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Gay Marriages...legal or not?

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Whats your view on it?

I'm just trying to find out how the majority of people here feel about this subject.

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Guest

I'm not even going there, I thought that the evolution debate was bad, uh, uh, I don't think so...

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quote:

Title subject

Gay Marriages...legal or not?


I have thought and pondered for a week or so whether to bring this up.

Technically probably legal.

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Guest $iLk

On one hand - I support the decision of people to do whatever they would like in the privacy of their own home - i.e. I wouldn't condone a witchunt against Gays...

However in regards to the Marriage thing - I don't believe that gay couples should enjoy the same right because on one hand imagine how much money it would cost the taxpayers when all these couples start suing for back benefits.

On another, my view is that marriage is one of the cornerstones of our society. Gay marriage is just another step to divorce our society from the Nuclear family which was the foundation of our society for thousands of years.

Why can't they just call themselves married as opposed to forcing society to accept their lifestyle through legal action that is against the will of the people? People voted against it = activist judges decided to implement it.

I don't believe it should be legal.

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Gay Marriages is an exthremely touchy subject Most.

Personaly, I'm completely against it. I'm also against them having ANY rights that a married couple (male and female) have.

This will be one of the contributers to America's downfall and eventually, destruction

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Actually, I think this whole gay marriage thing is a plot by lawyers to increase their divorce revenue!

Also, all I can say is this is going to be nightmare. Say you have married gay couples and they have kids either by adoption or invitro and they get divorced does the other half of the couple have to pay child support because technicaly if it's a male-male relationship they are both fathers and women-women they are both mothers.

There's going to have to be a legal declaration as to who is going to be considered the mother or father of the children. Ugh, I got a headache. More money for the legal profession I guess.

[ 03-03-2004, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: LostInSpace ]

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I agree completly with Silk on this one. I have no problem with gays, lesbians, or bisexuals however I believe that that type of action should be kept in their own homes.

Being gay, lesbian, or bisexual does not make them bad people. However, from a religious perspective marriage is a sacrament with a lot of sanctity to it and I believe that a marriage is sacreligious in the eyes of God and of most Churches around the world.

Practically, I agree. The majority of people in the US are against gay marriages however those in power abuse it and ignore the people for politics. I believe it should not be legal and I also stand beside President Bush for standing up to it.

Also, I think it's fine to be proud of being gay, lesbian, or bisexual. I'm proud of being heterosexual, however, I don't go out and cram it down peoples throats.

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Why am I even getting into this?

I dunno, but I'll throw in my $.02

First of all, I have no problem with people finding what makes them happy.

My Ex Wife jumped the proverbial fence after 16 years of marriage. She now lives with a Lesbian partner who is often mistaken for a man.

My children were the victims of ridicule in school because of their mother's actions.

Strike 1.

Is this type of behavior seen in nature?

You don't see gay and lesbian dogs doing the nasty do you? Or any other animal for that matter. Although you will see animals that will form an attachement to another animal of the same sex. I will use Lion prides and Wolf Packs as an example. But that is a purely social animal requirement for all to survive.

The legal implications are mind bogling.

Just what we all need. Another way to make lawyers rich so they can run for office and really get rich by really screwing us all.

So, should Gays get a free pass to 1st base just because they have 4 balls on them?

I don't think so.

Strike 2

The bisexuals who are spreading AIDS like Peanut Butter and murdering innocent people.

Those folks should be rooted out like McCarthy's Commies and put in isolation.

Strike 3

Game over.

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Guest $iLk

quote:

Marriage was instituted in Paradise when man was in innocence (Gen. 2:18-24). Here we

have its original charter, which was confirmed by our Lord, as the basis on

which all regulations are to be framed (Matt. 19:4, 5). It is evident that

monogamy was the original law of marriage (Matt. 19:5; 1 Cor. 6:16). This law

was violated in after times, when corrupt usages began to be introduced (Gen.

4:19; 6:2). We meet with the prevalence of polygamy and concubinage in the

patriarchal age (Gen. 16:1-4; 22:21-24; 28:8, 9; 29:23-30, etc.). Polygamy was

acknowledged in the Mosaic law and made the basis of legislation, and continued

to be practised all down through the period of Jewish histroy to the Captivity,

after which there is no instance of it on record. It seems to have been the

practice from the beginning for fathers to select wives for their sons (Gen.

24:3; 38:6). Sometimes also proposals were initiated by the father of the

maiden (Ex. 2:21). The brothers of the maiden were also sometimes consulted

(Gen. 24:51; 34:11), but her own consent was not required. The young man was

bound to give a price to the father of the maiden (31:15; 34:12; Ex. 22:16, 17;

1 Sam. 18:23, 25; Ruth 4:10; Hos. 3:2) On these patriarchal customs the Mosaic

law made no change. In the pre-Mosaic times, when the proposals were accepted

and the marriage price given, the bridegroom could come at once and take away

his bride to his own house (Gen. 24:63-67). But in general the marriage was

celebrated by a feast in the house of the bride's parents, to which all friends

were invited (29:22, 27); and on the day of the marriage the bride, concealed

under a thick veil, was conducted to her future husband's home. Our Lord

corrected many false notions then existing on the subject of marriage (Matt.

22:23-30), and placed it as a divine institution on the highest grounds. The

apostles state clearly and enforce the nuptial duties of husband and wife (Eph.

5:22-33; Col. 3:18, 19; 1 Pet. 3:1-7). Marriage is said to be "honourable"

(Heb. 13:4), and the prohibition of it is noted as one of the marks of

degenerate times (1 Tim. 4:3). The marriage relation is used to represent the

union between God and his people (Isa. 54:5; Jer. 3:1-14; Hos. 2:9, 20). In the

New Testament the same figure is employed in representing the love of Christ to

his saints (Eph. 5:25-27). The Church of the redeemed is the "Bride, the Lamb's

wife" (Rev. 19:7-9).


Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Metrosexual - whatever you do in the privacy of your own home is fine and dandy. No one is bothering you, and as long as you aren't ramming it down other people's throats *cough*figuratively*cough* no one really cares. I personally disagree with it morally, but am I weilding a torch and beating down your door? I honestly don't care, it's between you and God - and I don't feel it's my place to judge you.

Gay rights? The same as everyone else isn't it? You don't hear me complaining for hetero rights do you?

Marriage is a sacred commitment for two people in a nuclear family setting of husband, wife, and children. Any tax breaks, etc. are handled because of the expectation that children are to be borne of this arrangement.

As far as gays who have children - the IRS has already got you covered with programs like EIC.

If you want to arrange for what happens through marriage (property, trusts, etc.) through a will - it's entirely possible by filing a different arrangement through the legal system. The courts are not preventing you from enjoying the same things that a married couple do - you just have to go about it a different way.

Be life-partners or whatever... doesn't matter. But by trying to force your world-view which is obviously not 'normal' on (what's left of) the sane population of the world you are only hurting your own cause by attacking that which is most sacred.

Even if you don't prescribe to God - Marriage is a religious institution - and should not be altered by people who are only doing it for the same shock value that they get from roaming down Times Square with their ass hanging out of tight leather pants with a ball-gag in their mouth riding on a big penis float that is multi-colored like the rainbow.

There is no purpose or reason for changing the definition of marriage other than to:

A. Force this view on people as normal

B. Create shock value

C. Attack the Christian Right through the Activist Judges

Keep it in your own homes - just like I don't go out flaunting my hetero activities with my g/f in the middle of the street. If you are a homosexual - I don't hate you, I can even be your friend. But I'm not going to buy your warped view of "the way it works".

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Bleh... Whatever happened to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"...? Bush is working on doing away with it, that's what. The government has NO buisness poking into people's relationships, though they (the gays) should not be advertising their relationship, themselves.

It will certainly NOT be the end of the US if gay marraiges are legalized. It's just a step closer to doing away with pointless discrimination and stupidity.

This would not be such a touchy issue if people werent so narrow minded, completely refusing other viewpoints.

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Guest $iLk

*Cracks knuckles and begins to warm up

quote:

Whatever happened to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"...?


I fail to see how any of the three would be affected for a homosexual/bisexual/metrosexual/transexual/supersexual or whatever 'they' call themselves.

They are not being deprived of life.

The only bit of 'liberty' they are being 'deprived' of is that they are not allowed to break the law that is established... no different than any other crime. No one is barring them from doing what they want privately - but it isn't a "right" to have your degenerate behavior recognized, applauded, rubber-stamped, and paraded out for the masses.

The pursuit of happiness is just that - not guaranteed to find it.

quote:

Bush is working on doing away with it, that's what.

That's a pretty blanket statement. How pray tell?

quote:

The government has NO buisness poking into people's relationships

And they haven't. The government has taken a stand to prevent activist judges from attempting to rewrite a cornerstone of our society to mean what they want it to mean.

quote:

It will certainly NOT be the end of the US if gay marraiges are legalized. It's just a step closer to doing away with pointless discrimination and stupidity.

Pointless discrimination? Of who? Why not allow people who like to have sex with animals to marry their dogs? "Legalize it or else you are discriminating against their 'normal' behavior!"

It will be the end of the US as we know it if we are further removed from what made our society great. Ma, Pa, and Applepie. The nuclear family in our society is supposed to be a Man, Woman, and children. By changing and distorting that, you do nothing but create a generation of sad - confused boys and girls who are victimized themselves by the urgings of lust rather than responsible upbringing.

Not to mention the rapid Aids infestation.

quote:

This would not be such a touchy issue if people werent so narrow minded, completely refusing other viewpoints.

Maybe there is a place where this moral relativism needs to end and common decency and sense needs to take over. Child pornography wouldn't be such a touchy issue if we all tried to 'understand' the views of NAMBLA. Michael Jackson didn't molest those children - he made love to them.

Regardless of whatever the warped view is that we are asked to accept - I'm quite certain that our society would be much better off if people quit thinking in the 'now' of relativism and started focusing on the important things in life such as earning a living and raising your children the right way. While you may not agree that the Bible is the word of God - I don't think anyone can reach into the New Testament and pull out anything that could remotely be considered bad advice in regards to family and relationships.

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It should be legal. Most of the arguments put forth against it are fairly ludicrous, but that's what happens when rational/legal matters conflict with emotional/spiritual ones.

In a society with a 50% divorce rate and roughly the same figures for both genders admitting to adultry, defending the "sanctity" of marriage quickly becomes moot. And there are far larger threats to our society than a piece of paper and greater legal rights for same-sex couples.

Besides, it's inevitable whether or not it happens in our lifetime.

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Guest $iLk

quote:

It should be legal. Most of the arguments put forth against it are fairly ludicrous, but that's what happens when rational/legal matters conflict with emotional/spiritual ones.


No examples and no counterpoints... wave the magic Wand of +3 liberal dodging and make a blanket statement without offering some kind of alternative besides apathy and moral relativism.

quote:

In a society with a 50% divorce rate and roughly the same figures for both genders admitting to adultry, defending the "sanctity" of marriage quickly becomes moot.


That's a totally different topic - but it's important to draw comparisons to the moral relativism that has so successfully been imparted onto the youth. Thank God my parents actually raised me and even though they made mistakes they taught me the errors. Just as I've made mistakes I hopefully will impart some of the moral qualities that were brought into me by my family - my father's side anyway - I can't find people anywhere in the world that I respect more for their hard work and dedication to living life the way it ought to be lived.

quote:

And there are far larger threats to our society than a piece of paper and greater legal rights for same-sex couples.


So by your argument even the Constitution is just a 'piece of paper' that doesn't really matter. Is it not wholly unfulfilling in the long run to live with such apathy?

And greater legal rights? They have the same rights as everyone else! And as I pointed out earlier - where does it stop? Why not make interspecies marriages legal?

The foundation of marriage is religious and such should remain a religious matter between man and woman. As I noted earlier - the legal rights which are automatically afforded married couples can be approached from a different direction by homosexuals by legal agreements, trusts, etc. as opposed to attempting to force their worldview on others.

quote:

Besides, it's inevitable whether or not it happens in our lifetime.

True enough unless people open their eyes and view the damage that has been caused to society without taking something as drastic as 9/11 for a wakeup call.

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quote:

Originally posted by Kartoffel:

Bleh... Whatever happened to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"...?

Well, why not take this a bit furthur? Why not allow people to marry more than one partner? While we're at it, let's let people get married to their brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, mothers & fathers? I mean as long as they're consenting adults right.

There are many animals that clearly love their owners, why not let the owners marry their animals too?

You know what, why even bother getting Married, I mean what's the point, it used to be this old fasioned idea of Raising a famlily, and making a pact with God, but with today's extended families that really doesn't exist any more and God doesn't matter anymore right?

Why not we just all do this, we see someone we want to sleep with and we move in together and do it like Jackrabbits. When we get tired, we simply move on. I mean we don't need these silly old fasion values like Morals any more right? Or even better, let's do like the Africans do and get Married or not, and have several mistresses and squeezes on the side. I mean so what if half the population over there is dying of AIDS, we have condoms to protect us right?

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quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

No examples and no counterpoints... wave the magic
Wand of +3 liberal dodging
and make a blanket statement without offering some kind of alternative besides apathy and moral relativism.

Ok, here's some. By the way it's a Wand of +10 independent thinking.

quote:

However in regards to the Marriage thing - I don't believe that gay couples should enjoy the same right because on one hand imagine how much money it would cost the taxpayers when all these couples start suing for back benefits.

Could you sue for back benefits for the years you and your wife were together before marriage?

quote:

On another, my view is that marriage is one of the cornerstones of our society. Gay marriage is just another step to divorce our society from the Nuclear family which was the foundation of our society for thousands of years..

I can understand why you would believe that, but what historical evidence do we have that proves gay marriage has resulted in the downfall of a society? I don't think there is any, but then again I'm not a historian either. I guess some might point to Rome, but I'm sure there are historians who would disagree with that parallel.

quote:

Why can't they just call themselves married as opposed to forcing society to accept their lifestyle through legal action that is against the will of the people? People voted against it = activist judges decided to implement it.

I agree, it shouldn't be forced on anyone. If someone could bring a sound legal case against the idea then it wouldn't be an issue. That's the problem, legally, it doesn't hold water. I don't see a lot of lawyers scrambling to tackle this one.

quote:

... I personally disagree with it morally, but am I weilding a torch and beating down your door? I honestly don't care, it's between you and God - and I don't feel it's my place to judge you.

Yes, God is the ultimate judge so leave it up to him.

quote:

Gay rights? The same as everyone else isn't it? You don't hear me complaining for hetero rights do you?.

Um...maybe that's because you have them. I'm sure that similar arguments were heard during the times other minorities were struggling for rights in our country. Hard to believe it was just the late sixties when we had to ban laws that sought to make interracial marriages illegal.

quote:

So by your argument even the Constitution is just a 'piece of paper' that doesn't really matter. Is it not wholly unfulfilling in the long run to live with such apathy?

No, the Constitution does matter AND it's ammendable!!!

Apathy?...Do I know you?

quote:

And greater legal rights? They have the same rights as everyone else! And as I pointed out earlier - where does it stop? Why not make interspecies marriages legal?

See..that's what I mean when I say ludicrous. Inter-species is an entirely different issue, hang on, I need to feed my goat.

quote:

The foundation of marriage is religious and such should remain a religious matter between man and woman.

It's a shame Jag won't play, I'm sure he'd provide evidence that the roots of marriage lie in property and inheritence.

You're right Silk, it IS a religious matter, to you and many other people. I can fully understand why you and so many others find it offensive. For the record, I am neither gay nor religious, so I try my best to be objective and when I view this topic as a legal rights issue I have to support it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

Hard to believe it was just the late sixties when we had to ban laws that sought to make interracial marriages illegal.

And why was it that we banned those laws? Because the ACLU headed by Christian Leaders banned together with the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King and said that it was wrong and Immoral.

Today, (especially with the ACLU being headed up by atheists) if someone were to say that something is wrong and Immoral, they would fly back with "Don't shove your morals down my throat!".

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I used the "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", because it would have looked (to me) rather odd to just have part of that. I had really been only refering to the liberty, and to a lesser extent, the happiness part.

Bush is doing away with it by pushing the anti-homosexual marriage stuff.

quote:

And they haven't. The government has taken a stand to prevent activist judges from attempting to rewrite a cornerstone of our society to mean what they want it to mean.


Instead, they push their meaning of it.

quote:

Pointless discrimination? Of who? Why not allow people who like to have sex with animals to marry their dogs? "Legalize it or else you are discriminating against their 'normal' behavior!"

I called it pointless discriminatiopn, because, to me, it seems that way. Pointless, because they're really not likely to change. Discrimination, because they are people, just like you or me, just with differing beliefs. About letting people have sex with animals, to each their own.

Though from an extremely cynical point of view, it would at least help with the overpopulation problem.

quote:

Maybe there is a place where this moral relativism needs to end and common decency and sense needs to take over. Child pornography wouldn't be such a touchy issue if we all tried to 'understand' the views of NAMBLA. Michael Jackson didn't molest those children - he made love to them.

I did not say that you should accept the other side without question - just that you not throw it aside without looking at it. Some things, may be inherently wrong, but that doesnt mean that those you disagree with completely wrong, either.

Also, what is NAMBLA? Not familiar with that acronym.

quote:

Well, why not take this a bit furthur? Why not allow people to marry more than one partner? While we're at it, let's let people get married to their brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, mothers & fathers? I mean as long as they're consenting adults right.


If they are consenting adults, know the consequences of it, then by all means, let them. Perhaps a study on inbreeding would be worthwhile, for a warning, but if their religion allows it, or whatever, and they want to, and have thought it out well, the government has no buisness stepping between them.

quote:

There are many animals that clearly love their owners, why not let the owners marry their animals too?

There is parental, or familial love (which would be the 'love' your animal feels, I think it would be more of a friendship), and then there is romantic love.

quote:

You know what, why even bother getting Married, I mean what's the point, it used to be this old fasioned idea of Raising a famlily, and making a pact with God, but with today's extended families that really doesn't exist any more and God doesn't matter anymore right?


If a common law marriage is enough, by all means, let that be it. You can still raise a family, do whatever. It's just without the pomp and formality of a 'true' marriage.

God may very well matter. I just dont believe in a god (though I dont disbelieve in a god - I'm agnostic)

quote:

Why not we just all do this, we see someone we want to sleep with and we move in together and do it like Jackrabbits. When we get tired, we simply move on. I mean we don't need these silly old fasion values like Morals any more right? Or even better, let's do like the Africans do and get Married or not, and have several mistresses and squeezes on the side. I mean so what if half the population over there is dying of AIDS, we have condoms to protect us right?

If both are consenting, then I would have no problem with it, when they want to move apart, then let them.

If those in the harem you imply are doing it without duress, then... if they want to...

I never claimed morals were unnecescary. Without ethics & whatnot, it would be complete anarchy. Or a dictatorship. Or something. In any cast, I wouldent want that, and I'm sure you wouldent.

There is a thing called common sense, for you and your partner(s) to be tested. It's not like you'd want to have sex with someone that you know has AIDS, right?

Times are changing, and things need to change with it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Kartoffel:

I never claimed morals were unnecescary. Without ethics & whatnot, it would be complete anarchy. Or a dictatorship. Or something. In any cast, I wouldent want that, and I'm sure you wouldent.

And who would set the Moral Standard? You? The Moral standard has already been set, like it or not, this country was BUILT on God's Moral Standard. But people come in and want to create their own standards, that's how we ended up with Slavery, because people thought, heck, I don't need God telling me what to do. Only when people were reminded of the Moral standards that God has put in place for us, was Slavery eventually abolished, but it took the creation of a whole new Party, the Republican Party, to get it done. Because the establishment (the Democrats) were unwilling to take on the unpopular issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Kartoffel:

There is a thing called common sense, for you and your partner(s) to be tested. It's not like you'd want to have sex with someone that you know has AIDS, right?

Common sense? People are emotional beings, there is no "Common Sense" in Homosexuality, it's all emotional. Common sense would be to marry the opposite partner to perpetuate the species, that would be common sense. If people DID use common sense we wouldn't have 99% of the problems we have today. This is the reason why we need Moral Standards and Laws to keep people in line, because left to our own devices, people are greedy, immoral, selfish and just plain evil. Look at a child, especially one who has not been disciplined. The child acts like a Tyrant. The child thinks he/she is the center of the universe. Only with Loving and Disciplined Parents does the child grow up to be a contributing member of society.

quote:

Originally posted by Kartoffel:

Times are changing, and things need to change with it.

What has changed? The Romans tried this experiment, look at what happened to them. Marriage is timeless, it was created by God. The homosexual community may have won this battle, but it won't last. Eventually when the United States falls in a few hundred years, the true institution of Marriage will still be here. Homosexuality will be back in the closet. We tend to look at things from such thin slices of time that we seem to forget that this all happened before, the debates have been raging for Millenia, nothing ever REALLY changes.

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I cannot comment on this subject as I myself have abused the sacrement of marriage and I will be considered to be committing audultery by the Catholic Church unless I pay them 700.00, or leave, i chose the later.

~He who is without sin cast the first stone~ Not sure if I quoted that right or not.

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Guest Remo Williams

Whatever floats their boat is all I have to say on this subject.

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Guest

quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

Eventually when the United States falls in a few hundred years,
the true institution of Marriage will still be here. Homosexuality will be back in the closet. We tend to look at things from such thin slices of time that we seem to forget that this all happened before, the debates have been raging for Millenia, nothing ever REALLY changes. [/QB]

You are an optimist, a few hundred years?

At the rate of decay, I give it max 25 years, and probably less........ you and I and our children will be alive when it happens.....

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quote:

Originally posted by echo:

I cannot comment on this subject as I myself have abused the sacrement of marriage and I will be considered to be committing audultery by the Catholic Church unless I pay them 700.00, or leave, i chose the later.

~He who is without sin cast the first stone~ Not sure if I quoted that right or not.

now that's just wrong on the part of the Catholic church by doing that. i mean im catholic as well.

but i'll add my 2 cents as well even though they are worhtless heh

quote:

This will be one of the contributers to America's downfall and eventually, destruction


really? how so?

i'm against it but what happened to seperation of church and state? even though i'm not even sure that has anything to do with this issue at all

quote:

I have no problem with gays, lesbians, or bisexuals however I believe that that type of action should be kept in their own homes.


exactly and that's how it should be.

quote:

Why am I even getting into this?


good question

quote:

The foundation of marriage is religious and such should remain a religious matter between man and woman.

i agree with all that $ilk said on this especially since he's gone through his hard times.

well anyway just my worthless 2 cents. have a nice day

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

At the rate of decay, I give it max 25 years, and probably less........ you and I and our children will be alive when it happens.....

Who knows you may be right, things do happen so much faster these days. Personally though I think there will be a short revival of conservatism, followed by more decay and eventual self implosion. Social Security is a ticking Time Bomb, along with the EXTREMELY high dropout rates in our schools. Remember, it's more important for our children to have Condoms than books!

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quote:

Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

At the rate of decay, I give it max 25 years, and probably less........ you and I and our children will be alive when it happens.....

Who knows you may be right, things do happen so much faster these days. Personally though I think there will be a short revival of conservatism, followed by more decay and eventual self implosion. Social Security is a ticking Time Bomb, along with the EXTREMELY high dropout rates in our schools. Remember, it's more important for our children to have Condoms than books!


I wish what you were saying was true, but the Republican have lost their direction, they are just as much into vote buying as the Democrats are.

The constitution is just so much toilet paper, and this "no child left behind" Nonsense is just that, nonsense. Then you have the latest and greatest new giveaway, prescription drugs. Social Security, forget about it, that ponzi scheme is going to explode in less then 5 years, the baby boomers are starting to hit, and when that happens, WHAM!! Forget about it....

We're screwed, the train is accelerating, and there is a sharp curve in the track and the brake is broken. This puppy is gonna crash, and crash hard.... Sooner then later....

If the Republicans had been on the ball when Reagan was in office and had it together, we could have saved it, but now it's too little too late, and the Republicans are adding coal to the engine.

The economy and people of this country can only take so much, before the whole thing comes apart at the seams....

This Gay marriage thing is just a symptom of the disease, the disease is rampant or it would never have gotten this far.

Oh, and as far as your last comment is concerned, this is ONE of the reasons I homeschool all 3 of my kids...

PS: I consider myself an optimist.....

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