street228

quote: The reformation, the crusades etc ALL stemmed from the fact that it was a major religion of the time, and yes, each sect persecuted the others. That is the way of religion. If the above statement is true, it would completely illogical and down right assinine to allow THAT base, to be integrated within judicial process and implimentation of the consequence of that judicial process. quote: One group has all the answers, therefore the others are heretical, Islam is going through the same nonsense, ACCEPT that in it's Holy Book, KILLING the infidel is acceptable, as a matter of fact it is a HOLY duty, just as it was for Christians during the crusades. I agree, AND: if what you say IS true, then the WHOLE arguement that... "the persecution of christians, had no bearing on the proliferation and the exponential growth" ...is null. THE CRUSADES, was ALL about one group of christians integrated within government rule of law, pronouncing judgement on others...biased on a radical religeous interpretation of the teachings of christ. This is the point I made earlier. quote: Christianity has matured over the centuries, sure there are some nuts in there, but they are a VERY SMALL minority, BUT, a majority of Islam believes that the bombings of civilian targets was OK, as a matter of fact, it is AUTHORIZED by the Quran. SO, to call Christians primitive, and then to say stupid things about Islam terrorists is just about insane. The above is also true, to a point. All you have to do is take out the word "MAJORITY of islam" and replace it with "MINORITY of islam" and your argument of facts would not be twisted into a mis representation of those facts. quote: You seem to realize the historical context of the crusades, the reformations, the inquisitions, etc, but you completely FAIL to see that Islam wants NOTHING less then world domination, and will kill ALL of us, if that is what it takes to do it. You seem to think that it is some kind of guerilla war, when in fact, it a religious war coming back from a really long timeout. The above is nothing more than PARANOIA promoted by the neo-con propaghanda machine. The SAME paranoia which spurred 90% of ALL atrocity committed by religeously integrated governments, groups, and individuals throughout history. FACT: THERE ARE LEGITIMATE POLITICAL, ECONOMICAL AND SOCIOLOGICAL reasons behind this conflict. The MINORITY of the islam who are radical enough to justify their actions through their twisted interpretation of the QURAN and are merely ignorant pawns, being used by those using what is readily availiable to combat an overwhelming opponant. RADICALLY RELIGEOUS ideaology is availiable amongst all religeons, ESPECIALLY within the CHRISTIAN philosophy. And are minute, in relation to the whole of either philosophy. quote: Your intolerance of religious beliefs is unbelievable to me, then again, A LOT of your emotional strewn thought processes are unbelievable to me, along with the conspiracy kook stuff just to add to that mystery. I have NO intolerance of religious beliefs!!! As long as the rediculous interpretation they proclaim does not AFFECT ME. The "Three F rule", used to make these laws:(i.e. fair, flexable, and final)... cannot LOOSE it's "flexability" because some moron wants to impose their interpretation of morality on others. I just dont want some jim jones or some other ignorant christian crackpot, putting me or someone else in a prison; because, I refuse to shave my head... or they choose some other lifestyle than ole BUSHs ...jeesh!! Further more, your reference to me being some conspiratorial buff, is unsubstantiated garbage. quote: NOW, that I have taken the thread COMPLETELY off topic, let us put it BACK on topic.I dont see how it can be OFF topic, when the whole articale revolves around the concept of wheather a jurer can use a RELIGIOUSLY biased book, in reference to deciding the fate of an individual being charged by the state. ESPECIALLY when there are RECOGNIZED religeons within this NATION who do NOT even recognize the validity of the book to start with...much less live their lives, by ANY INDIVIDUAL'S interpretation of it. Again, there is NO basis, for integrating the religeous asperations of any group or individual into our judicial process. The point made clearly, as to the why..and on a broad front. NOT "off topic", in the least. I believe, that is just an excuse being used to stop the presentation; as to the "WHY" of my position, and to justify your claims that I hi-jack threads. And THIS is; because, I integrate the WHOLE of the picture..keeping a solid foundation for ALL the positions to which I adhere...equal in their logic and reason. Founded in a solid and "across the board" application of that unified logical base. This is something I have yet to see, from most who post here, who uphold your type of ideaological reasoning. quote: AS A CITIZEN, NO law HAS to be abided by by a juror, a juror can look at a law that has been broken by a defendant and say, the law is insane, NOT guilty. I don't care what the local laws say, I don't care what the prosecutors want, I don't care what the judge has to say about it. How you can not see the above statement, to be as radical as ANY radical(anti-government)statement ever made by a citizen..... and how you can not see the "PRO NEO-CON" (i.e.pro-bushy baby)agenda for the anti constitutional progression it is consistantly proving itself to be.... And how you can denounce being a christian while simultaniously promoting christians to hold a theosophical belief which is in direct conflict, not only to the teachings of christ, but are in direct conformity to the atrocities against freedom ,which this constitution was designed to abate..... I am sorry jag. but there is NO consistancy to your pattern, except pure and unequivical rebuttle of logic. quote: If I make it on to a jury, and find the defendant NOT guilty due to the overreaching, or the stupidity of the law, it is my right and my responsibility to do so, and if I look to the bible for guidance, then it should NOT have ANY effect on the outcome of the trial or be used to retry or anything else. It is MY right as a JUROR, to use anything that I feel will allow me to come to just and right decision. Be it a law book, a biblem a Torah, A quran, the constitution, the 10 commandments, WHATEVER. The government is SERVILE to it's citizens, and if the states case is lost because one of it's citizens chose to look at a bible, then so be it, the state LOST, end of case, just as the defense would have to live with the decision as well. The difference, the state CANNOT retry the case, whereas the defense can take it to a higher court. I must say I admire your position here, and agree 100% with your decision to admonish the law in as objective a way as possible. more power to you. but the LAST paragraph is ONLY true by semantics...you know it and so do I. If they want you...they can find a law which can be applied to hang you..If a jurer is against the whole of the path being pursued..he WILL be dismissed, and a more suitable replacement situated in his seat. there are over 168000 pages of fine print "of law and revision of law" EVERY YEAR. (sarcasim>> we need more) It would take 100 LARGE firms, about 5 years to decipher those made in one year. And 75% of the american citizens cannot afford the fees required to appeal ANY decision...much less get it to the supreme court...which will only refuse to consider it, if they choose. hell of legal system...Probably why we have: FACT: MORE PEOPLE PER CAPITA INCARCERATED THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! (China included!) The saddest part of all, is that the system acknowledges the percentage of innocently incarcerated to be near 25% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now, lets talk again, about who is awake, and who is asleep, and to what degree!!!

quote: I am just sitting here shaking my head, I have nothing more to say... It WAS only a sarcastic question, which showed the validity of that which I stated earlier: It is persecution of an ideology which creates its proliferation,,,NOT it's acceptance. The Acceptance of that ONE christian ideology, also accepted persecution for for those outside that specific ideological base...thus, with each SPLIT, came persecution of those on each side of the split..and the percieved persecution was actively pursued from both sides ,as well. Obvious compounded results, are observed throughout the history of the early christian church....CLEAR up to the END of the inquisitiion...a radical CHRISTIAN ideology which only ended, LESS than 150 years ago. quote:So... I'm a primitive aren't I? WHO THE HECK ARE YOU TO JUDGE CHRISTIANS'S AND CALL US PRIMITIVES?! You just offended me to the highest point Street.... Kalshion, Why must you take it so personal? NO ONE called YOU primitive. Quite the contrary. It is NOT the individual who believes in the ideology that is primitive. But to actively and intentionally ignore logic, in the face of RADICAL BELIEFS ...is(IN FACT) a primitive understanding of the teachings presented..Of course, IF you accept the logic: that its ok to stack rocks on someone untill their eys squish from their heads. And proclaim they are guilty if they die, and innocent if they live....THEN I would call you primitive. NO?,that isnt a primitive understanding of the teachings? which have literally been the basis throughout history, as a justification for WAR, KILLING and MURDER of those with a different beliefs? If someone thinks an ideological belief is based on primitive understandings...they have that right..And to speak their belief..Is that NOT also what this whole country was founded to PROTECT? If it offends you, that I believe it to be very primitive.. to say lightning strikes, hurricanes, tornados and earth quakes come from a GOD, overlooking our enviroment, and actively invoking his displeasure...maybe you should re-evaluate what is primitive, misplaced and radical beliefs...and what is the ACTUAL TEACHINGS of the teacher which lies at the very base of the theosophical belief you present. It is indeed a PRIMITIVE understanding of the whole philosophical ideal held within the CORE of EVERY RELIGEON on the planet. To JUSTIFY any act of WAR, KILLING or injury upon the life of another human being....IS directly contrary to EVERYTHING Jesus Christ TAUGHT his immediate apostols...and it is in BLACK AND WHITE, with in any depicted scripture availiable today. To mimmick the SADDUCEE and PHARASEE, in their political affluence and participation, with implimentation of DEATH sentences war murder bribery and deceit...... is not only PRIMITIVE, and CONTRARY to that which Jesus taught...It serves to be SELF DECIEVING..and just plain ignorant.

Threaten to close the thread, because I place my views on the table? Prez, just because I place my likes and dislikes out on the table with NO remorse, I am accused of attacking you? Hey, if you smoke pot, and I said I detest pot smoking dopers...It's NOT my fault you get offended Jaguar, you would have been 100% correct,concerning the power of the jurers, and the place of the judge.. ...IF ALL the juries in the country were under the same rule of LAW,..... but they are NOT. I have been involved in personal legal battles (mostly financial and moral support for friends or aquaintences) from one end of this country to the other, throughout the years..with EACH there are distict variations of power, between judges and jurys. What is deemed constitutional by the supreme court has little bearing on a community where no one has the finance or clout to get it through to the next level court. And NO guys, I am NO CHRISTIAN. I would not degrade my self to the extent, that it would take, to align myself with such primitive understanding of the whole of the matter. The one point YOU all are forgetting. The PROCESS, which determines the JURY, is inconsistant from city to county and from state to state. The Law is different concerning the placement, and power of the judges. This can be radically different from state to state, and even county to county...AND IS. What you all deduce,...as far as POWER of a jury which is properly informed, CAN happen. And SHOULD be the case.... except, there are loopholes present in the jury picking proceedings..(which is the case in a very LARGE number of these proceedures) It would be GREAT, if you were accused, judged, tried and convicted by your PEERS...but what are you going to do, when those peers are members of some RADICAL christian cult.....and they are allowed that kind of power in its totallity, with NO seperatiion of religeon and state? You know?... the kind you would allow them to have. Sorry,I still say: Personal RELEGIOUS DOCTRINAL beliefs...have NO place, within our PRESENT DAY judicial system. Hunky dory, when everyone shares the same beliefs...quite the opposite, when there is diversity within the society. Jaquar, In one aspect you refer to the acceptance of the christians as a means of its proliferation. Which CHRISTIAN proliferation are you referring....Those killed for being lutheren or those killed for being catholic?

quote: The given passage IS in reference to taxes, true, but this and other passages clearly tell Christians that they have a MORAL obligation to uphold the laws they are bound to in society. Jesus was making an over-arching proclamation of His policy on civic duty. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, render unto God what is God's" tells us that as citizens we follow the rule of governments, but as people of God, we follow the rule of God. No argument here, in man's moral obligation and civic duty; however, when CIVIC DUTY is in direct conflict with GOD LAW, then civic duty is no more a duty to one who is, INDEED: "CHRIST-LIKE". Judging and sentencing people to DEATH? NOTHING "CHRIST-LIKE" there, I assure YOU!! quote: your posts are replete with hateful and antagonistic rhetoric intended to insult anyone who disagrees with you, supports Bush, and is pro-death penalty. LOL, Is that the ONLY issues you have perceived, throughout my rants? I must NOT be doing my JOB. There is a much deeper constant and overall polarity for that which I stand "AGAINST". I cannot appear to be any other polarity, than that which you perceive....for we are definately of opposite SPIRIT. I am for intelligent resolve, rather than REVENGE filled determination. (Use the word HATEFUL, if thats what you prefer; however, your only attempting to justify that which is brought to light concerning the invalidity or your stance) The FACT is: The WHOLE conservative "CHRISTIAN" foundation, concerning: justification of a hypocritic ideology, is held within the INTERPRETATION of the Bible and its teachings. Just as the INTERPRETATION of the Quran, is the hypocritic foundation of RADICAL muslim ideology. In other words: If the IDEOLOGICAL base foundation is perverted in its percieved interpretatiion; then ANY conclusion based on that view, is corrupt. Beware the leven in the loaf...a little leven spoileth the whole loaf. the loaf, being the WORD of GOD. The foundation IS the WORD, and YOURS is SPOILED!!! quote:Who are YOU to judge what we are? So Christians can't sit in judgement of a murderer because they defer to Biblical principals, but you can sit in judgement of Christians First you have two decisively different precepts intermingled to achieve an incorrect conclusion. I, as a Christian, am to KNOW them by their FRUIT.The "Them", are the children of God(people claiming to be Christian, and professing to correctly understand the spirit of His WORD) A "REAL" Christian would be those who demonstrate the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.(longsuffering, compassion, forgiveness, meekness etc etc ) The FRUIT being that which is brought forth from their labor. This is the JUDGEMENT, we are instructed to partake..... THIS is the JUDGEMENT, you have brought upon yourselves. You, bush and the like, claim to be christian. The FRUIT of your labor is manifest......"IN DEATH" Death is the by-product of YOUR ideology and surrounds all accomplishments, with little or NO compassion, or understanding.(NO fruit there, I assure you) How dare you mix perversions of the teachings of Christ, to justify an ideology which is horrendous enough to control and eliminate through military means...and by CHOICE, rather than by NECESSITY. Christ NEVER disallowed self defense, but tried to demonstrate the futility in meeting evil for evil, when He told Peter to put down the sword, and re-attached the SOLDIERS ear. An old testament "Eye for an Eye" was NOT promoted, but radically discouraged. THIS is One of the things which Radical Islam also adhere. Sure makes for a real problem finding a viable solution..and creates a DIRECTLY proportional escalation of anamosity from BOTH sides. There is NO viable Peace or solution when promoting such an ideology. (From EITHER side) Sorry, I dont view GOD, to be so stupid, in his foundation. I dont pervert the teachings, but look at them in a practical and realistic fashion..and at FACE value; rather than bending them to justify my participation in a path of political and military superiority. I say BOTH RADICAL ideological basis are EQUAL in their perversion. Christ drew in the sand for a group of people ready to JUDGE...(remember?) And spoke concerning people who justified their perversive interpretations of scripture. He said they were "As a whitened seplecure; full of dead men's bones" That would be: "ROTTEN, DISGUSTING,...DEAD...SOULESS..FRUITLESS..need I go on? You ask me about hate?..and Judgement...you need to go ask YOUR GOD! and NO, I do not mean BUSH!! For,GOD hates with a PERFECT hate, and his Judgement is beyond reproach...and I am just as disgusted as HE is concerning the state of a man, or group of MEN, who feel they can PLAY GOD. Especially a civilization of men, with free choice...who CHOOSE to be blind; because, they fear what they might see. They might have to ADMIT...: That they are NOT justified and have NO foundation. they are NOT "OK'd by Christ, or God ...and will be held LIABLE for their participation...in some fashion. kinda hard to admit your wrong, and BLOOD is on your hands. I understand that. that is what repentence is FOR. oh no.....hard hearts cannot feel the guilt....I suppose this whole thing is futile....but I said it anyway!! so there!! [ 07-19-2005, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: street ]

quote: By the teachings of Christ, we are required to forgive this man, true, but that is completelty separate from "justice". Then it SHOULD be kept SEPERATE...jeesh! quote: "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..." Remember this line? Yes, I remember, and it is specific to TAXATION!! duh! NOT sitting on a council of JUDGEMENT, with EXECUTION as the guilty verdict. That is to be left up to GOD. No one is saying, it is wrong to stop the individual from more atrocities...but the "THOU SHALT NOT KILL", is NOT to be ignored, just to justify judicial participation in an ACT as SINFUL as that which was committed by the one being judged by SINNERS. Let the DEAD bury the DEAD...lol... is more attuned to the actions of ceaser and his judicial acts as a governing force. quote: And for the love of all that is holy, please do not hijack this thread with another diatribe on Iraq, Bush, and your superiority to the rest of us. First I have NEVER hijacked a thread in my life. Second, I have NEVER implied I was superior to the REST of those on this board. Third, i find it offensive to be JUDGED and ACCUSED of such, when MY entire RESPONSE to ANYTHING written in these threads has been directly in regard to Subjects which were ALL READY brought up within the thread. And as far as IRAQ goes...(YOU brought it up) and it's relationship to this whole idea(as there is a connection). Is ROME was the occupying military rulers, just as America is occupying and ruling in IRAQ. And the RESULT of the ROMAN persecution of the CHRISTIANS caused christianity to flourish exponentially for over 2 thousand yeas AFTER. You will see an EXACT replay, with the muslum RADICALS, in that proliferation of those who are ( or percieved as) persecuted will spread their ideology with immense conviction. IT WILL GROW. Hard to believe someone who claims to be christian, is so blind they cant see the connection.Bush is a bumbling Idiot...He is NO christian, as Christian: is CHRIST LIKE. Many shall call upon my name......I know them not. sound familiar?

quote: This kind of dichotomy is prevalent throughout the Bible. God decreed that a man could not take it upon himself to kill another man, and yet he helped the Israelites, the NATION of Israel, conquer their enemies through war. All the more reason, RELIGEON has NO place in Government rule and law. What you stand behind, by justifying the opposite of "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" cammandment would be ok, if you were GOD. As it is, you are taking upon yourself... a MAN... the JUDGEMENT of GOD. That is as warped a view of the biblical teachings of Christ... as the radical muslums who tie bombs to their butt and kill in the name of "ALLAH" BOTH views are TWISTED forms of logic applied to problems within our world societies, based on RELIGEOUS indoctrination. pure phooey hogwash I personally think ALL religeous DOCTRINAL perspectives should be allowed to the individual, but outlawed in government and FAMILY and institutionalized teaching enviroments should present ALL doctinal beliefs, in an objective and abstract presentation.....but thats just MY opinion. The INSANITY of religeous logic, lies at the base of ALL extreme views brought to manifistation by EVERY radical demonstration throughout history....PERIOD

quote: well poeple have different ways of hijacking threads... what street said has nothing to do with the topic, he just used it as an excuse to go on a political rant... theres a forum for that you know You can call it a hijack, and denounce its relationship to the thread; however, that would be a matter of individual interpretation, as is with anything considered relevant to ANY conversation. And I assure you there is DIRECT correlation in the methodology of the "DRUG WAR", and its dilution of American rights...AND that of the "WAR on TERROR", and it's accomplishments at achieving the same. Here are some links ALSO relevant to the conversation, in that they apply to the whole concept of wheather or not CHOICE in pot flavored anything is acceptable. Or whether we have any CHOICE at all, about anything relevant to personal lifestyle at all....: There is more than current Law, and morality issue involved in this article..but it definately touches very strongly upon these socialogical issues...maybe the thread is placed in the wrong catagory..have you even considered that...based on the content of the story? AND as for ADDICTION...that is pure bull puck propaghanda. there is NO addiction proven with Marijuana..AT ALL!! http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEs...arijuana-94.htm http://webcenter.health.webmd.netscape.com...ntentSRC_nsmain http://www.normal.no/txt/heal01.htm http://webcenter.health.webmd.netscape.com...ntentSRC_nsmain I apologize, if everything is'nt as black and white to me, as with some...but i have seen demonstrated repeatedly that the interpretation is easily redefined, based on the views of the interpreter..and the presentation they choose to offer.

the sad part is: First, because of the way it was presented and the parents standing behind the claim. The faith, of the believers can never be shaken, without absolute confession from someone directly involved in a fraudulently conspired hoaxe. second, the whole incident will prove detrimental to the legitimacy of the asexual/transgendered peoples and their medical conditions,especially within the christian conservatives closed minded understanding of society, gender, and biological sex. If the child was biologically asexual, there are a series of test which would substantiate that angle with 100% accuracy.Chromasomes may experiance randam mutation, but never total metemorphasis. The Parents, are the guilty party, if this whole thing proves to be a hoaxe..and a moral crime committed, in how it affects the emotional state of the child.And though the crime is immense, it is little different than that inflicted upon the emotions of children from EVERY religeon in the world. No one will ever convince me there are no ill effects upon the emotional and mental state of ANY small niave child presented with graphical detail of crucifiction, much less the whole idea of such an act even being considered. people never cease to amaze me, in this world of rampant irrationale.

you know lost, out of all those here who have that irresistable urge, you are the least offensive and usually quite humorous while doing so...NP

Actually, I was referring to the word, as in :OPPOSITE of ASLEEP.

quote:Hey Race, why don't u take a trip to Amsterdam so u may take a look at cops smoking a joint ? Gives a nice insight about relativity. BTW, Holland exhibit one of the lowest addict rates to hard drugs among developped countries... Nomad, Ill give you an example how they deal with DRUGS here in the U.S. They put 50 year old woman I know on Serequel. She suffered PTSD while witnessing an extreme and horrendous act. The mother, of the children she had babysitted since birth,had stabbed her own children to death. This drug, induces sleepiness at inopportune times without warning. she had a car accident. This broke her spine. They gave her a pain medication,The later told here she was also manic-depressive(bipolar) because the pain medication did not do the job in stemming the neuralogical pain... So they gave her more meds; Two for bi-polar, and Another for nerve damage. (These COPS, can't seem to find REAL drug dealers maybe its because THEY are responsible for putting the drugs on the street in the first place...who REALLY knows?) So, this low life COP meets this woman, at the convienent store, and befriends her. It takes him TWO years of being this woman,s "So Called FRIEND " and to successfully talk her out of TWO pain pills(one each time). Then later; because, they are a freind and claim to have a terrible tooth ache, she GIVES this guy a bottle of her extra pills(containing about 15 pills) he tried to pay her,but she said she didnt need the money. So, he throws a bill on the coffee table and leaves. 10 minutes later, they bust in her door, and she is arrested with the bill as evidence that she is a drug dealer. This is an example of the average STING operation within the DRUG WAR. She is currantly serving time on 3 felony charges. Two 5-20 year sentences and one 20-99 year sentence for "selling " the partial bottle of pills. She has effectively had her whole life taken from her...and it is considered JUSTIFIABLE by these brainwashed idiots enforcing the law. Takes a REAL low life to set up a 50 year old mental patient as a drug dealer in my view...and is more common than ANY might believe...let me tell you. Cops are affectively beyond the law...as it is now legal for cops to do things which are against the law,,,in order to arrest those who,they can intice to break the law. It was NOT like this 25 yrs ago...but the neo-con zero tolorance mentality was not as predominant then either. Yeah COPS are there to enforce the law, but what mentality can justify breaking rule of law, to accuse and convict others of the same? Oh Yeah..BUSH-WAR-ITES...are doing it internationally...why NOT do it at home. Just wait until the good ole WAR on TERROR reaches this plateu...or maybe it already has.

Hey Crunch, I for one, am glad to see another "AWAKE" individual come into this community. Indeed, WELCOME.

unless laws get changed....u never know what the future holds.

Soback, I am aghast. You just reiterated the philosophical views of John Galt. I bet your familiar with Ann Rand. http://www.working-minds.com/galtmini.htm

I am an Ameteur operator myself...this is why I refer to HF as primitive, as well as most of the lower VHF Bands. They WILL be phased out for a more practical use(The good ole CB band lies within this spectrum as well...what?, no one notice the little FR2 radios put on the market couple years back?)while as the Digital spectrum, 5 Ghz and up will be the frontier of the future. We are doing things with digital square waves, which are considered Theoretically impossible..right now!! And ,there are unlimited areas into which we may expand...if we just drop the old tunnel vision philosophy, as to the practicality of "SPARK GAP TECHNOLOGY" and awaken to the newly developing roles, in regard to electomagnetic resonance, and where they can be applied. right now, HF consist of a bunch of feeble minded old men hollaring C.Q. across normally unused frequencies all at the same time...finding some form of gratification in counting how many call signs they can make out among the gibberish, hoping for the highest count. It started as a way to promote expeirmentation and private developement, in regard to electromagnetic communications..But has degraded considerably in that respect, since the last great contibution to society,,(late 1960's),and that would be the prelude to the internet..(PACKET radio..that was beginnigs of the ORIGINAL NET) I, for one, cant wait to see what comes from this innovative idea.