Lotharr

Jag and I go way back...us paranoids are like that....

A little slow on the draw darling? heh heh... I'll take two Jag...as long as they are made in America...oh...nevermind.

quote: That doesn't seam to describe Jaguar, Dredd, or $ilk, and it sure as bloody hell doesn't describe me Everybody realizes what you represent....and what that is differs distinctly from them....even if indirectly and unknowingly you ultimately serve the same people. quote: Now, on the other hand, your comment about apes is more then a little derogatory So when you make extremely derogatory sweeping generalities that should be considered appropriate? Now I'm not up on the lingo but isn't that trolling.when you run around trying to pick a fight with statements that are inflammatory and inaccurate? quote: There are folks in here who suck up to the ruling class so much THEY ACTUALLY THINK THEY ARE PART OF IT! They are not . They are us . They just don't get it. In a way I find it interesting to see how those who truly believe in their country and the noble ideals of self governance and freedom grapple with the propaganda machine and what it actually represents....even better, it brings out those who speak for the face behind the mask....even if they like to pretend they would ever be included by those they defend. quote: is like wasting Shakespeare on apes. quote: Last week I joined a group of men who mentor at risk youth. Your sense of duty to the people is the mark of a true patriot. quote: So I urge you to not beat your head against the wall , it don't change the wall and is a constant source of headaches I have a thick head. Next semester I'll be taking a more direct role in raising awareness and continuing in the footsteps of those remarkable people who led the way and who continue the fight against the vast tyranny and injustice that continue to twist and mock the ideals of our country....so I probably won't have that much time either. quote: I don't think my absence will be noticible I'll notice and I believe others will too...so hopefully once in a while youll get the chance to type out a good smack down for those who desperately need it. Good luck. [ 11-26-2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: You have no desire to make money I agree - you simply want to even the playing field by either: A. Creating a moneyless system where everyone is monetarily equal. B. Redistributing all income to create a classless society where everyone is monetarily equal. What? quote: I assume you never heard of tyranny of the majority Currently only in one dollar one vote politics. quote: Individual liberty and individual sovereignty are under siege by a tyrannical out of control Federal Beauracracy. I am aware of those assaults, and I support the effort to dismantle large unconstitutional agencies of the Federal Government So then how do you fail to see that large business organizations pose the same threat? quote: A person's use of his money is his constitutional right. Ethics should be enforced, but upon the taker of the money, not the giver - i.e. the 'corrupt' politician/scientist/media mogul Right so banning election contributions of millions of dollars destroying the election process would be a good start. Forcing media agencies to give equal access to candidates is another good idea....the cost of doing business in a representative democracy.... quote: Money funneled to factories that produce nothing but jobs, studies to determine how to get the smell out of pig excrement, $1000's of dollars for supplies that cost maybe $100's if you shop competitively. So are you offended that you have to pay more for irresponsible companies then people? quote: Ambulance chasers are your problem, not corporations. Pharmaceutical companies are moving at an extremely high pace to vertically integrate these markets....I understand the problem of ambulance chasers but legal recourse must be given to citizens who suffer from irresponsible corporate governance. Perhaps these "idiot juries" are actually projecting hostility onto a crooked setup by stories of cost effectiveness vs people's lives and are sick of the people being written off for the bottom line. Perhaps they are given damn good evidence of negligence. I believe negligence is all too pervasive in a system that is seeking to infiltrate the medical profession by bribing doctors to indorse products, hiring ghost writers that promote products or get fired, and just all around try to turn health care into another highly profitable industry at external cost. quote: BTW can you name someone who was turned away from life-saving medical treatment last year? The year before? I'll look in to it. quote: The rich get richer because they do what made them rich in the first place, invest. The poor get poorer because they do what they've always done, spend. Loose fiscal policy of individuals is not my concern. Uhhh if they're poor what do they have to spend? And if their working poor how can they invest in success? And if they keep getting laid off, downsized, and outsourced how can they save money? quote: It doesn't matter how many poor or homeless people (people who don't have any ambition to work) get together and want handouts. It's still objective STEALING when the government takes money from those who have worked to earn it and give it to those who haven't. Being benevolent when stealing doesn't make it right. That'd justify my robbing anyone as long as i'm hungry. Corporate socialism is "robbing" you more than any the legions of evil welfare moms ever did. Believing opportunity is equal across the board is crap. If your born into poverty in this country your guilty of nothing but being unlucky. You can then look forward to a life of incarceration and distain by a society that would rather call you a thief then demand effective change. quote: Too bad, those exec can't drive a rolls-royce, can't have a small jet, nor a 12 bedroom and a 6 bathroom, have 12 different homes for vacations all around the world, a personal cruiser... aww. They would only make the equivalent of 12 employees, instead of 350. You got it. quote: Yea, our economy has managed to survive all the attempts at sabotage so far, so it should be able to survive anything. A nice though, but if you keep making it harder and harder to turn a profit then eventually things will go downhill. Sure whatever....if anything forcing corporations to take responsibility for their workers and acts of negligence have made current success possible. They cannot subvert the sovereignty of the people indefinitely. Eventually they will be brought back towards civic accountability one way or another. quote: First of all, from what I recall there wasn't anything terribly wrong with the gilded age I'm not suprised.

Dragon Lady I love how you can side step the real issues of a discussion and settle for rather trite renditions of the "wolf in do-gooder clothing"... quote: but that doesn't make them right, and it certainly doesn't make that what's best. After all, don't poor people want more money? It should be a simple matter to give them more money, and there are enough of them to get what they want... at the expense of our future as an economic power. And it's possible to assuage the bleeding hearts as well, but the price is the same. Ahhh yes those savages who fought back during the gilded age and formed the new deal and other social programs to protect the people from rampant exploitation and human rights abuse.....the fools. A lot of poor people just want a decent place to live, food, and job security...imagine that. Ultimately that is the big fear isn't it? That by limiting the power of corporations to operate unfettered of social responsibly and accountability, we some how lose the business edge and everything falls apart....what a load of crap... If the only way to insure success is by having disposable personal and destroying people's right to health care and stable jobs then we desperately need to find a new way of doing business. quote: I'm no economist to explain this or that strategy, but I do know enough to know that deregulation will go a long way towards bolstering out economy Our economy has been expanding since the founding of this nation. Even after the new deal. Short term answers to problems like dumbsizing and using disposable personnel in the form of an ever growing legion of temp workers does not ultimately serve the economy. What it really does is destroy the lively hood of millions of workers and make more transparent the evaporating veil of the American dream.... quote: which would be good for the economy, and thus good for everyone.Heh hehtell that to the thousands of workers who lost everything when Enron and company went under.oh wait the got a check for approx 13,000...while the 140 execs at Enron got 5,300,000...average.... Yes that is why the wealth gap is continuing to expand while we debate. I am not subject to the fear mongers who insist that regulation and social responsibility will destroy the economy....that is a line of trash put out by suits disconnected from reality. quote: Well darling, someone here is buying into propaganda, but I'm not sure you got it right on whom.

quote: Those who have that money EARNED that money. The tone of your rhetoric is simply greed born of envy. You envy those who have more money than you, therefore you seek to 'redistribute' their income. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have no desire to make money. I just want to live modestly and fight injustice as America's true ideals demand. quote: Who are you to say how much is too much? And who are you to say that since someone earned a good amount, that they do not have the right to keep what they earn? I am part of we the people and when enough of us get together we have the absolute right to determine anything we want. I don't call buying your way into a prestigious university then inheriting a fortune earning anything. It wouldn't be a big deal if those people could act responsibly. But that is not the core issue of my post. I do believe that meritocracy and free enterprise can be effective.just not in current forms. Calling me a socialist because I want to reform a busted system is your right. However to sit back and say the magic bullet is to downsize government is not dealing with reality. I think it demonstrates that youre not aware of the systemic assaults on sovereignty and liberty or youre just buying into the business media propaganda that corporate governance is preferable to governance by the people. quote: Or is it because they realize that everything you propose is simply state sponsored thievery? That is ridiculous....a corporate owned state already houses more thieves then my proposals to get the money out of politics, media, science would create. quote: And why is it that if an individual were to do this he would be labeled a criminal, yet the federal government does it every day? And you think AOL Time Warner would do so much better? Why don't you ask why the gun is to your head to support failing businesses run by irresponsible executives who know they are going to be taken care of...executives who believe in irrational dumbsizing and cheerleading the speculation band wagon....who have absolutely no concern for their workers or their country? [ 11-24-2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

We need to get this topic out of Anti-war...while I believe McDonalds and McDonalds Douglass go hand in hand we should separate these issues. quote: Frankly, i'm sick and tired of this constant "coroporations bad" rhetoric. Boo hoo...and I'm sick of conservatives who base their information off of paid for science info channeled through entertainers using monopolized mass media that plays at distributing objective assessments. quote: The whole reason corporations have formed and SURVIVED is because *the people* which your so fond of saying will "rise up" SUPPORT THE CORPORATIONS. A few people didn't suddenly say "lets get a lot of money so we have influence over everything". What happened was there were simple people, with good ideas and good businesses, who had THE PEOPLE buy their products or services. Tell that to Rockefeller....are you kidding?!? It seems to me that since the rise of capitalism commercial interests have always tried to influence policy making....a long time ago the social order was not so complicated and easily manipulated. With the rise of "communism" we had a boggy man. Today we don't. We feared the totalitarian nature of the Soviet Union because it was so blatant in its repression....could it be possible that tyranny can manifest itself in new forms? Well I suppose it is okay as long as we keep oppression overseas and we believe that American and Christian values end at the boarder..... quote: They made a lot of money off of it. When they overstepped their bounds, anti-trust legislation happened. Monopolies of the were broken up and people STILL SUPPORTED these companies/corporations. The corporations have a lot of money, gained from THE PEOPLE supporting them. So they use that money to make more money, by using their wealth to buy air-time on TV and support networks so that THEIR CORPORATION/COMPANY is portrayed in a good, money-making light. And guess what? It's the PEOPLE who made it this way, and are keeping it this way through their monetary support, not some evil entity called "the corporation". Clearly you do not understand how much money is funneled into Washington. The cost of election are staggering and the inherent restrictions created are inhibiting....not to mention the huge amount of time thoroughly wasted by officials scrambling to raise more funds for the next election....but that's ok, while our elected officials are busy trying to get reelected other sources of governance will fill the void. It would seem that since the founding of the country it has never been about "the people", i.e. all white men were created equal etc. In fact it would seem that the incessant "whining" of the people only get in the way of "progress" (tips beer dispensing hat to DL). Do you find it at all strange that during the turn of the century in order to outlaw child slavery activists had to quote animal cruelty laws....against...*gasp* corporate profiteering?!?! So really the answer is by export the jobs to create misery (or opportunity depending on who's talking) and leave Americans without work and looking for a handout? quote: 1. How, EXACTLY (how it should be/how it is now), is the media being manipulated from the truth in order to support a war? To question the motives of the administration would lead to embarrassing moments of an administration run by people who come from the oil industry and have questionable motives in general. Lets look at the big picture. Journalists in corporate media ultimately work for CEOs who have vested interests in issues, which if examined, would draw attention to certain disturbing realities of globalization in current forms. Main stream journalists do not really do any investigative reporting. They have a boss and that boss understands what is acceptable and what is not.that is how they got the job. Most disturbing is that research often used is being conducted by personnel in organizations funded by parent institutions that have a vested interest in some product. From pharmaceuticals to the ozone, big money players understand they are under attack and are fighting back the way they have been trainedsand in the eyes or whatever works. However, rather than take appropriate action or reproach themselves they pay for elaborate deceptions that distort reality, displaying the true nature of their game. So the journalist (supervisors mostly) are supposed to sort out the nonsense.but they cant.even if they wanted to the slick segments and stylized press releases are tailored to fit perfectly within broad cast formats..these programs are generated on a level that make it like swimming through a sea of sh*t.its called noise and entire companies are dedicated to making it. quote: 1b. How you think it SHOULD be portrayed is any LESS BIASED than the "corporation biased news"? what? quote: 2. Why does a war on Iraq UNIQUELY benefit CORPORATIONS? (explain why a war on IRAQ as opposed to one on Iran or North Korea BENEFITS corporations...there are plenty of "GOOD" reasons a war on Iraq is best) It benefits in two major ways off the top. One: There are vast oil deposits that equal profit by selling to other countries (or not selling thus insuring control over any would be dissenters of future US actions). Two: Reinforcing the idea to the world that America (when not making deals with) will stomp any dictator that threatens us militarily or economically. So if you screw with GE you deal with the Marines. quote: 3. How EXACTLY do you propose the system should be changed so that there is no "evil manipulation"? Corporate interests have to be systemically removed from media, politics, and science. A good step towards funding these ideas would be to end the 30 billion spent annually on corporate socialism and stop cutting these companies tax breaks that dont serve anyone but those who already have a ton of money. Expanding participation by differing opinions that have been traditionally shut out by one dollar one vote ideologies never hurt anyone accept those in power. If those currently elected today had to serve the people we might actually get results rather than rhetorical BS that leaves policy makes gridlocked until the only answer is to privatize everything. The only problem with that is whats left to govern? Some would say themselves and that is a great idea.but those notions are fantasy in the reality of institutions that have no master or ambition save the bottom line and wield real power over peoples lives. quote: Yelling that your right won't change minds.... Ultimately we have to realize that people are not disposable and liberty is not for sale. But drive on with you post hoc equations of power and legitimacy.it is a familiar notion that defines mainstream American thought. Deny the problem all you want.but our democracy (republic) is declining. I would rather ask the tough questions to get the real answers. [ 11-23-2002, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Everybody thank Bell Globemedia Interactive Inc. They sure cleared that up..... We are down to twenty corporations that own and operate the media.thats books, magazines, TV, cable, satellite, and obviously fair and balanced news outlets. So we have an astronomer, a geologist, and a get thisan "investment banker / environmentalist"... conducting this research....truly groundbreaking.... Thanks Globemedia Inc!! You have demonstrated the truly frightening reality of corporate dominance in matters of science and information..... Wow...this clears it all up....all those scientists domestic and abroad who consider the assault on the environment a real threat must be smoking crack and have nothing else to do.....or maybe they arent on the payroll yet. Do you get a commission to spread this crap? Here's a link to an American representative...yes he's left (independent)...but listen to what he has to say about the media.... I realize that in this war on the mind we are barraged by the slick package and patriotic imagery but truly we have to ask who the real patriots are.. http://www.americanfreepress.net/08_08_02/...ams_media_.html [ 11-19-2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

I'd have to disagree EP...I see the opposite happening all over... quote: your assumption that people will somehow become away of what's going on is laughable. quote: ROFLMAO!! How much time do you spend on the floor anyway?

quote: Environamentalists are the cover of the most left wing communists and socialists in the world. No wonder you joined the green party!! Ahhh that famous insight I've come to admire...yes Jag all the scientists were wrong or lying until we were saved by the always objective corporate scientists who rushed in to set them straight.... quote: I have looked at these so called environmental studies, and to say that they are bogus is an understatement. Thank the lord we have PhD's.... Not that we shouldn't run to take the word of corporate propaganda....like those telling people they are watching "fair and balanced" news somehow makes that true (not to mention the inherent questions raised by even having to make that statement in the first place)....some folks must think people are pretty stupid....but that's ok...as the people wake up and identify the manipulation for what it is they'll find a growing community who recognize this fraud and are move to oppose it. Just like the idea that the center is left....that is the goofiest thing I've ever heard....the duopoly of politics espousing corporate economics are the only views being represented in our current political and mass media strangle hold....that statement would be funny but people actually believe it....so it's just sad. As media, corporations, and wealth continue to consolidate their positionrebellion will increase...we are already seeing this and it will continue to grow. With the consolidation of information, expanding wealth gaps, destruction of the biosphere, threat of capital flight (real and inherent), and erosion of respected democratic institutions become harder to hide people of all walks of life will join together and fight back....perhaps these interests will self regulate and strike a inclusive positive balance....but I doubt it. When the destructive heart of current corporate ethos becomes impossible to deny, the victims and passive consenters will begin to question the rhetoric. They will begin to question the validity of dehumanizing themselves and their peers in order for a small group of haves to further separate themselves from the have-nots. A person can believe in free enterprise, meritocracy, and sustainability while recognizing the growing threats to the sovereignty of self and state. Seeing a clever euphemism for what it really is doesn't make a person a commie or a socialist....it makes them aware.

Ghandi was da' man.... Left -7.12 Libertarian -6.10 Heh heh...now when I'm playing Tropico things are a bit different... [ 11-16-2002, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Here's a fun link that takes issue with BFP, terrorism and the American gun market, with a quick blurb on your big brother who is about to get a tad bigger....this link should not alarm any current gun owners as we all realize Congress is only seeing green on this issue...however, anyone who may be interested in these topics should take a look. http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/gunland.html

quote: The if-they-don't-do-it-then-I-wont-either-excuse is quite a strong barrier against such measures I agree...I think the Kyoto Accord is a good example of this...I don't know the particulars but I believe when the flag ship of the free market acts the druken fool and withdraws from an idea that is working to address a growing crisis it adds to this mentality...and really sets a good idea back several steps.... quote: It would be ironic, since the commies were/are among the worst polluters. The forests in Siberia were decimated and the steel foundries emitted quite some smoke. It seems that Western European countries have some of the strictest environment protection laws that you can find. It remains to be seen who can do the most damage. It seems compaines are falling over themselves to find places they can take over and deregulate. I think Western Europe leads the way in a number of area's.... quote: Technology isn't a cure and much less a faith. Higher productivity and cleaner production methods allow to maintain our current level of wealth or even increase it (I think you too deem it important since you don't seem to like poverty very much), while at the same time reduce the impact procution and consumption have on the ecosystem Well this seems sporatic and when regulation becomes too strict the capital will migrate to unprotected area's for some good ol' slash and burn. quote: IMO the problem is that the economy works on a global scale while lawmaking and enforcement still work on national level. This allows companies to evade strict rules on environment for example. Organisations like the UN, the WTO etc. can make rules and even condemn countries who break them but they cannot enforce them. I think sooner or later we will need a democratic worldfederation or something like that. That's what I advocate. People here are scared that these organizations are going to take away their rights when really the objective would be to secure them..... I plan on studing the WTO extensivly....so far they have been maruding across the planet unchecked with sometimes violent results. quote: Agree. Some large corporations have larger turnovers than some countries' GDP. They definitely have nearly the same amount of power that gov'ts usually enjoy. That's actually my problem with Libertarians. They want to keep gov't small and in check since you cannot trust people with power (I agree here), but if the same bunch of people calls itself a corporation then they should be free to do whatever they want. Regardless of the fact that they might wield a greater power than the gov't of some small country. And like you said, these people are usually not elected by the people they affect with their actions. I have a love hate relationship with the Liberatians for exactly this reason...I think their ideoligy has been infiltrated by con men who really don't understand current realities or who aren't really working for liberty. quote: On top of that the soviet system was quite a far cry from what Marx had envisioned. Yup....I am not familiar enough with Marx to throw my support behind the idea. But I do know that my country has been brainwashed into looking at the Soviet Union as "Communism" when really it was an oppressive hybrid of various ideologies much like the current free market. But that's how this country thinks...all or nothing. quote: Education means high productivity and high productivity means wealth. That's why education is so important. I think poor people should be granted access to education to give them a fair chance, but what they do with it or if they even want it remains their choice. It's "make your choice, pay the price" IMO. The funny thing about education is it grows on you and I believe that most citizens in this country never had a need for it....but education is now being pushed and I think it will be interesting to see what happens. But yeah if they don't want to use it then so be it. And if they really don't want to do anything then there is a problem. quote: The lacking diversity of information channels is indeed quite worrying. Your telling me...I don't know if you get to see what passes for "media" in this country but really it is just a corporate soap box spewing fear, economists of the status quo, nationalism, a "progressive" social view because they hire a few other ethnicities...bla bla bla... I'm not scared of the world but I am terrified of what these people represent. quote: Remember that those who withold knowledge from you, do it because they want to be your masters. Wow, that sounds dramatic, doesn't it? Yes...and it's what lies under the happy face of the "free press". quote: Of course they do. Well who doesn't? Wouldn't you agree that I have a point with the whole risky investment thing? Yesin theory. quote: The pseudo free market we have today indeed deserves some bashing. Well in these parts you're un-American if you don't fall in and goose step along with the happy face into the glorious "New World Order" quote: It just makes me sick... It makes me angry... quote: The reality is that these people are uneducated and unproductive. The only jobs they can do are those you described. It was the same thing in the west when the industrial revolution started. In the process societies became richer and more educated and people began to ask for freedom/political participation and later cleaner environment. Do you think it is right for companies to treat the indigenous personal like cattle? Is it ok to keep them from unionizing by coercion, intimidation, and sometimes violence? quote: It doesn't add up because I start out with theory (long term growth, market efficiency, public sector etc.) and then compare it with what we have in reality. That way I see where reality differs from theory and how the problems could be addressed. Perfect competition, complete rationality are models/assumptions. We cannot expect to fully implement them but we can try to get the real situation closer to that in the models. This increases efficiency and since the pie grows larger as a result, poverty can decrease, depending on how it is divided. I considered joining a free market/competition oriented political party but several events in the last few months showed that the party doesn't live up to what it stood for when it was founded more than 150 years ago. Maybe a degree in economics will increase my credibility but it wont certainly decrease the rampant nepotism we have in this country. One can still try however. A person is forced to try if they are moral and care about people....this planet is all we got...the stakes are global. I think we already are seeing the emergence of global organizations that are trying to fix things.around these parts all weve got is the Green party (this is quite an accomplishment considering the monopoly of American politics).so I joined. If something better comes along I may have to go that wayso far the people Ive met are highly intelligent and well spoken. They recognize the growing threat of this free market to sovereignty and ecological realities and are dedicated to promoting a healthy globalization [ 11-16-2002, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: Individual Self Government is what this country was meant to be. Well these days it's just isn't profitable to leave the people to themselves... One function I believe government needs to reestablish is as barrier to any force that turns people into things to be used and discarded when it is no longer profitable etc etc etc And whose example are they going to follow? Celebrities, sports stars, politicians, and executives who never fail to sink just that extra bit lower? Regurgitated over and over again because media can't find a real story....sorry parents but youre not really in charge anymore.... quote: Pollution is an externality, which means that polluters don't have to pay those who they damage and thus there is nothing to prevent pollution from rising. In theory the correct policy would be to estimate the dollar value of the damages caused by pollution and tax pollution by that amount (and clean up the damage with the proceeds). This would bring private and social costs in line and result in a socially optimal amount of pollution. This is a huge problem that has to be addressed. Since the people who call the shots can't seem to choose the hard right over the easy wrong another force has to intervene. And Ill tell you if it takes the commies to save the planet.it would be ironic. A belief that technology is cure all for the environment is ultimately a gamble....that's the bottom line....and I don't believe faith is a responsible position given the current climate of super greed and all around poor ethics that infest business and all its wonderful analytical establishments. I question the current economic format when crossing the lines of personal and state sovereignty is just "doing business" I further question this idea when it has controlling interest in systems of thought and de facto media monopoly. In America corporations are seeking to fill every aspect of our society if it hasn't done so already and I don't believe this is healthy. Parents, communities, schools...reality...is taken over by business....and those people are defiantly not elected.... quote: There's nothing ironic about that. It always happens when the commies take power. Would you say an accurate description of the Soviet Union's economy as being a form of state controlled capitalism? quote: I think education plays a key role here to assure that poor people can participate in the political and social live of a country and be productive. However if they don't care to about that, they get what they deserve. I don't believe in forcing people to success. How about forcing them further into poverty? quote: Having choices (in every aspect) is what makes life worthwile. Of course this is also linked with resposibility. Well here in the US of A we are all about the former.....as long as it isn't politics, mass media, or mass transit.... quote: where you have a choice I can only imagine.... quote: These two strategies are not mutually exclusive. I'd say they are complementary. Strenghening international institutions/democracy/welfare helps to prevent attacks but it has some serious problems. I know but if we got people really thinking hard along those lines I believe it would ultimately save lives, money, and time....but this is the land of guns, guts, and god....not really...most people don't want a war but they can't help being scared with a government of deceit and a media selling tales of good vs evil....hero's and villains....thats when they aren't telling stories of a snake attack in some small town and why you should be concerned.... I am forced to ask who this system favors and why. quote: Another advantage of having a wealthy class of people is that they are fully prepared to lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want....moving democracy away from the people and eroding a culture formed on higher ideals... I don't bash the idea of a free market...just the joke of the one we got today. quote: Even a monopoly has some sort of competition, namely by proto firms. If the incumbent company sets it's prices too high, a new company will enter the market. To allow something like that to happen, you have to assure easy entry into markets. I think the market could be a great thing if it weren't run by losers who shape the market reality into what they think is acceptable without consulting anyone but their peers. quote: they just can try to persuade people Come on. When the entire market (goods, services, media) is dominated by multi nationals that have outsourced most going on all production to a third world sh*t hole...pay the people crap...piss on the environment because they played lets make a deal with a dictator....and I'm left buying a shirt made in Guam by women who are treaded like cattle....shoes made by children that works more hours then I do, and a car that is a collection of parts made god knows where with an American brand name stuck on it as some kind of joke.I dont see the persuasion I see the reality. I think your talking ideal setup not reality....everything is being filtered into the system so in effect my "choice" has been incorporated and I'm left with no real options...oh wait....there are multiple type of toilet paper..and diet cherry coke is truly an amazing concoction.... Sorry I can't help the sarcasm its not directed at you personally. You seem to be very knowledgeable and I think yours to the best feedback Ive gotten on this subject...it just isn't adding up. [ 11-15-2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Well I think I missed the superhero thing....but I went GI JOE all the way....the kids in the neighborhood would get together with our fake guns and turn the block into a war zone...of course these engagements often degenerated into battles over who was dead.... When we got older we would bash each other with padded sticks D&D style....a game shared by the kids in both places I grew up. Spawn was cool for a while. Hope this is works for the topic.

I'm gonna regret this I'm sure.... quote: keep hearing about how unstable things are and how we will inevitably be cast down, but I don't see any sign of this happening. Seams more like wishful thinking then anything else. So this current reccession thingy that was at first supposed to recover like magic....hasn't....and the curret desire to liberate vast quantities of oil...er....poeple doesn't ring a bell? And I suppose a growing collection of personel from all over world ready to put their personal satey on line by showing up at WTO and G-8 meetings to face a hostile police force doesn't mean a thing eh? That's just off the top....are you realy that blind? quote: but you're not making much sense Well perhaps not to you but I don't count that as much of a loss.... quote: evil militaristic warmongering conservative view There are large sectors of "conservative" America who do not agree with imperialism....or to say euphemistically...never ending police actions etc. Yup...I'm against super concentrations of wealth....it corrupts people, institutions, and reality....just look at media, politics, and notions of corporate governance...if we could get them to stop subverting government and mocking a free press I suppose I would be happy. But we most definitely have got to comprehensively remove money from politics to restore legitimacy to this system..and to get the politicians to focus on their job and not making money for the next election. We then have to move to insure real checks on political corruption by creating effective agencies to police these criminals who walk around in nice suits and have little American flags pined to their lapels handing out bribes and jobs.... We have a duty to refocus media back to objective and investigative work an open the most important market of all....the one of ideas. Give choice to the people by expanding forums for different political parties and let the chips fall. We need to get the local populations in a potential economic "investment" area to be equal partners in the decision making process. We have to decentralize power and enforce ecological common sense over short term profit motives. Obviously this is against everything you believe in so I won't be put out when you poo poo these ideas. But if we want to revitalize this country and seek to protect the world I think these would be good places to start. These idea are an effort to put government back in the hands of people..the people government is supposed to be about in the first place.we can have the republic, a better and more responsible economy, and keep our individualism in the workplace and at home.but people have to start thinking realistically about where the real threats areand what kinds of changes are meaningful and inclusive. [ 11-14-2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: OK, list me the countries that hate Canada. Then list me the countries that hate the USA. Then tell me why we need a gazillion tanks and choppers and warships. You better be careful....were still angry at our ÔÇ£peacenikÔÇØ neighbors to the north that prove guns and people can coexist without a mountain of casualties.... If this Iraq thing doesn't go through we may just decide that Bin Laden is hiding in your neck of the woods quote: If you actually think that Lotharr is right, then this country is indeed in trouble. moo ha ha I never claimed to be right....I leave that honor for you. [ 11-14-2002, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: These guys never go! but are always ready to send someone else Just in case anyone missed it the first time check out America's "warriors" and how they unserved...er...dissserved....uh...punked out? No Bob that's not the kind of spin we're looking for on this one... No comment? No comment. http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html

quote: Of course not, the columnist you quoted attacks the 13 year old for taking a cheap shot at Daschle, then precedes to take a cheap shot at Bush. Hypocrits hypocrits hypocrits. Really I just wanted to demonstrate the point, counter point, crap that I find mostly useless....I only posted what Moyers said because I watch that whole show and he had two Harvard PhDs on talking about what happens to a country when it declares for Empire.then a real piece of investigative journalism on Wal Mart and their abuse of labor. I found it exhilarating in contrast to the thought vacuum created by corporate mass media (and he does make a hell of a point) This isn't conspiracy theory...because conspiracy would imply some wrong doing....the consolidation of media is considered progress by the in crowd. quote: New blood? Nope, I've been registered for quite some time. It's just that I decided to see if the "vets" are still araound . I was only talking about this thread. quote: The inevitable? What would that be and why is it ironic? The inevitable collapse or implosion by a system that can't really go any other way....currently I believe that the idea of a forever expanding economy is not possible in the reality of a finite biosphere and limited resources. It would be ironic because all those "enfranchised" that are high on the crack of the "free market" may end up getting their heads chopped off (figuratively...hopefully) or wrecking the planet....but I'm sure theyll sing....scream...then whimper...the praises of freedom and democracy until the end..... quote: You always have to be suspicious about any source you read, no matter if it's a corporate funded think tank or an environmental pressure group I guess I'd rather be on the side of caution when the stakes are global. But I would agree with the idea of objectivityhowever mainstream noiseermedia only focuses on market issues and that is wrong. quote: It is also true in this case, people get the gov't they deserve and nothing better. No....when you have a narrow group that control the highways and byways of information, then do there utmost to insure election of those who share their views.....once those people are elected (imagine that) they make it as difficult as possible for any new groups to participate effectively....you have millions of people who don't want to vote because instinctually they know it doesn't matter anyway..... I believe Americans via corporate mass media are taught to equate "democracy" with various toiletry options....not politics. Alternatives are starting to come out and I hope this trend will continue....but they face the enormous task of dismantling two entrenched political institutions that represent so many different ideologies that it clear why today it comes down to ....good, bad, all, or nothing type thinking...a political climate of emotions and symbols that truly bring out the best in people...and in the end do not serve anyone but those who perpetuate this false notion of "choice". quote: Sorry, don't know what you're speaking about I hope you never do. quote: Fortress America has certainly a better chance of protecting it's citizens than undefended America Well I guess we gotta part ways on this....I think we should be rigorously strengthening international institutions that promote democracy, justice, and peace....not hunker down...send out the legion every ten years or so, and have the best damn black op network on the market and hope for the best. quote: It's not revolutionary at all. It has been around as long as money. Progressive taxes are a rather new idea. Don't agree that it's stupid, it's just a different notion of fairness Call it what you will but I believe wealth hording is ultimately destructive....but you keep the lingo changing and the average citizen ignorant and maybe it can work.... quote: Hu? Like say a huge multi national corporation is the liquid terminator....running around killing those who get in the way but accomplishing the mission....then you blow it to hell with some kind of legislation. We can then observe the little globs that start coming back together slowly at first but quickly in the end....a bit goofy but a good visual of corporate consolidation. quote: I think a free society should allow people to buy that shiny thing if they think they want another one. Who are you to press your values about usefulness or appropriateness on others? I'm not pressing anything....the press is coming from the value machine of free market ideology that is forcing its way into every medium it can infiltrate with an army of PR reps...happy meals... heavy tank divisions....ooops...and smiles.I meant smiles. quote: PS: What are you studying? Nothing definite yet....but law, sociology, or economics are possibilities. Maybe after a few more years Ill chill out but I dont knowI think Jag would agree that the liberal brainwashing will only get worse..moo ha ha.. [ 11-14-2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Jag I think we've heard that before.... Anyway $ilk...food for thought... quote: http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2002/update092502.html Terry Krepel / Conweb watch If that passage is true, it appears thus far that Kyle Williams, the homeschooled13-year-old who writes a weekly column for WorldNetDaily, is being trained up to be yet another rhetoric-laden conservative columnist regurgitating what other conservatives have written. Check the couple dozen or so other conservative columnists at WND for comparison purposes Both moves make sense. Boortz, an Atlanta-based conservative radio host, joins the stable of conservative radio hosts WND is trying to turn into columnists, and Aldrich gets to hang with similarly Clinton-obsessed cohorts at NewsMax. So, is anyone getting the better deal? Well, Aldrich has already descended into recycling; among Aldrich's posts is a post-Sept. 11 column he originally wrote for WND, in which he declares that "My job and the job of all conservatives now, is to keep liberals out of power as long as humanly possible." Surprisingly, the column actually acknowledges this, one of the very few times you'll see the word "WorldNetDaily" at NewsMax. Are we really getting anywhere....no.

quote: Did you ever read David Weber's Honor Harrington series? No, but tomorrow I'll have my library get it. I'm not really interested in answering your other points because our beliefs are so fundamentally different it would be a waste of time.... I do think you should consider seeking employment with the WTO or some other noble institution like the Iraqi parliament....somewhere that is in tune with your fundamental beliefs in human nature.

Late myself.... US Army 1998-?, Supply Daddy, Cav Scout, E-5

Oh yeah Jag and our heath care is doing so much better.....one out of five Americans doesn't even have any, (good solution) plus costs are soaring....and what is happening to social security....what social security? Exactly. Oh yes....any socialist idea's must be "evil" and "anti-American"....so says corporate funded "think tanks".....and their blathering choir of idiots on CNN and FOX with the rest of the mass media that is ultimately owned by the same parent companies....you spoke once of sheeple didn't you? The Soviet economy was state controlled capitalism...American mainstream thought has always lied about that....there was always a profit motive...their media was state controlled....our media is "private" owned and state regulated....they had one party....we have "two"....dominated by centrist policy makers who owe their elections to the same "private" media owners and corporate donors who put them in there.a circle of money and BS. At least the Soviets were honest in their deception. Anti-Americanism and the left is linked by radicals during Vietnam.....I don't think burning an American flag will ultimately serve the nation but I am more concerned about the people's right to do just that...if in the end it serves to wake up "sleepy land" to a nightmare of death and destruction....so be it. I think we would all agree that Vietnam was a tragic and foolish mistake. Those radicals did this country a favor and anyone who denies that is full of crap. Right radicals have clashed with the feds more dramatically then the left in recent years.....because they absolutely will not be tread upon....I'm not too familiar with ideological positions but at least they understand the gravity of situation......they don't burn flags because theyve picked up a new one....I'm not buying that un-American left crap so lets move on and seek to understand the real threats to liberty and freedom. [ 11-12-2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Thank God we get some new blood up in here..... quote: The irony is that many people who complain about the unfair treatment and poor conditions in 3rd world countries also whine about companies relocating operations to said countries which gives these people jobs and income. It is impossible to please everybody but some people just cannot be pleased no matter what you do. The ultimate irony may be that "capitalism" is only prolonging the inevitable by exporting reality...shielded by a monopolized "free press". I am a first year student....and that doesn't make me privy to much but the occasional emotional outburst sheathed in "logic"....but...if one, anyone... cares to look, they can see that something is hiding under the white wash of "free market progress"...and it doesn't resemble anything like liberty..... I am not impressed by Neocon ideas that flood the mass media via "objective" corporate funded "think tanks" of merchant princes who spew toxic ideologies under the happy face of a "free market"....no thanks....the burning frame of a wonderful future has pushed too many "anti-American" American thinkers to looking a bit deeper then FOX news would think is appropriate. quote: This problem is directly linked with what I said above The idea of representation of the people by the people is moving farther and farther away from....."the people".....I suppose once upon a time that was ok....but today I think we could see a serious problem from those "undesirables" (props to DL) who want a say in government....they really should have just left it to the white land owners.....why cant people realize property is more important then ethicslike duh!?!? quote: One could say Opiates for the masses One could also say seething hostility...150 million strong....I don't think they are all watching Friends reruns with the happy face...... quote: It isn't safe but safer than without the military. If the respective agencies stay vigilant the risk of being bombed is much lower than if you have no significant protection, you can hardly argue about that. Consent of the governed....on a global scale....I don't think God will bless fortress America. quote: I assume that you're hinting at the regressive sales/consumption taxes here. Well, I agree. Having a given fraction of your income taxed away hurts a poor person more than a rich one. Yupthis is the best part of a whole screwed up ideology....it's tragic in consequence but revolutionary in effect.....stupidity and greed go hand in hand....what I can say. power corrupts.... quote: Crushing monopolies usually hase these effects Did you ever watch T2? quote: That old Chinese curse should be well known by now but I'll say it anyway: "May you live in interesting times Why can't that be at the hands of scientific / human advancement rather then.. look dear, they some how managed to reinvent that shiny thing for the twenty fifth time WOW!!! Lets buy a new one!!!only realize the their credit is maxed out.