Takvah

Good Lord Kalshion, do us all a favor and take an english course or two. As for the Soros stuff, I am sickened by the fact that I have to get a PHONY CONSERVATIVE out of the White House by voting for a LIBERAL. However, you must be the most naive person on the planet if you do not understand that George W. Bush and the people that backed him also "bought" the White House. WHOEVER IS ELECTED FROM HERE ON OUT HAS TO SPEND UPWARDS OF $200 MILLION DOLLARS TO BECOME THE PRESIDENT and it's only going to get worse. Soros' contributions are drops in the bucket when you get into how many people are OWED when a CANDIDATE buys his office. Good Lord... wake up kid.

I don't believe that it was a bulletproof vest. There are a lot of circumstantial points to coincide with that picture, such as Bush saying, "Let me finish," when nobody was interrupting him. It also explains all of the "Uh and duh" moments that the President had. There is also the strange CNN video of the underlying "voice" during the D-Day events in France. You want a Manchurian Candidate? Bush is surely it. He gets his energy policy from oil companies and what happens? Prices soar. Same goes for pharmaceuticals and virtually every other industry that Bush has gotten involved with. Well ok, sorry... not Bush... his puppeteers. I expect if this debate goes like the last one, some of the more radical elements of my party are going to start looking for golden parachutes. I have no doubt that these guys faced with ousting are going to get pretty damn desperate. I only hope they don't do something really stupid like stage a terrorist event. Pretty sad when you can't put that past your government isn't it? Hell I imagine Jaguar could stomach a few dead Americans for the sake of a Bush victory. Look, neocons and their organizations like the PNAC have been wishing for just this kind of environment in the world since the time of Kennedy. Back then they wanted to kill a few Americans and make it appear as if Castro was responsible. Scary stuff and a scary time. The stakes are so much higher this time around. Boohoo Bush was tired... I LIVE HERE... Bush did ten to thirty minute stints in places around Ft. Pierce to Miami... WHOOPDEEDOO. It was laughable what he did down here. I realize that it was a debate that put Bush thirty minutes past his bedtime but don't blame it on HURRICANE VICTIMS!

So I'm sitting there watching the debate last week and I look to my brother and I say, "is Bush high or is he waiting for the information to be fed into his earpiece?". Hysterically enough it seems that while Kerry was accused of bringing a "cheat sheet" (which turned out to be a pen or something) into the debate there is some startling banter and a photo which appears to show that the President had something attached to his back. The obvious jokes are that it was Cheney's hand but the suspicion is that Bush had a device attached to his back that let his handlers feed him his lines. CNN apparently managed to pick up on a transmission that Bush seemed to follow in a speech he gave. So, how weird is this? I mean if this is true the man is such a puppet that he cannot speak without prompting. It just goes to show why the guy had to have Dick Cheney go into the 9/11 Commission hearing with him. I am so embarrassed that I voted for this clown. At least I get to remedy that in under a month. Read the story here: W Wired? and expect more stories to start being generated about this... HOPEFULLY.

Pffft... when it was convenient to believe the CIA their reports were true. Now that it is not convenient it's a crack house of Clinton holdovers. I gotta say Jaguar, you never cease to at the very least make me chuckle. Talk about moving the goal posts. I loved your latest batch of speculative innuendo... just priceless. Oh and Grizzle, you almost make crow sound tasty! Later

Amen Grizzle.

ROFLMAO... are you talking about the Bush assertion that there were WMDs in Iraq or Michael Moore? "SOME PEOPLE do have a sense of intelligence and refuse to listen to the lie's that where sprouted and the information that was falsified," were you referring to me? That was very kind of you to point out. I didn't bite off on the BS Bush was spewing or the garbage that you and Jaguar have counted as facts for the past year. Oh what a beautiful day! For all of your cries of LIAR where it concerns Moore I hope you'll step up and say that Bush is no better. Peace

Yeah right.

Cheney was not impressive at all. I expected more from him. The very fact that Edwards held his own and flustered Cheney shows me he is much less Doberman than Chihuahua making a racket but not having the teeth or the balls to really bite. I was a fan of Cheney's for some time but when he talked about them cutting the spending on weapons systems when it was HE that requested many of the cuts that the Kerry agreed to it was just laughable. The best part of the debate was when Edwards sunk his teeth into Cheney with a smile and disarmed old uncle Dicky over the gay marriage thing. Edwards also made great points with Halliburton and the distortions of the Bush campaign. Truly priceless.

I'll be there, with a porkchop tied round my neck. Takvah

Well ain't this great. First I get to watch Farenheit 9/11 again (not that I need the refresher, it's just so damn entertaining) and then I get to see Dick Cheney try to reconstitute George W. Bush. Man, you have to love this political season. Thank god they're going to be seated, poor Dick's ankles would have swollen *snickers*. Can you imagine the picture that would have been painted with Cheney being old and fat and Edwards being young and vibrant? At least we'll be able to soak up some of the substance without the spectacle of that comparison. Oh and if you haven't seen Farenheit 9/11 it's well worth renting. No matter how you slice and dice it Moore makes a compelling movie but even more he makes something that you'll ENJOY watching. Say what you like about Moore he has a wicked sense of humor.

Amen nomad.

That's just the point the economy is totally being supported by the real estate sector. Why? Because all other investment options SUCK. You can't do the safe thing and invest in CDs and the like because interest rates blow. The stock market is crap because you never know when the shoe is going to drop on a company you invested in (bogus P&L statements). Property has swelled in price because of low rates, you can afford to get a higher loan so sellers are taking advantage and selling their property for higher prices. It has been a sellers market in virtually all areas of the country because people are investing in real estate. Good for you with the business Jaguar but other sectors of the economy are suffering and the jobs that Bush lost versus the ones he is adding are apples to oranges. I'm not thrilled with Kerry either, hell I'm a Republican but as Grizzle so aptly said, I cannot support this guy's WHACKO policies either. Looks like the polls are starting to turn too... no wonder why Rush Limbaugh was screaming like a shrew Friday. As for your comments Jaguar, it is typical that you would call someone a "child" because they don't see things your way. Frankly, I think it's you that is the child. Most people voting for Bush want him to do things differently in the next term... this makes them fools. Why? Because a fool is someone that does the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. I voted for Bush once, that was enough.

Kerry is willing to turn over control of this country to FOREIGN INTERESTS? WHAT KERRY HAS SAID ALL ALONG IS THAT AMERICA MUST BE CONSCIOUS OF THE FACT THAT THE WORLD IS WATCHING. We tout ourselves as the leaders of the free world. We say that we are acting from a position of compassion and morality even when we have to use force to protect our way of life. All Kerry is saying is that he would act within that MORAL COMPASS so that the world did not color us as corrupt as those we would seek to destroy. Meanwhile, back at the ranch... the same people that color Kerry as a patsy for the UN are saying that the CHINESE OF ALL PEOPLE need to assist us in negotiations with North Korea. HELLO!? I can't think of one nation INCLUDING SADDAM HUSSEIN'S IRAQ that would relish seeing us destroyed more than CHINA. Talk about turning the wellbeing of this country over to an enemy. They sell guns and weapons to our enemies but hey what the hell, come on and sit down at this table and negotiate with us in our best interests. Good Lord. Hussein is gone for several reasons but if I was a betting man the major thing that got him into the old frying pan was trading his oil in Euros. Man that pissed off George's buddies and also threw a wrench in the monopoly the dollar holds over oil. You wanna know why the French and the Germans are pissed... that's why. Europe wants to COMPETE with us by uniting their currencies and then we play dirty pool like this. I really wish some of you would look a little deeper than Fox News. Peace

I happen to believe that the US should have the ability to act pre-emptively. I believe that the President's hands should not be tied when dealing with threats. Where Bush's "doctrine", where it regards pre-emption falls flat on it's face is in it's lack of consideration with regard to two factors that must be well thought. One the US must be justified in its actions both at home and ABROAD. If you are going to preach morality you better exercise it. The war in Iraq is neither moral nor justified. The facts are what the world sees and with NO WMDs (regardless of the gnashing of teeth of the neo-cons) we appear to be opportunists. Secondly, we must understand that in acting in such a way we are opening ourselves up for a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" philosophy on the global stage. Iran threatened a pre-emptive strike against our troops in Iraq saying they felt threatened by them. If that is justification for our wars why would it not be enough justification for theirs? North Korea and other nations are acquiring nuclear weapons precisely for this reason. Obviously if a nation has them our balls suddenly shrivvel and lodge themselves in our bellies. If I were a nutcase dictator or a communist regime I would be damned sure I had a nuke or two and the means to menace the world. I mean look at how effectively it has defanged Bush. Now with regard to North Korea, I have to laugh at the people saying that we need these negotiations to involve China. It shows me that you have very short memories. It also shows me that some of you have a very limited grasp of politics. First of all let's just get China off the table. I will remind you all that China relished holding one of our reconnaisance aircrafts and its crew under Bush's watch. They have no feelings of benevolence for this nation and to think that they are aiding us and not secretly saying to North Korea "Get what you can out of these guys," is sheer idiocy. I love you guys that say, "We don't need the UN!" but suddenly we need CHINA?! Where the hell is your consistency? Now onto North Korea. I have to laugh because somehow I think you guys are missing the point of what it is that North Korea is doing. North Korea did not acquire nukes for the sake of going to war with us. Quite the contrary, they have obtained these weapons to EXTORT US (and to a lesser degree Japan). All they want is MONEY. They want us to talk to them alone (and I think it would be better for us if we did) because they know WE HAVE THE CASH. This is nothing more than a Sopranos episode being played out on the world stage. They want us to PAY THEM so that they can feed their people, continue to maintain their power and appear to have bested the US. END OF STORY. When you involve China you just have another hand out looking for something in return, like I dunno... Taiwan maybe? I can just imagine the poor bastards involved in these negotiations that are hearing, "We'll help with Korea but we'll also need to crack down on Taiwan," it's a damn nightmare. Whoever deals with North Korea is going to end up in the final analysis paying off that pot belly dictator and if it's Bush, Jaguar and his ilk will tout it as a great outcome. If it is Kerry that ponies up with the cash it will be cowardice. I on the otherhand will accept that it is the reality of the world. North Korea doesn't believe that it can destroy us, it just has to talk the talk and then wait for the check to clear. Look at Pakistan and their boy Khan. Nomad is dead on, there has been no outcry from this government to see justice done in regard to this man. Why? Because frankly we can't demand jack of the Pakistanis. We aren't benevolent we're just STUCK. These are our great allies and if the matter was looked into I am sure that the Pakistani government KNEW what was going on and likely collected a hefty sum exporting their nuclear expertise. Bilateral negotiations with North Korea would be better than no negotiations and Pyongyang knows that we won't get serious with them until it is down to us and them. When I buy a car I allow the salesman to make my first offer, after that I tell the guy to get me the sales manager rather than indulge them in their stupid back and forth. North Korea is simply demanding the same thing and until we agree the threats will continue and we will be perceived as weak and indecisive. We are paying for Russia to dismantle and contain their nuclear materials, we will have to do the same with North Korea while stating plainly for the world to hear (and likely through binding treaty) that we will not attack them. Bush has not been a leader in dealing with North Korea. He has stuck his head in the sand and allowed the rhetoric to continue which has only made our asian allies nervous as all hell. Peace

Bleh. As for the debate I think Bush was status quo... he was low key in his responses and behaved like a child during Kerry's rebuttals jittering, chewing on his lip and otherwise looking uncomfortable. If that had been a press conference rather than a debate (and Presidents should be suject to these kinds of questions daily... George isn't because he doesn't handle the press) he would have stomped off all pissed and that would have been the end of it. Kerry on the otherhand who has been totally off message for months now had an opportunity to articulate himself. Now I don't care what the people on this forum have to say about the flip flops. I could name 50 things that this President has flip flopped on... I am talking about the substance of the debate. I am talking about the perceptions of the candidates and their ability to make points. There will not be major poll swings until Kerry shows consistency by making this a 3-0 debate season and continuing to hammer his points. Now I can't wait for Cheney v. Edwards. Poor Dick wanted to do it sitting down... guess he can't handle standing for 90 minutes, his ankles must swell (what a picture of vitality). Or maybe he understands that he is old, small and weak looking next to the vibrant Edwards. Oh well should be interesting. [ 10-01-2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Takvah ]

Kalshion all the networks covered it live. I think Kerry was articulate and showed that he had a firm grasp on the issues that face the President. Mr. Bush was as always working from the emotion rather than the substance. How many times can you hear "it's hard work" as an excuse for utter and complete failure? Talk about screwing the pooch.

I appreciate the kind words nomad, thank you. Florida is a beautiful place to live (at least my area to the north of West Palm is to me) and we know when we live here that these things can and do happen. It is a real pain in the neck to have two of these things land within ten miles of your house within a month but it happened. Looking at it on the bright side I have my home and not much damage, some of my neighbors were not so lucky. The sailboat is still floating and only has minimal damage that insurance will cover. At the very least I can tell the grandkids, "I remember when...".

Jag- He promised to bring our troops home and to use them responsibly, indicating in his saying this that his predecessor had not. He promised to be responsible with his tax cuts and that it would be giving back to the people the SURPLUS that he felt the government was not entitled to (I happened to agree with that at the time). The problem is that he has not rescinded the tax cuts to pay for the wars he is waging be it against LEGITIMATE targets like terrorists or for that matter to enrich his corporate buddies in the finishing of his daddy and uncle Dickie's war. I pay my bills. I do not borrow myself into debt to win the love of my kids or my wife whereas Bush has not stepped up and said, "I am sorry we have a war to fight and have had several natural disasters and therefor I need to end the tax cuts." (I'm not saying increase taxes, I am saying that we need to stop loaning people money against SURPLUSES THAT AREN'T MATERIALIZING and that is what your TAX CUT IS!)Instead we have him pandering for votes by ignoring the spiraling defecit to BUY votes rather than sound, CONSERVATIVE, fiscal policies that would in the long term strengthen the dollar and lower the burdens that will be placed on our kids and all Americans when somebody has the strength of character to pay this all off. I do quite well and have all the things in this life that I could want. I am not rich and at the same time I do not expect government to bail my ass out. I have damage to my home from the storms that totals less than my deductible but is still several thousand dollars (and I'm not including things they reimburse like evacuating my family to Tampa etc that are also covered) and I have yet to call FEMA and ask them for the money. Checks are being written like mad for people that make a lot more money than I do... I guess it all depends on your moral compass. So when you make a veiled derogatory statement that would indicate that I "want" something from government akin to a handout I would have to say if anybody is afraid of doing their part it is likely more a burden that you carry than I do. Likely if you had damage you would say, "I pay my taxes and therefor I am owed." The fact is that not all of us pay our fair share and I would dare say you fall into that category. When wondering what it is that I want from government I would suggest instead you consider what it is that you GET from government while believing you stand on your own two feet and require NOTHING. Fighting with you is like a dog barking at a squirrel in a tree. The dog barks and the squirrel squawks and in the end neither of them can do a thing to the other be it change their mind or kick their ass... but I hope I managed to explain my reasoning. I'm going to vote and hope that change happens and that in another four years some true Conservative will step up and be a man and deal with the nation's problems (while understanding not every Republican will vote for someone just because he's a Republican). If you believe that Bush has done this so be it... I'm not about changing your mind but I don't see where he has come through on anything he promised. We are not safer, we've just been lucky. You talk about no attacks since 9/11 but Bush's slow responses to intelligent countermeasures that would make us safer indicates that maybe he lacks a true desire to see us safer while at the same time saying he does. He has gone kicking and screaming on everything EXCEPT the infringements to our civil liberties contained in the Patriot Act. Whatever you have to say it's been three years and the most powerful military on the planet under the leadership of G. W. Bush has failed to apprehend and/or destroy Al Qaeda. That's just the facts and no amount of candy coating and wishful thinking is going to change that. Even Bush and Cheney say that Al Qaeda is a threat (to keep the people afraid and voting for them) but what I take from their words is that they have FAILED and it's time to give somebody that isn't about fear mongering for election purposes a shot at FINISHING what these guys apparently can't. Another 30 plus kids dead in Iraq today... yeah it's a democratic haven and a brilliant success alright. Saddam needed to go no doubt and the President should have the POWER to destroy LEGITIMATE enemies (without the need to declare war through Congress) when times and circumstances demand it. However, G. W. Bush has shown a reckless disregard for the well-being of America, the lives of our men and women and our reputation by ignoring the facts or in some cases presenting trumped up evidence. You think his intell was legit, many people say it was not and again the facts indicate NO WMDs... not one. YOu can say they are here, there or anywhere whilst SPECULATING but again the FACTS are that we have found NADA. Even if these things were shipped out of Iraq (speaking for speculation's sake) there would have been SOMETHING forgotten or left behind... but nope... nothing. Everything Bush has stood for and promised is a lie. It's a sham. You can look at his campaign promises and then you can look at his actions as President. NOTHING JIVES, not about the war not about his domestic agenda... none of it. If you accept that, fine. Again, I am not about changing a mind that is unchangeable. I however changed my mind and your confrontational style shows that you have no substance to point to... you just throw crap at people and hope it sticks. I can at least respect that your opinion is yours to do with what you will.

Hmmm... I'm going after a President I supported in 2000 because he didn't deliver what he promised to the people either... is that stupid too?

I am not going to talk of politics where it concerns this fleet. I have been cleaning up after a hurricane basically went through my town of Stuart and north. It sucked. No power for four days, sleeping in a tent to stay cool (if 87 degrees is cool) and basically getting the real life back to normal. My B-Day is 9/11 so I took a break from the online thing for a bit. This all said however, I am TDH all the way and had I been around to see the message about the fleet ops this weekend I would have been there. This is not a mess. The fleet just needs to be handled a bit differently from others. I do not believe that we should be absent from fleet ops but I do believe that this is a rogues guild and cannot be treated the same as say Prime or one of these other fleets that is more militaristic. If that's what TDH is then I cannot be a part of it. We suffer with weaker ships and ofcourse that demands a more unified approach to the game from a survival standpoint but there are ways to get that kind of support without alienating the base. Shingen I would suggest that we post a set of rules and that the members can then decide if they can abide by them. I don't like having to upgrade for 20 minutes while a member of this team is asking for assistance. It might be suicide but there is honor in a good death that involves aiding a fellow TDH member. I think if you log onto a server and there is no strife fine take the time to upgrade but in the instances where you get a hail that says, "I need you," protocol is secondary. I like TDH, I think that the exodus from the fleet that is in essence an indictment of the leadership is in poor form. I'm sorry but this is not the way a real fleet would handle things. As TDH we are independents united by our need to survive... so why then would anyone cut off their nose to spite their face for the sake of embarrassing the leadership when perhaps communication and proper reasoning might save the day? You guys want to be a member of a Galcom fleet or an Insurgent fleet or god forbid a Gammulan fleet? TDH is the option for the gamer that isn't so willfully leveraged. I was going to discuss lightening up but maybe some people do need a more firm understanding that TDH while being a guild of mercs and pirates does need an order of operations to get the job done. Shingen I would hope that you would reconsider your decision. CC I would hope that you would try to conform if even a little and Jamotto I always felt GOOD with you out there in the void so throwing your affiliation to the wind strikes me as ill timed and worse impulsive. I will form up on your wing regardless Shingen but there is an opportunity here to still communicate rather than toss our hands to the sky. Damn the fleet that messes with a well gathered TDH... we'll roast them. CIVILITY people... if nothing more grant one another that. Takvah

Wow did you read what you wrote? Desperation, yeah it's all on me LOL. Reading a book by liars is not going to enlighten me. By the way Farenheit 9/11 to be released to DVD 10/05/04. Ouch that's gonna hurt. Desperate, nah... we're just getting to the part where this gets to be fun man. Hang on. Takvah... Takvah... Takvah... its like the mantra O'Neill mumbles while thinking back to the early 70s but only his is Kerry...Kerry...Kerry. It's just a shame that to remove a crook from office I have to go against people that I would have likely sided with politically 8 months ago. Time really changes perspectives, don't it?

Oh my... this is just not looking very good now is it? First we have two officials with the Bush campaign resign because they are in league with the Swiftboat people a "no-no". Then we have the Times reporting this: New York Times: Bush Family, Bush Political Aide Have Close Ties to These Ads. "In a series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high- profile Texas political figures and President Bush (news - web sites)'s chief political aide, Karl Rove. Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election." (NYT, 8/20/04) Then we have it come out that Thurlow is a liar. Thurlow citation indicates enemy fire but he denies ever knowing that he got the citation for acting courageously under fire. Asked for HIS records to be released he says, "NO." Then earlier today we have the report Jamotto linked up, Navy Report Backs Up Kerry Role in Incident Now, we have O'Neill chatting it up with President Nixon about being in Cambodia. Oh my, oh my, oh my... IT'S OVER. O'Neill did he lie to Nixon or to us? Now all that's left to do is finish connecting the dots to Bush's team which is happening. The ad was done by the people that did Bush I's Dukakis ad. The support of the Swifties financially came in the beginning from CLOSE Bush allies. They were prepped by Bush Sr.'s PR handler from the 80s and wow they were even given the SERVICES OF BUSH'S CAMPAIGN COUNSEL, thus far for free! Are you people kidding me? A private group out to set the record straight? Will you finally concede they are anything but or do we have to keep up that charade? Now onto the issues, since this is now a non-issue. Nothing but a boat load of bullshitters in that Swiftvet organization and they're dropping like flies. It's unfortunate that they've been as exploited as the current service personnel in Iraq. They make you feel good, make you think it's right what they're asking you to do and then you find out it's a bunch of BS to protect a guy that WOULDN'T EVEN SERVE HIS TIME IN THE GUARD. Meanwhile our soldiers sit in Iraq and fight so that we can rob the treasury (rebuilding a country we didn't need to attack) to enrich CHOSEN companies that happen to have DEEP ROOTED TIES to the Administration. How this doesn't make sense to some of you I have no idea but follow the money kids, follow the money. Thank God Swiftvets and Vietnam are almost over there is a ton of GOOD STUFF that affects us NOW to get to. Peace

Great article Jamotto. I'll save comments for another thread.

Yeah I think it's great too. I don't have a problem with freeing people. I have a problem with being fed BS in order to get the job done. Big difference my friend. I don't see the Iraqis being given true autonomy, Alawi is a CIA puppet and people knowledgable about Iraq all agree his government is not respected. They also question whether or not Alawi will actually allow for elections in January. The Iraqi coach spoke out too, in regard to Bush. Here are his comments about Bush using this team.

Yeah just like Fox reporting what started this thread yesterday. Even Drudge's log is suddenly without that little entry from yesterday. They keep floating these anal biscuits. I think what needs to be looked at is the background of those advising the Swiftvets. Beyond finding out that Bush and Rove are calling the shots with those guys I have no interest in these dishonored veterans. This is all Kerry should be concerned with, getting the facts out about who these guys are taking money from and doing lipservice for.