Israeli Soldiers Clear Out Gaza Strip

[Aperson]

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On a side note though, You could say that God was on Israel's side during the several wars, when they beat the crap out of all their Arab Neighbors and seized additional land, or you could say that they were VERY lucky. Throughout Israel's history they seem to have gotten VERY lucky in wars against much more powerfull enemy's. I guess it's all just dumb luck and God had nothing to do with it right.

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Or said israelies had better military tactics, etc. than their Arab neighbors.

[Wolfheart]

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On a side note though, You could say that God was on Israel's side during the several wars, when they beat the crap out of all their Arab Neighbors and seized additional land, or you could say that they were VERY lucky. Throughout Israel's history they seem to have gotten VERY lucky in wars against much more powerfull enemy's. I guess it's all just dumb luck and God had nothing to do with it right.

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Thats a classic,nothing out of ordinary.Each side thinks they are the good guys and that god protects them etc. Im sure Arabs have such stories too.

And werent you saying that killing innocents is wrong regardless of the reasons,now you are telling me that its(the one that god ordered) justified

[ 08-19-2005, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Wolfheart ]

[John Prezioso]

This is an older article but it actually falls into the approximate time frame that the one Nomad posted - and it's alot shorter!

Disregard the part about Arafat currently ruling, of course.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either, just wanted to ensure both sides of the issue are represented.

http://www.zoa.org/pressrel/20020510b.htm

[John Prezioso]

Also, for the slightly more religiously inclined, this web page has some interesting facts.

[sckid1108]

Rev. Majdi Siryani's theology is so messed up its not worth discussing. He needs a referal to any real rabinnic authority. Some understanding from the Jewish perspective would really help him.

I'll through my vote in that through wars of aggression the Arabs essentially relinquished any real "legal" claims they had before 1973.

Imagine modern Germany going back to German legal rulings of the 1930's and claiming parts of Austria or Poland. Oh, I think we owe the native americans some land as well...

Here's a stupid analogy. ( This is a game forum ) Think of starting a war as making a Saving Throw Versus Political/Legal Suicide. If you make the saving throw you get what you want from your victims. If you miss your saving throw then your whole cause collapses like a house of cards from a legal standpoint, and you lose any proclaimed "rights".

The Arabs fought over 3 times (48,50's,67,73), they lost ( through G-d, the IDF, their own clown shoes military co-ordination ), Now they are waging a proxy war. All the while screaming about legal claims and the UN.

I have to disagree with the Rev. again that peace and justice is *NOT* going to come about through Israel handling issues legally through the UN. READ ANY ANNE BAYEFSKY article and you can understand why Israel doesn't trust the UN in any fashion and rightly so.

Israel exists now as a state and it should take strong military, political, and economic steps to protect it's citizens and help provide for their welfare. In other words, make it's interests clear and create policies to suit.

As for their neighbors, I think this will cover that:

Abba Eban's famous line that the "Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

[John Prezioso]

quote:

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Here's a stupid analogy. ( This is a game forum ) Think of starting a war as making a Saving Throw Versus Political/Legal Suicide. If you make the saving throw you get what you want from your victims. If you miss your saving throw then your whole cause collapses like a house of cards from a legal standpoint, and you lose any proclaimed "rights".

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That's pretty good!

Regardless of any legal claims, which admittedly seem to be a little fuzzy to me, I am of the opinion that any land lost due to Islamic agression through Israel totally and righteously kicking their butts is now Israel's by right.

[Wolfheart]

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Some understanding from the Jewish perspective would really help him.

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I dont know about Rev. Majdi Siryani but I would like to see the events in your perspective.But unfortunately ANY ANNE BAYEFSKY article dont do it.I have looked at a few sites read some articles(like this ) but these articles gave me the impression that she's basically saying that we should forget all other aspects of the Israel-palestinian issue and instead focus on terror attacks..But having never read any of her articles before,its highly probable that Im wrong.

So I would like you to point me any article that explains the problem(But NOT partially please) from the beginning in YOUR perspective (and in detail),by ANNE BAYEFSKY or someone else.

[Guest $iLk]

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Regardless of any legal claims, which admittedly seem to be a little fuzzy to me, I am of the opinion that any land lost due to Islamic agression through Israel totally and righteously kicking their butts is now Israel's by right.

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That's the way things work. People who take the Arab's side on this would probably have supported giving Germany all the 'claims' it had in Europe.

[John Prezioso]

The only distinction is that Israel was not the agressor; Germany was. Thus Israel's cause imo was righteous, Germany's obviously wasn't.

[Guest $iLk]

I'm not talking about Israel. I'm thinking that any land the Israelis gained is theirs by default. The Arabs are the ones with claims.

[Wolfheart]

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I am of the opinion that any land lost due to Islamic agression through Israel totally and righteously kicking their butts is now Israel's by right.

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Isnt this similar to saying "being robbed by a thief gives you the right to rob him AND his relatives" who havent actually done anything to you??

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I'm thinking that any land the Israelis gained is theirs by default.

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So you say possesing the power to do something gives you the right to do it by default.Ok than if we expand on this logic and we can say the terrorists were right to attack you because they had the power to do it,right?

[Guest $iLk]

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So you say possesing the power to do something gives you the right to do it by default.Ok than if we expand on this logic and we can say the terrorists were right to attack you because they had the power to do it,right?

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No - I'm saying that if a nation attacks another nation first (the Arab nations who attack Israel) and Israel defeats them and captures some of their land in the process - Israel has the right by default to lay claim to that land.

Israel has no right to go in and sieze the land in a war of aggression unless there is a justifiable cause of pre-emption... i.e. if Missile Batteries are being loaded on the other side of the border in preparation of an attack.

[sckid1108]

From WolfHeart:

So I would like you to point me any article that explains the problem(But NOT partially please) from the beginning in YOUR perspective (and in detail),by ANNE BAYEFSKY or someone else.

This is personal only and would not be my reply in any academic or political debate.

---> BEGIN PERSONAL STUFF <---

From My Persepective.... interesting... well to answer for myself, personally. That is best summed up by:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2309.htm

Zechariah 9:1 -> 9:16. The English translation is REALLY awkward and it reads better in Hebrew, also the Stone translation is a bit better.

Ekron -> Tel-Aviv BTW ( Same geographic location )

Jebusites -> Refers to Jerusalem ( The location of Jerusalem was the capital city of the Jebusites.)

if you focus on verses 6 & 7 you see clearly that the Pals. are differentiated from other Arabs by refering to them by geographic location and using the term Phillistines. The next line indicates that they/he will be like a chief in Judah. This is a good thing and further interpretation (Radak i think) indicates this is peaceful co-habitation. Note that the messianic prophecy follows directly from the outcome of these events. ( indicated that this is a prophecy that has not been fufilled yet).

Interesting reading.

Personally it seems to indicate to me that the Gaza withdrawl will bring peace in time by giving the Moslems something that they can identify with and create a connection to religious Jews. My Muslim buddies say that some of the Arab religious writers are drawing parallels between the Religious Jews and Muslims and that it is now clear that Secular Zionism is the real enemy. They have read the Zechariah prophecy and are 100% on board with it. This is an early development and a bit apocraphal but we'll see what develops in the media.

I will state that we are certainly living in interesting times.

You can all think I'm nuts now, but you asked for personal.

---> End of Personal Stuff <---

Shabbat Shalom

-sckid

[John Prezioso]

quote:

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So you say possesing the power to do something gives you the right to do it by default.Ok than if we expand on this logic and we can say the terrorists were right to attack you because they had the power to do it,right?

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Wolfheart, that is quite a poor analogy.

How in heaven's name does Israel rightfully possessing the land of those who attacked her unprovoked compare AT ALL to terrorism?

Did Israel intend to take those lands before she was attacked? No.

Did Israel have the right to defend herself against a much larger agressor to whom she had done nothing? Yes.

If in said defense, Israel decides to keep some of the land it siezed for reasons of security, national defense, or reparation, then so be it. Sorry there Muslim nations; maybe you should have thought twice before combining your collective might and hurling at Israel.

[Wolfheart]

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Did Israel intend to take those lands before she was attacked? No.

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I have been reading a lot about this issue lately and Im not that sure about the above statement of yours.Not that I have drawn conclusions or anything but Im just not that sure about this..

quote:

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Regardless of the uncertainty of these allegations that had not been proven or accepted a lawful war in origin could not go on being lawful to whatever lengths it might be pursued. Assumingly the "self defense" claim is right [although it is debated];

the conclusion that title to territory may be obtained by "defensive conquest" is a defective conclusion

. According to article 2(4) of the Charter, a State exercising national defense

may go beyond its national boundaries to repel an attack

, but it

may not go beyond its territories to acquire territories

. Such legal conclusions are repugnant to the principle of "imminent threat and proportionality." Being a territory taken during hostilities, East Jerusalem, as well as the whole West Bank, according to international law criteria, is under belligerent occupation.

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So let me explain my initial analogy:going beyond your boundaries to repel an attack is self-defense,BUT going beyond your boundaries to acquire land is robbing the thief(and his family).

And @ sckid1108 :Thanks for the response,Im reading it right now.

[John Prezioso]

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So let me explain my initial analogy:going beyond your boundaries to repel an attack is self-defense,BUT going beyond your boundaries to acquire land is robbing the thief(and his family).

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Hey if a thief breaks into MY house, I kill him, not rob him. There is NOTHING illegal about Israel's presence, as it was done to debilitate the enemies' ability to launch further attacks, and claim land THEY believe is rightfully theirs. If they and "Palestine" come to a settlement, then that's what is legally binding.

[John Prezioso]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166287,00.html

Here is the reason the Palestinian 'cause' cannot be taken seriously.

Kill all the members of Hamas, then I'll listen.

[Wolfheart]

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There is NOTHING illegal about Israel's presence, as it was done to debilitate the enemies' ability to launch further attacks

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We totally agree here,they have the right to go beyond their borders to prevent terror attacks until the attacks stop BUT they dont have the right to use terror attacks as an excuse to claim land to fulfill a dream of theirs(which seems to have existed *before* any terror attack happened).

Yes,you have the right to kill or capture a thief(to be sent to prison) that has broken into your house,you have the right to go and capture the thief in HIS house if neccesary BUT you dont have the right to use this as an excuse to *settle* in HIS house(in which not only the thief lives) that you wanted to have *before* the theft happened.Laws dont (and shouldnt) care that some book of yours says the house is yours.

quote:

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Here is the reason the Palestinian 'cause' cannot be taken seriously.

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I dont agree.Being wrong in one aspect doesnt automagically mean you're wrong in ALL aspects.Just like being under attack of terrorists doesnt automagically mean you have the right to do anything.

[John Prezioso]

Let's say your a Palestinian. You rail against the "evil" of the Israeli "occupation" to garner world sympathy for your cause. All along, if you are not one of those Paestinians who revels in and celebrates the murder of Israeli civilians, at most you sit idly by and watch terrorists do murder in your name. You say or do nothing to stop the FAR greater evil of terrorism. This is the epitome of hypocricy, and hypocrites are not credible.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolfheart:

quote:

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There is NOTHING illegal about Israel's presence, as it was done to debilitate the enemies' ability to launch further attacks

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We totally agree here,they have the right to go beyond their borders to prevent terror attacks until the attacks stop BUT they dont have the right to use terror attacks as an excuse to claim land to fulfill a dream of theirs(which seems to have existed *before* any terror attack happened).

Yes,you have the right to kill or capture a thief(to be sent to prison) that has broken into your house,you have the right to go and capture the thief in HIS house if neccesary BUT you dont have the right to use this as an excuse to *settle* in HIS house(in which not only the thief lives) that you wanted to have *before* the theft happened.Laws dont (and shouldnt) care that some book of yours says the house is yours.

quote:

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Here is the reason the Palestinian 'cause' cannot be taken seriously.

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I dont agree.Being wrong in one aspect doesnt automagically mean you're wrong in ALL aspects.Just like being under attack of terrorists doesnt automagically mean you have the right to do anything.

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Israel won that land in a WAR of aggression by foreign powers, the Plaestinians have NO claim, and NO right to that land.

They ARE SQUATTERS, that's it, that's all.

A palestinian does NOT exist, and has NEVER existed, that term came from a totally different people.

The Palestinians are Syrians, Jordanians etc, that have been kicked OUT of those countries for insurgent and terrorist activities.

The ONLY way to finish this, is for Israel to cut loose on these freaks of nature and fight them and KILL them until they surrender.

Once they surrender, they can either A: live with Israel in peace, or B: Be moved back to the countries that THEY CAME FROM!!!

[sckid1108]

Here is sort of a fun quote that Jag should enjoy:

Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.

Here's what he said:

"... Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders,

cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem.

However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

----

[Wolfheart]

quote:

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This "Void of Sovereignty" claim is rejected on the ground that no such void or suspension existed, because during the Mandate period, the

community of citizens of Palestine held sovereignty subject to Great Britain's administration. Palestinians carried Palestine citizenship and were represented by a UN's recognized organization

(Arab Higher Committee). In fact, under the British Administration, Palestinian legislative, executive, and judicial bodies existed. This Palestinian entity, that had the indicia of a national State, enjoyed the right to sovereignty by virtue of its inalienable right to self determination.

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So how do you say "squatters",when these people lived there so long? These people were THERE before Israel came to the land,KNOWN and REPRESENTED.

I would like to know what you base your claims on?

And "freaks of nature"?You know that such a statement came from another man too,he also thought that those "freaks of nature" should be killed to stop..Whats even more funny is that I would expect sckid to be sensitive to such statement after all that happened to his people in the past..But I guess one can "ignore" such things easily when it serves him,right?

Wow..Interesting times indeed..

[Guest]

Palestine as a political structure has NEVER existed, palestinians as a people NEVER existed either, they were actually JEWS, and they were called that as a putdown.

Palestinians are made up of Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, etc.

And if I can go to jail for stating the truth in the EU, then the EU is as screwed up as I always suspected it was.

Palestine as a country, and Palestine as a people are a FICTION, they were made up in order to lay claim to a piece of property that rightfully belongs to Israel. If the "palestinians" truly want "palestine" then they should also demand a piece of Jordan, and a piece of Syria, since that piece of land that has been called Palestine, which is a LANDMARK, not a political structure runs through BOTH countries.

[sckid1108]

nomad since that info you found comes form the wikipedia ... well you draw your own conclusions.

Point is that he said something very unpopular with current PLO strategy and was killed for it. If what he said was rubbish and he was an unimportant or minority figure, they wouldn't have killed him.

Another reference for similar information.

This fact is also clearly expressed in the covenant of Fatah,

the ruling faction of the PLO:

http://www.fateh.net/e_public/constitution.htm#Goals

The Movement's Essential Principles:

Article (1) Palestine is part of the Arab World, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab Nation, and their struggle is part of its struggle.

In other words the "palestinians" are not distinct from the Arab Nation. This is important because Fateh is a NATIONALIST movement, just like those NATIONALISTS movements from Europe.

ex:

Al-Husseini became Grand Mufti in 1921. How he did so is a fascinating story told in "The English Godfather of Palestinian Terrorism" (To The Point, Dec. 16, 2003). He organized Arab rampages killing Jewish settlers throughout the 1920s, formed an alliance with the Nazi Party of Germany in the 1930s, met with Adolf Hitler in Berlin in November 1941 to encourage him to slaughter Jews in Europe so they couldn't escape to settle in Palestine, ordered Arab families to flee Israel upon independence so Arab armies could invade in 1948, founded the Palestine Liberation Organization, mentored his nephew Rahman Abdul Rauf al-Qudwa al-Husseini, and turned the leadership of the PLO over to him. His nephew assumed the alias of Yasser Arafat.

[Wolfheart]

Genocide as the Solution to "Terrorism" in the Occupied Territories

Just came accross this while googling for "The English Godfather of Palestinian Terrorism".

Excerpt:

"Things have worsened since then, and observers from abroad now report regularly (mainly on e-mail and outside the mainstream media) on how Israelis want more forcible action against the "terrorists," widely refer to the Palestinians with angry contempt as "animals," and how the police treat Palestinians with the same spirit as the German Waffen SS treated Jews. U.S. Jewish visitor Rebecca Elswit, recently watching the Jewish crowd crying "death to the Arabs" as the police dragged terrified and bleeding Arab children to paddy wagons, broke down and screamed at the police as they twisted the arm of one child till it broke. She was assured by one religious woman, however, that these were just "animals" ("Who Are These People? My People?," July 31, 2001). "

Here's another one I found interesting in here :

"Doomed path

Sir- This letter is to let you know that not all Americans are deeply in love with Israel or feel that Israel can do no wrong. I am a Catholic, not an Arab or an anti-Semite. I wrote to our president and the Californian senators asking them this simple questions: "How do we Americans benefit from all the assistance we are giving Israel? What is Israel doing for us?" I got no reply to the questions. Israel has tremendous political power, seems to control our politicians.

A joke currently making the rounds says: "We can eliminate suicide bombers by giving the Palestinians tanks, helicopter gunships, cruise missiles and F-16s. Then they would kill in a civilised manner -- like the Israelis do."

Sharon has wiped out all hope for a dialogue. He can send tanks and aeroplanes, but he cannot solve the issue nor give the Israeli people peace and security. The Roman Empire existed by the imposition of military power, and Israel is following the same path: conquer, colonise, subjugate.

Rudy Haig

San Jose, California

USA "

[ 08-21-2005, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Wolfheart ]