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quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

The Big bang is a specific theory, and a part of cosmology, NOT evolution, evolution is a very specific part of science, ( also a part of cosmology) and at the same time a very general science, considering that MOST, if not all of modern biology is based upon it.

Actually Both Evolution AND the Big Bang are both part of the same "scientific" Theory of where our Universe, Our planet and all life came from. To try to separate them as somehow separate, well that just doesn't make sense. Where did the planets come from, specifically where did earth come from. You're the one that is trying to Ignore one part of the theory and grasp to the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

To toss away evolution or ignore it because it goes against your religion is one of the most ridiculous things that I have seen religions do.


Tell me ONE single part of evolution that is a proven FACT. Evolution is a THEORY, it does not conform to Scientific methods, so if you BELIEVE in evolution, with no proof, then that is the same as my belief in God creating the Universe and everything in it. So you have your religion (Evolution) and I have mine, (My belief in God)

Facts? There are NO facts in science, they are called evidence. Evidence can change via the scientific method, whereas facts cannot. So please, get rid of the creationist strawman argument and let's discuss science, shall we?

Evolution is science, it has massive amounts of evidence to support it, and I mean MASSIVE, so to ignore that evidence because it goes against your religious convictions is just silly as far as I am concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Science is science, religion is religion.


So true, but Science requires Proof, which Evolution doesn't have Again.. it's all theory.

Again, there is NO proof, no facts in science, there is evidence and the scientific method to test that evidence and what it shows to help show that a theory is indeed true. Facts and proofs are the words creationists use because they do not want to and do not understand science.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

They are 2 different realms. One is based on evidence, and conjecture, the other is based on faith and wishes.

So please tell me the Evidence, because all I've seen is faith and wishes on the part of the Evolutionist wanting to be right.

As I said, there are MASSIVE amounts of evidence, and ignoring them is not going to make them go away.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

It is obvious Darkling, that I am frustrating you, so let's place some groundrules.


Don't get a big head, And don't get personal, it's a discussion.


It's a ridiculous discussion in all honesty, because it is the same old creationist nonsense that I see on just about every creationist website.

They are so desperate that they lie about science to prove their point, and do not try to understand it because it seems to threaten them.

Sorry, I hate creationist arguments, it makes me crazy, it's dishonest, it lacks any scientific understanding at all, and above all it's all a bunch of strawmen blowing away in the wind.

With creationists, it's the sound level, the louder they are the more right they think they are, well, sorry, volume level is not going to make a lie the truth. Overwhelm with BS and hope to god that you have baffled the people enough to where they will ignore your opponent, science.

Have you ever seen a LIVE creationist/Evolution argument? I have.

It's sickening to say the least. The creationist gets up there and just overwhelms the evolutionist with nonsense, 50-100 questions of pure BS, and then the evolutionist somehow has to answer all the nonsense in the same amount of time. It ain't gonna happen and the creationist looks like he's some kind of genius, and the evolutionist has been able to make 3 points out of the 50 because of time restraints, so the audience, that is usually loaded with creationists anyway, walk away all smug because the evolutionist was overwhelmed with crap.

It's disgusting and dishonest, just as you are trying to somehow make evolution try to explain cosmology. IT DOESN'T, never has, never will, and to try to tie it to cosmology is dishonest and a creationist strawman.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

evolution is a very specific part of science

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it a Fact. Again, all I'm asking for is FACTS not conjecture, not Theory.

In Science there are theory's and and there are facts. The fact is that science doesn't know if Evolution really happened, all that scientist can do is come up with theory's to explain, but when all is said and done, nothing is yet to be proven. The point I am making that is eluding you so I will try to make myself very clear.

I believe that God made the Universe, the Planets and all living things. I don't believe that living things came from non-living things mostly because no one can prove that something like that has "EVER" happened. I also don't belive in evolution because if it has happened, I think we would see some sort of proof that it has happened. The fossil record shows very simple single celled life forms then all of a sudden very complex organisms with multiple organs, again there's a missing link to explain Evolution. That is my belief, I base it upon both the scientific facts that I know to be true and also I base it upon my belief in God.

You believe in Evolution, again, not because of facts, because there are no facts to support evolution, but you believe it because you have faith in the people that have put together these theory's that they know what they are talking about and have put together a very good idea. That is fine, you have your beliefs and I have my beliefs. You think I'm stupid for having my beliefs and I think you are uninformed for having your beliefs.

When all is said and done however, I don't know for a fact that I am right and you don't know for a fact that you are right. What irks me is that you act as if though you do know for a fact and you don't. There isn't one shred of evidence that anything has ever evolved from anything, just as there isn't a shred of evidence that the earth was created by God. We don't know, and I doubt that we will ever know. But from what I have seen, the evidence SEEMS to support Creation Science more than traditional science. Why, because even the simplest single celled plant, is more complicated than anything that we can imagine, they used to think these things were simple, until they invented Electron Microscopes and realized that they are virtual Miniature Factory's with such incredibly complex chemical reactions that they boggle the best and brightest of us. And for us to think that all this complexity somehow came to be by some cosmic accident, well I just think it's kind of silly.

You may not believe this, but again you have no facts to prove otherwise, so let's just leave it at that.

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Jag, this doesn't sound like you. Normally you are blasting away with evidence to support your point, but here you are reiteriating w/o providing supporting evidence.

It seems to me that this discussion isn't going to go far either way until the one on whom the burden of proof lies posts his evidence for examination,

For the Creationist, we already accept that it is not scientific but requires faith, though we beleive that the evidence seen in nature points toward intelligent design as opposed to mere happenstance. For this I'm sure that Darkling can point you towards information.

For your point, where should one begin to look for the mounds of evidence you are implying exists?

Please don't take this the wrong way folks, but you both need to show more than beaning the other over the head with words.

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quote:

Originally posted by Eclipse:

Please don't take this the wrong way folks, but you both need to show more than beaning the other over the head with words.

There is a ton of "evidence" that I can point to, but the truth is that I'm not trying to convince him that I am right and he is wrong, the point that I'm trying to make is that both of us have our beliefs and that is that. Niether one of us can offer conclusive proof that either one of us is right, but Jag won't accept that, instead he resorts to name calling.

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quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

evolution is a very specific part of science

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it a Fact. Again, all I'm asking for is FACTS not conjecture, not Theory.

In Science there are theory's and and there are facts. The fact is that science doesn't know if Evolution really happened, all that scientist can do is come up with theory's to explain, but when all is said and done, nothing is yet to be proven. The point I am making that is eluding you so I will try to make myself very clear.

I believe that God made the Universe, the Planets and all living things. I don't believe that living things came from non-living things mostly because no one can prove that something like that has "EVER" happened. I also don't belive in evolution because if it has happened, I think we would see some sort of proof that it has happened. The fossil record shows very simple single celled life forms then all of a sudden very complex organisms with multiple organs, again there's a missing link to explain Evolution. That is my belief, I base it upon both the scientific facts that I know to be true and also I base it upon my belief in God.

You believe in Evolution, again, not because of facts, because there are no facts to support evolution, but you believe it because you have faith in the people that have put together these theory's that they know what they are talking about and have put together a very good idea. That is fine, you have your beliefs and I have my beliefs. You think I'm stupid for having my beliefs and I think you are uninformed for having your beliefs.

When all is said and done however, I don't know for a fact that I am right and you don't know for a fact that you are right. What irks me is that you act as if though you do know for a fact and you don't. There isn't one shred of evidence that anything has ever evolved from anything, just as there isn't a shred of evidence that the earth was created by God. We don't know, and I doubt that we will ever know. But from what I have seen, the evidence SEEMS to support Creation Science more than traditional science. Why, because even the simplest single celled plant, is more complicated than anything that we can imagine, they used to think these things were simple, until they invented Electron Microscopes and realized that they are virtual Miniature Factory's with such incredibly complex chemical reactions that they boggle the best and brightest of us. And for us to think that all this complexity somehow came to be by some cosmic accident, well I just think it's kind of silly.

You may not believe this, but again you have no facts to prove otherwise, so let's just leave it at that.


That's great, believe what you want, doesn't matter a hill of beans to me, but remember that cancer treatment that saved your great aunt Beth, thank evolutionary theory for that discovery.

Have you heard about the new treatments that they have come up with to treat parkinsons disease, leukemia, etc, etc ad nauseum, thank the theory of evolution for that, You know all the new flu shots that they come up with every year to fight the NEW strain of Influenza? Thank the theory of evolution for the answer to it.

Does an awful lot for being "just a theory".

Remember Astronomy is "just a theory" remember that electricity is "just a theory" Gravity is "just a theory", computer science is "just a theory", electronics engineering, nanotechnology, rocketry, internal combustion engines are ALL "just theories".

Interesting that, for being "just theories".

Pitiful, just plain pitiful.

Here, you want evidence? Here, you want to know what evolution is? Do you really? For some reason I doubt it.

But here goes, go Here or maybe here or perhaps here this is a fun one, this one may go above the head of some, but still a good read.

this is a fun one to really get the discussion going with creationists, this drives them nuts....

Here's a good one Is evolution science?

I can go on and on and on and on and on, with university websites, researchers websites, personal websites, geneticist websites, medical company websites.

For a Theory that isn't true, it sure has a lot of people, SCIENTISTS and researchers that not only understand it, but believe that it is indeed the BEST theory to explain the evidence that we have.

Since I am not talking to scientist and won't get cussed out by my teachers for saying this.

Evolution is a FACT, it is as close to a fact as a theory can come. There is NO other theory that can explain the evidence as well.

If you disprove evolution, which you won't, it will not make creationism true.

And Eclipse, you're right, I did not give a lot of facts, because I tire of creationist nonsense. It tires me, such intellectual dishonesty is just unreal, and people, people that I would normally consider intelligent fall for it, hook line and sinker. I find it amazing, and so I just tell them that they are full of it and move on, but since you guys want facts to back me up, see the above links, and pay particular attention to Is evolution science, VERY interesting read for those of you who are actually falling for the creationist nonsense.

Believe creationism all you want, but do not think that it makes evolution wrong, because it cannot, does not, and will not.

[ 02-29-2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

cancer treatment that saved your great aunt Beth, thank evolutionary theory for that discovery.

how so?

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Have you heard about the new treatments that they have come up with to treat parkinsons disease, leukemia, etc, etc ad nauseum, thank the theory of evolution for that, You know all the new flu shots that they come up with every year to fight the NEW strain of Influenza? Thank the theory of evolution for the answer to it..

Actually most of those Came from the genome mapping project. Where do you get your fact?

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Remember Astronomy is "just a theory" remember that electricity is "just a theory" Gravity is "just a theory", computer science is "just a theory", electronics engineering, nanotechnology, rocketry, internal combustion engines are ALL "just theories".


Actually, no they are not.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Pitiful, just plain pitiful.

What, that I have a different opinion than your, or that you resort to name calling at the end of a discussion you feel you are losing?

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

For a Theory that isn't true, it sure has a lot of people, SCIENTISTS and researchers that not only understand it, but believe that it is indeed the BEST theory to explain the evidence that we have.

First you acknowledge it's a theory, then You claim it's a fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Evolution is a FACT, it is as close to a fact as a theory can come. There is NO other theory that can explain the evidence as well.

Make up your mind.

P.S. Please excuse Minor spelling errors. I was using my Tablet PC and handwriting recognition sometimes screws up. Who knows, maybe it will evolve into something better

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quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

cancer treatment that saved your great aunt Beth, thank evolutionary theory for that discovery.

how so?

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Have you heard about the new treatments that they have come up with to treat parkinsons disease, leukemia, etc, etc ad nauseum, thank the theory of evolution for that, You know all the new flu shots that they come up with every year to fight the NEW strain of Influenza? Thank the theory of evolution for the answer to it..

Actually most of those Came from the genome mapping project. Where do you get your fact?

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Remember Astronomy is "just a theory" remember that electricity is "just a theory" Gravity is "just a theory", computer science is "just a theory", electronics engineering, nanotechnology, rocketry, internal combustion engines are ALL "just theories".


Actually, no they are not.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Pitiful, just plain pitiful.

What, that I have a different opinion than your, or that you resort to name calling at the end of a discussion you feel you are losing?

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

For a Theory that isn't true, it sure has a lot of people, SCIENTISTS and researchers that not only understand it, but believe that it is indeed the BEST theory to explain the evidence that we have.

First you acknowledge it's a theory, then You claim it's a fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Evolution is a FACT, it is as close to a fact as a theory can come. There is NO other theory that can explain the evidence as well.

Make up your mind.

P.S. Please excuse Minor spelling errors. I was using my Tablet PC and handwriting recognition sometimes screws up. Who knows, maybe it will evolve into something better


how so?

Microbiology is based mainly on evolutionary theory, without the theory of evolution, there would be no theory of microbiology.

Actually most of those Came from the genome mapping project. Where do you get your fact?

Why do you think they did the genome mapping project, because there were number of things that evolution stated HAD to be true, so they had to map the genome to find out. Guess what? So far so good, nothing has been found that is unexpected, thanks to the theory of evolution.

First you acknowledge it's a theory, then You claim it's a fact.

What word games you play, if I were speaking to a scientist, and said that evolution was a fact, I would get pretty much a blank stare and thought that I was stupid, because in science, to scientists, there are no such things as FACTS, only evidence.

To a layman such as yourself, you fail to understand the distinction and instead use it as a means to attack science. Sciences evidence are more fact, then most other things are, and since I am not talking to scientists, I decided that I wouldn't confuse the issue, and I see that you used that against me, as MOST if not all creationists do.

Make up your mind.

Another creationist tactic, remove the disclaimer and then claim that I can't make up my mind.

Here is what I said....

quote:

Since I am not talking to scientist and won't get cussed out by my teachers for saying this.

Evolution is a FACT, it is as close to a fact as a theory can come. There is NO other theory that can explain the evidence as well.


Notice the bold, if I were in my college biology class and told the teacher, who is a researcher, he would have cussed me out one side and down the other, because in science there are NO facts, the sun is hot, theory, it burns at say 3 million degrees at it's surface, that is evidence to back up the theory, but the sun is 3 million degrees at it's surface, yeah, so what, it is NOT a fact, because we may be able to measure it more exactly later on, and maybe it is 3 million 100 thousand, 2 hundred and some odd degrees. Therefore we cannot call it a fact, even though we know with a 99% probability that it is indeed a fact.

Geez, I really hate explaining this basic stuff, so I usually don't, then again, I stated that there are no facts in science, and to a layman, such as yourself, it was bound to confuse.

And I see I missed one, you said about the theories that I stated.

Actually, no they are not.

And actually, THEY ARE!!

They are just as much theories as evolution is, and have just as much evidence and experimentation to back them up.

Sorry, but they are indeed. "just theories" as you like to say, but most theories are about as close to fact as you can get in science.

Now, I am going to move this into LIS's thread, you ask me your creationist questions of evolutions validity, and I will give them a scientifically verifiable answer as to why evolution is indeed true and your answer or question is indeed a strawman.

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Woha... This is the first time I wholeheartedly agree with Jaguar.

Darkling, just because science cannot prove every aspect of a theory doesnÔÇÖt mean that the theory is false. To say that a theory is false, youÔÇÖll have to prove it false. To prove it false youÔÇÖll have to prove it logically. As far as I know, no-one has proven the theory of evolution to be false. This does not mean that the theory is a fact, but it does mean that the theory is probable.

When it comes to religion, nothing has to be logical. You just have to believe in it. No religion, as far as I know, proves anything logically. It is also very difficult to disprove a religion. If I were really far fetched, I could believe in Thor and Odin and the rest of the old Nordic gods. If you told me that the world is not flat, I would answer prove it! You would show me a picture of the planet; I would say that it doesnt prove anything - the photo is false. You would take me to space and show me the planet. And I would say it is an optical illusion, and so on. You probably get the idea, so I wont explain any further.

IÔÇÖm not saying that you must believe in any scientific theories, but if you say a theory is false I would ask for proof because that is what science is all about.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Microbiology is based mainly on evolutionary theory, without the theory of evolution, there would be no theory of microbiology.

Uhmmm.. Microbiology came from Electron Microscopes and the ability to STUDY it. There is nothing Theoretical about Microbiology. Again, where do you get your facts.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Why do you think they did the genome mapping project, because there were number of things that evolution stated HAD to be true, so they had to map the genome to find out. Guess what? So far so good, nothing has been found that is unexpected, thanks to the theory of evolution.

NOTHING FOUND UNEXPECTED??? OK Now, I know that you don't know what you are talking about. One of the BIGGEST theory's of Evolution was Debunked by the Genome Mapping project. Evolutionist held that the Huge area of DNA that wasn't actually used to assign use to the different parts of our bodies was "Junk" DNA, it was left over by the evolutionary process and had bits of DNA left over from the time that we were Ameoba's through to the time that we were apes. The Genome Mapping Project PROVED that this in fact was CORRECTIVE DNA that prevented Errors or Major Changes in DNA. The EXACT opposite of what the Evolutionary Theory said that it was!

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

What word games you play, if I were speaking to a scientist, and said that evolution was a fact, I would get pretty much a blank stare and thought that I was stupid, because in science, to scientists, there are no such things as FACTS, only evidence.

LMFAO, You're really going off the deep end here. OK let's take this slow. Scientist Find a Fact (As above) The fact that they find is that only a small percentage of DNA is actually used by our bodies.

They don't know what the rest does.

They come up with a THEORY to explain what this huge area of DNA is used for.

In other words there is irrefutable FACT, then there is THEORY to explain the unknown.

Later when the Genome Mapping project is complete, they realize that the THEORY that they came up with to Explain this was WRONG, they now have a NEW FACT that has been irrefutably proven that this DNA actually keeps the portion that we use from changing. So in Science you first come up with a THEORY to explain how you THINK something works, and then you set out to PROVE IT. Once you find the true answer, you then have what is called a FACT. If you don't find the true answer, then it is still only a THEORY.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

.... because in science there are NO facts, the sun is hot, theory,

And you accuse ME of playing word games. "The Sun is hot" IRREFUTABLE FACT, not Theory. The evidence doesn't "Suggest" that it is hot, the Evidence PROVES that it is hot, so it is a Fact. SOME researches and scientists like to say that there are no such things as facts, but that's just a bunch of semantics, there is a HUGE distinction in science between irrefutable facts and theory.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Geez, I really hate explaining this basic stuff, so I usually don't, then again, I stated that there are no facts in science, and to a layman, such as yourself, it was bound to confuse.

Please continue, BTW, before I decided to go into Computer Programming, I majored in Biology, I originally wanted to go into research, but please, I'm just a Layman, that understands nothing.

One other thing, your insistence that other areas of science are all Theoretical is a bunch of bull. You donÔÇÖt seem to be able to have the mental capacity to GRASP the fact that there are two distinct areas of science. One area of science deals with the theoretical to try to explain what science, true science canÔÇÖt explain. You seem to be getting that confused with things like Microbiology, which is the study of REAL micro-organisms, not THEORETICAL ones.

When you sit there and say that there are no such things as facts, well is it a Theory that you are alive? Is it a theory that you have blood? Is it a theory that you will die one day? No these are all irrefutable facts; we KNOW them to be true.

However, I have a theory; my theory is that God put us on this earth so we can experience what it is like to live without him. How when we live our daily lives without his guidance we REALLY foul things up, and he wants us to learn that lesson before making everything right. That is a theory, it is unproven, and do I know it to be true, absolutely not. I donÔÇÖt know. Just as scientist donÔÇÖt know for a fact that living things came from non-living things, why because it has NEVER been proven, theyÔÇÖve tried over and over again and put the best of the worlds minds on it to duplicate the ÔÇ£pond scumÔÇØ that we came from, but they couldnÔÇÖt do it. So it remains in the theoretical realm, not in the factual realm of things that CAN be proven. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you will start to understand the creationist view. Note that I didnÔÇÖt say you had to believe it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Vixef:

Woha... This is the first time I wholeheartedly agree with Jaguar.

Darkling, just because science cannot prove every aspect of a theory doesnÔÇÖt mean that the theory is false.

Did I ever say that the theory of Evolution was false? What are you reading?

What I said is that the theory of Evolution is just that. It is a Theory. Just because I said that it's not a fact doesn't mean that I said it is false.

The main point that I'm trying to make here is that Evolutionists have their Theory and Creationist have their Theory. Evolutionists have facts to "support" their claims and Creationist have facts to "support" their claims, but neither side can be PROVEN correct. What about this isn't true?

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I am going to completely ignore your post above this one, because it is so full of gerneralities and Basic misinformation that I am NOT even going to waste my time. besides the fact you are still trying to put evolution and abiogenesis together, and they are totally separate

Oh and for a biology student, you don't know much about biology. your generalities would have gotten me yelled at by the professor in a heartbeat for being incomplete and totally without merit and totally lacking logical thinking skills.

We'll concentrate on this one instead.

quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

Originally posted by Vixef:

Woha... This is the first time I wholeheartedly agree with Jaguar.

Darkling, just because science cannot prove every aspect of a theory doesnÔÇÖt mean that the theory is false.

Did I ever say that the theory of Evolution was false? What are you reading?

What I said is that the theory of Evolution is just that. It is a Theory. Just because I said that it's not a fact doesn't mean that I said it is false.

The main point that I'm trying to make here is that Evolutionists have their Theory and Creationist have their Theory. Evolutionists have facts to "support" their claims and Creationist have facts to "support" their claims, but neither side can be PROVEN correct. What about this isn't true?


The italicis what I want to concentrate on here.

Creationists have facts to support their claims? Pardon me? I am choking on my drink here.

I have yet to see ANY credible facts to back up creationism. You have the bible, that's it, that's ALL....

Evolution, whether you like it or not, is a fact, it happened, the only people that refuse to understand it or ignore that are a small minority of religious zealots, and they turn the volume up so high that you would think that science was some great conspiracy.

OK, as I said, let's move this into LIS's thread, and have some fun.

Anthing that you bring me, that are facts about creationism, have been proven to be either false, or lied about, or scientifically impossible.

So bring it on and let's have some fun, shall we?

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Just from reading through the thread... the generalization of Evolution being theory/fact whatever is a bunch of semantics.

My own belief (forgive the middle-of-the-road approach) is that the "Theories" are simply educated guesses made up of smaller facts or generally accepted conclusions.

So when Jag says that Microbiology was formed because of Evolution... it doesn't mean Evolution is any more true than it was... it simply means that the train-of-thought working through the theory had the side effect of creating new ideas and theories. No different than brainstorming. Even if the theory of Evolution IS proven wrong in the future - it doesn't mean all the applied sciences and ideas that were developed in relation are also wrong.

Even so, just because one of the smaller sciences that were formed is proven right - isn't inclusive as to the theory of Evolution being right as a whole.

My 2 cents.

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quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

Originally posted by Vixef:

Woha... This is the first time I wholeheartedly agree with Jaguar.

Darkling, just because science cannot prove every aspect of a theory doesnÔÇÖt mean that the theory is false.

Did I ever say that the theory of Evolution was false? What are you reading?

What I said is that the theory of Evolution is just that. It is a Theory. Just because I said that it's not a fact doesn't mean that I said it is false.

The main point that I'm trying to make here is that Evolutionists have their Theory and Creationist have their Theory. Evolutionists have facts to "support" their claims and Creationist have facts to "support" their claims, but neither side can be PROVEN correct. What about this isn't true?


I wasn't going to answear you post, since there are another thread which discusses the topic. But I..., I can't resist... Have to follow my instincts... Even when it is leading me to certain doom....

Yup, you're right, you haven't said that the theory of evolution is false. My fault. But I do disagree with you when you are claiming that creationists have facts to support their claim. They have a believe and that's about it. Furhtermore, evolutionists have "evidence", and theories to support them. This makes their claims probable. And for me, that does mean that they also have more valid claims.

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I think it all comes down to me that 150 years ago, Evolution was touted as THE truth and more and more evidence has appeared that it's watered it down to where it's still considered TRUE only because it alters it's definition to fit the evidence available. In that sense, it will always be true - even if we scientifically proved that God created man, Evolutionists could still say "Changes do happen over time so we are still right".

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quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

I think it all comes down to me that 150 years ago, Evolution was touted as THE truth and more and more evidence has appeared that it's watered it down to where it's still considered TRUE only because it alters it's definition to fit the evidence available. In that sense, it will always be true - even if we scientifically proved that God created man, Evolutionists could still say "Changes do happen over time so we are still right".

That's why it is called science $iLk, science nor evolution claim to have the total answer, it will and can change with new evidence, as I stated in another thread, Unlike religion, science is fluid and changes with new discoveries that are made.

I know, it upsets some people that are religious because they feel that for some reason they cannot rely on science because it often changes, well, it's the nature of science. It changes, if it were not able to change, it would be religion.

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quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Sorry, not at all scientific, it is the crackpots that are afraid of saying "we don't know".

But evolution IS scientific? OK let's review.

One day there was nothing then BANG

Here's the Universe! Where did it come from? No where it formed itself!?! OK Very scientific.

It's like the Magician pulling the Rabbit out of the hat, BUT WAIT!

There is no Hat and there is no Magician, just poof!

Very scientific indeed.


Sorry, I just reread this and I cannot help myself.

OK, so one day there was nothing, and then God appeared, POOF, bang, there was God.

Where did God come from?

Then one day he decided that he was going to create the universe, so BOOM, he did, out of NOTHING he created something. Magic, boom, there it was.

It is indeed the magician pulling a rabbit out of NOTHING.

So, where did God come from, that's right, he just always existed, so what motivated god to create the universe? Well, he just did, well, how did god create the universe from nothing? He's God....

Right?

Sounds just as questionable if not more so.

At least in science I can verify that it is indeed true, with god, anything can happen I suppose, because all you have to say is God did it, and boom, there's your answer.... no proof necassary, no checking to see if it's true, just God did it....

Man, we'd be living in caves if all we ever said was God did it, and left it at that.

Science is falsifiable, it is checked, double checked, triple checked by others to make sure that it is either true, or as close to the truth as we can get with the evidence we have.

So, it's either, "god did it" which tells us nothing, or we ask science to try and find out.

I mean, come on, where did God come from, who created God? if you're gonna start getting stupid, I can go there too.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

The Jews did it.

ROFLMAO!! You are bad.....

I always loved this little saying.

quote:

Life is the universe contemplating itself....

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Where did God come from?


Λ and Ω

Revelation 1:8, 21:6, & 22:13

The only answer that I've found to why everything is. Science still hasn't offered up any explanation at all to existence itself.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Where did God come from?


Can an Ant understand how an automobile works? God has no beginning and not end, we don't understand this just as the and will never understand the automobile. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

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quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

quote:

Where did God come from?


Λ and Ω

Revelation 1:8, 21:6, & 22:13

The only answer that I've found to why everything is. Science still hasn't offered up any explanation at all to existence itself.


OK, let's get this straightened out.

First off, I think it's great that you guys have a faith in a supreme being that gives you comfort and helps you in times of need,and provides the answers you seek.

I have no trouble with that at all, NONE whatsoever, I think it's wonderful.

Here is where I have the problem and why I get so frustrated with you.

Here is the major difference between religion and science.

Religion: Has drawn a conclusion, it is written, it is the way things are. Then you look for evidence. OK, so conclusion first, then evidence. Conclusion are concrete and cannot and will not change, if evidence to the contrary is found, it is said to have been made by the devil, or thoroughly ignored.

Science: Looks at the evidence, and continues to look at the evidence and creates a theory(conclusion) for lack of a better term. So, evidence first, then draws a conclusion from that evidence. Science is very soft, it can change it's conclusions on the basis of new evidence.

Religion claims to have ALL the answers, "God did it"

Science claims to have NO answers, yes, I said science claims to have NO answers, because NOTHING in science is 100%, it is philisophical in nature and can and will change if more evidence comes to light. A conclusion can and will change if a better conclusion can be drawn from the evidence, the evidence can even change if something else is found out about it.

These are the MAJOR differences in science and religion.

Religion has the all the answers, and evidence to the contrary is either fought or ignored, or in the case of evolution, misrepresented.

Religion HATES science, because sometimes, science will draw a conclusion that just cannot be borne, and religion demands that sciences conclusions be changed to fit religions conclusions.

Science looks at religion, shakes it's head and continues to do what it does, because Science cannot come to a conclusion first and look for evidence, unless a theory makes a prediction, then it looks for that prediction in order to verify that the theory is correct.

One other item, religion, is NONfalsifiable, in other words, the existence of god cannot be proven nor disproven, therefore "God did it" is viable evidence for a conclusion in religion.

Science HAS to falsifiable, if a theory CANNOT be disproven in some way, in other words, if a theory does not predict things that would make the theory false then it is NOT and cannot be a theory. "God did it" is not a valid piece of evidence in science, and one of the reasons Intelligent design is NOT science. God did it, cannot be falsified, therefore science HAS to ignore the existence or nonexistence of god.

It is TOTALLY secular, because it HAS to be, or it would get no where. God did it is nonfalsifiable, and would halt all research into why.

So, because science HAS to ignore the existence or nonexistence of god, religion HATES it.

Because science draw conclusions from evidence presented, religion HATES it.

Because Science sometimes draws conclusion that are in direct opposition to religion, religion vilifies it, tries to discredit it, and in most cases will misrepresent what science says.

You ALL fail to realize the philisophical and soft nature of science, because it HAS to be that way, science HAS to be able to change it's theories when new evidence comes to light, therefore, science does not claim and never will claim that it is 100% correct, nor will it claim to have answers.

You may not like what I say, you may even get angry with me as Darkling has, but the soft nature of science is the way it is, or else it would be as hard set in it's ways as religion, and it would stop.

Evolution may be disproven, it might be, but only with REAL evidence, it may be discovered that god did indeed create us, because the serial number and manufacturing date is found in our DNA somewhere, but even then, "god did it" will not be a scientific answer, great, now we know we were created, now who created us and why will be the next question. Religions would celebrate around the world, but science would keep doing what it does, and then religion will get angry because science discovered that indeed we were created and isn't that enough, and science will say no, that's not enough, now who did it and why.

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quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

BTW, I'm am laughing every time that I post something on here.. I can't believe that you allow yourself to get SO worked up.

I am not owrked up, I just get frustrated when some religious zealot demands that science does something that it was never intended to do.

You claim to understand science, yet demand that it be religion.

It's NOT religion....

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