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New Debate :Israel vs Palestine/Arab States


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quote:

504...


Wow, 504 signatures out of an army plus reserves of 600,000, now that's impressive....

NOT!!

.01% not 1%, not 10%, .01%.

Give me a freaking break, and this is important because?

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I don't need links to find out.

I communicate regularly with active IDF members, some are officers,some are enlisted, and one is a gunship pilot. I will get my info first hand, thank you very much.

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quote:

Originally posted by Dredd:

I'm sure that there have been a lot more than 500 objectors in the US military to World War II. Does that mean we should have let the Nazis take over Europe? I don't think so.

At the first day of war germany invaded poland, and started attacking other countries without reserve. It's not the same as Palestine vs Israël - they aren't fighting an open, declared war. Yes, tension is high, and terrorist are attacking on a regular fashion, but it's still not war.

And in WW2 the enemy was clear. How many people supported the action of germany? In the present case (Is. vs pal.), you will find that many people support either's action - and view the other as the enemy. in ww2 the opposition was only about being against supporting europe struggle vs germany.

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quote:

Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

quote:

Originally posted by Dredd:

I'm sure that there have been a lot more than 500 objectors in the US military to World War II. Does that mean we should have let the Nazis take over Europe? I don't think so.

At the first day of war germany invaded poland, and started attacking other countries without reserve. It's not the same as Palestine vs Israël - they aren't fighting an open, declared war. Yes, tension is high, and terrorist are attacking on a regular fashion, but it's still not war.

And in WW2 the enemy was clear. How many people supported the action of germany? In the present case (Is. vs pal.), you will find that many people support either's action - and view the other as the enemy. in ww2 the opposition was only about being against supporting europe struggle vs germany.


1. Ok, so "declaring war" would make it so that the objectors in the military are somehow less important than them objecting now to the military actions? What does "declaring war" have to do with it. I'm pretty sure we were at war with Japan the second they started dropping bombs on our ships at Pearl Harbor, waiting for Congress to SAY we are at war is just a legal technicality that's irrelevent. It's the troops job and they should deal with it regardless of it being a "declared war" or not. Israel doesn't have a national guard like the US does (as far as I know). If we had terrorists blowing up buildings and there were some National Guard members who agreed with the terrorist ideologies, they would have to deal with it and keep doing their jobs ANYWAY to stop the terrorists, regardless of their personal feelings.

2. There were plenty of objectors to us helping out Europe in WW2, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have. (this is just an argument against that stupid "WE are Israelis against fighting" website)

3. So you're saying that the number of people supporting a cause determines whether or not it is right, or if it is valid for people to support or oppose it? I'm sure a good number of the Germans supported the war, as did the Japanese, some Russian (to a point), and the Italians. Israel vs Palestine is clear. There are TERRORISTS that are blowing up ISRAELIS for a "cause".

The terrorists are the "enemy". The Israeli people are NOT the enemy, no matter how you cut it. The "power" that the Israeli government has over the Palestinians is not based in the INNOCENT CIVILIANS that the terrorists keep killing. It's based in the MILITARY TROOPS that Israel has at MILITARY BASES and Israel's POLICE FORCES. The Palestinians are the enemy because they ignore the distinction between ending their oppression (by targeting military installations and the foundations of the government's continued power) and just killing innocent people to send a message (which is what they are doing NOW). I'm sure a large number of people in the Middle East supported the 9/11 attacks. That sure as hell didn't make THEM right.

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The terrorists are the "enemy". The Israeli people are NOT the enemy

Neither are the Palestinian people who's rights are being violated under the fourth Geneva convention, with Israel in violation of UN resolution 446, 452, and 465. Thinking of this situation in deeper terms in difficult is it not? Let's just watch Fox to find out the "truth".

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There is NO such thing as a "Palestinian" people.

Let's get that straight right from the get go.

The socalled "occupied Territories were won with blood in the 1967 war. The Israelis OWN it, no one else has claim to that. That is like saying because we won the revolutionary war, we should give back the colonies to the British.

MOST of the so-called "Palestinians" are actually Jordanians that were kicked out after trying to overthrow the government there.

THey have NO right to the land they live on, end of story.

If they want a country, then they had 1: better stop the terrorism. 2: make sure that their constitution does not have a clause promising the destruction of Israel, which it still does.

and last but not least, get rid of their Egyptian leader and get a leader from within their own number who is NOT a terrorist.

Until those things happen there cannot be and will not peace until one or the other is destroyed.

War is hell, is it not?

THe Palestinians have bit off a bit more then they can chew, and they are going to choke on it.

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TheyÔÇÖve been choking for years.

quote:

Until those things happen there cannot be and will not peace until one or the other is destroyed.

What is wrong with you? Where in history are people totally destroyed? And where and when is that acceptable? What is wrong with you?

When a people believe that the total destruction of another is a form of justice or somehow acceptable, we have to ask who defines justice and what gives them the right to decide that answer. If that answer is economic advantage or political expedience those making that determination have precisely defined inhumanityany rational person would still be lost for an answer to this brutal solution abhorred by any God of peace under any name.

What prayers would a God answer? Those of the impoverished and oppressedor those who claim piety while turning a blind eye to the suffering of billions?

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Give me a break Lotharr, The Palestinians have as much right to that land as I do.

If anyone has right to claim that land it would be Jordan and Syria.

The Palestinians raise hell whereever they have been. Jordan invited them to stay and to thank for that they tried to overthrow the King, who invited them in as refugees and told them they could stay and be citizens.

He of course KICKED their butts out when they tried to overthrow him, then the UN in their Graciousness decided to help with the refugee camps. The So-called "palestinians" decided that they wanted to take the land that they were on AWAY from Israel, and then drive the Jews into the sea.

THEY WISH TO KILL AND ENTIRE PEOPLE LOTHARR!! They want to KILL EVERY jew in Israel!!

Did you get that? They want to KILL EVERY JEW IN ISRAEL and drive the remainder into the sea and take over the land for themselves.

75% of the Palestinian people feel this way, guess what, I have NO sympathy for them AT ALL.

They have brought this on themselves, if it destroys them, so be it. With Choice comes cost, and sometimes those costs are great, and the cost to them will be their destruction as a people if they do not figure out what they need to do.

Israel WILL destroy them, if the the threat is great enough, and the weapon they will use is unforgiving and blind to the innocent. If the innocent want to survive, they had better speak up and put a stop to the terrorists within their midst!!!

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Always fighting for the underdog and the coward, aren't you Lotharr?

Yep, definitely a public school student, no doubts in my mind.

No logical thought process and believes anyone that believes like his teacher does.

From now on I am just going to ignore your posts, they are laden with BS, propaganda, and no critical thinking at all.

When you learn to think for yourself, let me know and we can talk again, but until then, I will ignore your inane, unsubstantiated and clueless posts.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lotharr:

quote:

The terrorists are the "enemy". The Israeli people are NOT the enemy

Neither are the Palestinian people who's rights are being violated under the fourth Geneva convention, with Israel in violation of UN resolution 446, 452, and 465. Thinking of this situation in deeper terms in difficult is it not? Let's just watch Fox to find out the "truth".


Ok, first you make a few false assumptions:

1. The fourth Geneva convention is supreme.

WRONG: Sure, it's really important, but if the Israelis are getting massacred, their government has a HIGHER RESPONSIBILITY to protect their CITIZENS than UPHOLD A TREATY. I sure as hell wouldn't want the US to uphold arms treaties if we started getting nuked.

2. UN resolutions are supreme.

WRONG: Again, same as above. You should take your own advice and think in deeper terms. Sure, it's nice and easy to think about how Israel should "play fair" and follow "international law", but you aren't having public transportation being blown up with your friends and family on it and having glass scattered all over the street in front of you.

3. The Palestinian's Rights are being violated

PROBABLY WRONG: What rights, EXACTLY are being violated? Palestinians aren't getting lined up and shot. They aren't being put into concentration camps. They aren't being robbed of food. A group of people has effectively declared war on the state of Israel. Israel is effectively enforcing marshal law to protect it's citizens in dangerous areas and sources of violence. Yes, some civilians are dying, but that happens in any war or conflict and the Israeli government is not telling them to TARGET civilians either. So, I ask again, what rights are being violated? The Palestinians sure don't have a right to carry out terrorist acts against CIVILIANS.

Also, you fail to respond to my argument about the justification of each side's actions. Even *IF* the Palestinians are *POSSIBLY* right in their cause (which I do not believe), they are notably in the WRONG since they are NOT attacking the power base of their "oppressors". They obviously aren't trying to get rid of their "oppression" or they would be targetting GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS and MILITARY INSTALLATIONS. Killing civilians does NOT erode the power that the government holds over the Palestinians and it just shows the NATURE of the Palestinians cause. Israel, on the other hand, has only been carrying out acts in RESPONSE to attacks on civilians and any civilian deaths are not INTENTIONAL or TARGETTED against them. They are just trying to kill the terrorists. Unless you can somehow justify the Palestinians means, they are obviously not the LEAST bit on the side of "right", and them trying to hide behind international law just PROVES the flaws of international law and the UN.

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