v01i0

quote: Originally posted by Prez: Yeah, I hope they weren't listening when I said in team chat while playing Counterstrike "Let's be terrorists now!" I very well might be on that list myself! Echelon hears it all. Mwahahaha -v

Wether the is or isn't a God, all reasons can be led to one reason, the mover, to the Thing that started everything. Thats basically what Thomas Aquinas claimed around 1200's. There may be some truth in it. -v

Fighting pirates can come costly It was only matter of time when thing like this would happen. They're fighting fire with fire. Too bad those on the side of law will get sued using fire -v

quote: quote: But Swiss people are much better at using them to commit suicide than assaulting people. Why ? Because they're sick of cheese? lollorz ..or chocolate. -v

quote: As a matter of fact, marriage is a RELIGIOUS concept. Draw your own conclusions from that.... Yeah, marriage is set by God as a eternal bond between man and woman(so sayeth Bible ) , including certain obligations you all well know. I don't deny that male pair shouldn't have legal status equal to married, but changing religious code just because someones wants to be christian gay(which seems to be quite impossible) makes the whole thing to lose it credibility. Maybe gays feel that they can't stick together eternally(or even rest of their lives) without some stronger force behind it.. ..Maybe they should start some subsect that allows gay marriages, but in classical christianity it shouldn't be possible. No offense towards gays, but if you gonna stick in religion(christianity), then you should reconsider your sexual alignment. -v PS. perhaps some moderator should throw part of this thread elsewhere so we can start decent debate without joking constantly <- Drunken yellow ball with sunclasses, hands and legs.

quote: Beer ? The finnish I knew were better at drinking vodka than beer [Wink] And strange language. Ougro-Finnian if I recall correctly. Common roots with hungarian and basque. Even tho I were about refrainin' of posting more on my current state I think this is a post I can reply without making utter fool of myself. I guess I'm breaking some traditions by drinking beer. Actually finns don't drink that much Vodka. We got our tradional grainbooze called Koskenkorva. Right you are about the language.. Have you ever been in Finland, since you seem to be travelled quite a lot? quote: So, except that the US and Switzerland are located on earth, there's not much in common between these systems Haha, I can buy that

quote: Or just the pilot needed a couple of minutes to drag a fully armed and armoured intruder corpse from his seat. [big Grin] In fact dark green box means craft ready but unmanned. Light green means manned. Did by any chance was your pilot in the fighter bay and not in FC* (* stand for number)? That will explain the problem. Nope, perscan said that they were in FC3 (which was that troublesome craft).. Both pilots were there, so it certainly seems they had drag the corpse out of the seat!! BCM gets A+ from realism,

quote: So if I consider murder wrong, but somebody breaks into my home, threatens the life of myself and my family, and I end up killing them in self defense, then I MUST accept and admit that I murdered someone and what I did was wrong, otherwise I would be conflicting with my own morals??? [Roll Eyes] In princible yes. If you truly think that murder is wrong, your conscience starts nagging. Although you can justify it to yourself that you had no choice. Analytical ethic thinking(which universalation rule is)isn't required according to it's innovators on situations that requires instant response. In those situation you must use normative, intuitive moral thinking, based more on your insticts and intuition. BUT, there are also theories in philosophy that allows you to calculate the relation between morality and immorality but it's problematic because it allows sick occurances. You can calculate that by killing the assaultant, even that would mean violating your own morals, you would save more lives by wasting him. I won't say out loud those sick occurances it may allow, instead I wait and see if someone can dug them up by doing little thinking. Anyway, I've been drinking some beer now and my thinking may go more plurry that it already is, so I will refrain from posting anymore.. Actually, I will be away at least for couple of days. I gonna go seeing my parents and friends in different region now that I finally got few days rest ahead of me, -v

Lollorz That was almost as good joke as this is. Should really be in jokes section. Being serious, I partly agree with the following part in that text: "In the LeftÔÇÖs worldview, then, the two great villains on this earth are capitalism and the West. As such, they need to be brought down and taken out of existence, which is precisely what the western Left has been trying to accomplish for the past one hundred years or so." But I disagree with "taking out of existence", for these powers, both left and right, should not exist alone. They should both exist in order to limit some extreme occurances of both sides. In balance. -v

quote: Are you insane, Volio? Definately, since I'm depating with a lifeform from totally different cultural context. It is said by ethical relativism - We are, by the way, providing perfect text book example on this. - that both opinions considering the ethical disagreement are equally right. Although they are allowed to state directive critisism towards each other, the other ain't obligated to understand that. Let us proceed tho.. I'll comment the torturing issue first in order to lay way for the original topic issue. quote: Quote originally posted by Soback "After decades of ignoring that responsibilities and rights go together, it was perhaps inevitable that an under-educated and easily confused generation should include some who do not understand that the rights granted to captured troops by the Geneva Conventions apply to those who have accepted the terms of the conventions. It DOES NOT apply to people who are not troops and who have violated the conventions' framework." I think I understand it. In other words it only means that those applying on agreed rules are justified requiring fair treatment of human rights(which seems not to include civilians or terrorists). One might ask who's rules are they? Humankind's? God's? But rather than sailing in such deep waters I hang onto more simple issue. quote: You are not "free" to go harm another, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Based on preceeding quote I assume that you agree on causing pain to other people(unless: he might be requesting it, which may still be immoral) is wrong. Ethical philosophy has certain concept called Universalation, originating from Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative. To put it simple: if you say that causing pain to others is wrong, then it is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what. You don't want torturing to become general law. It only applies plausible to moral claims, which question about torturing certainly is. To illuminate it further so that the most ignorant reader can understand it, I'll put it this way: If person X states a moral claim in some situation, he must accept that claim in every other possible situation. Otherwise he is conflicting his own morals. Thats why I claim that torturing in any form and by the cover of any excuse is WRONG! What comes in the orginal issue, I don't have to comment it any further for preceeding arguments stands firm against the moral justification of capitalism.

Too many posts to comment this late at night, but what can I do.. Start quoting The conversation has been off track for sometime now(I thought it was about political systems), partly because of me, but certainly you some dudes aren't helping on keeping it on track Anyway, quote: Originally posted by Soback In capitalism you are free to make the money and to keep it. You are NOT hurting anyone by keeping it. I disagree. By keeping all the money by yourself, while you could help others, you hurt them by doing so. Also, let's assume you've build your house and otherwise arranged your life(as well as, say, 10 000 other people has done aswell), because of the factory and jobs around the village, then the owner suddenly shuts the factory(in name of effiency) and kick all 10k of people into unemployment.. The owner of that factory really causes unneccessary suffering to the people of that village. quote: And do not try to say how it's the price of living in a society. The price of living in a society is ZERO. That's right, ZERO. Forgot the police, fire deparment, hospitals and etc. again? Later in your paragraph you admit that fact(basic functions, uphold by goverment), yet you are saying that? quote: Originally posted by Prez First of all, unlike you, I am able to produce posts of a constuctive nature on my own without cutting and pasteing the first stuff I find on a google search... ...http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvacci.html EXCERPT: "A fatal gun accident, particularly when a child is involved, often makes state or national news. This gives the impression that: fatal gun accidents are more prevalent than other fatal accidents, gun accidents are increasing, and civilian gun ownership must be further restricted or regulated. The reality does not correspond to the perception created by media coverage. Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent. Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) also fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995. More children die from accidental drownings or burns than from gun accidents. " (Gun supply statistics are from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, gun accident rates from the National Safety Council). I'm delighted to see that I have good influence on you. quote: The link you posted are worse than useless considering that the country with the highest gun ownership will naturally be the one with the highest accidental death rate due to guns. Is that the best you can come up with? *yawns* quote: Originally posted by Soback ---You must have seen a little too many westerns. Do you know about Europe, there's a little country there called the Swiss. Their gun ownership is unsurpassed even by US. I decided to quote Soback on that, I bet you believe him better than me and my useless sources. Don't know if it's so that swiss has more guns per ppl.. quote: Originally posted by Prez All of the thoughts in the above post are mine. Is that a little intimidating? Actually it is, I keep seeing nightmares about your logic. Good night.

ROFL Now that's class.

quote: It was charge at the moment you issued the launch command? As you may know fighters have to be recharged and refitted when they dock after a sortie. You may notice a yello square instead of the green one when they are rechargin. It's all in the manual. Aye, it was charged. The FC square on bridgeview were dark green even if it would have no pilot inside it. But it had, I am pretty much 99% certain. If it occurs again I will post more detailed information. It was really strange problem, but it seems to be fixed automaticly. Perhaps my medics moved the dead intruder out of cockpit.

quote: Absolutely incredible. You insist on carrying on your senseless and baseless diatribe agains the U.S., but you can't be bothered to post anything concrete? And you expect to be taken seriously? How many times you need to be proven wrong when you can swallow it? Then again, you must be only teasing me and trying how long I will provide you with the facts... Linky to gun stats " American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)" (National Education Association - Health Information Network) I'm growing bored in bringing forth mere facts just for you. Throw your eye in the lake, so that you may see the bottom from all the water. quote: Freedom is not an entity; it is neither good nor evil. It is what it is. I agree. I'm not opposing freedom. If you don't like the state, goverment or the society and it's political system - you are (hopefully)free walk away. quote: And torture? I suppose if it were you, you would treat all of the captured murderers, who would cut off your family's heads in front of you and laugh, with kid gloves. These guys are treated infinitely better than they deserve, and if what little abuse they ARE subjected to upsets you, I would suggest that you open your eyes and take a look at the world in which you live. These guys are playing for keeps. If we bind our hands any further than we already have, we might as well just give the country over to the neo-fascist miltant Muslims now. Of course, I suspect nothing would make you happier. Is it any better now? Is it? Observe your leaders, listen the rest of the world and you might note, for your amazement and shock, that neo-fascist militant christian ain't a lot better bet. I am not siding radical muslims terrorists here, for sure they do wrong. I am merely pointing out that U.S is fighting fire with fire(or oil?). And, if you would be totally free, no obligations at all, you could kill and harm anything you want. In your pesky post you claim(if they are even your claims. You should make difference between your and other people thoughts by clearly stating which ones are yours and which aren't. And furthermore you should point out who originally stated those thoughts.) that with freedom comes responsibility. Yes, I agree on that. But can you say people are ready for that kind of responsibility? I might use your words again by saying that "I would suggest that you open your eyes and take a look at the world in which you live.". -v

quote: Are you sure that the intruders didn't kill your pilots and steal your FC? Check the logistix-screen to see if you still have your FC and medical to see if any pilots needs cloning. Yea, I'm sure they didn't, thats why it was so strange that I had to ask about it here in forums. It was like the corpse of the intruder were preventing FC to take off. I had healthy pilots inside the FC and it's systems were fully functional. Strangely enough, the FC became operational later by itself. I took definately no action to cause it to work properly again.

quote: Originally posted by Prez There is something wrong with us? Because you watched a Muckraking Moore propaganda piece and feel educated now? Propaganda or not, he showed clearly enough the connection between guns, crimes and mentality in US. I don't even bother to dig up the statistics for you. quote: My money is SOCIETY'S? I bet you can't wait to steal someone elses right now. There are many viewpoints on that matter. Soback provided me with some good links into definations of Libertarianism and Anarcho Capitalism and after reading those I can now see your standpoints more clearly. Nevertheless I hold in my opinion of sharing. I will later show you why I despise capitalism in purest, even it goes off topic. quote: And if you mean Guantanomo, I have stated before that my U.S. Navy bootcamp (from what I've heard, the easiest of the major miliary branches) was far worse than anything those terrorist thugs being held there were subjected to. Nothing reported there amounted to anything close to torture. Well, not exactly poking in the eye with a stick or giving you electronic shocks in the balls, which are forms of physical torture. But mental torture is as bad, or even worse. Here are some pics out of Guantanamo. And what comes in those CIA's prisoner flights, it is suspected that they take prisoners(suspected terrorists) in to the countries where physical torture is daily life. quote: Originally posted by Soback Did Volio just say that my version of the government would be the strongest rule? I did and I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me. If that is your view of world, it is OK. But from the critics pointed towards Liberalism, please accept mine as well: Criticism of libertarianism from the left tends to focus on its economic aspects, claiming that capitalism of a radical laissez-faire (free market) character undermines individual liberty, or creates poverty and harms society and the economy. Both left- and right-wing critics claim that libertarian ideas about individual economic and social freedom are contradictory, untenable or undesirable. Libertarianism's proponents claim it to be a sound rethinking of classical ideologies and a rejection of harmful statist policies. They further claim that personal responsibility, private charity, and liberal economic policies (laissez-faire) are more effective, and/or more ethical, in eliminating poverty than government intervention and tax-funded programs.(Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian) Now we have a good bridge on my personal critique towards capitalism. I know that people are free to choose whom they work to and so on. But imagine overgrowth corporation, which owners(usually the ones funding the corp) are not even remotely connected in corporation's ways to operate. They just see they money flow on their accounts, while the real pilots(mind if I use that kind of term) of the corporation are the hired managers who merely "work" in that corporation. Offcourse they want to do best possible job in raising income of the corporation, because they want their own lists of merits to appear as high as possible. This leads in too hard work condition of the ordinary workers in that corporation(not necessarily, but according to modern trends it appears so), as the managers want to reduce the "excess" expenses of that particular corporation. Personal examble: Me and my wife went to have lunch in local pizzeria(part of a pizzachain <-- poor english again). Anyway, there you could eat as much pizza as you want against small fee. There was a lot of customers and a lot of pizza were consumed. But in that whole pizzeria, there was single employee doing everything from pizza baking to cashing the customers and doing the dishes. It's almost like slavery aswell. Maybe that poor person didn't have choices but accept that job. And all this because the corporation want to "save" in extra expenses. It ain't hard to imagine us as a corporate slaves either, if that kind of "capitalism" would flourish. Too much competition might lead in sick occurances. Let's hope that trade unions can hold up in the times of tough competition.

quote: Why don't you go BACK and read my ENTIRE post again.... You missed a HUGE chunk of it, and it is obvious by the above statement. If I feel like, which I may, or may not, I will deal with the rest of your post later on, but you need to go back and REread my post again. I'm not entirely sure why you want me to re-read your post? Clarify me if I didn't quite get it(I am finnish after all, might have some trouble understanding english at 100%) I know you agreed on social agreement and goverments role as a "sword" keeping contracts in force etc. But we have also keep in mind that you was refering to my question for Soback. According to Soback's posts, he thinks goverment(at least socialist goverment) as a thug stealing your money and giving it away to the leeches. In the world where everyone would be like him, there would be no goverment, or the goverment would be like Iraqi's goverment used to be before U.S(and U.N) "liberation", i.e the strongest rulez, by the expense of others(which, I might add, could've been the only way to rule such a nation). It's pretty late here already, I better get in the bed.. Hopefully I'll get more constructive feed back as a morning posts One quick add before I go tho: If it is really as you claim, that French imigrants are rioting because they don't get their monthly paycheck, then it's obviously France's own fault. I don't know the exact reasons for the riots(except the "facts" I've seen from local news), but I hardly believe that it is fault of the socialistic system itself. [ 11-30-2005, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Voli0 ]

quote: In all fairness and seriousness, Europe and especially France do take quite a beating in these forums at times, so I can certainly understand you being on the defensive. (I am assuming you are French here based on the content of your posts , but correct me if I'm wrong, by all means) Really, you must keep a cool head anyway, and argue FACTS, not silliness. Just a suggestion. Your misrepresentation of American culture and attitudes exemplifies either your ignorance of them or your anger at us. Either way, you are almost completely wrong on every point you've made thus far. I'd be glad to detail them one by one if you wish to continue. Actually I'm from Finland, which you should know by know if you really were reading my posts: Stated by me: "Anyway, point of my arguing were partly towards the people claiming here that socialism won't work. It works here in Finland." Thus, arquing that I'm completely wrong in every post I've made so far doesen't seem quite credible. What comes in my credibility, it must be at zero in these forums. But I try to keep in facts. My statements about socialism, communism or capitalism are just my opinions, which don't weight a lot in your scale. But stating that my arguing is sillyness is pure foolishness. I could also say that I don't really care about stereotypes, but if I did, I might think you fit in to the blind-to-the-facts american category. We can't plausible claim which political system is better, but we can, for sure, say that CIA is making prisoner flights thru europe airfields(for what purpose, God knows). If you don't believe me, try searching about the facts or read this. We can also say that there is high rate of gun related in america, without even looking discredible mr. Moore's "documents". Are you also claiming that Winter War between Finland and Russia in 1939 - 1940 is a lie? In one point you are right: I am upset to United States, but that got nothing to do with the ordinary people living within its borders; it's because the foreign politics that U.S practices. quote: It's NOT society, it is human nature, free enterprise and capitalism rewards human nature, whereas Socialism and communism are against Human nature. If the good of the many, is more important then YOUR OWN good, then you have a MAJOR problem, NOT the rest of society. Talking about what is against human nature.. While free enterprise, and especially capitalism, aren't exactly the first social model innovations mankind had, social caring like looking after family, the group and tribe, were that for sure. As a anthropologist I used to study these early models of social life, if you want to put it that way. As a somewhat sophisticated man Jaguar, you must agree that communism and socialism(for they include sharing amongst the people) are indeed based on those early models of social life, which includes sharing food, habitants and hunting grounds. Most definitave thing distinguishing communism and socialism from early cultures are that they are political models, invented to control masses and states. First societys amongst mankind have been hunter-gatherer societys where almost everything, except most private life, have been traditionally shared. So claiming that socialism is against the human nature seems false at quick glance. quote: Yep, they will come, we will cooperate until they are defeated, and go back to the same old, same old. Your utopis DON'T exist, and NEVER will. True, for utopia refers to "no place", which originates from ancient greece or latin, can't remember which. quote: It was NOT communism, it was SOCIALISM, you need to figure out the difference. That is really a matter of rhetorics. I don't count Wikipedia as a very credible source, but it was quickest source to be found. They seem to claim that Soviet Union was a communist state since it was ruled by one party, communist party. But it can as easily to be called socialist state. quote: Life would be grand!!! You would be free to be ALL that you could be, to make as much money as you wanted to without the government coming in and taking it away at the point of a gun. Life would be GRAND, and technology would leap forward even faster then it is now, because there would be even MORE money to be put into research and developement, instead of to the government to fund a bunch of looters. The profit motive, and rewarding human nature does INCREDIBLE things.... Punish human nature, and the system will fail, as socialism ALWAYS does, reward it, and you get the strongest economy imaginable, the US is that.... If you really believe in that, then your morals are questionable. If there was no state to control it's people, forcing in social agreement, there would be some thug pointing that gun in you and taking ALL of your money. You'd need to be constantly alerted. But then again, maybe you wanted to be the thug.

By the way, since you are so efficient in finding posts, could you provide help to my original question there? It can be found here.

quote: Well, a MINORITY of them were looting etc, a good majority had left town, as they were told to, and the others that did not have to evacuate in Katrinas path, banded together to protect their belongings and each other, WITHOUT government help. Like in France, only the minority were rioting there. quote: We are INDEPENDENT here, we believe that EVERYONE is capable of making it on their OWN, without GOVERNMENT help. Without society around you, you'd really be independent, on that I agree. But without that society around you, you would pretty quickly vanish in hostile enviroment because without society, you would have nothing to rely on. No guns, no technology, no nothing except your bare hands. And if everyone would think like that(being independent and self suffient), mankind would vanish out of earth pretty quickly. quote: The government does NOT help, the government is a roadblock to people who wish to be independent, and make money, start business's etc. Apparently you missed out something important. Ever heard about social agreement? You claim that goverment doesent help(offcourse, the US goverment isn't very helpful, I see that too). But how to start any kind of businness in society where everyone is potential hostile for you? quote: When you grow up, you will figure that out... Or maybe I won't How do you explain that when I was younger, I used to think like you do, but when I got older, had some education, I start thinking differently? Brain damage perhaps? quote: Unfortantly, co-operation is something that doesn't exist, since people think we live in a "me" society, where only they matter and no one else The day humanity actually begins to co-operate is the day that tells the world humanity will end soon (like an armageddon) Not everyone live in "me" society. But most of here on these forums does. And you got point there saying that mankind needs common threat before they would co-operate. Maybe hostile aliens will come and try to invade us before we learn. quote: Actually Volio, THIS is the worst thing one could do to embarass oneself. It should've been a lesson for you, not to blurt things out, especially if you do not know the subject at hand. Kinda like you did there. Don't make a fool of yourself by saying things like "You owe me because I build that highway/building/tower...before you were born" or "Your parents raised you, so therefore you owe them" or "if you have enought, you should share with others". That's why the comment was made about your maturity. For only three kinds of people could make a claim of ownership on anothers persons property/labor/wealth/knowledge/life. The first would be a young kid who pictures the world banding together and singing koombaya, the second would be a grown man/leech who hasn't achieved for himself and depends on others for his own and his family's living, the third would be a criminal/looter. So you should be thankfull Jaguar placed you in the young kid catergory, for the other two would've been much worse and more embarassing. Once you grow up, and see that the money taken away from you could go towards getting your kids a better education, better toys, a house with a back yard, an extra vacation for your family, and better living/retirment for you and your wife, you thinking will change. Right.. No wonder why communism didn't work on Russia. But maybe it would've if enough your types would've left that country. But its too late now And what comes to "this", at least I am capable to admit when I've done something stupid. Soback, try to imagine world where everyone would be like you and think like you do. Could you trust anybody since everyone's top priority would be "me" and nothing else?

I kinda like the permanity of the written things in internet. It will show well the 'maturity' of the writers to the people that are later reading what have been said. Worst thing one could possibly do to embrassing oneself in conversation is to start picking on the 'maturity' of other people's posts when cannot come up with better arguments. Socialism has it setbacks as does other political systems, but in my opinion greater good for all can be achieved only through co-operation and support of all people, not by competition and capitalism. In europe we still have right to show our opinion, and we have freedom of speech. And you speak so plausible about french riots and start mocking the system, while not long ago after Katrina(and other) hurricanes people in US started act fun ways. While they could've helped each others out more, they instead looted, acted violently and tried to get all the safety and comformity for themselves. -v

Okay, thanks for such an nice and well thought comment. You surely sound like an adult yourself. Anyone else want to throw in such constructive comments?

My latest invention in jokesfront: How do we know that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction were just a bluff? - U.S dared to attack. Mehheh

quote: I remember having this exact same problem with BCM many moons ago, but I can't remember what I did that fixed it. What I can tell you is that I used this site's search function to find the solution that eventually worked. Hope that gets you started. Been searching the solution within the forums for many days now; to no avail. Perhaps I just need to accept the fact that the game is gonna crash eventually. Hopefully I'll get UCG(assuming my pc will run it) as a christmas present and I can finally sign in for customer support. Good thing is that I've found a way to control the crashing. I run BCM windows moded in my primary monitor and have windows task manager open in secondary. From task manager I can see when paging file reaches critical size and I'm able to save and quit before game crashes. There is slight problem with windowed mode tho. When on planet, every time I access Tactical menu(and after I close it) all planet graphics are gone. A pitch black screen is only thing to be seen. I need either quit the game, or fly blinded back to space before I can have graphics back. -v

I don't know. Perhaps because it was originally moved from where I posted first Obviously I posted it in wrong place in the first place. Pardon my ignorance, but it can be confusing to determine where I should post because I'm not familiar with particular forums. Hopefully my post can stay here tho, it is hard to keep moving all the time.