Kush

You go $ilk!!! Nice job kicking butt

West Wing. Big time.

ATI = BAD DRIVERS!!!

I know I'm going to sound like one of those kids in the car constantly asking, Are We There Yet... but... What's the eta on the street date? A week, a couple of weeks? I just want to know when I should be expecting a call from my local EB? Heh he he he. I can't believe I'm actually going to have BCM in my hot little hands!

Heh, me too!

I should only post here when I'm not rushed. My point is there are people all over the middle east who believe they have just cause to be angry at Western involvement in middle east affairs. Whether I believe them to be justified is another matter, but one this is true, the west (and yes, Russia) has played a major role in the affairs of that region, particularly since the end of the second world war. a) and I don't care what anyone tells you, the reason we in the west did not take in as many jewish immigrants as we could have after the war is anti-semitism, pure and simple. It's sad, it's awful, but it is true. Talk to any jewish person who survived and tried to enter England, Canada, the US, France, you name it. And I am very sad to say that Canada took in fewer than any other country. We knew. By July 1947 the war was well over, the nuremburg trials were in october of 46. By the time the Exodus set to sea, it was very clear to the Jewish people that they were a nation without a country. The situation was made all the more difficult for the British by attacks from the Irgun. In July of 1946, they blew up the southwest wing of the king David hotel, killing more than one hundred people. And on the other side of the coin, much earlier, back in 1945 Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon formed the Arab League and declared that any attempt to create a Jewish state would be an act of war. But there was little else the British, or the newly founded UN could do. On Aug 31st, 1947, the UN made a decision that would ultimately start us on the journey we are on right now. The UN declared that Palestine would be partitioned, and the state of Isreal would come into existence. Of course the Arab League felt betrayed, and enraged they attacked Jewish settlements in the Negev. The Jewish press critisized the British for not removing the Arab Legion from Palestine. And... well you get the picture. Now, as far as I'm concerned, the creation of Isreal is a good thing. But the way it was created has caused much bloodshed on all sides. And there are those who are part of the Arab world who take exception to certain actions in the past by Britain, Isreal, and the US. And regardless of whether or not they are justified in their anger, we must recognize that the creation of Isreal was a very very bloody, tumultuous affair, creating anger on all sides. If Isreal and the Arab nations are ever EVER going to find peace, it will have to come from recognizing past actions from all sides, asking for and giving forgivness from all sides, and working together to forge a new future, from all sides. That was my point. I don't have time to rebut point c) (damn, why do I do this.) but suffice it to say, I'm not an apologist. Far from it. I do think however that simple sloganeering and emotions that have run high over the past little while have clouded over the fact that many in the middle east have at times been our allies. That there are many different kinds of Islam, and that each country's relationship to each other, and the west's relationship to those countries are complex, more complex than simply saying "What the hell do those people have to complain about, we've done nothing to them!" I want to make it CRYSTAL clear that nothing any country in the west has ever done will ever justify terrorism. Nothing justifies terrorism. I'm simply pointing out how some non terrorist Arab peoples may feel a little conflicted about us in the West.

Woah! You are one very lucky individual!

Oh, and quickly, yes those of us in the West (not just America) have done many things to countries in the middle east that are un-just. Just off the top of my head a) It was the refusal to accept jewish immigrants after the second world war by those of us in the West (soley based in pure anti-semetism) that precipitated the need for isreal. For this reason, the British displaced the paletinians. c) The US funded and supported wars and military acts between Afghanistan and USSR, and Iran Iraq. d) During the gulf war, civilian targets WERE hit. Even the American military admits that it happened. And although it was not intentional, it happened. We in the west have been responsible for some of the violence and hardship in that part of the world. (And not just America, many nations are cuplable.) So it should not be any surprise that there are those in the middle east who have a just cause to resent those of us in the west. (And not just America either.) [ 09-25-2001: Message edited by: Kush ] [ 09-25-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

I'm just glad Menchise is here to pick up my slack. Okay, one more then I have to go back to work. [Wicked deadline staring me in the face.] Aramike, right now, Iraq is another Cuba, you can embargo the heck out of the country, but it ain't gonna change the leader. And the Gulf War has strengthened Saddam's support among his own people. Those who could have leaned towards his enemies have rallied behind him. Now there's nothing really that America can do about this. It was right to defend Kuwait, it was important to show solidarity with Saudi Arabia, Arab emirates et al. for the sake of continued relations in the middle east. The US has gained Iran as an 'ally' and held back a threat to stability. Personally I think the embargo has gone on long enough. The west should arm and defend Iraq's neighbours, and keep and eye on her military with the help of other arab states. Besides, the US is going to need Iraq as an ally again to help put pressure on the Palestinian govt. I don't think Saddam or Iraq was behind the attack, not because I don't think they didn't want it to happen, I just don't think they needed to lift a finger. As we speak, cells all over the world are hard at work on other attacks, and it is going to take WAY more than attacking the Taliban to make America safe from another terrorist attack. A ground war in Afghanistan won't succeed. They know it. We know it. And even if Bin Ladin is handed over with his plans and first in command, and a blueprint of his operations, you won't be able to stop terrorism. It will delay it, it will hinder it, but it won't stop it. He is the leader of an umbrella organization with cells in many different parts of the world. I actually have three ideas about how to cut off the terrorists at the knees. a) Deal with Palestine! I know that the US cannot magically procure a solution to an ancient problem that dates back to the bible, but if the US (and other nations) can get the cease fire back on track, deal with Jerusalem and at least create the appearance of forward momentum it would help alot. Deal with Iraq. I know the chances of this happening are about the same as a snowball lasting two minutes in Hell, but if the US could figure out a way to return Iraq to its former ally status, they would have a major head ache out of commission. Saddam did a very important job of keeping Iran at bay, and he could be used again on many different fronts, but the political will for this to happen is about as strong as Ellen getting back together with Anne Heche. c) This is the most crazy, out there suggestion I have, and I know it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime, but the West should really take a look at reducing their dependancy on crude oil. For many reasons, yes partially environmental, but also economic, and political. Im not suggesting trying to bankrupt the middle east, just reducing our dependancy on a handful of nations who are, at best, fractious and at worst, down right hostile towards each other in a way that places access to a precious resource constantly in flux. This flux has a MAJOR effect on our markets, and our lives. Again, I'm not talking about bankrupting countries who are our allies, I'm talking about easing our dependancy, so that the stakes aren't as high for us, and the urgency of dealing with every ancient grievance in a place half way across the world reduced. There you have it. I've gotta go. Come on Aramike, Jaguar, $ilk; Have at thee! [ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

[Warning: Totally off topic!] I can't wait for BCM multiplayer so that we liberals and socialists can take on you Adam Smith Capitalists Mano a Mano! [Warning: Back on topic!] So, the game! How is it? Should I run out there and pick it up, or wait for the patch?

Very good question! And the possiblity of that happening is not that far fetched.

I thought this thread was going pretty well actually. I even appreciated the SC's attempt at humour (although I don't think Derek's going to get a job writing for Fraser any time soon ) $ilk, I was reacting to this comment... quote: Most dictators throughout history were installed with the blessing of the people. A person very close to me fought long and hard against Obote in Uganda many years ago. Obote came to power through a bloody and brutal coup. There were many Ugandans who fought against him, including my friend, who in University organized ralleys, staged protests. One day, he was dragged into a forest, they asked him how he wanted to die. He asked for a grenade launcher. He thought it would be a quick and painless death. They shot a grenade at him, they fired their machine guns at him. Shrapnel filled his legs, bullets peirced his arms and his torso, they left him for dead... and he lived. A young boy found him, brought him to a neighbouring village, total strangers helped him get past one military road block after another, he was able to make it to a hospital, where they had to search for a doctor who was not afraid to heal a 'freedom fighter' with the help of his family and friends, he made it out of the country alive. He is a living example of someone who actually placed his life on the line for freedom. And he is a living example of how most dictators get to power through brutality and murder! I know it's really easy to sit here on a forum and talk about what people should do half way around the world. It is another thing to actually do it. And it's a whole lot harder than it looks. Pol Pot (sp?) murdered MANY MANY MANY MANY people. Most were not even freedom fighters, they were simply citizens killed for his pleasure. Lennin, Melosivich, the list goes on and on and on. Trust me when I tell you, if you read your history, you will find that most dictators do not rise to power with the blessing of the people. They kill their way to power and the people show a false blessing for fear of being murdered. And even if you are actively working towards the down fall of the dictator, you show a false blessing, purely to keep your activities secret. And Steve, capitalist countries attack each other all the time. Or at least have done so in the past. That's it! I'm starting a history class, I'll hand out cards, have pop quizes, nobody graduates without passing Dictators 101.

$ilk, Steve Schacher, you really do need to read your history.

Oh I think this will be a very interesting thread! Now, Aramike, it's obvious you've never had to live in a country where you are hungry and powerless every day of the year. And this is a good thing! A very good thing. None of us have really. (If you've got enough money for a computer and games and an internet connection, and you're starving, you need to take a serious look at your financial priorities) If ever I was in a situation where I was living in a country and I was hungry and powerless, I would want you on my side! I'm not being facetious. Your stance on personal freedom and what you're willing to do to protect it is admirable and would be welcome. And you may not believe this, but I'm sure there are a few "Aramike's" in Afghanistan, as we speak, working towards that very goal. The problem is, in these situations, it takes time. South Africa was not liberated in a day. Nor was the United States of America! Until that day, it would probably be in America's interest to Aid, and not Kill those who want to rise up against the Taliban. And the other problem is that the Taliban is well placed and has been since 1997. They were the major source of resistance against the Russians and were well supported by the United States for many years during the cold war. As a matter of fact, Ben Laden gained his training at camps funded by the CIA when George Bush senior was head of that organization. The CIA, and the military are well aquianted with Bin Laden and the Taliban. Just as they are aquanted with Saddam Hussein, first a hero in the war against Iran, then a despot who tried to annex Kuwait. This problem, what to do with former allies who turn against you when your enemies become your friends is an ancient, ANCIENT problem. Take a quick look at world politics in the Elizabethan era, and you'll see what I mean. And there are no hard and fast rules or solutions. This new war, isn't really a war. And the method of attack looks nothing like the "good old days" with cruise missiles and stealth bombers. Ask any member of the British military or secret service, and they'll tell you, terrorism is damn near impossible to wipe out using conventional means. First off, there is no one nation you can attack (The IRA gathers support, money and training from Canada AND the USA, two very friendly nations) often times, the terrorist live in your own country. And they work in Cells. The advent of Cells revolutionized terrorism. A cell is a small group of terrorists who recieve training and money from a larger organization, but only general instructions on what to do. They allow for an organization to carry out very complex attacks without the head of the organization knowing how or when or who was involved. It worked with great success in South Africa, where the ANC now form the governement. Even though Bin Laden is responsible for the attack, chances are he barely knows anything about who did it, or how it was carried out, or who else might be planning the next attack. And the US government, knows this. They know it all. And it looks to me like they are taking a very judicous route of fact gathering, finding out exactly who was involved, what cells are active and where, and they are going to hopefully stamp them out. There will be no nuclear strike. The only nuclear strike against Afghanistan would come from Pakistan, and I don't think even Pakistan would want to waste time bombing something worth less than the nuclear device itself. If the Taliban turns over Bin to a third country, it will be a good thing. If they keep him, and challenge the US to do something about it, it doesn't matter. Whether you have Bin Laden or not, you need to wipe out the cells or else it happens all over again. [ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

My guess is it's plain old fashioned elbow grease and a mind like a steel trap that keeps the VCF in order. I could be wrong, but that's my wager.

Aramike, I think the point that was being made is that the Taliban do NOT have the support of the people. The people are too weak, and hungry to be able to rise up against the government. I think Bush should offer food and aid to the people of Afghanistan in exchange for Ben Laden and his organization. You'd be amazed at how quickly they will turn him over.

What I find freaky and sad, is that the struggle Isreal faced in finding a homeland, and defending herself from her enemies in the old and new testament, is STILL GOING ON TO THIS VERY DAY.

RM I can't seem to get the link to work.

Jag, What if the terrorists were actually American? At this stage, we are not CERTAIN who did this. It's happened before. What if the terrorists were born in America?

They knew, there was nothing they could do. Forget about any Star Wars defense system. The real threat in this new century is going to come from terrorist organizations. My sympathies go out to anyone affected by this tragedy, and here's hoping the casualties were fewer than they could have been.

Now THAT'S A BARGAIN!

You ain't seen nothing yet!

Don't worry about the demo. When the game comes out, it will be a fine tuned machine. If you do have a problem with the game (which happens to the finest of software developers) I know one of us here can help. I'm sure you'll be able to run the game just fine.

They sell computer games at the ex?!

Just looked over the tutorial and appendix. Looks excellent! Great idea. Will really help newbies get up to speed!!! I did notice a couple more typos. You may want to get a proof reader to check things out. But that's it. Great work!