goaliejerry

******INCOMING TRANSMISSION / ICV MELISSA X****** LOCATION : UNKNOWN Cmdr. Skowronski alive and kicking! My crew is recieving some intense and vigorous training at an undisclosed location in preparation for our impending deployment. Preliminary results look promising and the crew grows hungrier for battle each day! Weapons systems and crews combat proficency better than anticipated and spirits are high. We will be out on manuvers through July 01, 2002, at which point we shall return to port and evaluate our status. Full combat readyness expected at that time. Until then...... *********END TRANSMISSION************

After reading the title of this thread I almost wanted to jump straight out of a window and land on my head in order to avoid the gut-wrenching sickness I knew I would feel upon diving into this one. So I won't. Cheers.

Cmdr. Skowronski Reports as ordered, sir! I know that MP is right around the corner, however I have to attend boot camp for air force ROTC from May 16 through June 28. However upon my return I will be ready and rareing to serve. For that reason I must take a leave of absence until June 28. Thank you Admiral.

Alright, don't ask me how 'cause I truly don't know, but somehow all the font sizes within internet explorer have gotten smaller. Does anyone know how I can correct this? When I goto any web site, the font appears smaller then it did before, and it sucks. If someone can help me out that would be sweet.

$ilk, I don't believe what menchise was refering to was multiculturalism. I too disagree with MC. MC essentially says that every culture is completely distinct, and every effort must be made to preserve those distinctions. In a truly MC society, every immagrint would refuse to assimilate and would demand recognition as well as all out acceptance of thier diffrences and would make no effort to change. However MC seems radical in that sense which is why its implimentation would be dangerous. Also, MC in practice is almost impossible, for every human being is influenced by those around them, and contact with others who think diffrently then you will inevitably lead to changes in your thoughts or behaviours, it is INEVEITABLE. There is a diffrence however between MC and simple respect for anothers culture. Without new ideas and viewpoints, there runs the danger of the "group-think" phenomena, whereby a people become so alike that they come to very similar conclusions, and thereby approch problems from a very similar and predictable manner. This is never good, especially in the international arena, where predicatablity of our thoughts and actions will only give those who may wish us harm an upperhand. For that reason we have both Liberal and Conservative politicians, for if one or the other dominated, then our country's course would be very one-sided and dangerously unbalanced. [ 05-05-2002, 05:53: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

Quote: "A diversity of cultures is important to the health of any vast society, otherwise it would socially and intellectually stagnate." Well said.

Your analogy to native americans is a good one, in that the Palestinians currently occupy land that doesn't exactly have a solid soverign government. They are sort of stuck there and Isreal must deal with them. However I feel that your use of the word "conquered" may be a little too strong. It is true that invadeing armies passed through territory currently claimed by the Palestinians, however their current occupation didn't involve any conquering. To conquer something suggests that some sort of opposition was given in defense. It was more like the Isreali military chased fleeing and defeated remenants of the invaders through the territory in question. Just a matter of semantics however. Menchise's analogy to Mexico isn't quite accurate because of the fact that Mexico is an established and recognized soverign nation, while Palestine is not yet.

The thing I find disturbing with regards to the Jenin issue is the intense isreali opposition to any sort of UN investigation. One of their stipulations for cooperation is that the Isreali's could dictate who could and could not be questioned. Why would this be nessecary if nothing happened? Let's not forget however that despite isreali resitance, no conclusive proof has yet to surface that such a massecer (yes I cannot spell) took place. Still it boggles the mind to imagine what sort of opposition Isreal would have to a UN investigative commity. Surely Isreal cannot believe that a UN commision would be biased, and yet strong resitance to any such action is takeing place at every level of the government. And what really gets me is NO explaination from Isreal as to why! They offer no reasoning, no justification, not even a shallow lie as to why the UN cannot go there. This I feel is quite damaging to their image. Kush's quote: "What both sides need to do is READ THIS THREAD." Reading everyone's responses, has a single person modified or moderated their view in the slightest bit? Or is everyone essentially airing their views and disregarding good points made by the opposition, and instead only responding to the weakest points? It would be nice if seeing a little truth would actually change someones mind, but most people are too proud for that, and it is sad. [ 05-02-2002, 00:11: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

Favorite books, only a few, cause I could go on much longer. 1)Chronicals of the Lensmen Vol. 1-6 2)The Iliad 3)ANy Calvin and Hobbes comic book 4)Anything by David Brin (I think thats his name) The Uplift Series I'm a big history buff, particularly history of warfare. So theres a bunch I've read in that catagory, but history books don't really qualify.

Congratulations are in order!

I know that you didn't intentionally imply that effort and input are directly related, and the remainder of your post highlights that quite clearly. I was just playing with the semantics to get a rise out of you. Admititly I haven't been following "the issues at hand" as closely as I should, however every now and then I just gotta speak up and strech my mind for a little. As I've said, finals are coming up, and every now and then I need to switch mental gears. Seeing as you said you've been having a sort of on-going debate with Menchise, I'm sure there will be ample time for me to hop-in in the future. Thats all, peace and goodnight.

CONTRADICTION!!!! YOUR QUOTE: "Effort is NOT measured as output. INPUT is measured as ouput. Don't change my damned argument to make a point against it. " ...And your contradiction, where I based my claim off of in the first place "quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's not about receiving equally, it's about receiving what is earned. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And how do you decide what is earned? Where's that guage? Effort can't be measured. Output can. Economic impact can. Therefore, the capitalistic guage is the ONLY successful guage. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is receiving from the output relative to the input (a.k.a. getting out what you put in). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (***Goaliejerry note: Here's your glaring contradiction) Again, how does one measure input? It's impossible. " You clearly imply that input and effort are directly related, as your use of the word "again" implys that your previous point with regards to "effort" is also applicable in later usage of the word "input." Thats all I was trying to highlight. Don't get all mad at me for pointing out the holes of your argument And I appologize for any sort of personal attack I may have made. That was unnessecary and ungentalmanly of me. And fellas, I must reiterate, I believe, as you do, that socialism is a political theroy whose success relys on the inherant goodness of man, which I fear does not exist. And I truly apoligize for dipping my feet in and stirring the water however slightly, however finals are approching and I must lock down. Suggestion for aramike: 1) make sure your right before you claim you are [ 04-17-2002, 23:10: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

Look I'm not an advocate of socialism in any way, however, aramike, your point you attempt to make here misses the mark. Your Quote: "Why? Here's a hypothetical to chew on: You're the hardest socialist worker ever. You gain vast goods due to your markings on the Effort Guage. You have children. They retain those goods. They produce additional goods. They have surplus of goods. They trade unnecessary surplus goods for other goods they want. Trade. That's a capitalistic society with a false socialist pretense. Now, you can say that you wouldn't trade any goods or your children wouldn't, either. But I would. $ilk would. Jaguar would. I would give a good doctor my spare vacation rations for exceptional medical services while you're stuck going to whatever doctor will take you. OK, that won't work. We can vote against practices like that. But WAIT!!! We've gotten rid of any authority to enforce it because we've decided people in power are baaaaaaad. So we all end up trading, and those with more initial effort end up aquiring loads of goods. Now their children don't have to work as hard because of inheretence. In the end, you have your glim prospect of capitalism. Whereas right now, we have a society which allows EVERYONE to attempt to aquire wealth through initial investment, then everyone who succeeds can take a ride on easy street. Either way, it's the same thing. " Your missunderstanding of socialist ideals stands out here. People with excess goods wouldn't trade them away, there would BE NO excess, for anything over what you needed would be given to the "collective" as the term has been used. If you had extra anything you'd give it to whoever needed it. So the theroy goes. Now I don't believe that human nature would allow this system to work, 'cause there would always be people like you who would hoard goods and be selfish. Also your claim that effort cannot be measured is sheer non-sense trying to be passed off as a brilliant realization. Effort, or Input, is measured in Output, silly. If someone works hard, they get more done. You try to use the claim that effort is immesurable, however every time you use it is another time you shoot yourself in the foot.

About the stuck personel, I had a similar problem once where none of my personal would goto quaters or other stations, rather theyd just jam up in one corrider, (not sure which). For the longest time, I was wondering, are they having a drinking party in Deck2 aft corrider or something? 'Cause they are just hanging out there. Then I discovered the problem. A recent engagement had caused extenesive damage to Cargo Hold 1, causing ALL food stores to float away. They were hungry! As soon as I stocked the galley, they happily ate and again became responsive and loyal troops. Check that your stores are full, that could be why your troops won't respond.

As far as I know, the only way to retrieve a disabled fighter is to get close enough with your CC and tractor. Have the shuttle fly back to the CC, then have it disable the tractor, then tractor in useing the CC. As soon as any pilot is dead you can begin cloning I believe. Hope this helps. This is how I do things, however I'm sure there are (as is ALWAYS the case with BCM) multable ways to do things. Polish Pride Friend. [ 04-16-2002, 00:53: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

Sir, Cmdr. Skowronski reports as ordered!

Your right soback. The "powers that be" so to speak have squandered whatever aid has been given to their countries in exchange for oil. And I'll be honest, I missed your post at the bottom of page three, and you know what? I agree completely with everything you said. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not a socialist in any respect. It's just that it always seems that popular opinion is always 100% pro isreali while 100% anti-palestinian, at least in America. I just wish to highlight that Isreal, despite their clear identification with American values, does not always act in the most prudent manner. And on the larger scale, America isn't as completely moral and rightous a country as some would like to admit. And some, not all or most, but some palestinian grievences have merit. However ultimatly my favorship swings towards the Isrealis, for as you said, thier government is much more well rounded, its a democracy for petes sake, while most arabic/islamic states are sham governments, with powerful shadow rulers manuvering puppets disguised as prime ministers or presidents. I feel pity however for the common man Arab, who really has no choice as to how to live his life or lacks opportunity for advancement. It's very true that Arabic leaders feed thier people lies and such, that it is Isreal and America that keeps them down, when in truth thier own government is responsible. This probably sounds lame but I only desire freedom for every man and women, to live and breath and be left to thier own hands, to be free to steer their own fate, wether down a path of success or bitter failure. I only wish to argue that it is not the "palestinian people" who are to blame. And as our culture so quickly jumps to, I wish to stave off the dehumanization of Palestinians and Arabs in general, and encourage people to gather and contemplate the facts before making conclusions. In this day and age of 24hour news coverage, where one feels they can get the full story in a sound bite, its important to realize that that sound bite was written by someone with a bias and a deadline to boot, and the whole story can never NEVER be known to one who was not actually there. As far as picking apart arguements, I've always felt that breaking down and destroying an opponents particular claim, when done successfully, can sink their entire credibility. However, I will admit, as opposed to many who won't/can't admit it,(and I truly referance no one in particular here) I feel hearing from someone who is informed and passionate and in direct opposition to my viewpoint is always beneficial, for it allows me to examine my stance for it's strenghts and weaknesses and modify it accordingly. I too am done here, all of this equates to mountain goats butting heads over and over, and all that results is sparks. I'd just like to say that I always enjoy lively spirted dabates, and truly appreciate an informed opponent. So to Jaguar and Soback, who are the only ones I really dealt with here, thanks and best wishes, I CAN'T WAIT FOR MP. (p.s. If anything really compelling gets presented again here, I can't help but jump in once again!)

Jaguar, can you please be informed before you speak. YES PALESTINE WAS ONCE A COUNTRY. Located with the mediterania to the west and the Dead Sea to the east, in what is now isreal and parts of Jordan. For god sakes this stuff isn't hard to find out. You can goto Webster.com and look up the definition, but to save you the trouble here it is. Palestine 2:former country bordering on the Mediterranean on W & Dead Sea on E; a part of the Ottoman Empire 1516-1917, a British mandate 1923-48; now divided between Israel & Jordan with Arab Palestinians in the West Bank having limited self-rule since 1993 Palestine is also known as the biblical term Canaan. This is the ancient COUNTRY OF PALESTINE. It sounds silly when you say things that aren't true. However, one point that I conceed is that the Isrealis are originally from palestine too, however they do not call themselves such. And yes, may "palestinians" do come from other regions, but the country of origin for an individual person isn't what matters, it's the origin of his lineage that does. For example, while I am certainly american, My heritage is polish, as my ancestors were polish and from poland. It works the same for the Arab Palestinians. And also, morality is realitive. If an isreali and a palestinian kill each other in the name of god, who goes to heaven? Do they both? Or neither? Just because you think something is true doesn't mean it is, and the same holds true for me and anybody. The answer to the above question does not exist, because any answer provided would be opinion only. And also, this is not directed to you Jaguar, a civilizations worth is not judged by their current value rather their contribution to the development of world cultures. Would you say that Roman Culture of old was not great, because according to your logic, since the collapse of the Empire their stature has declined. And yes Russia is defunct now, however that diminishes nothing from their cultural value. So yes, your right, current Arab culture seems to be anti-progressive, but it takes NOTHING away from their value as a culture. And you say they have nothing to offer in terms of art and such. THEY WOULD SAY THE SAME ABOUT US. THIS IS ALL REALITIVE. We don't see thier art because our cultures clash. You wouldn't have any interest in Arabic art, how self centered of you to think that because it doesn't appeal to you that it has no value. Typical American Cockyness, thinking we rule the world. How much did you actually study art before coming to the conclusion that Arabic art is worthless? I'm curious about that. I am sure their are many Arabs who completely enjoy thier art, and see no value in ours. It's all realitive. And also, Arab poverty, whose fault is it? Which powers came and took the oil and took the wealth back home from these regions, leaving them bare? Oh thats right, EUROPEANS. WE RAPED THEIR LAND AND STOLE THEIR WEALTH. IT IS NOT THIER FAULT THEY ARE DIRT POOR. European culture came in and dominated the weak and left them with nothing. And Jaguars gonna say "Yes we did, thats how it is and that is good. They were weak and we took advantage, it just the way things are." If thats no where near accurate please correct me. America isn't a Saintly nation, we are in no ways perfect or completely moral, and to assume that anything we do is RIGHT is plain ignorance. Was it right to round up every Arab person in America for questioning after 9/11? Or target arabs in airports simply because of how they look? Don't get me wrong, I wholly favor profiling, I say search their asses, they might have a bomb, it doesn't bother me. AND THAT IS THE AMERICAN ATTITUDE. And at least I can recognize it. EVERYTHING I BELIEVE IN AND SEE AS RIGHT IS WHAT FAVORS ME ONLY. And the same goes for you. What of Loyal arab americans who are in the military, who love this country and would die for it? Is it right that every citizen looks at them with suspicion after 9/11? Of course not, morality and rightness has nothing to do with the majority. THE MAJORITY OFTEN TIMES IS WRONG. And yes those are the values of western culture, but keep in mind, and I feel like I'm a broken record with the volume turned down, every thing we discuss here is all realitive, we say thier wrong, they say we're wrong. We're both set in our ways and unwilling to open our minds, so who is truly right? I'll tell you, NOBODY. JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU KNOW, THINK YOUR RIGHT, THINK THEIR WRONG, DOESNT MEAN JACK S_IT. [ 04-11-2002, 22:38: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

QUOTE: "The strenght of a civilization is defined by it's achievements in arts, technology, and other areas, including their ability to use natural resources (hell, who do you think was more evolved, neanderthal or a sword weilding knight). Arabs lived on that land for thousands of years, but they couldn't even make anything resembling what Israel made in their 50 years it was there. So yes. Israel is worth much more to the world then all the arab counries combined." Just so all of you know, arab/Islamic culture in the middle ages was highly advanced, thier knowledge of astronomy and mathmatics surpassed that of europeans. Their reach extended to practically every corner of civilization, and they traded with vast numbers of people. As far as Isreals contribution to the world, I think its funny that you claim thier contribution to the world is great. Can't you see their entire country's culture is built off of American ideals and money? Thats why there is so much culture conflict, Arabic way of life is completely opposed to western culture, which is what Isreal exhibits. Thier essentially a self-governing American colony, thier contruibutions to the world are supportive of America's own and nothing more. So arabic oil is worth nothing to the world? Come on, think before you write.

The paradox here is that the few Palestinians who blow themselves up and fight with Isrealis, and assuradly not all palestinians elect to fight, bring the hardships on thier own people. They fight for betterment of their cause, actually worsening their plight, yet are still revered by their people despite the fact that they are causing Isreali incursions to increase! It never ceases to amaze me....

I'd like to address if I may some replys to my post, and Jaguars rehtoric in general. To $iLk: Your Quote: "In order to get to the "root causes" of all of this, let's realize why they hate us. Okay first off let's dismantle Israel, and "push all the jews into the sea" since that seems to be one root cause. Another is the fact that we are not a Muslim theologically run country, let's alleviate that. You definately don't stop terrorists by doing *nothing* or by giving in to their demands. I could care less about "why they hate us" because it doesn't matter how they feel about us. One thing I do care about is things that they *do* to our citizens. I don't care what they feel, but I don't regret letting them know that to put their feelings into action means immediate death, or life imprisonment." First of all, your cleary stating your own feelings with out addressing ANYTHING I said. I never said lets dismanlte Israel, nor to "push all the jews into the sea." That is completely unrelated to the root cause of the conflict, which goes FAR beyond any recent actions. We cannot simply go around the world and say "screw everyone, only we matter." Self-centered ideas such as this, to impose our will on the world as we see fit, and is pure naivety, which I will address next. To Jaguar: Naive, lets examine the word. 1 : marked by unaffected simplicity 2 a : deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment b : not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular experimental situation ; also : not having previously used a particular drug (as marijuana) 3 : Self-taught, primitive Definition one, marked by unaffected simplicity, well the complexity of the issues we're dealing with rules that definition right out. Definition two, we can disregard b as it does not apply here, however a is the sense you attempted to use. Deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment. The second part; informed judgement; seeing as your decision that I was "naive" was based on less then a half a page of text rules out any possibility for validity of your claim, for to base a judgement of my base of knowledge or experiance with only a snippet to go by is like attempting to devine the plot line to a novel by reading one paragraph from the middle. The same logic holds true for definition a, for you have no idea what I know or have experienced or think. So it seems that your calling me "naive" is in itself marked by unaffected simplicity, or rather it was naive itself. Now on to your claims. It's quite obvious from reading your posts that you are reactionary in nature. A problem to you doesn't exist until it's directly in front of your face, or when the passenger liners stirke the sky scrapers. Believe me, I was and am horrifed, outraged, and wholly supportive and in complete agreement with our war on terror. I see the need for our killing members of al-queda and rounding up terrorists. Those are my ingrained beliefs. I'm in air force rotc and I love the art of warfare, I feel that the world in it's present form was shaped wholey by the phenomena of human organisations formed into groups with common interests coming into conflict with each other. War is both nessecary and ultimatly benificial. It is important to me however, to be able to take a step back and view WHY I feel as I do, and REALIZE that everything I think is based wholly on the worlds relation to ME, and no other relation. Some of the things you say disturb me to think that there are actually people in the world like you. "Israel does NOT occupy that territory, THEY WON IT, fair and square. The land they took was used to stage the massive attack on them in the 6 day war. They hold it for thier own protection. If they give it back, I know exactly what will happen, the Arab nations, Iraq, Syria, and possibly Jordan will once again, attack Israel and bowl under the Palestinians, just as they did in the 6 day war. The Palestinians are a nomadic peoples, a mixture of Jordanians, Syrians, and others, who have been kicked out of thier own countries to be tossed to Israel as a pain in thier side." They won it. It's a large game with prizes? Paid for in blood? Winning implys a happy event, such as winning some money or a new car. Nobody in Isreal, I assure you, was happy when the war ended after six days. Elated yes, that the threat to the soverinty had be quelled, but in no way pleased, for anyone pleased with death, truly pleased, is simply immoral. Fair and Square? That phrase implies according to the rules, and the important part, uncontestable. If that conflict's outcome was uncontestable, we wouldn't be having this discussion today. Please friend, don't, as so many reactionarys do when I post on message boards, misconstrue what I am saying as support for the destruction of Isreal. THAT COULD NOT BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH. What saddens me is the perpetual cycle of death that exists in the region, and I only wish, (however COMPLETELY understand that it will never happen) that it would end. You read what I say and think and type "Change the world and everything will be better," as if your mocking me. But is it not true? Not gonna happen, but it doesn't hurt to contemplate, which is all that I am doing. I'm a realist my friend, I know that none of this will change, and no idealistic plan will ever cure the ails of the region. But to look deep into a conflict such as this reveals much about human nature itself. I agree with you, Isreal needs to possess that land for their security, however you claim that "the Arab nations, Iraq, Syria, and possibly Jordan will once again, attack Israel and bowl under the Palestinians, just as they did in the 6 day war." Unlikly, seeing as the sole super power in the world, the United States, would not allow that sort of escalation of conflict in the middle east, and besides, the Isreali military could defeat any conventional threat from any of those opposing countrys. Don't forget, worse comes to worse, Isreal has the bomb, those countries do not. The palestinians are nomadic not by choice but by circumstance. This is important to highlight, for your reference to it seems to be for the effect of reducing their value as humans, as if they are rats who plauge whoever they come in contact with. VERY DANGEROUS AND ALMOST SICKENING. "The only way to fight terror is defeat it whenever it pops up it's head. Not to reward it, but to DESTROY it. The world has poor, the world has rich, the world has middle class, that is the way of human nature, and that will NOT change, no matter how much people wish to ignore that fact." Who said anything about rewarding it? Whatever do you mean? Who has suggested or even hinted at such an idea? Your use of it here is to highlight your arguement, but a close look revels it's hollow. As to the remainder of your paragraph, I'm not implying any such thing, I'm not a socialist by any means, I love our country and her ideals more then you know or would care to admit. Poverty is not whats behind any of this, the imposition of our ideals on unwilling cultures is what fuels anti-American hatred, but people like you ignore the causes, paying attention only to the effects and the imediate and impermanant resolution of such effects. Pops it head up. You acknowledge that terroism pops up, but is it not logical that if the reasons used by terrorists to justify their actions were removed from their head, that they wouldn't commit terror? Thats really ALL I'M SAYING. NOTHING MORE. "No one is created equal, we have equal opportunity in this country, and that is all other people have as well. Equal opportunity is a lot different then EQUAL everything. Equal everything is Socialism and will fail, EVERY time. And has failed, EVERY time it is tried." Again, this is your rehetoric, and has nothing to do with anything I said. "THe Palestinians had the opportunity to work in Israel, to earn a good living, because they do NOT know how to do that in thier own territories. They do NOT start business's, they do NOT farm, they do not CREATE things, unless building belt bombs is creating something. They work in Israel, because Israel does ALL of these things, then they BOMB the Israeli's who created jobs for them, brought up thier standard of living for them. etc." Your grouping of an ENTIRE people into one tightly constrained catagory is, again, disturbing. They don't start businesses, they don't farm; how do a people, who have lived in abject poverty for decades, do such things? How do people whose lives are restricted by an imposed government, whose freedoms are not equal to those that rule them, lay down and take it? History has shown that they won't, and that is what we are seeing here. It equates to the freeing of all the slaves by Lincoln, how does an entire population of uneducated completely impoverished people simply jump into society and be able to live with the same quality of life as the majority? We see TO THIS DAY that this has yet to be accomplished, and many problems remain HERE in America as a result of this massive influx of pennyless people with attached stigma. Isreal also does all of these things through the support of America, whose orgininal intentions in complete and total support of (and in some ways propping of) Isreal were motivated only by the desire to have a western foothold in the middle east to prevent the spread of communism during the cold war. You talk about Palestinians as if they are helpless children who are incapable of self sufficentcy. Your prejudice is glaring. "Israel has done far more then enough for the Palestinians in the past, and now it is time to put them back in thier place, after a few years of peace, maybe, just maybe the Palestinians will be trustworthy enough to be granted thier own country, but they aren't trustworthy now, so they should be put down and put down HARD. They need to be put in a position where they are no longer capable of terrorising Israel, and Israel is doing EXACTLY the right thing." You talk about Isreali and Palestinian relations as if they are one way, that Isreal does all the work and wonders why the Palestinians aren't grateful. And the one line I think clearly demonstrates your crooked bias here is "now it is time to put them back in thier place." Oh really? So oppression is the way to go? Make sure you cripple their ability to function independantly of Isreal to promote their eventual independance? I will not even begin to, for their is no need to, explain the absurdity of what you say. Your verbage implys that "thier" (i.e. An entire population of men and women) place is second class dependance on a government that clearly does not view Palestinians as equals, and no reactionary, not COMPLETE EQUALS BUT EQUAL IN THE SENSE THAT THEY ARE JUST AS ENTITLED TO THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS AS ANYOTHER HUMAN BEING. And yes reactionary, anyone who terror bombs deserves to pay whatever price society deems fit, I firmly believe that, and I also know that terroism has no positive effects FOR ANYONE. "The only way to stop terrorism in it's tracks is to destroy it whenever it is found, PERIOD." Thats just false, and I'm sad you can't see that. Remove the hatred and no one desires to kill anyone. Terror is carried out with simple tools, is Isreal to remove all pipes from Palestinian land and ensure that NO gunpowder gets through? Of course not. You have to change peoples minds to stop them from performing certain actions. "To use fear and intimidation against a civilian population is immoral, wrong and just begs for reprisals. To say that the palestinians terrorist activity has the same moral standing as a declared war against another countries military is naive and just plain ridiculous." I agree whole heartedly. It is important to realize however, and again THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REALIZE, that the retailiation imposed upon the perpetrators is ONLY for our satisfaction and re-affirmation of security. IT DOES NOTHING, NOTHING, TO DISUADE FUTURE TERRORISTS, AND MAY VERY WELL INCITE MORE TO THE CAUSE. Just as a life or death sentance does not disuade a murderer who kills in the heat of the moment, so to does the far less concreat possibility of military reprisals disuade a religious fanatic filled with fervor. "The Palestinians have had MANY opportunities for peace with Israel, but peace is NOT what they want. They wish to DESTROY Israel, NOTHING LESS." NOT TRUE. They want a self governed homeland. Their desire isn't to destroy Isreal, only to be free of Isreali influence. "I DON'T THINK SO, it is time, PAST TIME, for Israel to STOP this carnage and push the Palestinains back to a point where they cry uncle. The only thing that terrorists understand is OVERWHELMING force. And that is what they are getting, FINALLY!!!" How silly, isn't it an inability to challange the overwhelming force of Isreal's militray that pushed them to use terrorist tactics in the first place? "The Israeli's should destroy EVERY building that has had ANYTHING to do with a terrorist, if a terrorist hid there, DESTROY it, if a Terrorist lived there DESTROY it, if a TERRORIST visited there, DESTROY it. It will show the Palestinians that if they help terrorists, are friends with terrorists, or attempt to help terrorism in ANY way shape or form, THEY WILL LOSE EVERYTHING that they hold dear. IT WILL BE DESTROYED, so let the terrorists burn, and do not attempt to help them and you will be fine." You are a disturbing individual, and all I can say is that I am glad you have no influence on the world stage whatsoever. DON'T YOU SEE!!!! RESENTMENT IS WHAT CAUSES PALESTINIAN HATRED OF ISREAL, AND ACTIONS SUCH AS THESE WOULD ONLY SHOW THAT ISREAL IS RUTHLESS AND THUSLY INCREASE RESENT TOWARDS THEM. "The Palestinians are the ones responsible for Israel striking back, no one elses. Israel is defending itself PERIOD!!! The Palestinians started this disaster, and now they are going to get thier butts kicked because of it!! They started it, Israel will finish it, END OF STORY!!!" So Isreal had nothing to do in Isreal's striking back? You say things that are completly contradictory with out even knowing it. It takes two to tango, and Isreal is not the helpless victim in all of this, rather there are two diametrically opposed cultures in direct conflict with each other whose conflict is so complex that greator minds then yours or mine have POURED over it and come up completely empty. When fighting a counter-insurgency, which is really what Isreal is doing, the problem lies in the nature of the conflict. In a counter-insurgency, the goal is to affect peoples minds and change their beliefs so that they will not oppose the government. Conventional war entails fighting using conventional tools, i.e. tanks and soldiers, to take and hold land, which is what Isreal is doing. Being superiour at one helps not in the least bit in the other. And I just want to clairify this, so please, if anything read this. I find it sickening that terrorists prey on civilians and kill innocent people indiscriminantly. The current conflict in the middle east is simply horrible, and Isreal is fullfilling her only real option, and I do not oppose it. The purpose of anything I say is not to lend sympathy to mass murderers, but simply to cause us to examine ourselves and our actions, because every action has a reaction, and nothing happens without a REASON. [ 04-08-2002, 02:12: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

"Weed out terrorists" What a silly thing to say. For every terrorist "weeded out" becomes a martyr for thier cause, and young men in palistine, with no chance to better their lives due to isreali occupation, pick up the cause. Same goes for our war on terror. Killing or arresting terrorists will do nothing to stop it, just as arresting drug dealers will not stop the drug trade. The problems are much larger socialogical issues, and the only way to end any of this, terrorism and middle east violence, is to recognize and address the ROOT causes behind it all. We need to address why the world resents us, and as a result hates us. Isreal needs to fess up to it's wrongdoings as well and stop being so hard headed, they claim devine right to the land, but when a muslim palestinian and an isreali both pull their tigger at the same time and kill one another, who goes to heaven? We could sweep every single terroist off the face of the earth, but as sure as the earth orbits the sun, when another problem arises in the world, whatever it may be, some person, who wasn't involved in terror when we swept his region clean, will turn to it to advance his cause. It won't ever end, all we can do is suppress it's effects. The Palestinian people want justice and security as well, however justice ruled by a palestinian judge, and security from isreali incursions into land their feel is rightfully theirs. I'm not saying that sucicide bombers are the way to go, nor that isreal is in the wrong for it's retalitory actions, however for every extra jewish soldier that enters palestinian towns, is that much more resentment brewed in the palestinian people. It's a sad downward spiral whose cause is ingrained in religion itself, and we all know how difficult it is to "challange the word of god." [ 04-06-2002, 00:11: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

FYI, Britain promised a state to both isreal and palestine, however the palistinians didn't have the clout to push Britain to do as promised, as the Jewish people did. Thier lobbists were much more effective in swaying american favor for them, and Britain backed out before a palestinian state was formed. In my opinion, I don't think Isreal should ever have been formed in the first place. Why should land that is so sacred and holy to THREE of the worlds major religions be ruled by a state that is devoutly Jewish? Also FYI, since sept 2001, as of Apr. 4 2002, 1,260 palestinians have been killed, and 410 isrealis have been killed. This includes both military and CIVILIAN deaths. Yes the isrealis have killed civilians, however assuradly they were not targeted, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

SC, while I know I am not "credible" I have never seen an enemy marine on land either. I've sent down squads of 25+ marines to attack a base, and never once had to worry about their well being, only that of my fighters and shuttles, for the SAMs and fighters launched certainly fought back. (In fact so many fighters that I now send marines and OCs to destory launch pads before sending in fighter cover) However I've destoryed entire bases with marines and not had to worry about the enemy engaging my troops. They've been free to fire upon enemy stuctures without my marines being targeting by anyone. I've never lost a marine on land when their not in a vehical. My two cents, for whatever they are worth.

Looks more like a jump gate to me, but thats simply a guess