests that the Israeli military has a lack of value for human life. They are on a retribution spree ("they kill 1 of us, we kill 10 of them"). This is exactly what the Nazis did in the '30s and '40s. Sharon is now suspected of war crimes, which is why the government is trying to bury the issue.

The issue of the suicide bombings within Israel's borders is very simple: they lack all common sense and are completely illegitimate acts of desperation.

However, in the Occupied Territories, the issue becomes more complicated since the presence of the Israeli military is illegal. A hypothetical analogy would be the US Army occupying Mexico. In that kind of situation, the Palestinians are within their rights to fight the Israeli troops.

quote:

What both sides need to do is READ THIS THREAD.

I swear, most problems in the world could be solved if people just came to this site and read the General Forum threads!

LOL!

[ 05-01-2002, 23:45: Message edited by: Menchise ]

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The thing I find disturbing with regards to the Jenin issue is the intense isreali opposition to any sort of UN investigation. One of their stipulations for cooperation is that the Isreali's could dictate who could and could not be questioned. Why would this be nessecary if nothing happened?

Let's not forget however that despite isreali resitance, no conclusive proof has yet to surface that such a massecer (yes I cannot spell) took place. Still it boggles the mind to imagine what sort of opposition Isreal would have to a UN investigative commity. Surely Isreal cannot believe that a UN commision would be biased, and yet strong resitance to any such action is takeing place at every level of the government. And what really gets me is NO explaination from Isreal as to why! They offer no reasoning, no justification, not even a shallow lie as to why the UN cannot go there. This I feel is quite damaging to their image.

Kush's quote:

"What both sides need to do is READ THIS THREAD."

Reading everyone's responses, has a single person modified or moderated their view in the slightest bit? Or is everyone essentially airing their views and disregarding good points made by the opposition, and instead only responding to the weakest points? It would be nice if seeing a little truth would actually change someones mind, but most people are too proud for that, and it is sad.

[ 05-02-2002, 00:11: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

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However, in the Occupied Territories, the issue becomes more complicated since the presence of the Israeli military is illegal. A hypothetical analogy would be the US Army occupying Mexico. In that kind of situation, the Palestinians are within their rights to fight the Israeli troops.

That you say that is quite interesting, but I would like to point out that all concepts of law are totally artificial. Perhaps I should make an analogy of the Native Americans. If a group of Native Americans decided that they wanted the US to surrender them Washington, Oregon, and California and then starts terrorist activities when the government (predictably might I add) refuses.

This is not a perfect analogy, I admit, but it does get the point across. If conquest is illegal (and you will have a hard time finding anyone in power to agree with you) then just about EVERY COUNTRY has illegal borders. Furthermore, your example about the US occupying Mexico is a little deceptive. The Israeli military isnÔÇÖt occupying any territories, they have conquered them. If the US was to invade and conquer Mexico for whatever reason then there would no longer be a Mexico, it would simply be a territory in the US.

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Your analogy to native americans is a good one, in that the Palestinians currently occupy land that doesn't exactly have a solid soverign government. They are sort of stuck there and Isreal must deal with them.

However I feel that your use of the word "conquered" may be a little too strong. It is true that invadeing armies passed through territory currently claimed by the Palestinians, however their current occupation didn't involve any conquering. To conquer something suggests that some sort of opposition was given in defense. It was more like the Isreali military chased fleeing and defeated remenants of the invaders through the territory in question. Just a matter of semantics however.

Menchise's analogy to Mexico isn't quite accurate because of the fact that Mexico is an established and recognized soverign nation, while Palestine is not yet.

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quote:

Originally posted by Menchise:

quote:

If anything, the massacre at Jenin suggests that the Israeli military has a lack of value for human life. They are on a retribution spree ("they kill 1 of us, we kill 10 of them"). This is exactly what the Nazis did in the '30s and '40s. Sharon is now suspected of war crimes, which is why the government is trying to bury the issue.

The issue of the suicide bombings within Israel's borders is very simple: they lack all common sense and are completely illegitimate acts of desperation.


LOL!


How dare you uneducated/missinformed fool. The official count from Palestinians themselfs was announced today by the right hand man of Yasa Arafat and it totalled up to 56, 6 of witch were civillians and the rest admitted by Palestinians to be terrorists. Now ANSWER THIS. And ANSWER IT instead of avoiding it. HOW MANY ISRAELI CIVILIANS DID ARABIC TERRORISTS KILL? HOW MANY? Israel government even appologized for the death of 6 civillians, while palestinians SPECIFICALLY target civillians. You DARE to compare Israeli sweep for terrorists to terrorists themselfs and terrorist activities. This is beyond ludicrous, this is just insane. I tried staying out of this thread but reading your earlier posts I just couldn't hold it anymore, especially that idiotic article you posted witch called for dismantlement of "Iron wall" (Israels military). Israel would no longer exist if that happened. I just can't believe the things you are saying. Don't even have any words left.
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Surely Isreal cannot believe that a UN commision would be biased, and yet strong resitance to any such action is takeing place at every level of the government.

Of course the UN can be biased, theyÔÇÖre human beings and come equipped with all the flaws of human beings, to thing otherwise would be an act of madness.

quote:

Reading everyone's responses, has a single person modified or moderated their view in the slightest bit? Or is everyone essentially airing their views and disregarding good points made by the opposition, and instead only responding to the weakest point? It would be nice if seeing a little truth would actually change someones mind, but most people are too proud for that, and it is sad.

ThatÔÇÖs not entirely true, I really had little or no opinion in this whole issue before visiting this thread and so my point of view was molded by the arguments that I heard. The fact that IÔÇÖm not very swayed by others arguments has more to do with my unusual opinions on morality then anything else.

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In my opinion, the only reason the Palestinians called the action a Jenin a "massacre" was to get people to stop talking about the "Passover Massacre" that started the recent incursions.

Furthermore, the reason the Palestinians were harping on a shell that killed a Palestinian child was to change the subject from the Palestinians who masqueraded as Israeli soldiers and killed the Israeli girl.

See a pattern?

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The Israeli military isnÔÇÖt occupying any territories, they have conquered them. If the US was to invade and conquer Mexico for whatever reason then there would no longer be a Mexico, it would simply be a territory in the US.

Not true. For an external territory to be a part of a country it must be annexed. The Occupied Territories have not been annexed (hence the term 'occupied'), thus the Israeli government has no legal authority over them regardless of territorial sovereignty or lack thereof. In fact, the government deliberately avoids annexation in order to maintain a Jewish majority in its population.

quote:

How dare you uneducated/missinformed fool. The official count from Palestinians themselfs was announced today by the right hand man of Yasa Arafat and it totalled up to 56, 6 of witch were civillians and the rest admitted by Palestinians to be terrorists.

Looks like a preliminary count rather than a final count. The estimated deaths at Jenin alone are ten times that figure.

quote:

Now ANSWER THIS. And ANSWER IT instead of avoiding it. HOW MANY ISRAELI CIVILIANS DID ARABIC TERRORISTS KILL? HOW MANY?

I don't know the exact figure. According to an earlier post in this thread, 1260 Palestinians and 410 Israelis were killed between September 2001 and 4 April 2002.

quote:

You DARE to compare Israeli sweep for terrorists to terrorists themselfs and terrorist activities. This is beyond ludicrous, this is just insane.

The idea that Israelis were sweeping for terrorists in Jenin is what's ludicrous! Mass graves are being uncovered, and Israeli troops were trucking dead bodies out of the camp. The body count has been estimated to be 500! Answer this: Why would the Israeli military try to hide the bodies of 500 Palestinian 'terrorists'?!

quote:

I tried staying out of this thread but reading your earlier posts I just couldn't hold it anymore, especially that idiotic article you posted witch called for dismantlement of "Iron wall" (Israels military).

I suggest you read the article again, because you misinterpreted what the Iron Wall is.

quote:

In my opinion, the only reason the Palestinians called the action a Jenin a "massacre" was to get people to stop talking about the "Passover Massacre" that started the recent incursions.

That's some opinion considering the growing body of evidence indicating that a massacre did occur, and that the Israelis are trying to cover it up.

[ 05-02-2002, 07:06: Message edited by: Menchise ]

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There is NO evidence, the only reason that Israel kept the UN out was because the UN had an agenda and Israel wasn't gonna play.

There was NO massacre, I repeat, NO massacre. The red Cross has been in there and a number of other international organizations, there were about 50 killed, 9 being civilians caught in the crossfire. That's it that's all folks.

This massacre stuff was propaganda at it's worst and has been proven to be false. Sorry Menchise, you fell for it HOOK, LINE, and SINKER!!!

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Menchise, there is no mass graves, there is no hundreds murdered, there is no trucks hauling bodies out of Jenin. Like I said, 56 was the OFFICIAl COUNT from the Palestinins themselfs. The right hand man (don't remember his name *kinda complicated sounding*) of Yasa announced it himself. What else is there to say. So looks like Israel is not a monster that is murdering civillins, arab terrorists are. Looks like the Israel is not killing hundreds of people, arabs are. As for that Iron wall, I read the article and that's exactly what it says, Iron wall is a metaphore for Israels military power, and the article calls for dismantlement of that *wall* and for Jews to invite arabs into their country while also give them presents on the way inn. I will give you a comparison to that. US has literally no border, it's border is a joke and look at it. One time I was passing a city in CA on my vacation trip and ALL the signs in there were in Spanish, made me sick. Is this US of A or is this mexican territory. Why are people who are granted citizenship here don't even have to speak a word of english and are provided translators for the test, and why do you think 9/11 happened? If US was a country proud and distinct, with it's borders secure, it's own language and culture then it would be a country with future, right now it's not. So my point IS, Israel wants to be a country, it doesn't want to merge with arab states and become one of them and be overrun by them, not militarily, not socially. So that's why I called that article idiotic, because it calls for disimination of Israel and creation of socialist state for the whole middle east, while what will happen is a whole arab state in the middle east.

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It just doesn't look good that Isreal is delaying the UN. That's a Saddam tactic. And it just makes you look guilty.

Plus Sharon has a shaky human rights record.

Every nation has the right to protect themselves, no nation, not the US, not Canada, not even Israel has the right to commit mass murder, no matter what any terrorist organization has done or will do in the future.

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quote:

Menchise... Where IS your growing body of evidence for any events at Jenin?

Well, I have an article quoting the eyewitness accounts of two British journalists that corroborate Palestinian accusations of indiscriminate killing by the Israelis.

quote:

As for that Iron wall, I read the article and that's exactly what it says, Iron wall is a metaphore for Israels military power, and the article calls for dismantlement of that *wall* and for Jews to invite arabs into their country while also give them presents on the way inn.

The Iron Wall is a militaristic philosophy of racial division and European Jewish supremacism that is adopted by the Israeli government and enforced by the military. It is the foundation of Israel's racial 'democracy'. It is the reason why the Israeli government has no intention of pursuing a lasting peace with the Palestinians unless it's a consolidation of Israeli power (see the 1993 agreement).

The Iron Wall is about keeping the Palestinians subject to Israeli rule without granting them any of the civil rights that the Israelis have. Palestinians can't get a decent job in Israel because members of the workforce are required to have served in the Israeli military (being Palestinian makes that almost impossible), thus they are also not allowed to hold public office. They are effectively marginalized by the Israeli government despite its claims of wanting peaceful coexistence. How will there ever be peace between Israel and the Palestinians when the Israeli government treats its own Palestinians so poorly?

quote:

One time I was passing a city in CA on my vacation trip and ALL the signs in there were in Spanish, made me sick. Is this US of A or is this mexican territory.

As I recall, the USA doesn't have a national language, so the people can put Spanish, English, Swahili, or any other language on the signs if they want to. It's called freedom of diversity.

quote:

If US was a country proud and distinct, with it's borders secure, it's own language and culture then it would be a country with future, right now it's not.

That does not make sense! Melting the USA down to a single language and culture is invariably destructive to the whole concept of culture. It encourages racial division and marginalization, not to mention sowing the seeds of xenophobia, which does nothing to contribute to any positive future. I speak from experience here. It is this singular mindset that is currently turning Australia into the most racist country in the Western world. We already put Arab and Asian refugees in concentration camps! Trust me: cultural hegemony does not work.

quote:

So my point IS, Israel wants to be a country, it doesn't want to merge with arab states and become one of them and be overrun by them, not militarily, not socially. So that's why I called that article idiotic, because it calls for disimination of Israel and creation of socialist state for the whole middle east, while what will happen is a whole arab state in the middle east.

I disagree. I think the article calls for an association where Arabs and Jews are equal. Ironically, that was the original goal of the Fatah (Arafat's organization that eventually took over the PLO): to form a democratic secular state of Jews and Arabs. The PLO abandoned that goal after Black September (1970), and shifted to the goal of a neighbouring mini-state.

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Menchise, ONE (inferred from the comment "an article") source does not constitute a "growing body" of evidence as to a massacre. Go look at any of the major news sites; there is much more evidence pointing to a clean military action with a few civilian casulaties.

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Eclipse,

I really hope you don't depend on news sites for the truth.

What is needed is a thorough UN sponsored investigation into Jenin. Let trained UN proffesionals declare what happened, not rumours or internet news sites.

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Kush,

What is all this UN crap you keep spouting?

The UN HATES Israel, they have an agenda, the only thing that the UN will discover is the fact that one of the main city that the UN sponsors is a mainstay of Arafats Terrorist factions. Now I wonder how that happened.

You want WWIII to break out? then let the UN in there to screw it up, just as they always do.

The UN is a has been, ti screams a lot, but it has no power to do anything, it is better to ignore that POS organization and get on with doing what must be done.

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The reason Israel was balking at the UN commission was that the UN was seating people who were known to sit on contradictory findings during the NATO Kosovo fact-finding study. Israel felt that they were going to get "rail-roaded" by the same people.

Here's an interesting link to a US network media watchdog group observation of the nightly news broadcasts from two nights ago:

quote:


Here's last night:

quote:


[ 05-03-2002, 15:34: Message edited by: Steve Schacher ]

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