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Citizen In Search of a Leader

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quote:

Originally posted by LostInSpace:

Oh yeah street's lost it he's going bananas now.

It seems so..

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Not to worry, if bush wins, I promise all you radical republicans, I'm leaving your America, and denouncing my citizenship....belgium looking pretty good about now...

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quote:

Originally posted by Kartoffel:

LIS: Your 'proof' is bogus.

That newsmax article is similar to most right-wing propaganda, claiming a Al Qaeda-Iraqi link, jumping to conclusions.

So one member of the Iraqi army was a member of Al Qaeda. Timothy McVeigh was a Bradley gunner, does this mean the U.S. bombed the Alfred P. Murrah building (AKA Oklahoma City bombing)? Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine sharpshooter, does this mean that the American government ordered the assassination of Kennedy? Of course it doesnt. The affiliations of one person does NOT mean the entire group has the same affiliations.

Freerepublic is me-tooing, conservative propaganda, and parroting whatever republican talking point happens to be the most prevalent.

So there was another person affiliated with Al Qaeda, who was also in the Iraqi government. It's entirely reasonable to say that some people in Iraq were involved with Al Qaeda. But by no means does it prove that there was a concerted effort at the higher levels of the government to help Al Qaeda, like you're claiming.

ROFLMAO!!

Are you really going to say such nonsense.

I am talking about the AlQuaeda links at the highest levels.

Saddam MURDERED an Al Quaeda Lieutenant of Osamam Bin Ladens, who came to Iraq for medical treatment.

HE MET with Saddam, and then when he would not do what Saddam wanted him to do, mainly put his cell under Saddams DIRECT control, Saddam ad him murdered.

There are MANY DIRECT links to Saddam and Al Quaeda, as well as ever MORE DIRECT links between the PLO, Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist organizations and Saddam.

Saddam was Neck deep in terrorism, just as Iran and Syria are, although Syria is beginning to freak out, because they have been caught, and are starting to cooperate, Assad may be dumb, but he ain't stupid. And meanwhile Iran continues to send money and fighters over the border into Iraq to help the terrorists, which is another reason they are starting to freak out.

Come after the election, you will see some action, that I imagine will freak you out totally, and it will ALL be because of the war on terror, DIRECT links with the war on terror.

It will NOT be a third war, it will not a 4th separate war, but just another part of the 1 war we are fighting, the war on terror.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Saddam MURDERED an Al Quaeda Lieutenant of Osamam Bin Ladens, who came to Iraq for medical treatment.

HE MET with Saddam, and then when he would not do what Saddam wanted him to do, mainly put his cell under Saddams DIRECT control, Saddam ad him murdered.


Where did you read this? I would like to read this story.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

BTW, most of your thoughts are COMPLETELY politically impossible, and will never happen.

They are great dreams, but the fact is, NONE of them are realistic.

Remember, this is the REAL world, not some dreamland.

Then again, you do seem to be in Dreamland a LOT lately, that Hate Bush thing has really got you going, and I am beginning to think it is taking you where you really don't want to go.

There was a time when the world we live in today, was considered a dreamland. How do you suppose we got here? It certainly wasn't from people with your attitude about the status quo.

You just go on living in the real world, while people like street and myself continue to push ourselves and our ideas towards a better tomorrow.

We each have our roles to play in shaping our society and each of them is as necessary as the next. So thanks Jag, for keeping things working "the way they do" so others are free to pursue the way things could and should be.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

Saddam MURDERED an Al Quaeda Lieutenant of Osamam Bin Ladens, who came to Iraq for medical treatment.


So Saddam murdering a top Al Qaeda official is symbolic of complicity? Wow, that has got to be the hallmark of cooperation. I didnt know that Al Qaeda considered the murder of one of it's own by Saddam to be such a honor. I can see it now...

"To prove my respect for you and your organization and as a show of my support, I will murder one of your men"

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds like Saddam didn't care for Al Qaeda's ideas and plans at all, hmmmm.

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I know I am late (as usual) but Street I need to ask you. Was you attack on Jaguar staged to avoid the question as to whether or not you are the author of your thread? It seems familiar to me.....

Kisses!

Oh BTW I am not a Bush supporter, Saddam was linked. We need to get Osama and the rest of his buddies, and then get the heck outta there!

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Here is an example of what happens when a terrorist said no to Saddam Housien.

This is just one example, there are others, such as the one above, I will continue looking for the information regarding the Al Quaeda LT.

Again, this is just one example.

Saddam had MANY ties to Al Quaeda, and MANY other ties to other terrorist groups.

These ties and WMD's made Saddam a REAL threat to our security.

Saddam was trying to figure out a way to attack us and if he had NOT been taken out, if he had been allowed to continue what he was doing, if the sanctions had been lifted, as the UN had wanted to do.

He would have started up his WMD programs again, most likely, nearing 100% certainty, given a WMD to a terrorist group to use against here in the US.

Iraq is indeed part of the war on terror, although there were MANY other reasons to go after the sicko.

This is a tough war, this is going to be a long war, but we are going to win it, as our military has just proven yesterday.

Allawi is SICK of the terrorists, and will no longer act with Diplomacy when it comes to them.

If they are hiding, we will find them, when we find them and they fight, they will die.

Pakistan is now doing an EXELLENT job of taking the war to the terrorists in the mountain strongholds, and other countries are getting serious about terrorism as well.

The whole world is against the terrorists, accept for a few rogue nations that still support them, and they will be taken out of the equation fairly soon, either through internal strife, Iran and North Korea, through diplomacy, Syria, Libya, or through military force, Iraq, Gaza Strip and the Palestinians.

The war on terror is accelerating, and the terrorists are dying.

Which is just as it should be.

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quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

BTW, most of your thoughts are COMPLETELY politically impossible, and will never happen.

They are great dreams, but the fact is, NONE of them are realistic.

Remember, this is the REAL world, not some dreamland.

Then again, you do seem to be in Dreamland a LOT lately, that Hate Bush thing has really got you going, and I am beginning to think it is taking you where you really don't want to go.

There was a time when the world we live in today, was considered a dreamland. How do you suppose we got here? It certainly wasn't from people with your attitude about the status quo.

You just go on living in the real world, while people like street and myself continue to push ourselves and our ideas towards a better tomorrow.

We each have our roles to play in shaping our society and each of them is as necessary as the next. So thanks Jag, for keeping things working "the way they do" so others are free to pursue the way things could and should be.


I am only going to say this once Grizzle, so listen carefully.

The government as it is now, is too entrenched, it is too status Quo, it is too powerful to get rid of via little dreams such as the above.

It will not happen via elections, because as soon as someone with the cahunas to take on the system is elected, they are swallowed up by it, such as Ron Paul of Texas, he is a small voice in a HUGE din.

The only way that the United States Federal government will be changed wil be through armed revolution and overthrow.

That is the ONLY way that ANY of the above will EVER be implemented.

Therefore, it is impossible, because armed revolt will not and cannot work.

The libertarian party is a joke, the constitutionalist party is a joke, the Republican party and the Democrat Party are too entrenched, the changes you are dreaming about will be and are impossible to implement.

There is only 1 way, and that ain't gonna happen, there are too many sheeple in this society, there are too many people that are quite happy with the status quo. It would be literally IMPOSSIBLE to overthrow the federal government and reinstate the constitution, or make the changes that you spout.

The only way to ever make it happen is let it fall apart from it's own weight, which it will, probably within our lifetimes, if you want to know the truth.

In the meantime, I will suport what I believe is right, such as the war on terror, take the lesser of 2 evils, which are the Republicans and President Bush, and wait for the collapse that I know will occur.

History tells me a great many things, and the fall of Rome tells me far more about what is happening here, then the present does.

The hidden signals etc are there, and as you scream in frustration, and bounce off the brick wall that is the federal government, many of us just wait for the inevitable, because we are realists.

This is the real world, not a dreamland.

The cancer is too deep, either you ride it out, or you end up fighting and wasting your energy on something that will not happen, mainly changing the system through the system.

Because it ain't gonna happen.

The cancer is too deep, and that cancer is going to eat the federal government, and it will collapse of it's own weight. It is just a matter of time.

The divide in this country is HUGE, you have the red states, and the blue states, the country is divided, just as it was in Rome.

The country is in debt up to it's ears, and the federal government continues to give handouts.

The sheeple are voting themselves largess from the public treasury, It is the only way to control them. The federal government has created a monster, and that monster will eat them.

It is just a matter of time, anger and bouncing off the wall, will not help, all it does is waste your energy, because your voice and your fight against such a juggernaut will not stop it. It can only stop itself, and it will. Again, it is just a matter of time.

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quote:

I know I am late (as usual) but Street I need to ask you. Was you attack on Jaguar staged to avoid the question as to whether or not you are the author of your thread? It seems familiar to me.....


good god!!! if you would follow all the post where jag and i discuss anything, you would be aware of the reality of things.....

good luck with your lives people..sheeesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ 10-02-2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Cmdr Chavik ]

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Well Jag, you might be surprised to find I agree with a lot of what you said. Whether it takes revolution or the governments self-destruction, change is inevitable. But one thing is for sure, it will never happen without people to challenge the current political environment. So why beat on folks that espouse ideas of change just because you consider it impossible to accomplish? That attitude is defeatist and only exacerbates the problem.

I find it even more distrubing that you so strongly support an administration that is doing the very things that further limit the will of the people and are responsible for perpetuating the environment you say is so insurmountable. Based on your response, you shouldn't be allying yourself with any governmental body, why you choose one that is in direct contrast to your own statements is beyond me.

Despite all of the problems with our government, it still belongs to the people and come election day, the loudest and strongest message we can send to our government is to vote Bush out. Not that it will necessarily change a damn thing, but it will prove that heart of democracy is still beating no matter how weakly.

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Guest Shingen

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

Despite all of the problems with our government, it still belongs to the people and come election day, the loudest and strongest message we can send to our government is to vote Bush out. Not that it will necessarily change a damn thing, but it will prove that heart of democracy is still beating no matter how weakly.

Given the lesser of two evils, and also, dealing with a devil that you know is much better than dealing with one you don't know, I sincerely hope that Senator Kerry never takes control of this country!

He's far too leftist, and it seems, more than willing to turn control of America over to a Foreign Body (The U.N.), that I think I'd rather have a Power-mongering Capitalist in office than a Power-mongering Communist.

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Well,, hate to tell you this, but Kerry has a snowballs chance in Hell.

He is NOT going to win, the Democrats can't let it happen. Neither can the Republicans.

The only way that Kerry is gonna get elected is if something MAJOR happensm and it had better be good.

Kerry is in DEEP trouble, Clinton, Hillary is running in 2008, and she is NOT going to wait, therefore Kerry cannot be allowed to win.

Bush will win his 2nd term, and then Clinton and some unknown republican will go for the Whitehouse in 2008.

Kiss Kerry goodbye, because his political career has exactly one month left to it.

Next time you see him, he will be screaming nonsense to crowds like Gore is. Gore has lost his fricking mind, the man has gone absolutely NUTS!!

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Kerry is willing to turn over control of this country to FOREIGN INTERESTS? WHAT KERRY HAS SAID ALL ALONG IS THAT AMERICA MUST BE CONSCIOUS OF THE FACT THAT THE WORLD IS WATCHING. We tout ourselves as the leaders of the free world. We say that we are acting from a position of compassion and morality even when we have to use force to protect our way of life. All Kerry is saying is that he would act within that MORAL COMPASS so that the world did not color us as corrupt as those we would seek to destroy.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... the same people that color Kerry as a patsy for the UN are saying that the CHINESE OF ALL PEOPLE need to assist us in negotiations with North Korea. HELLO!? I can't think of one nation INCLUDING SADDAM HUSSEIN'S IRAQ that would relish seeing us destroyed more than CHINA. Talk about turning the wellbeing of this country over to an enemy. They sell guns and weapons to our enemies but hey what the hell, come on and sit down at this table and negotiate with us in our best interests. Good Lord.

Hussein is gone for several reasons but if I was a betting man the major thing that got him into the old frying pan was trading his oil in Euros. Man that pissed off George's buddies and also threw a wrench in the monopoly the dollar holds over oil. You wanna know why the French and the Germans are pissed... that's why. Europe wants to COMPETE with us by uniting their currencies and then we play dirty pool like this. I really wish some of you would look a little deeper than Fox News.

Peace

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quote:

Originally posted by Shingen:

Given the lesser of two evils, and also, dealing with a devil that you know is much better than dealing with one you
don't
know, I sincerely hope that Senator Kerry never takes control of this country!

He's
far too leftist
, and it seems, more than willing to turn control of America over to a Foreign Body (The U.N.), that I think I'd rather have a Power-mongering Capitalist in office than a Power-mongering Communist.

I'm so sick of hearing the ridiculous conjecture thrown about by the republican party about how Kerry is a commie in a blue suit that would sell out his country. It's pure BS and you guys know it. It shows nothing more than a lack of intellectual honesty.

I honestly don't like Kerry much either, but I cannot, and will not, support the policies of the current administration. I am not better off than I was four years ago. Our country is not better off than it was four years ago. And the world is not a better place than it was four years ago.

It makes me sick to think that the Bush administration squandered all of the good will the world held towards us after 9/11. That they squandered a government surplus, have failed to truly revive the economy and have caused the US to lose credibility worldwide.

Wonder why GW doesn't pursue more diplomacy? It's not because it's his style or even necessarily his belief, it's because the rest of the world refuses to work with him. He's like the angry bully on the playground that the other kid's parents warn them to stay away from.

No thanks, I'll take my chances with Kerry, he couldn't possibly do any worse than what we've had for the past four years.

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Grizzle,

You have NOT been paying attention.

The economy is MUCH better then it was, the uneployment rate is actually lower then when Clinton was in office, New housing starts are still up, and interest rates are starting to go up again, Why? Because the Fed has decided that the economy is going VERY well on it's own and does not need really low interest rates to keep going.

Look at the signs, instead of your partisn BS.

Bush has stimulated the economy, and has accomplished things that haven't been accomplished since Reagan was in office.

Open your eyes child, the economy is booming, whether it helps you personally or not.

THe president is NOT responsible for your happiness and well being, YOU are, he has given you the opportunity and the climate to do it if you are willing. Question is, do you have the motication it takes to be successful.

I work for myself, I started less then 6 months ago, because I got tired of working for eveyone else. I am starting to really get things moving, and it is because the economy is going so well.

Every time someone tries to sell a house, they call me first, I go in, tell them what they need to do, help them do it, make money while I am at it of course, and then they make evern MORE money when they sell their house.

We all win, if you are capable, there is NO excuse for you NOT to be doing better then you were 4 years ago. NONE....

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That's just the point the economy is totally being supported by the real estate sector. Why? Because all other investment options SUCK. You can't do the safe thing and invest in CDs and the like because interest rates blow. The stock market is crap because you never know when the shoe is going to drop on a company you invested in (bogus P&L statements). Property has swelled in price because of low rates, you can afford to get a higher loan so sellers are taking advantage and selling their property for higher prices. It has been a sellers market in virtually all areas of the country because people are investing in real estate. Good for you with the business Jaguar but other sectors of the economy are suffering and the jobs that Bush lost versus the ones he is adding are apples to oranges.

I'm not thrilled with Kerry either, hell I'm a Republican but as Grizzle so aptly said, I cannot support this guy's WHACKO policies either. Looks like the polls are starting to turn too... no wonder why Rush Limbaugh was screaming like a shrew Friday.

As for your comments Jaguar, it is typical that you would call someone a "child" because they don't see things your way. Frankly, I think it's you that is the child. Most people voting for Bush want him to do things differently in the next term... this makes them fools. Why? Because a fool is someone that does the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. I voted for Bush once, that was enough.

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Takvah,

YOu haven't been paying attention either, the stock market is booming, ALL of my stocks have come back from the brink after 911, and I am not worried about them in the least.

Investments in the stock market is one of the best investments going, besides real estate, but that is normal.

You chicken littles are something else, the electronics industry, the last one to recover from a recession is coming back with a vengeance, so to hear you guys yell and scream that the sky is falling is just hilarious.

I was in the electronics industry for over 15 years, I went through hell, which is why I got out of it and into Real estate instead.

The electronics industry is coming back, which tells me everything that I need to know.

The electronics industry is the last one to go into recession and the last one to come out of it.

The recession is over, the economy is booming, and it is because of Bush.

The tax income of the federal government is going to be higher next year then it was during Clintons last years. The deficit is going to go down if Congress can control itself enough.

You guys are just a trip and a 1/2, Reagan's economy worked, trickle down and tax cuts ALWAYS work, Clinton was the one that tried the old raise taxes bit, and he destroyed the economy he inherited in the process. Bush has saved it with the ONLY known tried and true solution, and it is indeed solving it.

Chicken Littles, the whole lot of you, hilarious, absolutely hilarious.

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Jag,

I take full responsibility for taking care of myself and don't expect help from anyone. I quit a very well paying job over a year ago, worked as a self employed software developer for a while and have just recently started working for another company. I haven't been hit nearly as hard as some, so I'm not complaining.

When I began to look for corporate employment and contacted folks in my network, NO ONE was hiring, in fact they were still laying people off as recently as a week ago.

I know many, many people who have been hit and are still suffering from the fallout of a mismanaged economy. You can throw all the numbers out that you'd like to prove the economy is doing well, but it doesn't change the reality on the ground for those that still suffer.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, the unemployment figure is bogus. How many millions of americans are out of work but not counted in that number since their unemployment benefits have expired? I never have and never will use that number as a gauge. Instead I look to the people I know and the quality of work available as the most important indicator.

Sure, the economy is doing well for some but on a level that the average american worker does not see or is even able to participate in. Investment bankers, real estate firms and corporations are benefitting from the economy right now, the latter mainly because they've cut their workforce and continue to do so. Sorry, but four years ago I could have had my choice of premium jobs and so could many others, that is not the case today.

I know you are passionate in your beliefs and I find that an admirable quality in most people, but when you funnel that passion into condescension (chicken littles) and insults (I am not a child), you merely come off as an irate, frustrated individual unable to engage in civil discourse. It's one thing to believe you are sublime but it's something entirely different to actually be able to pull it off.

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Just make sure you sell your stock before November 2. I'm predicting another Bush victory and another stock market plunge to the bottom.

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Guest Shingen

quote:

Originally posted by El Che:

Just make sure you sell your stock before November 2. I'm predicting another Bush victory and another stock market plunge to the bottom.

No offense, but you obviously have no clue how the Stock Market works.

When the bottom falls is the best time to buy!

Eventually, the market will stabilize and you can unload for a profit!

It's been that way since the 17th century. Where have you been?

Your main investments you need to hold on to! Don't sell your IBM, Walmart, Intel, or Microsoft unless you have enough shares to stay in and still make a profit.

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quote:

Originally posted by Shingen:

quote:

Originally posted by El Che:

Just make sure you sell your stock before November 2. I'm predicting another Bush victory and another stock market plunge to the bottom.

No offense, but you obviously have no clue how the Stock Market works.


Shingen, he's a Bush Hater. Who think's that once Bush get's re-elected the stock market will crash back into the depression.. which, by the way, is IMPOSSIBLE

But, then again, I'm going by what I've read on this board to formulate my opinion

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Actually, the stockmarket goes UP whenever Bush is up in the polls, and goes DOWN whenever Kerry is up in the polls.

So, the exact opposite is actually true.

If the stock market crashes because someone wins the election, it will because Kerry wins the election.

BUT, it won't crash, it will drop a few hundred points if Kerry wins, and go up a few hundred points if Bush wins.

Woopdeedoo

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