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Racial Profiling - A debate


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quote:

Would I post my men on the poor black men in the suspicious car, or the rich white kid playing tennis in the park?


The rich write kid actually. Statistically, he's more likely to be a serial killer.

But you wouldn't though would you? Like Kush says, before anyone commits a crime, they are innocent. If a crime is commited and , for example, 2 black guys were seen speeding away, then the police have to act on the information they are given. But to stop 2 black guys in car because they are black in my opinion is wrong.

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There is NO proof that one race commits more crime than another. None.

Not as a race, but maybe as a demographic as in a percentage of a population in a particular city that has a population breakdown that is specific to that city.

However, regarding the terrorists, maybe it would help if you don't consider state-sponsored terrorist acts as crimes, but as acts of war. In that case, you wouldn't be doing racial profiling in order to reduce crime, you would be doing racial profiling as a means of rooting out enemy spies.

Personally, I consider the terrorists in this country as enemy soldiers out of uniform behind enemey lines. If they are caught, send them to military tribunals as captured soldiers -- not as criminals in civilian courts. Doesn't the Geneva convention give us the right to summarily execute them if we so choose since they are out of uniform?

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No, statistically, the poor black man in a suspicious car is more likely to be a CRIMINAL than the rich white kid playing tennis.

Aramike, I went to school with rich white kids who play tennis. Trust me, you can't be so sure.

And lets take out wealth. Would you say that a poor black person is more likely to steal than a poor white person?

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As a punk rocker, I believe racism is the ultimate crime against humanity. I don't even believe in race. There is only one race, the human race. However, in this case, I think $ilk makes an excellent argument. The flaw is, statistically, the majority of hijackers ARE of Middle Eastern descent, but the pictures we see in the newspapers and magazines show clean-shaven men almost indistinguishable from myself or any other white man. Maybe its just that the racial line for me has been blurred by my openness to other cultures and ethnicities, but to ME, they could be just about anyone. Terrorists aren't going to try to LOOK like they're from the Middle East, and if we are looking for people from the middle east, they're going to try their hardest not to 'fit the profile'. I would make an exception to my rabid anti-rascist stance on racial profiling for security reasons, as $ilk pointed out, but I'm not sure of whether it would work well or not.

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There is only one race, the human race

So what about the Greys then? They are obviously not humans as I've seen the autopsy on tape.

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There was actually an article in a British paper a few weeks ago about a young British Internet entrepeneur who had to sell his Porsche Boxster because he had been pulled over by the busies a ridiculous number of times in the first month of owning the car, just because he was a young guy driving an expensive car

I know the feeling but then again the cops would pull over ANYONE with nice cars so they can fill up their coffers with more dosh (cash). There's even a certain official quota for the cops to make every month on traffic offences here. If they don't make it they'll be in deep doodoo.

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Aramike, I went to school with rich white kids who play tennis. Trust me, you can't be so sure.


That is sooo true. Basically it's in the person, not the race for someone to commit a crime. Besides wasn't the Cubans ( or Columbian) involved in hijackings in the past? I even remember a hijacking many years ago in Singapore which did not involved any Middle Easterners. I only remembered because my mother was supposed to get on that plane but someone (me) forgot to bring my mother her passport and ticket at the airport. First I got scolded and then I was a hero and I got lots of ice cream from her.

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Fendi ]

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before anyone commits a crime, they are innocent.

And once that crime is committed - you have lost all chance of preventing it.

Haven't you ever heard the saying, "An ounce of prevention is equal to a pound of cure?"

We aren't talking about two poor people knocking up a grocery store necessarily. We are talking about the possibility to stop planes from crashing into the buildings in the first place, rather than worrying about how to catch people AFTER it happens.

It's TOO LATE once it happens. Cops keeping an eye on someone suspicious is not racist. Because statistically there is a high chance they are up to no good.

You need only look at violent crime statistics for the United States to know that - in the USA, black males are several times more likely than white males to commit a crime.

Statistically, Arabs are 95% or more likely to hijack a plane and use it in a suicide attack.

Wouldn't you like to be able to stop it from happening instead of letting men women and children DIE, to protect freedom in airports? We aren't changing our freedoms at all. Freedom is from the government - not from a private airport.

Airports can't simply refuse one specific race or gender from flying, but they can have their security guys keep an extra eye on certain groups. Racial profiling on a local level is somewhat less distinct of a line. In heavy commercial, travel, and government areas - it's a must.

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quote:


Originally posted by Kush:

Aramike, I went to school with rich white kids who play tennis. Trust me, you can't be so sure.

And lets take out wealth. Would you say that a poor black person is more likely to steal than a poor white person?


Yes, according to *EVERY* criminal statistic in this nation. For some odd reason, the minorities are the VAST majority of the nation's prison population. Hmmm, must be coincidence...

quote:


And once that crime is committed - you have lost all chance of preventing it.

Haven't you ever heard the saying, "An ounce of prevention is equal to a pound of cure?"


Apparantly not. In order to be politically correct, we should let Arab men slam jets into skyscrapers rather than simply screening people who'd fit profile of someone who'd actually do it. Let's just pick up the pieces later.

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Look, Aramike, I don't have hard scientific facts about what race makes up the 'Vast' majority of prisoners in your country, in my country, the Vast majority of prisoners are Caucasian. There are those who would like you to believe that the majority are Native, but factually, it's just not true. And I'm just guessing that you don't have factual data, you're just going on instinct, or what you believe to be true. From what I've understood, the black population in America make up only ten percent of the whole population, but they are a larger proportion of incarcerated population, but they still don't make up the majority of prisoners. That's from a factual statistic that's a few years old. Haven't done the research to check up on it, but my guess is that it hasn't changed much.

The thing about terrorism, the thing that makes it so hard to fight against, is that it has nothing to do with what a person looks like or what race they appear to be from.

If you start accusing people of being terrorists based on what they look like then the terrorists have won. Period.

And finally, the biggest hole in your argument is this.

Let's say Derek decided to go out and buy a bottle of Orange juice early in the morning. He's been working hard all day, squashing bugs, e-mailing, reading posts on the forum. It's late, he wants some juice.

He's decided that he doesn't want to change his clothes, he's dressed in some raggedy clothes, his car is in the shop, so he borrows his wife's car, it's a little ragged, needs some repairs, but it should get you to the store.

So he gets to the store, buys his juice, but on the way home, something happens. The engine gives out. He walks the car over to the side of the road and starts looking around to see if there's anyone awake that he could knock on their door, maybe borrow their phone. So, Aramike, you look out your window, you see Derek Smart get out of his ragged car, looking around your neighborhood. What your saying to me is that all you would see is someone about to commit a crime, what you would not see is the truth; one of the greatest software developers of all time, in need of assistance.

If the world you want to live in is a place that would assume Derek Smart would be a criminal based on his skin colour, then fine. Not me. That's not the world I want to live in at all. Not at all!

[ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: Kush ]

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Getting so worked up over how someone "feels".

The hole in our argument that nearly an absolute majority of suicide hijackers are Arabic Males between 23 and 35 years of age.

You know if we targeted just that segment of people - we could catch more terrorists than if we checked everyone equally?

You don't have the manpower to do intensive searches on everyone, so naturally you have to selectively target. Why on earth would you selectively target old ladies and 8 year old girls?

Dereks got a pimp tight car so that wouldn't happen

quote:

The thing about terrorism, the thing that makes it so hard to fight against, is that it has nothing to do with what a person looks like or what race they appear to be from.


I guess all those guys screaming "Allah Ackbar" and crashing into the WTC could have been anybody? I mean they were speaking arabic and looked arabic... and acted islamic... but perhaps they were chinese jews? I mean we should take into account that just because all of them were Islamic, that they could have had Jewish accomplices?

FYI it's not just skin color, it's also demeanor, how they are acting, etc.

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From what I've understood, the black population in America make up only ten percent of the whole population, but they are a larger proportion of incarcerated population, but they still don't make up the majority of prisoners.

So statistically you agree with us? That proportionatly blacks are more likely to be incarcerated than whites?

It's sad, I have lot's of black friends. It's not just blacks or mexicans or whatever. It's how people act and such as I indicated above.

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If you start accusing people of being terrorists based on what they look like then the terrorists have won. Period.


We haven't accused anyone.

Let me spell it out to you.

A majority of terrorists that have suicide hijacked planes are ARABIC.

Pretty much 100% targeting the USA are ARABIC.

We need to stop terrorists in airports.

The terrorists who are ARABIC can only blend in with other ARABIC people. Therefore - we do like a sifter does with sand and pebbles. We use our fine tooth comb across all ARABIC people, and the ones who are terrorists will come out (the pebbles).

Is that a good analogy?

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Let me spell it out for you.

The point I was making is that the majority of prisoners in both our countries are caucasian. Not because Caucasians are predisposed to crime, its just that caucasians comprise the majority of the populations of both our countries.

The majority of terrorists that attacked America on Sept 11th are of middle eastern descent. I have yet to see a shred of scientific fact that the majority of hijackers throughout history are middle eastern. My gut tells me you don't have that proof either.

There are a miriad of different beliefs throughout the middle east. There are many different religions, there are many different viewpoints. There is NO WAY that you could tell by looking at someone whether or not they are a terrorist or not.

The FACT remains that the greatest threat to America, over the past three hundred years has been from fellow Americans. From the civil war, to the assasination of presidents, to the various militias that have tried to destabalize the govt over the years. Personally I would like to believe that the Anthrax poisonings have come from a foriegn threat, but they well may be from a home grown American source. And the people who actually deal with these issues for a living, and are professionals, are not going to make the mistake of assuming that one race, or ethnic group is behind the poisonings until they have HARD EVIDENCE.

There's a reason for this. They want to catch who is doing it. They're not going to make assumptions, they are going to find the person(s). And lets hope they do it soon.

And Aramike, you didn't answer my question. If you were to see Derek Smart, walking around your neighbourhood, late at night, what would you think, right off the bat, what would you assume about him?

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This is a hard one, and I hope what I'm going to say comes out right.

To make racial profiling a POLICY is wrong. It says that it is ok to pre-judge someone based on their colour. That's what Apartheid was about.

But, it is a neccesary evil. It is a waste of resources to focus on "unlikely" demographics. Profiling is a part of human nature, and is based on experience. Everyone pre-judges, its a safty mechanism, we pre-judge so that we can "know" what to expect from the people we meet. It's a dilemma because prejudice is so close to racism. I don't think prejudice is a bad thing and nor do I think it is a good thing. It is an obstacle to overcome.

Profiling as a policy is wrong, but profiling is a part of human interaction and as such cannot be "erased". It is a neccessary evil.

"A cow is a four legged animal, but not every four legged animal is a cow"

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Hey you know what. I can give you some examples of racial profiling, I conducted this experiments myself and HAVE THA DATA TO BACK IT UP.

1. Majority of drivers for hondas that are suped up, lowered and have racing stripes are chineese. I counted 40 hondas like that fit that description. 33 of out of 40 drivers for those hondas were chineese.

2. I was looking at garden workers, the people who cut bushes and grass in front of houses. Counted about 15 trucks, you know what race those garden workers were? Mexican, yes, that means about 2 to 4 workers per truck and ALL of them Mexican.

YES, not all of the hondas that are I described have chineese drivers, and not ALL the garden workers are Mexican, but if a honda like that passes me on the freeway I will bet you $20 bucks that it has a Chineese driver, or if I see a gardeners truck on the street I will bet you $20 bucks that the gardeners are Mexican. I will not win all the time, but trust me, I will win most of the time and walk off with a huge profit. So racial profiling does work. And by the way, YES, the majority of hijackers are Arabic. In the 70s and 80s when US had on average about 1 hijacking every 2 months and had sky marshals on planes if you don't belive me then go do the research for yourself and you will see who the hijackers were.

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quote:

1. Majority of drivers for hondas that are suped up, lowered and have racing stripes are chineese. I counted 40 hondas like that fit that description. 33 of out of 40 drivers for those hondas were chineese.

2. I was looking at garden workers, the people who cut bushes and grass in front of houses. Counted about 15 trucks, you know what race those garden workers were? Mexican, yes, that means about 2 to 4 workers per truck and ALL of them Mexican.

According to these profiles, yes, those two things do have a racial attachment. However, crime and terrorism are NOT such cases. Terrorists can be anyone, as can criminals. All it takes is for someone to be in a situation they don't like and to find the only way out, to be something radical. Crime is usually commited by those who covet something (wealth usually, but can be other things). Terrorism is usually caused by fanatical people who hate something. To me, the KKK (or white supremists, etc) is a large group of terrorists enacting terrorism against people of other races (and religions!). Any cop who follows racial profiling (i.e. sees two kids on the street late at night, one white, one black, but equal in all other manners, and chooses the black one to question most of the time), is a terrorist against black people.

Terrorism is about invoking terror. Scaring an individual or group into doing or not doing something. In the case of cops doing racial profiling, they are attempting to scare the race in question, into not commiting crimes. They are harassing unnecessarily. This is unacceptable, and they are only marginally better than the terrorists who struck the WTC. Given time, they will become AS bad as those terrorists. Because they will shoot some black kid who wasn't doing anything (ala NYC cops shooting the african man pulling his passport 19 times - back in early 90s). There is no excuse that validates racial profiling, and there never will be.

As to airport security, the only true way to keep terrorism out of the sky, is to blanket search. If we do anything less, the terrorists will find a way around the system. I suppose you guys haven't heard of disguises? It's not inconceivable that after a while of racial profiling, the terrorists will hop on a plane disguised as an elderly WHITE woman....If they want to accomplish something, they WILL accomplish it, if we give them a loophole. Racial profiling at airports IS that loophole.

More likely however, is that they are no longer even attempting to strike from the air. Why? Because we ARE doing blanket searches. Thus why you are seeing news reports about Anthrax. They are smart people. Assuming they don't think these things through is exactly what will result in getting many more people killed. Racial profiling is one of those assumptions.

The MOST important thing any country in this situation can do, is be fair and just. As soon as those fall away, the terrorists have already won.

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quote:

Originally posted by Gomez:

Terrorists can be anyone, as can criminals.

There's a profile for what crimes are going to be commited by what race. You think that it's just a coincidence that Arabic people just happen to come to US and hijack and crash those planes? Do you think it might as well have been a white, black, chineese, japaneese or mexican guy?

[ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: Soback ]

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Good post Aramike.

Anyway, there are blatant BS areas I need to address as well.

quote:

I have yet to see a shred of scientific fact that the majority of hijackers throughout history are middle eastern. My gut tells me you don't have that proof either.

A majority of Plane hijackers have been ARABIC and virtually 100% of the suicide hijackers have been ARABIC.

Let me give you some "scientific" examples.

December 1985 - Rome and Vienna airports targeted by Abu Nidal Organization a.k.a. the Arab Revolutionary Brigade.

September 1986 - Pan Am Flight 73 hijacking. Same suspects.

July 1988 - City of Poros day-excursion ship attacked - same group.

fall of 1985 - siezure of Achille Lauro Italian liner by Abu Khaled of the PLO

February 1978 - Two Egyptian gunmen hijack a plane at Larnaca airport.

November 23, 1985 - Highjacked Egyptian 737 - Arab terrorists began to murder all Jews and Westerners on board.

July 3rd, 1976 - Palestinian terrorists hijack a plane - 31 ppl die

April 16, 1986 - Heathrow airport bomb plot by Syrian national.

1992 - Pan Am aircraft bombed by Mohammed Rashid

feb 21, 1970 - Popular front for liberation of Palestine bomb swissair flight 330 with first altimeter controlled bomb

October 13, 1977 - 3 palestinians sieze an Lufthansa flight en route to Frankfurt and place bombs all over the aircraft to kill themselves and all passengers - they failed.

Mass Skyjackings of 1970 - 4 commercial airliners over western europe siezed by Palestinians. Passengers were released after Palestinians in germany and failed hijackers were released.

Sept 21, 1988 - Libyans bomb pan am flight 103 killing 270 people.

june 23, 1985 - Air India boeing 747 - 329 fatalities - by two Sikh radicals, lal Singh and Armand Singh

sep 19, 1989 - Libyans bomb a French DC-10 over Niger.

Xiaman Airlines, Oct 2, 1990 hijacked boeing 737 is crashed into two parked planes at Guangzhou/Canton airport.

sep 23, 1983 - 112 dead, plane crashed in persian gulf northeast of Abu Dhabi Airport, United Arab Emirates

sep 8, 1974 - Palestinians bomb a flight from New york to tel aviv.

jan 1, 1976 - Plane bombed between saudi arabia and kuwait by Arabs

July 22, 1968 - first major plane hijacking by Palestinians, from Rome to Tel Aviv

June 1985 - siezure of twa flight 847 by Hizballa terror squad under Ali Hamadi.

Additionally I found about 6 other highjackings by non-arabs. about 5 of which were still Asians. (Japanese, North Korean, and Russian)

Anyway that backs up my statements kay?

BTW I'm not counting the 1000 + suicide attacks on embassies, etc carried out by arab terrorists. I only counted hijacking or plane related terrorist acts.

Too much to write

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There is NO WAY that you could tell by looking at someone whether or not they are a terrorist or not.

I never said anything to the effect. I said you can tell if it is more LIKELY that they COULD be.

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The FACT remains that the greatest threat to America, over the past three hundred years has been from fellow Americans.

I agree, but...

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to the various militias that have tried to destabalize the govt over the years

I happen to believe that since militias are allowed for in our CONSTITUTION that they are legal. and since Abraham Lincoln's actions during the Civil War and Grant's actions afterwards were found un-Constitutional, I think your statement means a different thing than what you might have meant by it. I believe the South had a right to secede, but that's a whole nother can of worms. We NEED militias in order to keep the government from doing as governments tend to do - legislating how you live your private life and having the ability to force it upon you since you can't defend yourself.

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Personally I would like to believe that the Anthrax poisonings have come from a foriegn threat, but they well may be from a home grown American source.

I think it does come from a home grown source.

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And the people who actually deal with these issues for a living, and are professionals, are not going to make the mistake of assuming that one race, or ethnic group is behind the poisonings until they have HARD EVIDENCE.


I guess that's why two days after the anthrax investigations started - the FBI issued a statement that they believed it was "RIGHT WING EXTREMISTS" in our country who are responsible - even though they had no evidence. Real "professional".

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racism

Just so we are all clear on the definition of racism - it is the belief that one race is superior and has a right to dominate another.

Stretching the meaning to cover more people is a favorite slander tactic of Leftists.

Not targeting you necessarily, just making it clear.

quote:

According to these profiles, yes, those two things do have a racial attachment. However, crime and terrorism are NOT such cases. Terrorists can be anyone, as can criminals.

Anyone can be a gardener or drive a honda - they just have to be predisposed to it. My point is that Arabs are predisposed to being hijackers. A small minority of them true, but a majority of terrorists ARE arab.

quote:

Any cop who follows racial profiling (i.e. sees two kids on the street late at night, one white, one black, but equal in all other manners, and chooses the black one to question most of the time), is a terrorist against black people.


That's stretching the meaning of terrorism, but I see your point. However, a police officer has to take into account (as I said) more than just color. They have to take the situation into account (i.e. all-white neighborhood, demeanor, etc.) If someone does as you said they are simply predjudiced and may miss the true criminals most of the time.

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In the case of cops doing racial profiling, they are attempting to scare the race in question, into not commiting crimes.

Not necessarily. Only if they are doing as you said above. Like I said, cops sometimes work in all-black areas and pull over 75% black over 25% white and get accused of profiling. They aren't doing anything. And sometimes, they fit the profile and have to be watched.

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They are harassing unnecessarily. This is unacceptable, and they are only marginally better than the terrorists who struck the WTC. Given time, they will become AS bad as those terrorists.

So cops will start getting into planes and crashing them into buildings... okay you're reaching now.

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There is no excuse that validates racial profiling, and there never will be.


By your definition no, but there are times it will be neccessary - such as at airports and military and economic high risk targets.

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I suppose you guys haven't heard of disguises? It's not inconceivable that after a while of racial profiling, the terrorists will hop on a plane disguised as an elderly WHITE woman....If they want to accomplish something, they WILL accomplish it, if we give them a loophole. Racial profiling at airports IS that loophole.


That's why at airports you have to remove jackets, and outer garb in order to be recognized. I'm sure someone wouldn't be allowed on a plane if they covered ALL skin and wrapped their head in a veil. And since we are STILL using our same standard methods on EVERYONE else your point is moot. So no need to be a smart-ass.

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The MOST important thing any country in this situation can do, is be fair and just. As soon as those fall away, the terrorists have already won.

If the ends justify the means, then saving 5000 more lives at the cost of inconveniencing a few passengers and making their self esteem feel bad - I'm all for it.

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