Jump to content
3000AD Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Hunted

New Debate :Israel vs Palestine/Arab States

Recommended Posts

Guest $iLk

"Eyewitness" journalists are still people. It cannot be denied that the news media has their own reasons for corroborating false sources and ignoring the truth.

The media is using it's own political goals as templates of reporting, they are hardly 'impartial'.

Very little of what was reported by the news media actually took place in Jenin. Taken from actual eyewitnesses and photographs which can be found in many impartial news sites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 'Jenin Massacre' hoax, by Charles Krauthammer

Excerpt:

quote:

Take Jenin. What was the real story? That hand-to-hand, door-to-door combat, in an intensely built-up shantytown, among dozens of houses booby-trapped by Palestinian fighters, should have yielded somewhere between seven and 21 scattered civilian casualties is nothing less than astonishing. It testifies to the extraordinary scrupulousness of the Israeli army, which lost 23 soldiers in the battle, precisely because it did not want to cause the civilian casualties that come with aerial bombardment, as has happened everywhere from Grozny to Kabul. And yet Israel was investigated precisely for defending itself against massacres that warrant no investigation.

Why TV News Loves A Liar , by John Podhoretz

Excerpt:

quote:

ON April 17, when Israel completed its military action in Jenin, the Palestinian spokesman Saeb Erekat told CNN's Wolf Blitzer, "We have 1,600 missing men in this refugee camp. Mostly women and children, husbands and wives . . . How many people were massacred[?] We say the number will not be less than 500."

Erekat just loves the number 500. A week earlier, he said on CNN: "I'm afraid to say that the number of Palestinian dead in the Israeli attacks have reached more than 500 now."

This week a Palestinian review committee reported a death toll of 56 in Jenin, of whom 34 were combatants. There are no missing women and children, because the Palestinians would be saying so. And they have not disputed Israeli claims that in the entire month-long series of incursions into the West Bank, the overall Palestinian death toll is around 100.

But let's focus on Jenin. The Palestinians themselves say that, in 13 days of vicious urban warfare, some 22 civilians were killed. So here's a question for you: Why are U.S. television networks booking Saeb Erekat to talk about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when he has repeatedly used their air waves to spread lies and deception?

When sources lie, don't you cut them off? When sources lie, don't you refuse to give them any more of your precious air time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh Menchise Menchise, ok lets try this again.

First. There is no masacre. OFFICIAL, it was an OFFICIAL REPORT, by PALESTINIAN MAN, the MAN WHO IS PALESTINIAN, WORKS FOR PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT, WORKS WITH YASA ARAFAT, THE YASA ARAFAT, the Yasa Arafat who is a PALESTINIAN LEADER, and that PALESTINIAN LEADER AGREES, that means that yes, you guessed it, the YASA ARAFAT HIMSELF agrees that there was no masacre. Are you still going to post that there is?

Second. Read the part about where I say that in America the people should be AMERICAN. I didn't say that all the races in America should be devided, I said that all the races in America should be American. What that means is I don't care if they are white, black, chineese, Japanese, Mexican, Albanian, Russian, British, WHATEVER THEY MIGHT BE, I want them to be AMERICAN if they leave their country of origin and come here with intent to enjoy the benefits of this country. I want them to be patriotic, to absorb the AMERICAN CULTURE, and to SPEAK the American language. I DON'T want them come here, and talk trash and dislike this country and say how somewhere else it's this and somewhere else it's that because if over there is this and that then GO THERE. Don't come here and try to set up a part of your country of origin here, it's USA and NOT ANY OTHER COUNTRY, nor SHOULD IT BE.

And last, that part about PHOBIA. Liberals are very quick about pointing things out and attaching PHOBIA at the end. Well let me tell you something, about PHOBIA. All the liberals claim to be so accepting about everything while in truth they are not, they are the first ones to scream PHOBIA while none exists. It's NORMAL to want to preserve your country, it's heritage, it's language and everything else, the liberals are the ones who are PHOBIC about everything because normal people look at something that someone with your belifs would label PHOBIC and say "what are you talking about, this is not phobic, this is just RIGHT". Tell me, are Israeli people Pelestinophobic when they see a Palestinian man walking into a coffee shop or are they just afraid that they will get killed because so many arab looking man have walked into coffee shops and blown everyone up. So you damn right I am *PHOBIC*, I am PHOBIC about loosing the future that I have hoped for when I emmigrated from Russia TO US. I PHOBIC of loosing this country to people who are here to destroy it, and I am PHOBIC of the same thing happening to Israel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Menchise, ONE (inferred from the comment "an article") source does not constitute a "growing body" of evidence as to a massacre. Go look at any of the major news sites; there is much more evidence pointing to a clean military action with a few civilian casulaties.

It was one primary source quoting two other primary sources.

Anyway, I decided to check one of the quoted sources and found some new info that discredits some claims and raises a few others.

According to British journalist Justin Huggler, who wrote a 7 page report on his investigation in Jenin for the Independent, the body count is between 50-80, half of which were civilians. He found no evidence of mass graves or mass removal of bodies.

However, he also states that the Israeli claim of not using airstrikes in Jenin is false. Apache helicopters did fire rockets on the camp, and there are consistent reports of indiscriminate and deliberate shooting of civilians on the ground, and the demolition of buildings by armoured bulldozers, even when they knew that people were still inside.

I have an excerpt of Huggler's report here:

quote:

For days Jenin became a slaughterhouse. A woman with her leg all but ripped off by a helicopter rocket, the mangled remains hanging on by a thread of skin as she slowly bleeds to death.

We saw the helicopter rockets rain down on heavily crowded areas.

The wounded left to die slowly, in horrible agony, because the ambulances were not allowed to treat them.

Munir Washabi bled to death over several hours after a helicopter round came through the wall of his home.

Munir's mother, Maryam, ran into the street screaming for help for her son and was shot in the head by Israeli soldiers.

So, despite some big exaggerations, there is still sufficient evidence that warrants investigation.

quote:

The UN HATES Israel, they have an agenda, the only thing that the UN will discover is the fact that one of the main city that the UN sponsors is a mainstay of Arafats Terrorist factions. Now I wonder how that happened.

The UN is not the only group for which Israel is denying access.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soback, when you set a single standard of American culture, it is cultural hegemony. Any American, especially if they immigrated to America, who does not conform to cultural hegemony is marginalized, hence racial division, because they're expected to abandon their own heritage and behave a certain way. They're expected to never complain about the country's problems even when so-called 'true' Americans do it all the time.

A diversity of cultures is important to the health of any vast society, otherwise it would socially and intellectually stagnate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote:

"A diversity of cultures is important to the health of any vast society, otherwise it would socially and intellectually stagnate."

Well said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

That does not make sense! Melting the USA down to a single language and culture is invariably destructive to the whole concept of culture. It encourages racial division and marginalization, not to mention sowing the seeds of xenophobia, which does nothing to contribute to any positive future. I speak from experience here. It is this singular mindset that is currently turning Australia into the most racist country in the Western world. We already put Arab and Asian refugees in concentration camps! Trust me: cultural hegemony does not work.

For the most part you are correct, attempting to homogenize American culture would be at best impossible and at worst a catastrophe. Having a single language, however, is a matter of efficiency. Never mind that people who canÔÇÖt speak English have a huge disadvantage trying to get a decent job, never mind that the inability to speak English makes a person much easier to take advantage of, and never mind that most people dismiss persons who canÔÇÖt speak English as ignorant if not stupid. Forget about all of these reasons why requiring people to learn English is for there own good, itÔÇÖs a matter of simply expediency to the rest of us. Putting up Spanish road signs places the majority of the population at a disadvantage, dealing with someone who speaks little or no English is a bloody pain, and then hearing people wine about class barriers and how Spanish speaking immigrants are disadvantaged and such not is just plain nauseating.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with people speaking other languages, or even speaking such languages primarily, that would be ridiculous. I'm simply saying that catering to people who donÔÇÖt speak English is not only aggravating for the rest of us but it places those disadvantaged individuals in the worst possible position. It should be required that immigrants can speak English, but as this isnÔÇÖt going to happen then at the very least minimal attempts should be made to educate them. The last thing we need to do is to import useless wretches who will be nothing but a strain on welfare because they canÔÇÖt even speak our language to get a decent job. Bah!

And yes, I know this is off topic, but thatÔÇÖs just too bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

English is the official language of the United States. In a free country, you are allowed to post signs in whatever language the people choose to posts signs in. You are free to speak whatever language you choose to, but the official language of the Federal govt, and State Govt agencies is English. It will always be English. Don't worry.

America has always been a melting pot. That's it's tradition. People may speak different languages in the States, but if they live there, they become American.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Menchise, I agree with what you said about cultural heritage and not forcing everyone to conform, the only thing I was ranting on was language. Cultural hegemony (at least in a country this size) is bad, a common language that everyone speaks and reads is good.

About your source on the Jenin ÔÇ£massacreÔÇØ I canÔÇÖt agree. The fact that, to the best of my knowledge, the Palestinians have not acknowledged the higher bodycount that your Justin Huggler reported suggest that its incorrect. That he is independent is no guarantee of the accuracy of his reporting, and the generally sensationalism of the excerpt you posted doesnÔÇÖt do anything to validate his writing, nor does the fact that it is terribly written.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

OK, here we go again.

In the 18 and early 1900's immigrants that came to the US brought thier own culture, but they did their best to change in order to fit into the culture of the US as well. They would learn English, they would freely go about find work and make money. They would do their darndest to fot into the US culture.

This has now changed, when immigrants come here they try to force their culture upon US. THey do not want to learn English, why? because we allow all this bilingual crap. If they want to speak their own language at home, that's great, they want to celebrate their own holidays at home, that's great, but they should NOT expect us to change our culture in order to allow them theirs.

We never had to do it before, we should not be doing it now. The US is a conglomeration of cultures, yes, but, we speak english, our values are based on capitalism, the constitution, and Judeo-Christians values. Immigrants to this country must expect to change in order to fit into our culture, not vise versa.

THe US indeed has values etc, and those values should not be changed because of immigrants.

We should NOT have to "get along". THe immigrants should be the ones "getting along".

English should be the official language of the US, Bilingual education puts those that do not speak english at a HUGE disadvantage. If you are an immigrant and do not have a job, well then you cannot become a citizen until you A: speak english and B: have a job and are working.

If an immigrant is on welfare, they should NOT be allowed to become a citizen, and if you cannot speak english you should not be allowed to become a citizen. As a matter of fact, if you ARE a citizen and are on Welfare, Social Security, or receive ANY government aid whatsoever, you should not be allowed to vote.

By the way, just to keep things straight, the UN despises Israel, ALWAYS has, ALWAYS will. The UN will attacke Israel with anythign and everything it can and it does. Israel trusts the UN as far as it can throw it, and they are correct to do so.

The UN DID NOT create Israel, the British gave the land to the Jewish population of the world, in guilt over the holocaust, and Israel declared itself in 1947, and was promptly attacked by the arabs, which they defeated. Israel created itself, not the UN!!

This propaganda I hear you people continue to spout just amazes me. It is rather disapointing, but I will do my best to educate where I can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

English is the official Language of the US. The vast majority of immigrants to America learn English, and WANT TO BE AMERICAN. They don't want to make America into a version of the country they just left. Relax. American culture is not threatened by immigration. As a matter of fact American culture is one of the US's biggest exports. Nobody wants it to change. Not even those of us who don't live in America.

(oh and by the by, pretty well everyone who lives in America are immigrants or the decendants of immigrants. Everyone except for the Native population )

When the UN recognized Israel, the country formally existed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Kush,

GIVE ME A FRICKING BREAK, so, are you telling me that the United States did not exist until the UN recognized them? or Canada did NOT exist until the UN recognized them?

Get real, what the devil are they teaching you up there?

Israel became a nation when they declared themselves to be and beat off the Arabic nations that wished to destroy them, once Israel had proved itself militariy capable of keeping the territory it had, it then became a nation, whether the UN recognized it or not. Just as the US became a nation when we the people declared it as such. We were not recognized by many nations, but that did not make it a fact that we did not exist as a nation.

The UN has NO POWER that we as nations do not give it, and that is ONE power that it has NEVER had and NEVER will have.

The UN is about to self destruct with this ICC, as soon as an American citizen is brought before that court for ANY reason, the whole house of cards will come tumbling down. The UN is short of this world, because as soon as the US cuts off funding to that socialist/tyranical social club, it will fall apart at the seams and implode.

The UN pussy foots around any charges against Americans because they know this to be true. But once they get stupid enough to try it, SEE YA!! The UN will be toast, and the UN building in NewYork can become low income housing or something.

The sooner the better as far as I am concerned. The UN has gone WAY beyond it's charter, and as soon as it tries to push it's power on the nation of the U.S., it will cease to exist.

[ 05-04-2002, 16:10: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Israel became a nation when they declared themselves to be and beat off the Arabic nations that wished to destroy them, once Israel had proved itself militariy capable of keeping the territory it had, it then became a nation, whether the UN recognized it or not. Just as the US became a nation when we the people declared it as such. We were not recognized by many nations, but that did not make it a fact that we did not exist as a nation.

The UN has NO POWER that we as nations do not give it, and that is ONE power that it has NEVER had and NEVER will have.


Exactly right, the UN may be able to formally recognize a nation, but that is only RECOGNITION of what is already there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK. I'm dropping the Jenin issue for now.

Who wants to discuss the one on-topic issue that is yet to be settled (the Iron Wall)?

[ 05-04-2002, 22:02: Message edited by: Menchise ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest $iLk

quote:

"A diversity of cultures is important to the health of any vast society, otherwise it would socially and intellectually stagnate."

I completely and totally disagree with Multiculturalism. I believe in a strong nationalistic sense of pride in your country and it's heritage. If someone were to move here and try to change that culture, it has a negative effect on American culture - especially when people attempt to force a different culture on you because of feel-goodism.

If people want to move to America; learn to speak the language, and prepare to be assimilated into our culture. Don't try and change it - if you wish to practice your own culture, don't expect everyone to approve of it. If you want to, go ahead, but I'm not learning spanish just because you think it's "unfair" to learn English.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*sigh* Here I go again.

Cultural diversity, by definition, is not about replacing one culture with another.

It's about having many cultures that interact with each other, thus forming new ideas from the best of each and enriching the general social being.

Cultural hegemony, the assimilation of all cultures into one dominant culture, narrows the plain of thought and stagnates the general social being.

Language is much more than a method of communication: it's also the method of organizing the expression of thought. One of the reasons why English speaking people initially had great difficulty translating German was because Germans spoke dialectically. It was this method of communication that enabled great thinkers such as Hegel and Kant to develop new philosophical methodologies and ideas that weren't even imagined by other cultures.

While I agree that basic social cohesion demands that a standard communication method be in use on practical terms (since it takes years to learn a second language), it is also important not to discount the role of language in cultural interaction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Culture used to be synonymous with national identity. We thought of cultural exchanges as the Bolshoi Ballet, the Chinese pandas and acrobats, Italian opera, etc. Today, the meaning is different. Today, we mistake culture with ethnicity.

Multi-culturism is a code word for letting people of other countries export their lifestyles here, merely escaping the harsh existence of their homeland for a freer society. It ignores the fact that the freer society is freer for reasons that their culture lacked.

It really comes down to land. They want it. We have it. They are coming here to take it (and our politicians are letting them in for corrupted votes). When they bring their culture here, it is to usurp ours and replace it with theirs, not to assimilate ours into their lives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

$ilk, I don't believe what menchise was refering to was multiculturalism. I too disagree with MC. MC essentially says that every culture is completely distinct, and every effort must be made to preserve those distinctions. In a truly MC society, every immagrint would refuse to assimilate and would demand recognition as well as all out acceptance of thier diffrences and would make no effort to change. However MC seems radical in that sense which is why its implimentation would be dangerous. Also, MC in practice is almost impossible, for every human being is influenced by those around them, and contact with others who think diffrently then you will inevitably lead to changes in your thoughts or behaviours, it is INEVEITABLE.

There is a diffrence however between MC and simple respect for anothers culture. Without new ideas and viewpoints, there runs the danger of the "group-think" phenomena, whereby a people become so alike that they come to very similar conclusions, and thereby approch problems from a very similar and predictable manner. This is never good, especially in the international arena, where predicatablity of our thoughts and actions will only give those who may wish us harm an upperhand. For that reason we have both Liberal and Conservative politicians, for if one or the other dominated, then our country's course would be very one-sided and dangerously unbalanced.

[ 05-05-2002, 05:53: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heh, you guys really need to look at your history.

To boil down tons of complex history into a couple of paragraphs is impossible, but I will do it anyway.

No the UN did not fight for Israel. The Israeli's did that. But even an Israeli will admit that the UN recognition was seminal point in their history. The only point I'm making is that it is ridiculous to think that the UN hates Israel. Or that somehow the UN has a vendetta against Israel. The UN was instrumental in Israel's creation. Israel is a member of the UN.

Furthermore, using the 'UN hates us, so therefore we won't let them into Jenin.' just makes you look guilty. It makes you look like you're hiding something. Personally I'm not saying there is something to hide. I am perfectly willing to accept that only 40 or 50 or 60 soldiers were killed. Fine. But where's the proof? Where's the hard evidence.

The UN has a long history of dealing with massacres. The UN has it's flaws, but fact finding is not one of them. I say let the UN do it's job and the truth will speak for itself.

Oh and here in Canada we've had Multiculturalism as an official govt policy. You can still be Canadian. It's not a big deal.

[ 05-05-2002, 08:51: Message edited by: Kush ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kush... I don't trust much of anything the media says anymore, but usually there is some basis of truth in it and if I read enough stories I might just be able to find that little shred of truth.

Oh... BTW in the past fifty some odd years since its founding, the UN has been an almost total failure. It as of yet has failed to prevent war, and without the help of the US or others, it basically cannot even enforce its dictates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

And Canada is so socially, monetarily, and culturally bankrupt that it's downright scary.

Talk about a socialist paradise, too bad they are broke as well and continue to raise taxes.

I got an advertisement yesterday, you're highly skilled, come live in Canada!! They are desperate because they have taxed the brains right our of Canada. the people that made the money and supported all these socialist engineering have left, they have moved south, along with a majority of your doctors.

Don't use Canada as an example, because Canada is so F'd up it's unreal.

Just as the UN is F'd up as badly. You go ahead and trust the UN, but I trust Kofi what his face about as far as I can throw him.

This love affair with the UN will end after they decide that Canada doesn't do enough for a certain people and decides to fine canada for something stupid. Will be fun to watch, The UN is too big for it's bridges, I will enjoy watching it self destruct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off I NEVER said the UN was perfect. I know it's got problems. But there are also things that the UN does very well. Don't get me started on what I think is wrong with the UN, we'll be here all night.

And Jaguar...

I know you've got a gift for hyperbole, but watch the way you slag my country alright. You're a proud American, I'm a proud Canadian. I don't go on a tear talking about how America is morally bankrupt, and f*ed up, and I'd appreciate keeping the rhetoric civil. Canada has it's problems, I know. But I love this country and would defend it with my life.

I know you don't mean any serious harm, but keep an eye on the rhetoric okay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×