You Won the Battle, But Lost The War

[Epsilon 5]

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They are god given rights

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What prophet told people that everyone has the right to carry a gun?

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You'll find if you took the same money spent on the war on drugs and applied that to keeping illegal arms out only very well financed criminals would be able to have any real weapons. These people would then in turn commit crimes that are well thought out and probably limit civilian casualties. They will not go crazy and start blasting their co works.

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Well said. That's pretty much the situation here. I remember the stuff the police showed they got from the criminalised biker gangs... they have tons of guns... m4 assault rifles, uzis, all kinds of pistols, explosives... but few civillians got killed, and they were mostly mistakes. (except for that journalist, which almost died)

[Lotharr]

Grayfox...good point...but I have feet that will carry me like the wind

Thanks EP5....yeah just reinforces my point.

[ 05-14-2002, 19:36: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

[Guest]

EP5 and Lotharr,

You are both very naive as far as I am concerned.

If you take away guns, then ONLY criminals will have guns and then they have free reign to terrorize a helpless population.

Look at Australia and England and you will see EXACTLY what I mean.

There are MANY MANY more responsible gun owners then there are irresponsible gun owners. Look at the statistics I gave you as far as accidental deaths with firearms are concerned.

You have no faith in your fellow citizens, I find that sad, but I would much rather have a citizen behind me that carries a weapon to protect himself, then some whimp victim who will roll over and die when confronted by a criminal.

Since I have a gun, I am protecting far more then myself and my family, I also am protecting those around me, and 100% of those are NOT EVEN AWARE that I have a gun. To take that right away from me, would make the government Ultimately responsible for my safety, and if you are willing to trust the government with your life, be my guest, but I am not.

So basically, enjoy your serfdom, I will choose to be a free man. I am responsible for myself, my safety and that of my family and of my actions, no one else.

If you wish to take my guns, then I will hold you personally responsible for my safety, and that of my family, if my wife is raped or murdered because some nut got into my house and got her because I could not defend her, because YOU and YOUR friends took my guns, then I will HOLD YOU PERSONALLY responsible for it.

That's the bottom line, YOU WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR ME AND MY FAMILIES SAFETY.

Are you willing to take that responsibility?

[Lotharr]

No real criminal has any interest in your family. Just nut jobs and bare hands is a much more satisfying way to deal with those.

Do what ever you want...feel how you want to feel...express your feelings...that's what the Constitution is all about.

But don't allow your weapon to fall into the hands of anyone that would hurt my MY KID or I WILL HOLD YOU PERSONNALLY RESPONSIBLE...and I study martial arts you know....

And the police force is now buying military hardware...so you could say I feel over safe.

[Lotharr]

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Go back to an old thread (I believe it was Knife Control) where I posted at length from the Federalist Papers.

The militia was a term of art used to describe ordinary people who were called on to protect the region in times of trouble. The Founding Fathers discussed at length the difference between the militia and a standing army. It is clear from their writings that they are referring to ordinary citizens with arms who defend their property when no other help is available.

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This is the only point I would be willing to consider (I think) in why people should keep weapons. But once again different time and tech. I think I will go back and take a look.

I just talked with my commanding officer today about this. He said he thought amendment two was about being able to raise a citizen army if threatened from abroad. I can respect this but not agree. One of his first memories with his G-Pa is learning how to shoot with a .22 rifle. ( Much like my father and me. But we threw knives and later we shot). . . However I cannot put these warm memories in front of the picture of dead school kids and not see the bodies.

[Epsilon 5]

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Look at Australia and England and you will see EXACTLY what I mean.

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What is to see?

[Põdi]

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I on the other hand am VERY proud of this countries history and heritage, sure, we did some things that may not have been real nice, Indians, slavery etc, but the fact is that those things were OK then, just because they are not OK now, does not mean that we should be ashamed of them. Learn from them and move on.

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That's horsesh*t and you know it. Slavery and genocide have NEVER been a good thing, not now or 200 years ago.

With regards to Australia nd the US and firearms, I have access to UK news 24/7 and I can't remember the last time a death from shooting was reported. It's just not in our culture and never has been.

I've stated this before, the fact that legitimate firearms are so freely available in the US means that there are more firearms in the system, which in turn means there are more available to the criminal. Simple common sense. Having said that, when was the last time a known criminal burst into a school / office / factory / restaurant and opened fire? The criminals are not the ones who you should be afraid of, it's the slightly unhinged neighbour, the bullied or persecuted student, the jilted lover, the dismissed and disgraced employee. Those are the people who you should be afraid of and chances are they are the 'citizens' who have a perfectly legal right to own firearms under the 2nd Amendment. Like is stated so many times in the various debates on socialism v capitalism, socialism won't work because of 'human nature'. For that same reason there will always be unhinged individuals who flip out and go on a shooting spree. Flipping out is a part of human nature, unfotunately. You cannot predict it, you cannot prevent it, you cannot legislate against it, but what you can do is restrict their access to a firearm by restricting everyone's access to a firearm. Yes, they could flip out with a knife, but how many people would they mange to kill before a several brave individuals overpowered them? Not so easy if they're carrying a firearm, is it? OK, you might say that if a teacher or security guard had a gun, it wouldn't have happened. Look at Erfurt in Germany, one of Robert Steinhäuser's first victims was an armed Police officer. What good did his gun do for him? The fact is, it should have never come to the point where armed teachers and security guards are required, it is indeed a sad reflection on your country that it is so. The sooner people realise that the 2nd amendmant is outdated and does not reflect current technology and attitudes, the better.

[Guest]

I am so glad that you guys are not in government.

Let me put this in another light, shall I?

You are a member of a large family, say one of 10 kids. You're middle brother is a bit of a whack job, but the rest of you are normal, responsible children.

So, your brother goes outside and yanks down all your mothers laundry off the line, but instead of him being reponsible for his actions, and therefore punished, you all are punished for his irresponsible and stupid actions.

Your brother goes out and wrecks the car, but instead of him being held responsible for his actions and being punished, YOU ALL are punished for his actions and your parents take away your driver licenses.

Or better yet, your brother goes out and kills someone in a drunk driving accident, but instead of him being held responsible for his actions and being punished, you all are sent to jail for his actions. YOU ARE HELD RESPONSIBLE AND PUNISHED for his stupidity and irresponsibility.

Same thing with gun control, 99.99% of gun owners are responsible gun owners, we lock up our guns and keep them out of the hands of children, we teach our children gun safety and responsibility, but because of that .01%, we are all punished for that persons irresponsibility and stupidity.

You are NOT punished for your brothers or fellow citizens actions, why should I be? Why should responsible gun owners, who are a VAST majority, be punished due to the actions of a VERY small minority? Doesn't exactly sound fair to me.

But again, guns just go off and kill people all by themselves don't they. Guns are BAD, and therefore the people that own them are bad too, right?

You guys have been brainwashed by those who wish power over you, and have fallen into that trap of "the government will take care of you, and we are here to help." They are not here to help, they are here to control you. Have fun being controlled.

You have chosen to allow the government to be responsible for you, you are like children looking to your parents for support. The government is supposed to take care of you from cradle to grave, keep you safe, keep you secure, make sure that you have the means to live, make sure that you have insurance, make sure that you have a decent place to live, etc, etc, what's next, you gonna hand them your kids to raise? Oh yeah, you do that already, ain't public school great?

You have given your lives over to the socialist and government people that are just so happy to take that responsibility from you. SAD, VERY SAD.

I choose to be responsible for myself, I am responsible for my housing, for the money I make, for my OWN health insurance, for my OWN SAFETY.

You are little children to be told who what when where and how, and for some reason you really like it. It's easy to let someone else be responsible, it's easy to allow someone else to tell you what and how you are going to do things. It's SO easy to NOT be responsible for your actions.

It is HARD to be responsible for your own life, to look at yourself and say I got myself here. It is hard to say, "I am not a victim, I am an adult, I am a free citizen, I am responsible for my actions, I am responsible for the education of my children, I am responsible for the safety of myself and my family, I am responsible for the roof over my head and to keep food on the table."

This is freedom, to be responsible for yourself and your family, to be responsible for your actions. THIS IS FREEDOM.

YES, it's hard!! That is why it is so easy to give Those responsibilities to the government, and you all have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. You are not free citizens, you are Serfs, slaves. Because if you don't do what they want, they will punish you by taking those things that they "GIVE" you away.

You are controlled, and you LIKE it, I find that disturbing and very sad.

But remember this, it is not just MONEY through taxation that you are giving away to the government to take care of you, because they have to have money in order to take care of you,right? They also take your freedom, and you have slowly allowed them to do just that. You are not free if you allow the government to be responsible for you.

Myself, I choose to be responsible for myself and my family. I CHOOSE TO BE FREE It is very obvious what you have chosen.

You may ask, what the hell does that have to do with Gun Control? Answer: EVERYTHING!! Because once the government is responsible for your safety, and you are beholden on it to keep you safe, the rest of it comes real easy. Gun Control is one of the first steps, look at Nazi Germany before WWII.

Gun Control was a NAZI trick and it worked well, after they disarmed the Jews, well you know what happened after they disarmed the Jews. Ain't Gun Control GREAT!!!

[ 05-15-2002, 11:25: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[Lotharr]

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I am so glad that you guys are not in government.

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Right back at you.

And as far as everyone being punished for the actions of the few. Yep....that's the sad truth. Not everyone has a gun but everyone has a car. We see the abuse of the automobile in a different light as the abuse of firearms and that is just the way it is.

I personally think that we, as a society, should switch to mass transit but that just wouldn't be American would it? No one wants to surrender their SUV because they NEED it to haul a cafe' mocha from home to work.

The same people that shouldn't own a blender have a car and it is scary and it kills. But we take the body count as acceptable loses...don't ask me why I think it is jacked up.

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You are little children to be told who what when where and how, and for some reason you really like it. It's easy to let someone else be responsible, it's easy to allow someone else to tell you what and how you are going to do things. It's SO easy to NOT be responsible for your actions.

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You are a little child who sits in the corner of the room with his toys and hits anyone that tries to take it. In this context you are a child because one day.....to use your analogy....dad is going to realize what your playing with and take it away.

I would prefer we keep this from becoming insulting but you are the moderator here and you set the standards of conduct. I believe in keeping insults out of a real discussion but I will meet any standard you set.

[Guest]

LOL,

OK, the fact is that you are allowing government to take away your freedoms because you do not wish to be responsible for your actions.

Sure take my guns, you think that is best, OK. I don't think so.

Sorry, I am a responsible adult with freedoms, and one of those freedoms is having a firearm to defend myself. If that firearm is misused, I am responsible That is the difference between you and I. I agree to be responsible for my actions, you would rather have that resposiblity taken from you.

I choose to be free, you choose to be a serf, or a slave. That is the difference, and if you can't see that, it is because you indeed have allowed them to indoctrinate you into that thinking.

Our founding fathers are feeling very sad for us right now, because I know that I do. The constitution was designed for people who wanted to be free, who wanted to be responsble for their actions. With freedom comes responsibility, without responsiblity, there is NO freedom.

[Steve Schacher]

Slavery is a red-herring issue.

Sure, we had slavery here, but it was the Europeans (mostly Dutch and Portuguese shippers) who brought them here. And, slavery began when we were still an English colony.

Many hands are dirty over slavery.

[Guest]

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You are a little child who sits in the corner of the room with his toys and hits anyone that tries to take it. In this context you are a child because one day.....to use your analogy....dad is going to realize what your playing with and take it away.

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And who exactly in your eyes is DAD? Never mind, I already know, and it disgusts me, sorry, but it really does. It is sad, VERY sad.

Have fun with Daddy, who is responsible for you, because Dad's are. I am responsible for myself, I am a free citizen, I AM RESPONSIBLE. NOT DAD.

Thank you for proving my point for me.

[Lotharr]

I never said that you personally were not responsible. In fact I bet the way you handle your guns would be a prime example of how one should take care of their weapons. It's the rest of (to quote Dragon Lady and others) the mob....your fellow citizens that are going to ruin it for you. They already are...Joe Slob has a gun and won't put it away properly....and because joe slob doesn't give a damn about his kids, joe slob jr. will find that weapon and put it to what he thinks is good use.

And I'm sorry that you are so paranoid about the government....I have my moments and people look at me strange..but guy....I just don't know what to tell you.

[ 05-15-2002, 13:06: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

[Guest]

I am not paranoid, I just know what the constitution says, it lays out the proper role of government in a very succinct way.

The constitution is now ignored, the patriot act, and this stupid campaign finance reform are just 2 BLATANT examples.

You are not paranoid if they are ACTUALLY out to get you. lol

[Lotharr]

Heh heh that's a good point ....just that last one....

[ 05-15-2002, 15:48: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

[CommanderJohnson]

Gun trol is such a simple issue. If someone is trying to kill me or rob me with any type of weapon, (they may even have a gun, since criminals dont CARE about laws against guns) I expect to be able to have the same type of weapon to defend myself. You may not think that's the best way to protect YOURSELF, but don't tell me I can't carry a gun to shoot some bastard trying to hurt myself, my family, or my friends. I bet you'd change your mind about gun control if someone obtained an illegal firearm and shot a bunch of your friends dead and you could have stopped it, had you been carrying a gun.

[Lotharr]

If the only way to get a hold of a weapon were through having access to enormous amounts of time, money, contacts, and nerves....why would these people want to waste bullets on your friends?

In this reality I bet the statistics would talk about having more luck getting struck by lightning etc etc.....

But today....how would you feel about sending your kid through public school (that is or course if you care about the public in the first place)? And let me ask you something.....do you think you really know all your co-workers? And further, I don't know what ethnicity you are and I don't want too....but does it make you feel safe having groups of paranoid supremacist groups running around cleaning assault rifles and talking about a brave new world?

Ever feel like your about to get ranted at heh heh....

[Guest Grayfox]

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Originally posted by Lotharr:

But today....how would you feel about sending your kid through public school (that is or course if you care about the public in the first place)?

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do you have children??? if you do do YOU send them through public school??? or do you send them thru private/ homeschool?

i have a child, and i cant afford private schooling. its just someone with my level of income has to deal with. i voice my displeasure (oh boy do i) in the local public school system at every city council meeting i can attend...

do they listen... probably not.

any matter, i own 2 weapons. does my son have access to them??? nope. not until i determine hes ready to learn about gun safety and the responsibility that comes with it. its strange trying to explain to a 5 year old about gun safety... so ill wait until he can understand a bit more... but what do i tell him now??? that guns are bad???, or only bad people use guns to hurt other people??? then how would i explain that i have one to protect other people where i work???

its a tricky situation as it is... its even trickier when children are involved.

[Guest]

It's not tricky for me at all.

I told my daughter that if she sees a gun in the open that she is to get away from the gun and tell an adult.

If she sees a child with a gun, she is to "run" not walk and go tell an adult.

I tell her that a gun is a tool that can be used in a bad and irresponsible fashion, just as a car, or a chainsaw or a knife.

To have a gun is to have a HUGE responsibility, so that you do not hurt the ones you love, yet have the power to protect them.

A gun is a tool, just like any other tool, only it is made for self defense, it is designed to KILL, and she must realize that as well. And she does, but then again, she is a VERY intelligent 6 year old.

[Lotharr]

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do you have children??? if you do do YOU send them through public school??? or do you send them thru private/ homeschool?

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No...one day maybe but not right now.

I would send them to private or home schooling if I could...public school is an unsafe joke if you want your kids to have strong academic background before college...depending on where you live. If you live in a rich neighborhood you just hope your kid doesn't become a beer swilling, date rapin, jock scumbag, yuppie puke....not that there is anything wrong with beer swilling....heh heh....no but really.....I just don't think hanging out with a bunch of over privileged kids is all that healthy.

On the other hand lower income area's teach a sort of brutal racial segregation type of thing....I went to school in both kinds of places and I'll tell you I have more respect for the lower income personnel...they have guts and honesty....however they tend to pack weapons and I don't want my kid takin a bullet because someone disted some else's colors.....

And on either side of the house you have to worry about that young person who has been so tormented by his peers and neglected by his family that he ambushes the school with a high-powered rifle one fine spring morning.

I think I'll move to Canada to let the kids grow up....

I never said demonize weapons...your job makes it practical and necessary to carry firearms....no one is saying having a weapon makes you bad. I have two myself. My real point is you can't fight the government with conventional weapons and people are too irresponsible to manage this freedom properly. Unless you consider those dead kids acceptable losses….it is just the “mob” right……

[Guest]

Lothar,

You have been brainwashed BIG time, you either went to public school, or your parents were democrats, can't decide which, or maybe it's both.

To say that people cannot be trusted with freedom and the right to self defense is racist as far as I am concerned.

ALL gunowners are like that, uh, huh, yeah right sure thing.

Sorry stud, but to be punished for the actions of .001% of the population is just plain ridiculous. You hear about it a lot because the media likes to make a big deal out of it. Maybe we should outlaw chainsaws, because you can cut an arm off or kill someone with it, maybe we ought to register ALL knives, those are deadly and are used just as often in killing and robberies as guns. Maybe we should outlaw backyard plastic pools, more chidren drown in those in a year, then get shot with a gun in a decade.

What else shall I protect my fellow citizens from? What other thing can citizens NOT be trusted with. And what tyrant put you in charge and told you that it is your job to protect people from themselves?

Sad Lothar, REALLY sad!!!

I am responsible for my actions, if I hurt you due to irresponsibility, then I should be punished, not those that use those tools responsibly. Just sad to see the young being so taken with socialism and social control.

I'm the government and I am here to help, UNREAL!!

It should say, I'm from the government and I am here to control you and keep you safe despite yourself.

READ THE CONSTITUTION!!! Because You're NOT getting it!!

With freedom comes responsibility, without responsibility, there is NO FREEDOM!!!

[ 05-21-2002, 15:53: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[Guest Grayfox]

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Originally posted by Lotharr:

I would send them to private or home schooling if I could...public school is an unsafe joke if you want your kids to have strong academic background before college...depending on where you live.

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see, i cant afford to send them to private school. i live in a good neighborhood, but unfortunately, my job doesnt pay well enough for me to send him. and to get a better job here, i need college ed. which is incredibly tough when your raising a kid by yourself.

so until then im forced to suck it up. i just need to be mindful of his feelings, and how he reacts to certain things.

[ 05-21-2002, 17:00: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

[CommanderJohnson]

I agree with Lotharr about the different schools=different lives, as i've been through both. Being stuck with a bunch of overprivilaged sheep whose parents run their lives and then the kids eventually rebel by hurting themselves (drugs, drinking, etc) is bad. Of course, going to a public school where the actual education opportunities are worse and there is more danger to personal well-being and a bunch of underpaid teachers and administrators around isn't much better.

As for gun control, Jaguar is right. I can take my car and plow down just about anyone I want that walks outside, and they'd be dead. Hell, i'd maintain that cars are more dangerous than guns because where I live, (1) kids can drive cars at 16, and (2) people can't really run very effectively from a car. At least if someone has a gun, you can SEE it when they have it and you MIGHT live through a hit, and you can hit the ground, run, take cover, or pull out a gun. A car, on the other hand, you don't necessarily see the person coming as easily, you aren't going to be able to dodge it by running, and if it hits you fast enough your dead. Then on the driving issue, cars kill a lot of people too in irresponsible hands. It kills the driver, passengers, people in other cars. Why shouldn't CARS be outlawed? The "accidental death" argument is the WEAKEST IN EXISTANCE for gun control. So why not get rid EVERYTHING that is misused. Lets get rid of household cleaners cause they can be used to make BOMBS. Lets get rid of shoes because you can hide bombs in them. If people who advocate strong gun control take their logic to its conclusion, we would have the same sort of sanctions on ourselves that the UN has on Iraq.

[Lotharr]

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To say that people cannot be trusted with freedom and the right to self defense is racist as far as I am concerned.

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Funny I find everyone equally worthless....heh heh...no but really I just don't know what to say to that....

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Sorry stud, but to be punished for the actions of .001% of the population is just plain ridiculous. You hear about it a lot because the media likes to make a big deal out of it. Maybe we should outlaw chainsaws, because you can cut an arm off or kill someone with it, maybe we ought to register ALL knives, those are deadly and are used just as often in killing and robberies as guns. Maybe we should outlaw backyard plastic pools, more children drown in those in a year, then get shot with a gun in a decade

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I wonder why anyone would make a big deal outta little thing like kids killing kids.....damn media.

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What else shall I protect my fellow citizens from? What other thing can citizens NOT be trusted with. And what tyrant put you in charge and told you that it is your job to protect people from themselves?

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Hey guy, I'm not in charge of but two things...jack and sh*t....and Jack left town....just talking ....show me in that document you claim to value so highly where that is such a crime.

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READ THE CONSTITUTION!!! Because You're NOT getting it!!

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Gimme some time.....you referred me to other literature so I guess there is more to it.

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As for gun control, Jaguar is right. I can take my car and plow down just about anyone I want that walks outside, and they'd be dead. Hell, i'd maintain that cars are more dangerous than guns because where I live, (1) kids can drive cars at 16, and (2) people can't really run very effectively from a car. At least if someone has a gun, you can SEE it when they have it and you MIGHT live through a hit, and you can hit the ground, run, take cover, or pull out a gun. A car, on the other hand, you don't necessarily see the person coming as easily, you aren't going to be able to dodge it by running, and if it hits you fast enough your dead. Then on the driving issue, cars kill a lot of people too in irresponsible hands. It kills the driver, passengers, people in other cars. Why shouldn't CARS be outlawed? The "accidental death" argument is the WEAKEST IN EXISTANCE for gun control. So why not get rid EVERYTHING that is misused. Lets get rid of household cleaners cause they can be used to make BOMBS. Lets get rid of shoes because you can hide bombs in them. If people who advocate strong gun control take their logic to its conclusion, we would have the same sort of sanctions on ourselves that the UN has on Iraq.

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What are you talking about!!! Hee hee your fun.

accidental death--what are you talking about?

The rest is well....what are you talking about?

[CommanderJohnson]

My rant was when I was half asleep. Put simply, you can't ban everything that can be misused.