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Soback

Let's face facts, Europe's being run by cowards

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http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/commo...5E28737,00.html

"THE writer Henryk Broder recently issued a withering indictment: Europe, your family name is appeasement. That phrase resonates because it is so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as allies Britain and France negotiated and hesitated too long before they realised that Adolf Hitler needed to be fought and defeated, because he could not be bound by toothless agreements.

Later, appeasement legitimised and stabilised communism in the Soviet Union, then in East Germany, then throughout the rest of Eastern Europe, where for several decades inhuman, repressive and murderous governments were glorified.

Appeasement similarly crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Bosnia and Kosovo. Indeed, even though we had absolute proof of continuing mass murder there, we Europeans debated and debated, and then debated still more. We were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, to do our work for us."

"Similarly, it generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore the almost 500,000 victims of Saddam Hussein's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace movement, to harangue George W. Bush as a warmonger.

This hypocrisy continues even as it is discovered that some of the loudest critics of US action in Iraq made illicit billions - indeed, tens of billions - of dollars in the corrupt UN oil-for-food program.

Today we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement. How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in The Netherlands, Britain and elsewhere in Europe? By suggesting - wait for it - that the proper response to such barbarism is to initiate a Muslim holiday in Germany.

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of Germany's Government - and, if polls are to be believed, the German people -- actually believe that creating an official state Muslim holiday will somehow spare us from the wrath of fanatical Islamists.

One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain on his return from Munich, waving that laughable treaty signed by Hitler, and declaring the advent of peace in our time. "

"What atrocity must occur before the European public and its political leadership understands what is really happening in the world? There is a sort of crusade under way; an especially perfidious campaign consisting of systematic attacks by Islamists, focused on civilians, that is directed against our free, open Western societies, and that is intent on their utter destruction. "

"Only two recent US presidents have had the courage needed to shun appeasement: Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. The US's critics may quibble over the details, but in our hearts we Europeans know the truth, because we saw it first hand.

Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of Europe from almost 50 years of terror and slavery. And Bush, acting out of moral conviction and supported only by the social democrat Tony Blair, recognised the danger in today's Islamist war against democracy.

In the meantime, Europe sits back in the multicultural corner with its usual blithe self-confidence.

Instead of defending liberal values and acting as an attractive centre of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, the US and China, it does nothing. On the contrary, we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to the supposedly arrogant Americans, as world champions of tolerance, which even Germany Interior Minister Otto Schily justifiably criticises."

"For his policy of confronting Islamic terrorism head-on, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the US economy. But he does this because, unlike most of Europe, he realises that what is at stake is literally everything that really matters to free people.

While we criticise the capitalistic robber barons of the US because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our welfare states. "Stay out of it. It could get expensive," we cry.

AND THIS ONE, LOL

So, instead of acting to defend our civilisation, we prefer to discuss reducing our 35-hour work week or improving our dental coverage, or extending our four weeks of annual paid holiday. Or perhaps we listen to television pastors preach about the need to reach out to terrorists, to understand and forgive.

These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewellery when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbour's house. Appeasement? That is just the start of it. Europe, thy name is Cowardice. "

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Guest Remo Williams

35 hour work week he has to be kidding is this true? If I work under 60 hours in a week I've been slacking.

The writer just pointed out what I've said all along. I hope they can start contributing sooner rather than later eventually itÔÇÖs going to be in their back yards as well its already started in England.

I know the next time genocides being committed in Europe I will not support sending troops unless European manpower and equipment makes up the majority of the force I know dream on.

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Out of respect for my European friends and compadres here @ 3000AD, I will refrain from commenting.

I know how it feels when someone verbally attacks the U.S. An almost uncontrollable urge to vehemently defend her honor seems to take me over.

The article DOES speak for itself, anyway.

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

Out of respect for my European friends and compadres here @ 3000AD, I will refrain from commenting.

I know how it feels when someone verbally attacks the U.S. An almost uncontrollable urge to vehemently defend her honor seems to take me over.

The article DOES speak for itself, anyway.

Honorable indeed, to bad they don't follow your example. You can put money on them continuing to bash the US every chance they see while ignoring their own short comings unfortunately as the author pointed out.

However you're correct we should put and end to this tit-for-tat it helps no one.

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I took one look at this thread subject, shrugged. And went back to shaving the hair on my back with a spoon tied to a garden broom.

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quote:

Posted By SC

I took one look at this thread subject, shrugged. And went back to shaving the hair on my back with a spoon tied to a garden broom.

TOO MUCH INFORMATION!!!

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Guest Grayfox

*choke*

last time i read anything while eating... my death would of been on your concience SC

quote:

four weeks of annual paid holiday.

wow must be nice to work 35 hrs a week and still get a month vacation.

as much as i would love to give back even a minute amount of the bashing we Americans recieve, prez is right and we shall take the high road.

bash away at us... will just prove OUR point

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

I took one look at this thread subject, shrugged. And went back to shaving the hair on my back with a spoon tied to a garden broom.

Heh, yeah this one was a head shaker if the words "being run" were not mentioned in the subject it would have been gone. Oh and that has to hurt. (shudders)

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Well,some points in this article(the 1 in the australian news) are quite valid,others not.For example I don't consider it cowardly if the majority of the european states doesn't want to wage war.As we have already had enough war.

quote:

Europe still hasn't learned. Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word equidistance, often seems to countenance suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

I'd rather consider the EU behavior cautios,not cowardly.As it is tried not to exclude specific groups.

quote:

By suggesting - wait for it - that the proper response to such barbarism is to initiate a Muslim holiday in Germany.

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of Germany's Government - and, if polls are to be believed, the German people -- actually believe that creating an official state Muslim holiday will somehow spare us from the wrath of fanatical Islamists.

This is hilarios.The muslim holiday proposal was made at the 15. of November 2004 by H.C Stroebele,an politician of the german green party(an liberal,conservationist party).This propsal lasted for,uhm, 1 day.Then it wasn't a topic any more.

Mathias Doepfner should know that.Because he,as the chief executive of German media group Axel Springer,was responsible for the outrage against the muslim holiday,as this(the people's outrage) was encouraged by the rather right-wing popular/populistic *newspaper* "Bild",which is made by Axel Springer.Thus I'm clueless why M.Doepfner,as the chief executive,is making stuff up.

Furthermore,the topics title is quite innapropiate.The facts are missing.

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quote:


Originally posted by Prez:

quote:

Posted By SC

I took one look at this thread subject, shrugged. And went back to shaving the hair on my back with a spoon tied to a garden broom.


TOO MUCH INFORMATION!!!


LOL!!

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quote:

Originally posted by paranide:

Furthermore,the topics title is quite innapropiate.The facts are missing.

The topics title is the title of an article, and since this topic is about that article, therefore the title is VERY appropriate for this thread, anything else would be missguiding.

As far as you claiming that the facts are missing, quote me where the author makes at least one lie. Even that muslim holiday that was proposed, the fact is, IT WAS PROPOSED. So even where the facts are not present, there's nothing to back up with those facts, what the author is claiming is simple and well known truths. Do you need facts that WWII happened and that Europe didn't stop Hitler when he started violating treaties and conditions imposed on him? Here's what I will do, if you really need the facts, quote me something from that article and I will FIND the facts for you, to back up the author on whatever you quote. However, think first Paranide and don't dig yourself a hole.

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quote:

The topics title is the title of an article, and since this topic is about that article, therefore the title is VERY appropriate for this thread, anything else would be missguiding.

Sorry about that.I was in fact refering to the article in the link you provided,not to this thread's name.But I ran out of vocabulary thus I just typed "topic"hoping it wouldn't be misunderstood

About my sentence about the facts:There are facts,but IMO they don't justify to think about Europe being run as cowards--->but I know that this is my subjective view.I'd better thought twice before typing the sentence.

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

There are facts,but IMO they don't justify to think about Europe being run as cowards--->but I know that this is my subjective view.I'd better thought twice before typing the sentence.


I wouldn't even bother its just an opinion same as the articles written about the USA.

What about that 35 hour work week though how does that work?

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quote:

What about that 35 hour work week though how does that work?

(Related to Germany)Well,that was the point I also was wondering about.Because accordingly to this source

(as this is in german i'll translate roughly)

the Germans have worked more in 2004 than 2003.According to the Statistische Bundesamt(an institute of the german state),men in the west of germany have worked 40,3 hours per week,men in the east of germany have worked 40,1 hours per week.

This

quote:

we prefer to discuss reducing our 35-hour .

was a subject in September 2003 when the Trade Union IG Metall tried to reduce the weekly working time to 35 hours in the eastern countries of germany(as they thought then there would be created more employment places-->as in the east in some places there are unemployment rates of 25 % and more).

Edit:Sorry,didn't see nomad's post,as I had the website opened for 15 minutes without refreshing.

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If you work 40 hours a week, lets say earning $10 an hour, to make things simple. That makes it $400 a week. If you reduce the hours to mandatory 35, that means you start making $350. Now that artificially creates more jobs, but due to my paycheck just having been cut from $1600 to $1400, or by 13%, that's a lot. Doesn't that push some people into poverty, or basically by emposing that restriction on how much they can work, you are imposing a restriction on how much they can make. Making them poor not by choice but forcing that upon them. Also how do you handle the fact that one employee is really good at his job, but because his hours a mandatorily cut, you as a businessman HAVE to hire another employee that might even cost you money because his performance is sub-par. Is that the problems that this 35 hour week has created? I am not being sarcastic Nomad, I am asking because I do not know, maybe you get around the issue of workers making less in 35 hours by forcing the employee to pay them more per hour, but then that would just force the price of whatever they are producing UP, so that makes little sence too.

The only real way to go is capitalism. You let the market dectate the employment the wages, the costs. Only then do you get the REAL value for your work, the hours, and by the way, prices of goods. Those who don't offer anything of value, get nothing of value in return and therefore it's a huge burden lifted off of the shoulders of those that have had it been unfairly foced in the first place. Didn't anyone learn anything from the fall of Rome, or at least the Soviet Union should still be fresh in peoples minds.

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I have read your entire post Nomad. Having health and retirement benefits doesn not make you rich, and does not mean you are not poor, on the contrary it seems that those same retirement and health benefits actually DO make them poor because they have to provide for EVERYONE at the cost of their own, taking what you earn and spreading it around. Having job security at the cost of millions of others not being able to get ahead and accomplish their dreams is a tremendous price, it's slavery and subjugation of those millions at the cost of security for others. I shudder to think of myself in those circumstances, China has the highest suicide rate in the whole world, they are also the most socialistic government in the whole world. Their suicide is highest for people between the ages of 20 and 35. When a person discovers that he can not live his life for his own purposes and in pursuit of his own happiness, and being powerless to change that, he also discovers that his life is therefore worthless to himself. Those who can live under those conditins have never discovered the freedom of their mind, or the value of their life.

and THIS

"In Europe, things may be discussed for too long because we want to take even the smallest variable into account before taking any decision. This may lead that when the decision is finally taken, so much time has elapsed that the analyzed situation is now obsolete and the whole process has to start all over again..."

Nomad, if that is how you run a country, how can you tell me that EU will not fail, and the contries that comprise it will not collapse? It is simply un-real. It means that NOTHING gets done, or the things that do get done weren't worth doing in the first place.

I am horrified to see people in US who actually support and want to bring the same model of government and business into US, and I will NOT give up my freedoms, the only way you can take them from me is by force, and I will defend them till my last breath, and after that last breath, what you will have is nobody to take that freedom from.

So in light of all this, Reason stands to differ that when you turn your head away from this monstorcity, and say that on one hand it's bad, on the other it's good, the bad being enslavement of millions the good being millions sustaining off of those slaves, because that is what it really is, by agreeing or just spreading your hands with silent gesture of "what can I do", then it is simple, Europe IS being run by cowards.

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quote:

Having health and retirement benefits doesn not make you rich, and does not mean you are not poor, on the contrary it seems that those same retirement and health benefits actually DO make them poor because they have to provide for EVERYONE at the cost of their own, taking what you earn and spreading it around.

Well said. The pure socialist model.

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Quote:

Having health and retirement benefits doesnÔÇÖt not make you rich, and does not mean you are not poor, on the contrary it seems that those same retirement and health benefits actually DO make them poor because they have to provide for EVERYONE at the cost of their own, taking what you earn and spreading it around. Having job security at the cost of millions of others not being able to get ahead and accomplish their dreams is a tremendous price, it's slavery and subjugation of those millions at the cost of security for others. I shudder to think of myself in those circumstances, China has the highest suicide rate in the whole world, they are also the most socialistic government in the whole world. Their suicide is highest for people between the ages of 20 and 35. When a person discovers that he can not live his life for his own purposes and in pursuit of his own happiness, and being powerless to change that, he also discovers that his life is therefore worthless to himself. Those who can live under those conditions have never discovered the freedom of their mind, or the value of their life.

Soback Youre wrong ..

If you look at the HDI (human development t index ), you se that Norway is on the best country in the world. We have social democratic system, wealth fare, free health care, a standard work week is 37,5 hours, And a normal work day is 7,5 hours. Work more and you get paid 50% overtime. If you work on holydays, or on Sundays you get paid 100% overtime from the first hour. This system doesnt make us pore. It doesnt prevent us from living our lives in pursuit of our own happiness. It actually enables us to be free to pursue the things that makes us happy.

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quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

your absolute free market perspective doesen't take into account how far will G8 nations be affected by competition they can't absolutely cope with in terms of labor costs compared to China or India.

Labor cost isn't everything. I used to work for Home Depot as an Assistant Store Manager. The guy that basically guided Home Depot from it's inception, Bernie Marcus, decided to step down and let his long time partner (and bean counter), Arthur Blank, run the operation.

Arthur felt that us Home Depot Employees were getting paid too much and our raises were just too darned high, it didn't seem to matter that Home Depot was seeing double digit growth for 25 straight quarters, so he implemented his plan. From that point forward, they would pretty much frown upon ANY employee getting more than 25 cents a year. This was almost 10 yrs ago. Within 2 yrs, I had enough and I quit the company, and basically, his plan worked, Home Depot made so much money that over the next couple of years, the stock tripled in price.

But then something happened. People started to realize that this wasn't the Home Depot they had come to know and love, what happed to all the knowledgable salespeople (they mostly quit) Why was it so difficult to find someone to help (no one in thier right mind would work for those wages) and so began a steady decline that led the stock price back down in 2003 to where it was in 1998, no more double digit increases. How did this happen? They cut payroll didn't they. Paying someone next to nothing gives you employees that don't care about your company and where it is going. THIS is why the US competes with China Head on, and guess what, we STILL have super low levels of unemployment, much lower than the EU, along with better standards of living.

quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

MEDICAL:

On another very overlooked angle, if you compare systems who put great pressure on workers with other ones who are less purely performance-based (we may take again EU and US as example because they are so different), most statistics don't take into account the financial loss caused by stress. Here a few numbers:

- Work related stress is at the base of a $300 billion annual loss in the American Economy through sick leave, decrease of productivity, replacement of employees, work accidents, direct medical expenses, assurance expenses and compensations for the employees. These losses surpass by far the sum of the net profit of the first 500 corporations in US. In the EU, the annual loss corresponds to 20 billion €.

- Over 95% of the calls that the family doctors receive in US are caused by stress provoked illness and 80% of the illnesses that lead to a stay in a hospital had at their origin stress. In the EU, you may cut this numbers by half.


Surprise Surprise, you quote agency's who's job it is to make sure everyone is "Aware" of stress. Several of my family members are doctors, and they don't see anywhere near the numbers you're talking about. As for the European Rags you quoted, that's all different types of stresses, with Europe's High unemployment rates.

quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

EMPLOYMENT:

Effectively, setting an absolute maximum working hours/week spreads jobs among a greater number of employees.

Show me ONE country where this actually works! This is one of the reasons that it's so difficult to argue with you Socialists, because even when the evidence is STARING at you right in the face, you won't accept the facts. The US and Japan have some of the LONGEST work hours in the industrialized world and guess what, we also have the LOWEST unemployment rates, that have NOTHING to do with Government Jobs.

quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

....(that's why you don't really have very poor people in the EU like in other places, and this is were one of your assumptions is incorrect)

If you're trying to imply that the US has a lot of poor people, keep in mind that the MAJORITY of the "poor" in the US have an income that is equivalent to Middle Class status in most countries, including many countries that make up the EU. Here in Florida alone, 75% of those classified as "poor", own their own vehicles. In most countries you're not considered Poor if you own a car. The Poor people in the US arn't exacly starving or walking around in Rags.

quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

... Finally, in many EU member nations, labor laws penalize corporations who lay off employees if the corporation doesen't face financial problems or if the employee did not commit any fault.

And this is PRECICELY the reason why you end up with so much unemployment. Companies have to consider LONG and HARD, before Hiring another employee, that they might be "STUCK" with. I've hired literally HUNDREDS of people over the past 15 years, and I can tell you that if I KNEW that It would be nearly impossible to get rid of some of these guys, if things didn't work out, I would not have hired the Majority of them. I gave a LOT of these people a CHANCE, to prove themselves. And sometimes, it worked out, and others I had to let them go because they didn't deliver. This is something countries in the EU pretty much CAN'T do, becasue they're afraid of getting stuck with an unproductive employee.. [/QB]

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quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

Allow me to take some distance with your biaised views. I take great care to come with data compiled either by official US organizations like the CDC, or neutral like the ILO. Yet it seems that the opinion of the few doctors you presumably know counts more than entire national statistics. For the record, I also have doctors in my family, yet don't consider their partial view limitied in field and location to bear any national relevance. Well, it's a point of view, but don't pretend to be objective unless you want to fool yourself. Anyhow, rationality doesen't seem to be worth much as soon this implies the slighest clash with any aspect of your convictions. Funny how economic credos are sometimes viewed like a religion...

Concerning China and India, I'am afraid you don't see further than the tip of the iceberg.

In the mean time, let's quietly wait and watch because at least for the moment, not only don't I see anything falling apart here, but it also seems that people is as reluctant to embrace your professed way of life that they were with the USSR.

Something you fail to realize is that money can't buy everything, contrary to what you think. Maybe we should just look at mood tranquilizers, Prozac and sleeping drugs comparative consume. And that's the paradise you're advocating for ?

Not only are several Family members and friends Doctors, but also my wife's a pharmacist, so she sees the prescriptions that go out the door all the time. While yes, things like Prozac are huge sellers, the Mood altering drugs are not the majority of what people are buying. So it only stands to reason that if those categories of drugs are a small percentage of what's being sold, then how can that statistic of 85% be true?

One thing that I DO know about statistics, is that things are not always what they seem, and usually, you can shape statistics and polls into what you want them to be. Our President is a perfect example, according to all the Polls, he was supposed to lose. Yet, he was re-elected by a nice margin. What happened to those polls and statistics showing that he was going to lose?

And by the way, YOUR views are JUST as biased as mine, if not more so. I at least learn from History so I don't repeat the same mistakes again.

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quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

Well, the day you come with nationwide statistic data from either academic or government institutions, you will gain some credibility.

But I know perfectly why you can't support your opinions with epidemiologic and drug studies...

Let me give you a perfect example. Poverty

Most world organizations classify poverty the following way:

Those family's that earn less than half the median income are considered to be living below the poverty line.

They don't take things into consideration like affordability, the ability to provide yourself with food, housing, and so on.

Take Spain for instance. Real Estate in Spain and the US cost about the same. Quite possibly Rent rates are also about the same. Food costs about the same, fuel is probably higher, if Spain follows the EU Model of taxing fuel to death to pay for social programs.

Yet, even though the Cost of Living in Spain is comparable to the US, the average wage is about half the average wage in the US, so in other words, people who are considered Poor, by World Health Organization statistics, are actually Middle Class in Spain.

What's worse is that Spain's Government taxes the population at such high rates, that they are left with EVEN LESS.

It's for reasons like this, that I don't trust Statistics so much, because they can be manipulated to mean whatever you want them to.

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quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

Raw salary isn't sufficient to characterize the living standard of a population. To take the same example you used, Spain & the USA, you forgot to take in consideration that these low spanish wages compared to yours have already income taxes (yes, it's already taxed at the source), social security, unemployment and pension deducted.

To make a reliable comparison, you should take an average US salary, and deduct the same positions mentioned for spanish salaries.

You can't compare apples and oranges. Just how much costs a good health insurance for 1 person in your country ? Let's not even speak about a whole family...

So what you're saying is that in Spain if I earn 25K a year, I don't have to pay any income tax? No Social Security Tax? I get to keep the whole thing?

As for here in the US, the poor pay Zero income tax, and only have to pay Social Security (7.5%) and Medicare Tax (1.5%). The only other taxes they have to pay is State sales taxes on Non-Food Goods. Basically, in the US, the top 5% of income earners pay almost 50% of all personal income taxes collected and the Middle class pay the other half (Aprox 80%), the rest are considered too poor to pay anything, and if they have kids, usually they get an Earned Income Credit, equivalent to what they AND their employer paid in Social Security and Medicare Taxes (The Employer matches SS & Medicare contributions), so that works out to aprox 18% Tax refund to the working Poor.

And as for health insurance, We have the BEST medical facilities ANYWHERE in the world, with the latest technology and World Class doctors. If you look at films like John Q, you would think that Hospitols regularly let people die due to illness, but the truth is that the vast majority of Hospitols in the US are Non-Profit. If I have to go to the hospitol, and they give me some Asparin, they're going to charge me around $50.00 for that asparin (that's each 1, not each bottle) The reason they do this, is so they can pay for the people who can't pay for themselves. Here in the US, you CANNOT refuse care to a patient because of ability to pay. So people like me who CAN pay, have to pay 20 to 30X the normal price of products and services a the Hospitol, so they have the cash to take care of those who can't pay for themselves. It's not a perfect system, but unlike what they show in movies like John Q, you don't see kids dying for lack of medical treatment.

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