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Uniformed troops should bring a sense of shame

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Jag, they're right. That wasn't just a rebuttle, that was a flame and a half full of seething anger. You, of all people, are usually one to frown upon such a thing. I don't see why you should get so emotional over this. Street may be hilariously and irrevocably clueless, but I don't think it was right of you to resort to such a spiteful personal attack. Afterall, the description of this forum is: "This forum is for intelligent discussions about politics & region. No flaming. No rudeness. And no Taliban!" I'm pretty sure you broke all three of these rules in one fell swoop. Now back to the issue at hand...

quote:

Duty and sacrifice are the myths with which old men send young men off to die.

This is the only statement I agree with. I believe it is simply a clever disguise to hide what war is: savagery and murder. No matter what war, what time, and at what place, this constant never changes. We all like to conveniently forget that fact, so we can sleep at night when we send our soldiers into it. Having said that...

quote:

Each time we see a man in uniform, a deep sense of defeat and shame should overcome us.

This statement makes me ill. It makes me want to murder the man who wrote that. I don't believe any man who sits around spouting off garbage for a living has any right to say a damn thing about the men and women who are dying for him. If people are getting on planes to the ******* of the world and facing imminent death to protect John Morris, some punk-ass kid living comfortably in his suburban home in New Jersey that they don't even know, I am eternally grateful; and I'll be damned before I say a bad word about them.

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quote:

Originally posted by DeepFreeze:

quote:

Each time we see a man in uniform, a deep sense of defeat and shame should overcome us.

This statement makes me ill. It makes me want to murder the man who wrote that. I don't believe any man who sits around spouting off garbage for a living has any right to say a damn thing about the men and women who are dying for him. If people are getting on planes to the ******* of the world and facing imminent death to protect John Morris, some punk-ass kid living comfortably in his suburban home in New Jersey that they don't even know, I am eternally grateful; and I'll be damned before I say a bad word about them.


I think most of you take this far too literally.

On a philosophical level he is 110% correct. Rather than interpret the idea of hanging our heads in shame when we see a man in uniform as a material act, think of it as a moment to reflect on what war means and why it occurs and what we can do to prevent it.

Religion and histories greatest philosophers have always challenged the status quo and asked man to rise above himself to a better place. Jesus was crucified for threatening the establishment and shaking the tree. I don't recall him saying we should exhalt violence and war. Who could possibly disagree with his sentiments about what it means and what is required to be a human being?

The words and ideas Mr. Scofield puts forth may be disturbing and callous, but don't concentrate so much on the words and the scenario, instead think about what he's saying between the lines. It's hardly a ground breaking ideal.

The simple fact of the matter is, if we did what he suggests, we'd that be much farther along the path to abolishing war. If you don't believe it's possible or even right, that's okay because someone out there does. And as history has shown, sometimes that's all it takes.

A civilization that cannot produce people who are willing and able to challenge the current paradigm is doomed to extinction.

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quote:

Originally posted by DeepFreeze:

quote:

Each time we see a man in uniform, a deep sense of defeat and shame should overcome us.

This statement makes me ill. It makes me want to murder the man who wrote that. I don't believe any man who sits around spouting off garbage for a living has any right to say a damn thing about the men and women who are dying for him. If people are getting on planes to the ******* of the world and facing imminent death to protect John Morris, some punk-ass kid living comfortably in his suburban home in New Jersey that they don't even know, I am eternally grateful; and I'll be damned before I say a bad word about them.


I think most of you take this far too literally.

On a philosophical level he is 110% correct. Rather than interpret the idea of hanging our heads in shame when we see a man in uniform as a material act, think of it as a moment to reflect on what war means and why it occurs and what we can do to prevent it.

Religion and histories greatest philosophers have always challenged the status quo and asked man to rise above himself to a better place. Jesus was crucified for threatening the establishment and shaking the tree. I don't recall him saying we should exhalt violence and war. Who could possibly disagree with his sentiments about what it means and what is required to be a human being?

The words and ideas Mr. Scofield puts forth may be disturbing and callous, but don't concentrate so much on the words and the scenario, instead think about what he's saying between the lines. It's hardly a ground breaking ideal.

The simple fact of the matter is, if we did what he suggests, we'd that be much farther along the path to abolishing war. If you don't believe it's possible or even right, that's okay because someone out there does. And as history has shown, sometimes that's all it takes.

A civilization that cannot produce people who are willing and able to challenge the current paradigm is doomed to extinction.

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quote:

if we did what he suggests, we'd that be much farther along the path to abolishing war.

If we did what he suggests, the United States would be nothing more than a barren, cratered landscape. Man has fought since its beginning, and it will fight until its end. It's human nature. Even small children (actually, they're the worst) maliciously taunt and hurt each other. Even though people try not to admit it, and want to stand on the moral high-ground, nothing is so thrilling as handing your foe a well-delivered ass-kicking(well, at least for me, but I may also be a sadistic bastard). Even if we somehow abolished the military (afterall, we are supposed to be ashamed of military personnel, right?), all those other malicious and sadistic people who want what we have will try and take it from us. It is the universal truth. Weakness draws aggression.

Grizzle, maybe you're right that I misinterpreted that statement, but what the author is trying to propose (disband the military, hold hands in the sunshine and skip happily through a field of sunflowers) is just plain silliness. As terrible and gruesome as war may be, without it, we would have nothing. Without the men and women who go and fight wars for us, we would have nothing, and I think it is wrong of the author to denounce the military without acknowledging this much.

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quote:

if we did what he suggests, we'd that be much farther along the path to abolishing war.

If we did what he suggests, the United States would be nothing more than a barren, cratered landscape. Man has fought since its beginning, and it will fight until its end. It's human nature. Even small children (actually, they're the worst) maliciously taunt and hurt each other. Even though people try not to admit it, and want to stand on the moral high-ground, nothing is so thrilling as handing your foe a well-delivered ass-kicking(well, at least for me, but I may also be a sadistic bastard). Even if we somehow abolished the military (afterall, we are supposed to be ashamed of military personnel, right?), all those other malicious and sadistic people who want what we have will try and take it from us. It is the universal truth. Weakness draws aggression.

Grizzle, maybe you're right that I misinterpreted that statement, but what the author is trying to propose (disband the military, hold hands in the sunshine and skip happily through a field of sunflowers) is just plain silliness. As terrible and gruesome as war may be, without it, we would have nothing. Without the men and women who go and fight wars for us, we would have nothing, and I think it is wrong of the author to denounce the military without acknowledging this much.

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As things stand today, I agree. And I agree that violence and war are ingrained into the psyche of man, but there are an awful lot of people in this world who can and do rise above violence as a means to resolve conflict. I am one of them.

I used Jesus as an example in a historical context because many credit him with changing the world and the way people treat one another. There have been many others too, otherwise we'd still be living in caves and beating each other with sticks.

My point is that you have to start somewhere and though it's easy to dismiss these ideas as nothing more than sunshine and roses, it IS possible to reshape civil and social paradigms. Until then we still need our men in uniform and they deserve every ounce of respect we can give them, but lets not cast the idea of peace aside as something utterly unattainable. If we do then it surely will never come to pass.

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As things stand today, I agree. And I agree that violence and war are ingrained into the psyche of man, but there are an awful lot of people in this world who can and do rise above violence as a means to resolve conflict. I am one of them.

I used Jesus as an example in a historical context because many credit him with changing the world and the way people treat one another. There have been many others too, otherwise we'd still be living in caves and beating each other with sticks.

My point is that you have to start somewhere and though it's easy to dismiss these ideas as nothing more than sunshine and roses, it IS possible to reshape civil and social paradigms. Until then we still need our men in uniform and they deserve every ounce of respect we can give them, but lets not cast the idea of peace aside as something utterly unattainable. If we do then it surely will never come to pass.

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The only way for peace and happiness to reign is for EVERYONE to feel that way, but as long as there is ONE person who feels that they can take something by force, then the military is a necassity to protect what we have.

Grizzle, I think that it's great that you feel that you are somehow above it, but what would you do if someone broke into your house and started threatening your children. Would you be above it then, would you sit back and let them do it, because forfe and violence on your part is wrong.

Being a pacifist is fine, but if during an emergency, if you are unwilling to hoist the jolly roger and go to war, then you are a dead pacifist.

Nice dream, but impossible.

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The only way for peace and happiness to reign is for EVERYONE to feel that way, but as long as there is ONE person who feels that they can take something by force, then the military is a necassity to protect what we have.

Grizzle, I think that it's great that you feel that you are somehow above it, but what would you do if someone broke into your house and started threatening your children. Would you be above it then, would you sit back and let them do it, because forfe and violence on your part is wrong.

Being a pacifist is fine, but if during an emergency, if you are unwilling to hoist the jolly roger and go to war, then you are a dead pacifist.

Nice dream, but impossible.

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If you are using Jesus as an example, where did it get him rising above violence? He was killed. And those many others you are talking about, my guess is all of them were killed and none of them died of old age.

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If you are using Jesus as an example, where did it get him rising above violence? He was killed. And those many others you are talking about, my guess is all of them were killed and none of them died of old age.

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Jag, there is a difference between resorting to violence when it is necessary and believing it is the only solution. Of course I would defend myself and my own, but that wouldn't cause me to abandon my beliefs.

Soback, yes he paid the ultimate price, but look at how he reshaped the world, with nothing but words and ideas. Was it worth it?

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Jag, there is a difference between resorting to violence when it is necessary and believing it is the only solution. Of course I would defend myself and my own, but that wouldn't cause me to abandon my beliefs.

Soback, yes he paid the ultimate price, but look at how he reshaped the world, with nothing but words and ideas. Was it worth it?

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I don't know, all I see is people who follow his and Ghandis example to the letter and them and their families end up dying, and I see people picking up the sword to fight evil and them and their families end up living. You tell me....

It's nice to have men who have these ideals, but they only have those ideals when there's other men in front of them that carry the sword and shield that protects them and their families.

You, your kids and your kids kids wouldn't be able to live and practice your passive peaceful life without other men who stand between your way of life and those who try to kill you. So by badmouthing and attacking the military you are thereby badmouthing and attacking the very people that protect you against those that would kill you. That's why I get very frustrated when someone says there's other ways, we should just negotiate and yap yap yap, and that military is bad bad bad, I just want to shove them in front of the military, in the front lines, not behind the front lines and see if they come back with the same attitude, or if they come back at all.

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I don't know, all I see is people who follow his and Ghandis example to the letter and them and their families end up dying, and I see people picking up the sword to fight evil and them and their families end up living. You tell me....

It's nice to have men who have these ideals, but they only have those ideals when there's other men in front of them that carry the sword and shield that protects them and their families.

You, your kids and your kids kids wouldn't be able to live and practice your passive peaceful life without other men who stand between your way of life and those who try to kill you. So by badmouthing and attacking the military you are thereby badmouthing and attacking the very people that protect you against those that would kill you. That's why I get very frustrated when someone says there's other ways, we should just negotiate and yap yap yap, and that military is bad bad bad, I just want to shove them in front of the military, in the front lines, not behind the front lines and see if they come back with the same attitude, or if they come back at all.

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quote:

On a philosophical level he is 110% correct.


This was the ONLY point, I was making. Why ATTACKs seemed to be the LOGICAL response, is beyond me.

quote:

Street started the nonsense, if you don't like it, then don't read it, but quit whining.


Just for your info..., jag, I started nothing, but made an objective observation. ANY response, you have received from your actions, are your own responsibility.

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quote:

On a philosophical level he is 110% correct.


This was the ONLY point, I was making. Why ATTACKs seemed to be the LOGICAL response, is beyond me.

quote:

Street started the nonsense, if you don't like it, then don't read it, but quit whining.


Just for your info..., jag, I started nothing, but made an objective observation. ANY response, you have received from your actions, are your own responsibility.

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