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Can anyone in the military explain to me...

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What this circus is about?

The man joins the army as a volunteer... he deploys overseas to a warzone, returns to the US after completing his deployment... submits conscientious objector thingy... it gets denied. He deserts and runs for canada.. canada refuses to allow him to stay.

Please explain why someone who volunteers cannot change his mind... and why the army has the right to deny the CO and jail him or court martial him if he refuses to follow orders he considers illegal or immoral?

I dont understand why hes considered a criminal for running away after he was told 'NO' to his Cobjector thing and he his only options (far as I know) were to either go to jail or be forced to do the very thing he was objecting to.

Makes no sense to me.

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Give me a link to an article about it and I will do my best, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Haven't heard a thing.

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I don't get it, they should have discharged him.

I won't say more then that, because I totally disagree with his stand.

As far as I am concerned the Army shouldn't want to touch this with a 10 foot pole. Give him a less then honorable and let it be.

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yeah thats what i figured. desertion being cause for jail time is something i dont understand. revoke his citizenship and ban him from ever entering the US and territories and that should be that.

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In a time of war, he could be shot. No commanding officer wants to be in a situation where his men pay a lesser penalty for "departing the fix" than for staying to face the enemy.

The military mentality changes a little with each generation. But it wouldn't be out of the norm for a board to decline his application, considering the circumstances.

Usually, for someone to receive such a waiver, he/she needs to be in a position of "no gain." Meaning, the board can be reasonably certain his interests are solely religious and not primarily driven by concern for personal safety.

For example, a fighter pilot will likely be granted the waiver if, in peacetime, he is later assigned to bombers and given "failsafe" duties ... which causes him to reevaluate his ability to do his job should war break out. But, if he waits until war has already started to make application ... yeah, right. Not likely.

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I believe you are close to the mark on this situation Marvin.

Any veteran can tell you that even after your enlistment is up, the military owns you for a total of 8 years. Even if all you did was sign up for 2. You will have several tours of duty inside your enlistment. I believe the period after your enlistment is referred to as IRR (Inactive Ready Reserve). By the description I read, I believe he finished a tour of duty, but not his enlistment.

As for the consciencious objector part, I believe many commanders have the option to allow that after the soldier has already passed Boot Camp. I do believe it is up to the commander to allow or disallow. The commander will never allow such a thing if it happens after a conflict occurs. The soldier is informed and must choose before he is sent into a conflict zone. Not to mention, there is a specific clause in the paperwork, when you sign up for military service that talks about being a consciencious objector and to NOT enlist.

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Warning Dangerous Rant Ahead, Might be offensive to some! Stop reading here if you are easily offended!!

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As I read and understand it, this is what I see: He signed up as a COMBAT soldier(airborne). He was assigned to Fort Bragg, where there are 98% combat soldiers and 2% support. He was not a Consciencious Objector at the time and had no problems with the thought of killing someone for his country. That is an Airborne Soldier's job description.

He could have signed up for another job - clerk, librarian, cook, communication, truck driver, etc... if he really was a conscientious objector.

After the war in Iraq began, he saw other soldiers taking the heat, soldiers and civilians dying, possibly lost a friend, and panicked. He allowed his family to talk him into something stupid and went AWOL on his chosen duties that he had previously had no problem with. He broke his sworn oath to the military, the U.S.A., and his word of honor.

He is a coward, plain and simple. He wasn't drafted, He VOLUNTEERED knowing what he was getting himself into.

At minimum, I believe he should get a Dishonorable discharge and revokation of all veteran and federal benefits.

I spent my time in the military and did my tour in the Saudi area. Nasty place to be as an American! I was married. I didn't run home to momma when the bullets started flying. I really wanted to. I lost some friends to combat and terrorist actions, some in quite gruesome ways. I stuck out my entire enlistment and hated every moment.

Didn't anyone ever wonder why the pants for the Saudi Arabian area are brown?? I don't believe it has anything to do with the desert.

He should turn himself in and finish out his enlistment. He should do it, even if it means he spends time in prison. He gave his sworn oath and word of honor. Obviously, he has no honor and can't keep his word.

I humbly ask forgiveness, if I have offended anyone with my strong opinion. I also ask you to remember that a measure of a man is not what he does when things are going well, but what he does when the stuff hits the fan.

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It's funny how it has become ever so convenient for the military to draft current enlistees beyond their TOS, especially when you consider that there have been Generals in the pentagon who have retired during a time of war. One of them being the guy in charge of procuring protective armor and vests. Go figure.

What makes them any better than the grunts?

As for this kid from South Dakota;

So the guy got some religion and decided he doesn't want to kill people for a corrupt government. Big deal! Discharge him! No military benefits (and I use that term very loosely)plain and simple,

No hoo haa, no fanfare. Done, over with and forgotten. But noooo, The brass turn him into a grass roots activist. Better yet, put me in a fox hole with him and I'll shoot him in the back if he runs when the fecal matter hits the rotational cooling device. Again, problem solved.

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quote:

Originally posted by Seedog:

He gave his sworn oath and word of honor. Obviously, he has no honor and can't keep his word.


Marvin, correct me if I'm wrong, I feel that is the crux of the matter. Very few oaths are held to a very high standard anymore but cross those few and whoo hoo watch out.

Marriage: not so much anymore but still tough.

Jury Duty

Witness at a trial

Military service

I have seen only two or three articles surface for a bit about such matters. Extrapolate that to a total percentage of personnel and it still doesn't seem like it would be very many. Still there is the "make an example of him" thing. Prosecute the few and others who have similiar thoughts may rethink things.

I feel Jag is being more than fair minded this time.

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To repeat that which is probably most important:

No commanding officer wants to be in a situation where his men pay a lesser penalty for "departing the fix" than for staying to face the enemy.

A dishonorable discharge might sound like a terrible thing, sitting here, reading the forum. But it starts to look better and better when the bullets start flying ... and you come face-to-face with the very possible alternative.

Consequently, to keep a soldier from abandoning his comrades under fire, the alternative must be equally displeasing. Otherwise, a commander is likely to find that a few of his men/women could care less about a signed contract. Especially when the Pentagon has also been pushing traditional military contractual obligations beyond the normal limits.

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Guest

"Meaning, the board can be reasonably certain his interests are solely religious and not primarily driven by concern for personal safety."

And since when is conscientious objector have to do anything with religion?

What if im agnostic or atheist and I signed up for the military as a paratrooper BECAUSE they got better college benefits (and please, dont deny that a healthy bulk of the army enlists because of this) than signing up to be a cook... and I DO serve one tour and during that tour I decide that what im doing is illegal or immoral. The brass denies my CO because I say that if attacked id fight back, not be all goody-goody and turn the other cheek.

The article on this guy says that he was denied CO because he said he wouldnt turn the other cheek if attacked.. that reeks of the army using religion as the sole 'merit' for CO status.

The thing is, he changed his mind AFTER he enlisted. Enlisting as a volunteer is like buying an online MMPORG ... you dont know how it is until you actually buy the damn thing and try it. Bad thing is, once you enlist in the army you literally become a slave to the army. As someone above said, they OWN you. You cant leave without it seriously screwing your life and if you decide not to leave to not screw your life you can find yourself just as screwed while serving your enlistment & beyond it (reservist).

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Well said TAC,

It also begs the question;

"Why should the line guys want to honor a contract when the brass doesn't?"

Combat boot on the other foot so to speak.

The grunts have no legal recourse when their TOS contract is broken by the Pentagon and they are literally held as paid slaves beyond the TOS because it's convenient for the military.

It's a two edged sword and it cuts both ways. But the poor grunts are given the dull edged weapons thanks to congress.

Every swinging **** in the command chain from the CiC on down has been double dealing the enlisted personnel all through this conflict.

If they want to sing Duty and honor they should start with themselves first.

It's a HMMT (pronounced Himmett) load of Bovine Scatterings in my book.

Especially when I consider that the Chief Mo Fo in charge avoided combat duty himself and couldn't even be bothered to make it to his MUTA's

I have a message for him; "eff you! and the limo you rode in on"

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