Mysteries of the Bible

[Guest]

I would absolutely LOVE to get involved in this debate, but I am Pagan, so I keep my opinions and history to myself when it comes to the bible and Christianity.

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, so I know quite a bit about it, and I have of course studied history, so the historical context is absolutely fascinating. Again, it would be fun, but when it comes to religion, I don't like to upset people.

Politics on the other hand!! LOL

[Raven]

Well Kiran, I think it's demonstrable that the bible (especially the old testament) is nothing I would call a remotely accurate document. I don't means simply from the perspective that I'm an atheist, but rather that it is unlikely that any story could survive everything it went though with anything but the core truth intact (if that), and in the process it would be distended way out of proportion. This leads me to wonder how you can believe what can so easily be shown as misinformation?

Now, as for DraconisRex, I'm a little curious about your explanation of Atlantis (which, by the way, is an interesting bit of speculation, but not one I'm willing to accept at this point). What were you trying to get at with it?

I'm not aware of any solid evidence that suggests the existence of Atlantis, and therefore I would be a little more careful using Atlantis as an explanation for the unknown. It's very easy to wave a magic want, say Atlantis, and have an explanation, but that's not the best idea. The problem, however, is that this leads to links that may very easily be inaccurate, and results in assumptions of the highest order. By joining Atlantis and Egypt, for example, you explain the battery and the facing of the pyramids, but you also necessitate the existence of Atlantis.

Now, my last question for this morning is why do you believe in god? You have demonstrably proven that the bible (considered by most to be an infallible document) is riddled with inaccuracies to the point it's nearly worthless (and certainly not to be trusted at face value). The bible, however, is the only real evidence that suggests god exists (all other evidence that is used is proving that the bible is indeed accurate on one or two points, on the logic that it must then be accurate on the rest of the points). It, along with the lovely, generous, wise, and holy Christian church(s) are all that exist to claim the Christian religion to be true (or at least that there take on it is the right one), and I don't think that the church (any of them) is a body I would want to trust (after all, look at there idea of science).

[DraconisRex]

I don't feel that anyone on Earth, or even beyond for that matter, is truly qualified to say that their religion is the only one that's real.

Someone hand me evidence (that makes sense) that the entirety of the Old Testament is absolutely correct, and I'll still shatter that dream you're trying to make.

Unless you, personally, are qualified to say what God did or did not do, you are in no position to tell anyone that your religion is better than their's. I'm sure glad I backed out of becoming a Southern Baptist preacher, because I could not, and would not, practice intolerance at that level.

The New Testament is about love and God, and his Son. But, what made me turn my back on the church (not from God), was the sheer number of church-goers that would stand on street corners with bull-horns screaming, "You're going to hell!" They can if they wish, but Jesus told me to pray to God in a closet, and spread the Gospel to those who would listen.

Following His teachings, I have often stopped and asked those loud speakers to show me, in scripture by verse, where they were instructed by God to force His word down people's throats -- I've not received one single answer.

We know not whom God will use to further His glory, nor do we know what rewards may await them in Heaven, be they Jewish, Christian, Gentile, or Pagan. The Jews are the chosen people of God, and they must follow His word. Because of the decision by most Jews to follow a God-with-no-Son path, this blessing is now a curse..... (Read the daily news should you have doubts...) But, Jesus openned Heaven up to the Gentiles, and gave them the choice -- which is why I don't think God only made Jews in the beginning -- Gentiles are different.

[Andergum]

god is gravity.

without it there would be chaos

no galaxies

no stars

no planets

no nothing....

[Charles Lindsey]

Atlantis. Already a legend of a legend when written down by Plato or Socrates.

The column of smoke during the day was also a pillar of fire at night no? Sounds like a volcano to me. I seem to remember another Discovery channel show or PBS hypothesizing that and possibly finding evidence. Now then, a skeptic would probably say "How Fortunate they saw it just then and incoprorated that into there myth" and they would be right. It was fortunate. It might have been a natural phenomenom but that doesn't mean God didn't make it happen just at that moment.

What bothers me now is why they wandered forty years. I sort of remember the reason (broke some commandment or insulted God or something) but how in the devil do you stay lost for 40 yrs? Even without a compass you could walk away from the sun in the morning, take a break, then walk towards it in evening and eventually get somewhere.

The three great pyramids represent and are in line (or were at the time) with the three stars in Orions Belt. Other pyramids found around the area represent the four other bright stars that represent his two shoulders and his two knees. Very interesting. It is a HUGE area and almost represents a scale model of the constellation Orion. But why?

The Flood. Yes there is evidence of a flood but it would be cool if were THE flood we are talking aobut.

Ice Age. Wooly Mammoths could have existed as little as ten thousand years ago but were very stunted due to lack of food and isolationism for some odd reason I can't remember. Discovery Channel again.

So far as we haven't had enough time to eveolve to point we have I feel you are discounting genius. There have been several geniuses "recently" that were above and beyond what normal men are. So why not a cave man genius? Maybe he decided to domesticate animals or see what would happen if he took seeds from a plant and put them where he wanted it thus inventing agriculture.

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

but I am Pagan,

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So you dance naked in the woods? Now there a scary thought.

Andergum:

God is Gravity. Hehe, that's pretty good.

It's had time to rattle around so here are some other questions.

Jonah getting swallowed by the "whale" and being disgorged three days later unharmed?

Lot's wife turning into a pillar of salt while fleeing Soddom and Gomhorra?

The walls of Jericho brought down by trumpets?

Biblical numerology? The significance of numbers in the bible. Why so many three's, seven's, and forty's?

Parting of the Red Sea? Possible tsunami?

That's it for now maybe something else will rattle out.

P.S. feel free to correct any misspellings.

[DraconisRex]

Actually, if you look closely at the New Testament, the number 14 is very important also. Is that just 7 times 2, or is there some more important reason we're missing?

[Andergum]

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

[QB]I would absolutely LOVE to get involved in this debate, but I am Pagan, so I keep my opinions and history to myself when it comes to the bible and Christianity.QB]

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Cool! My brother is a Pagan Priest.

Myself, I'm agnostic. I don't beleive anyone really knows(would explain all the mysteries huh) but I like to think about it.

[d8alus]

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Christ is in the New Testament, which verifies the prophecies of His coming. The New Testament is not history, but fact. The New Testament has been been declared sacreligious by the Jews, who are its intended people. They follow only the Old Testament.

I forsake them for this, and can safely (as a Gentile) ignore the precepts (the Old Testament) they have set. I follow the Gospel, or Good News, of Christ, not the old news of the Old Testament. If God said it or did it, I abide. Otherwise, you can take Mosaic law (which I will not follow, and neither will the current Jews) and find something to do with it.

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That's interesting...

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Matthew 5

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

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As for reincarnation and John the Baptist, I assume you are refering to Elijah...

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2 Kings 2

1 Now when the LORD was about to take Eli'jah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Eli'jah and Eli'sha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 And Eli'jah said to Eli'sha, "Tarry here, I pray you; for the LORD has sent me as far as Bethel." But Eli'sha said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel. 3 And the sons of the prophets who were in Bethel came out to Eli'sha, and said to him, "Do you know that today the LORD will take away your master from over you?" And he said, "Yes, I know it; hold your peace." 4 Eli'jah said to him, "Eli'sha, tarry here, I pray you; for the LORD has sent me to Jericho." But he said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So they came to Jericho. 5 The sons of the prophets who were at Jericho drew near to Eli'sha, and said to him, "Do you know that today the LORD will take away your master from over you?" And he answered, "Yes, I know it; hold your peace." 6 Then Eli'jah said to him, "Tarry here, I pray you; for the LORD has sent me to the Jordan." But he said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So the two of them went on. 7 Fifty men of the sons of the prophets also went, and stood at some distance from them, as they both were standing by the Jordan. 8 Then Eli'jah took his mantle, and rolled it up, and struck the water, and the water was parted to the one side and to the other, till the two of them could go over on dry ground. 9 When they had crossed, Eli'jah said to Eli'sha, "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Eli'sha said, "I pray you, let me inherit a double share of your spirit." 10 And he said, "You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if you do not see me, it shall not be so." 11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Malachi 4

5 "Behold, I will send you Eli'jah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes."

Matthew 11

10 This is he of whom it is written, 'Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.' 11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and men of violence take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John; 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Eli'jah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 17

1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli'jah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah." 5 He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him." 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces, and were filled with awe. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, "Rise, and have no fear." 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. 9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead." 10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Eli'jah must come?" 11 He replied, "Eli'jah does come, and he is to restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Eli'jah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

John 1

19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No." 22 They said to him then, "Who are you? Let us have an answer for those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?" 23 He said, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said."

Luke 1

13 But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zechari'ah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth; 15 for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 16 And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, 17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Eli'jah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared."

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John was not the literal reincarnation of Elijah, he was a prophet of the same power and function of Elijah.

[ 12-11-2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Kiran ]

[DraconisRex]

So Jesus was the prophecy about which pre-exisitng person?

[d8alus]

I beg your pardon? The only thing I can remotely think of is Adam. But that's not reincarnation that's analogy. Just as Adam was the first man, Christ was the first man to enter the kingdom of heaven under the new covenant.

[Guest]

Do you guys have any idea how hard it is for me to stay out of this debate? Any idea at all?

Man, it would just be too much fun.

Ahh well, Carry on....

[d8alus]

Feel free to jump in, Jags, just keep the gloves on. I'm not gonna get upset if you try to disprove my faith. I spent 4 years in the infantry as an outspoken Christian...I've pretty much heard it all.

[Raven]

Yes Jag, jump right in, after all that's what I did.

[DraconisRex]

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Originally posted by Kiran:

I beg your pardon? The only thing I can remotely think of is Adam. But that's not reincarnation that's analogy. Just as Adam was the first man, Christ was the first man to enter the kingdom of heaven under the new covenant.

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Very good, but since I don't happen to have a copy of the books the Council of Neece kicked out on at least three seperate occasions, I'm not qualified to say what those scrolls said. What I do know is that the Bible clearly said:

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10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Eli'jah must come?" 11 He replied, "Eli'jah does come, and he is to restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Eli'jah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

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I believe the New Testament to be absolutely true -- if it said it, it must be true. You're going to try to convince me that John the Baptist wasn't the same spirit as Eli'jah, right? On what are you basing this assertion? Before you answer, read this From Luke 9:

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16 Then he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude. 17 And they did eat, and were all filled: and there was taken up of fragments that remained to them twelve baskets. 18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? 19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

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"Risen again." Why would they say that without some type of Biblical qualification? Why would a phophet rise again? That statement I have questioned for all my life, simply because it is written, and therefore must be true.

Another question -- why are taught to use the term "reborn," since it is not in the Bible at all? "Born again," on the other hand, is use three times in the Bible: John 3:3 and 3:7, and Peter 1:23, but not at all in even hint form in the Old Testament.

Now, my use of the English language means that one must die at some point to be born again. (I know it means asking Jesus into your life, but non-believers can not understand the difference between "born again" and "reincarnation." My whole point for this argument is to see if anyone can come up with a plausable reason for the use of this particular phrase -- remember, we do not know what Jesus did from the time He was 12 and 30, which means we do not know his full background, beyond the printed word.)

[d8alus]

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Well Kiran, I think it's demonstrable that the bible (especially the old testament) is nothing I would call a remotely accurate document. I don't means simply from the perspective that I'm an atheist, but rather that it is unlikely that any story could survive everything it went though with anything but the core truth intact (if that), and in the process it would be distended way out of proportion. This leads me to wonder how you can believe what can so easily be shown as misinformation?

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That's where faith kicks in. I've had a lot of personal experiences that point to a God. I've had more that lead me to believe that the God of the Bible is that God. So, either God exists and is the God of Jacob and Abraham, or I'm extremely lucky. And since I don't believe in luck...

As I've said....IF you believe in God, and IF you believe He is all-powerful, how can you possibly believe that He wouldn't ensure that His word stayed intact. Again, that's only if you believe to begin with. Since you are an atheist...there's not much I can do to prove otherwise. There's more to Christianity than reading and believing the bible.

[d8alus]

Well, if you believe the old testament, Elijah technically never died...he just went to Heaven. (weak I know but I don't wanna research anymore tonight)

[d8alus]

And John himself denied being Elijah. (now I know I'm tired, I forget everything I wanna say...I think it's bedtime.)

[DraconisRex]

Feel free to jump in, Jag -- the argument, uhm, discussion, is about mysteries of the Bible. I'm not going to argue with the New Testament, because that was the gospel, or "Good News." Mosaic law was partially over-ruled by this Testament, and that was part of the good news...

Languages and translational differences make the entire discussion interesting, don't you think? For example (thanks, Ms. Dragon!), Amen comes from Amen-Ra, which is very cute considering it was used by ex-slaves of the Egyptian Empire. Amen means "So Be It", and Amen-Ra means Hidden King of the Gods. Either way, it begs questions of specific origin, since the One God was also hidden... Maybe coincidence, but....

[Raven]

Well, it's hard to argue with faith, not much you can say will change it (kind of like a brick wall in that respect, but I shan't go there).

Here is an interesting little paradox though. If, as you suggest there is no such thing as luck, which basically means there is no such thing as random, then there are a few interesting implications. Denying a random factor means that there is no such thing as free will (I'll give you a detailed explanation if you like).

This, in turn, means that every future event can be determined by the current state of the universe (of course absolute knowledge would be necessary for an accurate prediction) as there would be nothing left to chance. Thus an all knowing and all powerful entity who designed things to exist exactly how they are (and thus intended for everything to happened in the exact manner that it has) would bear complete responsibility for all events, natural and man made, that happened from the beginning of time until the end. Rather a heavy burden for anyone to carry on there conscience, even a god.

Now, as for Amen-Ra, DraconisRex is correct, it means hidden king of the gods (or something of that sort). The origin of this is the fact that Amen is a sun god, and spends a good half of the time out of sight.

[Guest]

Just for fun, I will toss this little tidbit in here.

Where did the bible come from? Draconis answered that a little bit.

Who created it and why?

I can answer that quickly and easily.

It was created by men, so that they would have power over other men.

Bottom line, end of story

[Guest Remo Williams]

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It was created by men, so that they would have power over other men.

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Your partly right it was written by men after they were told what to write. There are some wolves in the world that use it in that manner, but that is not the true reason it was written.

[DraconisRex]

I can answer that statement by scripture, from the book of John:

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11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

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[d8alus]

Luck and random occurance are totally seperate entities (for lack of a better word). A random occurance is just that, random. Luck on the other hand would alter that random occurance to either benefit (good luck) or hurt (bad luck) the person or people involved. That's like saying that every time you flip a coin, God directs the outcome. He doesn't have to, He set physics in place for a reason. And despite what my brother will tell you when he's playing a game, physics do not arbitrarily change for people.

As for Jaguar's post, if you look at it historically, especially around the time of the Crusades and exploration of the new world, then yes, the Catholic Church used their religion as a facade to impose their power on the rest of the world. Why do you think the 'Protestant Reformation' occured? Anyone remember 'White man's burden'? To go back even further, what about the Pharisees? Does that mean that is what is intended in Christianity? No.

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Well, it's hard to argue with faith, not much you can say will change it (kind of like a brick wall in that respect, but I shan't go there).

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And I'm stubborn to boot!

[Guest]

I love that, use the bible to prove the bible.

Too good, can't prove a negative guys.

It's called circular reasoning.

It doesn't work in science, debate or anything else, ONLY in religion is circular reasoning an acceptable logic.

[d8alus]

Well, that depends on whether or not you accept the bible as fact or fiction. It is very hard to explain the bible to someone that doesn't believe a word of it. One of my old roommates was atheist, boy did we have some fun conversations.