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Supreme Cmdr

Whose fault was it? Romans Or Jews

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I don't really care. I simply moved this over here so that Jaguar and his band of merry men can impale themselves.

quote:


Originally posted by sckid1108:

I understand SC's feelings regarding the posts on the DC forum. I spend some time reading and posting there which I personally want back since it could have been more productively spent blowing my nose....

I do have one grip and that is:

"Rubbish. Who has time for that? The Jews nailed Christ to the cross and mattered not who he was. The ONLY people I am sympathetic towards are those who bought the game and realize that it lacks polish here and there. I DON'T CARE about John Doe who bought the game, hasn't take the time to actually play or learn how to play it, but finds it necessary to hop on a board and act rude. "

As a nice Jewish boy I resent that remark since it was the Romans who did it and that type of figure of speech has plagued us for a long time. I am 100% sure that SC meant nothing by it and was just frustrated with this dude he was responding to but I want to just give a reminder that it is a public forum and that people are sometimes sensitive to the language you use. In this case it was personal.

Anyway you can ban me if you want or call me a jerk, but I did feel I had to make that point. Otherwise let DC have it and I am still waiting for the address that I can send my additional $20 to.

Thanks,

-M


quote:


Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

quote:

Originally posted by sckid1108:

As a nice Jewish boy I resent that remark since it was the Romans who did it and that type of figure of speech has plagued us for a long time. I am 100% sure that SC meant nothing by it and was just frustrated with this dude he was responding to but I want to just give a reminder that it is a public forum and that people are sometimes sensitive to the language you use. In this case it was personal.


Yes, you are right, it was the Romans (and I have edited my post as such). My mistake. But I'm no different in my mistake, that those who caused the Jews to be plagued by that figure of speech.

But I digress. Me? I'm just waiting to see who gets to crucify Mel.

quote:


Anyway you can ban me if you want or call me a jerk, but I did feel I had to make that point

Once you get to hang around here long enough, you'll learn that we don't ban people on a whim and for stuff like this. We ban people for being rude, obnoxious and generally intolerable - NONE of which you have done since coming here, eighteen posts ago. Damn n00bs.


quote:


Originally posted by sckid1108:

Thanks for your LOL response SC.

I'll cut Mel some slack I mean without him we wouldn't have gotten to see scottish people with makeup on and skirts...

maybe I need to rethink this :-)

-M


quote:


Originally posted by rtoolooze:

Hmmmm..., what a read. Those guys never give up. Does'nt matter tho. It does'nt change the fact that there are gamers who enjoy this type of game.

If God himself came up with the perfect reply to their ramblings, they still would not listen. They are not there to be constuctive in any way. Its just a game to them, and they are just there to be disruptive.

And about the Roman-Jew thing, while it was the Romans who physically crusified Jesus and put him to death, it was the Jewish religous leaders of the time who instigated, brought false charges against, and had the Romans put him to death. Even the Roman govener Pontius Pilate said he found no fault with Jesus and repeadedly tried to release him. However, the Jewish leaders and people increased their shouting that he should be impaled. Fearing a riot, Pilate acceded to their wishes, even washing his hands of it so the bloodguilt would not be on his hands, but the Jews. (Read Matthew chapter 26 thru 27)

Folks, I'm not predjudist against anyone or any race, I'm just stating facts right out of the Bible. So please, don't take it that way.


quote:


Originally posted by Nimbus:

quote:

Folks, I'm not predjudist against anyone or any race,
I'm just stating facts right out of the Bible.
So please, don't take it that way.

I was going to say something but I think I'd better not, I'll just underline that.


quote:


Originally posted by Jaguar:

Hmmm, well, this is getting WAY off the subject, but if you really want to discuss this, and LEARN the actual truth of the matter, then start a thread in politics and religion, and quote the religious ramblings in this thread, and we'll try to get you all straightened out. Not just you, but both of you.

And it could be a VERY interesting discussion by the way.

But time to move this somewhere else, not the thread for it.

Title the discussion "who crucified Jesus" or something close in the politics and religion subject and we will discuss it, but drop this subject in this thread.

Thank you


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quote:

Originally by Supreme Commander

I don't really care. I simply moved this over here so that Jaguar and his band of merry men can impale themselves.


ROFLMAO!!

Impale indeed!!

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Guest rtoolooze

Jaguar, I'd sure like to know the actual truth of the matter if you think somehow what I posted was incorrect. I mean, everything I said comes from the Bible. I guess someone could dispute it if they did'nt believe in the Bible.

Anyway, just a friendly discussion. As you know, I consider you to be a friend, and want to keep it that way.

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quote:

Jaguar and his band of merry men can impale themselves

yeah that's funny...

I don't care either but I thought that I would point out, that many people believe that while the Romans hammered the nails, the jews were responsible for his BEING crucified.....

its like blaming the hangman for hanging the criminal.

the bible might be true, but it doesn't go into great detail...behind the scenes etc...

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quote:

Originally posted by rtoolooze:

Jaguar, I'd sure like to know the actual truth of the matter if you think somehow what I posted was incorrect. I mean, everything I said comes from the Bible. I guess someone could dispute it if they did'nt believe in the Bible.

Anyway, just a friendly discussion. As you know, I consider you to be a friend, and want to keep it that way.

Your second paragraph, of course, I want to keep it that way as well.

I will not, and can not attack the Christian religion, I think that it is a wonderful belief.

As most of you probably know, I am not a Christian, but I have great respect for the religion.

OK, now that that is out of the way.

I want you to picture this.

You have a religion, you are trying to spread it out to a certain population, now, what population were they trying to spread it to?

A hint: "Roman" Catholic.

Now, if you are trying to spread a religion to a population, are you going to blame that population, or are you going to blame a population that they think is evil anyway?

You are going to blame the population that they hate, which is whom? The Jews, the Romans hated the Jews, not only because they were monotheistic, but they also called themselves chosen.

The Romans did not understand monotheism, and believed that they were the chosen group.

So, tell me, who are you going to blame when you are trying to spread a monotheistic religion, to a group that believes in many gods, and hates the race that believes that they are the chosen group by their god?

You are going to blame the group the romans hate, and are going to blame the jews instead of the group whom you are trying to convert, who are in fact the ones that killed your messiah.

The Romans killed Jesus because he was a danger to them, dangerous in the fact that he was trying to raise the Jews up in Revolt, and a very learned man that could and did have influence on the Jewish people.

I will leave it at that.

The Romans killed Jesus because he was a danger to them. Pontius Pilot indeed crucified Jesus, and with malice, he didn't wash his hands of it, he ordered it.

The Romans hands had to be cleaned, because otherwise they would not be converted to this new religion, and the Jews were not going to be converted, so why not blame them.

Biblical history is an interesting study, but this is as far as I will go. There is FAR more to this then I am saying, but That would take a fricking book, and I am not going to get that detailed.

Needless to say, biblical scholars agree, Jesus was crucified by the Romans, NOT the Jews, he was so close to getting the Jews to revolt it was insane, and later on, within 25 years, the Jews would, they would all die, but they did revolt against the Romans, and Jesus was the one that got the movement really going.

The Romans killed Jesus, and their hands had to be cleaned, otherwise the Christian/Roman Cathlic movement, would have died before it got started.

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Sometimes, the things that may or may not be true, are the things a man needs to believe in the most. Quote from Secondhandlions

And true for just about everything. Especially this subject.

Historically speaking, and this is NOT using the bible as the major source. The Romans crucified Jesus, according to 2 of the testaments in the bible, Jesus was killed by the Jews.

Look to the above quote, and decide, what do you need to believe?

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My two cents, and yes I'm a Christian

1. from a Christian perspective, we all killed Christ. We sinned in Adam and because of that sin Christ's death was necessary to reconcile us to God.

2. from a literal historical point of view, the Romans killed Christ since it was illegal for the Jews to actually carry out hte death penalty. The Romans hammered in the nails and Pilate, no matter his personal standing on the matter he did order the crucifixion.

3. from a Biblical perspective on the innerworking s of the whole ordeal, the Jews delivered him up to Pilate and convinced him to crucify Christ. I haven't read any other descriptions of the whole event other than what is found in the bible itself, but I don't think it too far fetched to say that there probably aren't many if any other writines that give the whole political intrigue of the events leading up to CHrists crucifixion.

4.

quote:


The Romans killed Jesus because he was a danger to them, dangerous in the fact that he was trying to raise the Jews up in Revolt, and a very learned man that could and did have influence on the Jewish people.

Like it or not, the bible alone is the founding basis for Christian Doctrine, christ did not preach revolt, in fact quite the opposite. Jesus was no threat to the Romans so long as he stayed merely a faction of the established Jewish religion in their eyes. It was as Christianity spread and the monotheistic principles began to interfere with Emperor worship( this could be a whole nother debate since the burning if incense to the emperor was considred a sign more of loyaty than worship of a god.) and they were perceived traitors to the Empire.

quote:


The Romans hands had to be cleaned, because otherwise they would not be converted to this new religion, and the Jews were not going to be converted, so why not blame them.

Again, even if you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, you must accept that it is the basis for the doctrine of the Christian religion. This doctrine clearly states that the good news was to go to the JEW first and then to the GREEK. This is completely contrary to your above statement.

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As I stated Eclipse, I was speaking to history, and what history tells us.

The bible is wonderful for religious doctrine, but for history, you have to dig deeper. The bible is not the end all, be all, of the history of Jesus, or what he was and who he was.

What he actually was would amaze you, many Jewish and biblical historians know the truth, but because Christianity is a good religion, they keep that information to themselves. I will keep to that tenet as well, within this forum anyway.

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That was an interesting read. I will try and be a little more detailed than what I said before.

Jesus was sent to the earth by his father to become a perfect human being to be sacrificed, and buy back what Adam had lost, which was human perfection, and everlasting life. It was prophisied that he would die, and he knew it, and even told his disiples about it.

He came to preach about Gods purposes to the lowly and down trodded, not to be in league with the Jewish nation and to cause a revolt. Many times he talked against the Jewish leaders and especially the Jewish religious leaders because of how they treated the common people.

At that time, spreading the good news about Gods purposes was to be kept only to the Jewish nation, not even to the Samaritans who were their kin to the north, and especially not to the Romans as they were part of the gentile nations. So at that time, the christians had no intentions of spreading their beliefs to the Romans. First, they had to spread it to the Jews who were trying to do away with the movement.

To be sure, the Jews were looking for a Messiah to lead them against the Romans and remove the Roman yoke off of them, But Jesus had nothing to do with that. That was not the reason he came to the earth. In fact, they eventually got tired of Jesus exposing their hypocrisy and bad deeds that they began to look for ways to do away with him. You see, in reality, they were afraid of being exposed and that their position of prominence would be taked away from them.

And Pilate did try to avoid sending an inocent man to death, asking the crowd if they wanted Jesus released in accord with the custom of freeing a prisoner at each passover festival. They instead, incited by their religious leaders, clamored for the release of Barabbas, a convited thief and murderer. He even tried repeadedly after this to release him, to no avail.

Also, Jesus knew the Romans would destroy Jerusalem at a later period. Thats whay he gave his followers a sign as to when to leave and "Flee to the mountains". He said when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw."

Now, this all started 33 years later in 66 AD. when Cestius Gallus came to the city and surrounded it. Suddenly, for no apparent reason, he left. This allowed the christians to flee the city just as Jesus told them to.

Then, 4 years later, in 70 AD., the Romans came back under General Titus, laid siege, and eventually destroyed the city, like you said.

So no, Jesus was not in league with the Jews to start a revolt. There is no evidence to support that. He did however call Jerusalem, "The killer of the prophets and the stoner of those sent forth to her".

So Jesus was, in reality put to death by the Jewish religious leaders of the time. But only because God allowed it to happen. God would not have allowed them to put his son to death for nothing. It was his purpose so we, if we put faith in his sons sacrifice, would have a chance for everlasting life.

[ 02-15-2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: rtoolooze ]

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Well spoken rToolooze, and the closest thing to the truth of the matter. The Jewish religious leaders of the time enjoyed a lavish lifestyle and great respect from the people. Jesus however went against everything that afforded them that lifestyle. They percieved him a threat, as was God's intention. So in the background they plotted his demise. The purpose of the Messiah was to release the chosen people from sin and be their king. What they didn't understand at the time was he wasn't to be their king in the mortal sense of the word.

After his death, Christ spent 3 days in Hell defeating the spiritual death we were all doomed to suffer because of the original sin against God by Adam. Christ emerged with the keys to the pit and saved us all from eternal damnation.

Jesus knew this from the beginning and he informed his desciples during their travels.

Jesus was the personification of positive thinking which is a gift from God that we all have. Try it sometime and see what happens.

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quote:

Originally posted by rtoolooze:

Jesus was sent to the earth by his father to become a perfect human being to be sacrificed, and buy back what Adam had lost,.....

So Jesus was, in reality put to death by the Jewish religious leaders of the time. But only because God allowed it to happen. God would not have allowed them to put his son to death for nothing. It was his purpose so we, if we put faith in his sons sacrifice, would have a chance for everlasting life.

Very well put, throughout history many people from the Romans to the Nazi's have tried to paint the Jews as Evil because of what "they" did. The reality is that it was all part of God's plan. All of us fall short of the Glory of God and are in need of Salvation, without Christ' sacrifice on our behalf, none of us would have hope for salvation. Those who have put things otherwise only have had other motives in mind.

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quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

Very well put, throughout history many people from the Romans....have tried to paint the Jews as Evil

Where did you come up with that about the Romans? The Jews were just a conquered people just like all the rest the romans encountered and they were treated no better and no worse than any other conquered territory. If the case was as you have stated, don't you think the Romans would have wiped them out instead of trying to govern and deal with the Jews? To the Romans, Jeruselam was just an insignificant little speck on their territorial map. Unless you were a rebel, criminal or just a religious fanatic trying to stur things up and tip the status quo they didn't give a crap as to who you where or what you were doing as long as you kept up your payments of Roman taxes. The only time I can think of that the Romans had a problem with a particular religious group was the Christians. Thousands upon thousands were sent to their deaths into the colisuem all for just being christian and nothing more. Also let us not forget that Christianity is a Judeo sect that Christ made accessible to everyone on the planet. As for Hitler and the Nazi's we all their hatred for the Jews.

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quote:

throughout history many people from the Romans to the Nazi's have tried to paint the Jews as Evil because of what "they" did.

You have to remember that the Jews were enslaved all the way back to the Egyptian days, centuries before Jesus.

The reason that the Jews were persecuted throughout history is that the Bible declares the Jews as the chosen people by God, and the rest of the people resented that.

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Quote:

"What he actually was would amaze you, many Jewish and biblical historians know the truth, but because Christianity is a good religion, they keep that information to themselves. I will keep to that tenet as well, within this forum anyway."

Jaguar, wow, thats a powerful statement. So what your saying is that there are people on this earth who actually know the real truth about Jesus, and who he was. (In effect saying the Bible is incorrect) And that these people have knowledge and indispudable proof of said knowledge, about Jesus, that if all found out, it would tear down christianity?

And apparently, you also know about all of this? How could you let people believe in a falsehood about Jesus if you know the real truth? Please tell us and also provide the proof.

I've been a student of the Bible all my life, and I've never come across a statement like this. Its seems very unlikely that such knowledge could stay hidden to a select few and away from the general public for centuries. And why would someone hide the facts? To keep a false religion going? That would be terrible. If what you said was true, and I knew about it, I would make sure the world knew about it.

But, like I said, if you really know the truth, please tell me. Because thats a very serious statement.

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quote:

Originally posted by rtoolooze:

Quote:

"What he actually was would amaze you, many Jewish and biblical historians know the truth, but because Christianity is a good religion, they keep that information to themselves. I will keep to that tenet as well, within this forum anyway."

Jaguar, wow, thats a powerful statement. So what your saying is that there are people on this earth who actually know the real truth about Jesus, and who he was. (In effect saying the Bible is incorrect) And that these people have knowledge and indispudable proof of said knowledge, about Jesus, that if all found out, it would tear down christianity?

And apparently, you also know about all of this? How could you let people believe in a falsehood about Jesus if you know the real truth? Please tell us and also provide the proof.

I've been a student of the Bible all my life, and I've never come across a statement like this. Its seems very unlikely that such knowledge could stay hidden to a select few and away from the general public for centuries. And why would someone hide the facts? To keep a false religion going? That would be terrible. If what you said was true, and I knew about it, I would make sure the world knew about it.

But, like I said, if you really know the truth, please tell me. Because thats a very serious statement.

As the quote above says,

quote:

Sometimes, the things that may or may not be true, are the things a man needs to believe in the most.

Christianity is a wonderful religion, and why would someone want to share information that would hurt it, or at least discredit it, when Millions of people depend upon it for strength?

I do not wish to do that, I went looking for information, and I found it, it was not easy, it was not simple, and most of all it was very soul wrenching.

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, I am no longer a Roman Catholic, I have another faith now that sustains me, but to share this information and possibly hurt that many people? I don't think so.

If you are seriously interested in this information, I will share it with you in PM's etc, as I am going to with a couple of others that have asked, otherwise, look around.

Main thing being Jesus, literally, the King of the Jews. Literally, not religiously, not as an analogy, but LITERALLY, the King of the Jews. Oh and study up on the Holy Grail, Hint: it is NOT what you think it is, and also the Knights templar ought to really get the neurons firing.

Hit Google with that, it ought to get you started.

Right now I am busy putting together a Home Inspection report and have a computer to redo, so I am a little busy to be giving anybody any type of reading list right now, but I can and will get to it if requested, it will just take me a coupe of days.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Main thing being Jesus, literally, the King of the Jews. Literally, not religiously, not as an analogy, but LITERALLY, the King of the Jews. Oh and study up on the Holy Grail, Hint: it is NOT what you think it is, and also the Knights templar ought to really get the neurons firing.

Hit Google with that, it ought to get you started.

Right now I am busy putting together a Home Inspection report and have a computer to redo, so I am a little busy to be giving anybody any type of reading list right now, but I can and will get to it if requested, it will just take me a coupe of days.

Damn ya beat me to it. Rennes-Le-Chateau and More Rennes-le-chateau. Hmmm, maybe we should start a new topic on this. Anyway, I've been most interested in this since playing the Gabriel Knight 3 Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned game. If you are too lazy to investigate this the Holy Grail may be referring to the blood line of Jesus. Also Did Mary Descend From David? and if she was that would lay more creedance to Jesus being the true King of the Jews. Very interesting stuff all around.

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quote:

Originally posted by LostInSpace:

Damn ya beat me to it.
and
. Hmmm, maybe we should start a new topic on this. Anyway, I've been most interested in this since playing the Gabriel Knight 3 Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned game. If you are too lazy to investigate this the Holy Grail may be referring to the blood line of Jesus. Also
and if she was that would lay more creedance to Jesus being the true King of the Jews. Very interesting stuff all around.

First off, you need to stop.

These guys need to discover this stuff on their own, you can't just hand it to them.

Those are some very good links by the way.

Holy Blood, Holy Grail is an excellent book, but they just scratched the surface, they were on the right track, but they missed some stuff.

And Joseph was Davidick, make of that what you will.

Here is an interesting read for all of you. Read the article, but mainly look at his sources, and if further interested, read them.

BUT, always remember....

quote:

Sometimes, the things that may or may not be true, are the things a man needs to believe in the most.

[ 02-16-2004, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

First off, you need to stop.

These guys need to discover this stuff on their own, you can't just hand it to them.

Those are some very good links by the way.

Holy Blood, Holy Grail is an excellent book, but they just scratched the surface, they were on the right track, but they missed some stuff.

And Joseph was Davidick, make of that what you will.

Sorry, I lost my cool seeing your post at 7:30pm I was going to bring this up then I came across your next follow up post and I couldn't believe my eyes!! Someone actually hinted at the Rennes-le-chateau mystery. I try to talk to people about this and I get strange stares or called a blasphemer. Anyway, ahh I just tossed them a few bones to whet their appetites. There's plenty more to discover believe me. Oh yea, those two sites about Rennes-le-chateau are my favorites litteraly I have placed them in my favorites links and there they've sat for a long time going to them from time to time as I roll the stuff around in my head. Also, the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail I think was intended more as a begining to get ya started in this mystery.

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quote:

Originally posted by LostInSpace:

Sorry, I lost my cool seeing your post at 7:30pm I was going to bring this up then I came across your next follow up post and I couldn't believe my eyes!! Someone actually hinted at the Rennes-le-chateau mystery. I try to talk to people about this and I get strange stares or called a blasphemer. Anyway, ahh I just tossed them a few bones to whet their appetites. There's plenty more to discover believe me. Oh yea, those two sites about Rennes-le-chateau are my favorites litteraly I have placed them in my favorites links and there they've sat for a long time going to them from time to time as I roll the stuff around in my head.

Don't be sorry, and look at my edited post above.

I know how you feel, being a student of history is NOT easy.

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God killed Jesus.

or, if you prefer,

Jesus sacrificed himself. (Sacrifice=to make holy)

Regardless of how you look at it, the actors are less important to the story than the moral lesson. Placing blame on something Jesus appearantly wished according to what has been written is simply an excuse to foster hatred in my opinion.

Even if it was a bunch of purple leprechauns who turned him in or crucified him, it would do nothing to diminish the message that you are free to live a good life without worrying about the sins of your fathers. Although it would have been really funny in an odd esoteric way, the message is the same.

Besides, the new testament was written and compiled well after the fact and absorbed the myriad of religions around the authors. For example, the Celtic traditions held that someone could only become a god if they died and came back to life. In my opinion, this is why Jesus is resurrected in the testament of only two of the new testament authors, who oddly migrated into the lands controlled by the 'barbarians' north of greece and then west.

I'd put a lot more faith into the new testament being true if Jesus felt it was neccesary to write anything himself, but he wrote nothing. To me, that is a VERY important point. He was not illiterate, since he had read his holy book and knew what Moses had to say.

I'd talk about my opinions on the origins of the holy grail, but it's late and I need some sleep. Another time perhaps. Besides, I must have irritated somebody by this point. LOL.

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quote:

Originally posted by DREADA:

mankind's all encompassing, vast wisdom and science will prevail and we'll soon learn everything about the universe there is to know

What's funny is that with all the facts that we know about Evolution, it takes more "Faith" to believe in that than the faith that it takes to believe in God.

quote:

Darwin himself said:

"When we descend to details, we can prove that no species has changed (i.e. we cannot prove that a single species has changed); nor can we prove that the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the groundwork of the theory."--Charles Robert Darwin

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Jaguar, how can you say Jesus is a good man if you are Jewish? To a Jew Jesus would eaither be a liar or an evil man because he says he is the son of God and Jews dont belive this to be true otherwise they would all be Christians.(read a book called "More Than A Carpenter" by Josh McDowell, He tried to disprove Christianity but in the end he became one) Also you must not be 100% certain about the information you are talking about, otherwise you would be compelled to tell us. Keeping information hidden that could otherwise save people makes you evil. (Thats just like if you saw somone that couldnt breath and you didnt give them CPR even though you knew how to do it.) You know what else troubles me ? That you never explained how you looked into the possibility that the information that turned you from God is false, some lie, some hoax... If you loved someone and another person told you all these bad things about the person you loved wouldnt you search for the truth? And if questioned about it, provide the truth? But maybe you never really loved Jesus in the first place otherwise you probably never would have turned your back to him. I remember seeing a verse in the bible, but i dont remember the exact verse but it was God saying something to the effect of "If you knew me and then turned on me then you will wish that you were never even born" (keep in mind that Jesus is God)

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