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View Points Of Ex-Muslims


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i.e. Take it for what it's worth.

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quote:

Originally posted by $iLk:

i.e. Take it for what it's worth.

True, very true. That also applies to everything we talk and debate about. I only make it available from a discussion aspect. I think we can all agree there must be a shift in Islam to the modern age and that it is up to them to stop the fanatics.

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quote:

True, very true. That also applies to everything we talk and debate about. I only make it available from a discussion aspect. I think we can all agree there must be a shift in Islam to the modern age and that it is up to them to stop the fanatics.

I'm kind of torn. It's important to understand a religion, and also understand the aspects that go into their beliefs.

We can't exactly convert them by saying "Hey the Koran says to beat women!" because they'll just tell us "So what? The only thing I have questions of is whether it should be with my hand or a stick."

It's a different culture... and there are a billion Muslims worldwide. Shifting them to the 'modern age' is good in terms of their behavior towards other countries... but it's going to be hard to change that mindset.

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I have heard that a lot of what the more militant Muslim preachers claim is in the Quran (or Koran) isn't really in there, or alot of what they say is a perversion of its meaning.

I don't have the patience to read the whole thing, but I have yet to find any overly objectionable content in what I have read.

I wonder if the kind of Islam practiced today by militants and terrorists is a perversion not unlike that of the Catholic church, where it was infiltrated by homosexuals and pedophiles who became priests.

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The English version of the Koran is missing quite a bit for several reasons...

1.) They don't want you to know what it says.

2.) The Koran is not supposed to be in any language other than the original according to... the Koran.

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I have to admit to being torn on this subject.

Let me admit my prejudices upfront.

1) I have a close relationship with a long-time very devout muslim buddy. We learn together every week and he is a high quality human being.

Also his family runs the only Kosher Bakery in town so there are some advantages there too :-)

2) I take the traditional Jewish position with regard to Jewish holy texts and I tend to view other religions from the perspective of Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak Kook.

3) I take that a priori position that how religious people ACT is a reflection of the principles and practices of a certain religion. This leads to evaluating the general behavior of large groups of people who profess a certain faith.

---- Done ---

First, Rabbi Kook, and I agree, states unequivocally that all monothestic religions contain "sparks of holiness" that lead Jew/Non-Jews to faith/belief/emmunah (these are distinct) in the one true G-d. According to MAIMONIDES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides)

Islam is a truly monothestic faith, Christianity has problems due to trinity belief (but irrelevant for now). I will confirm that my own experience with Islam will back up this claim.

Positive Points on Islams Side:

http://www.shia.org/fundamental.html

1) Monothestic

2) Belief and Action Based

- Clear set of moral principles

- Clear Creed

- Sharia Law provides for implementing Koranic dictates on a communal basis. A justice system and a system of exegesis exists for creating new interpretations of the law for modern situations.

- Prayer is a regular daily event

- Communal worship & charity

3) Claims of Authenticity are Based on Revealed Truth from G-d.

4) Bases claims and theology on prior established faiths ( especially Judaism, some christianity but not quite as much )

5) Doesn't deny other faiths but does question their validity in the face of Islamic truths.

Negative Points on the side of Islam

1) Religious authority in Islam is NOT clearly delineated like in Judaism or Christianity.

This is a HUGE problem since many authorities claim to be the TRUE form of Islam and there is no clear-cut way to weed them out (wahabbism, hamas islam, shite, sunni, salafi, sufi, etc. ). Notice all the fights between competing mullahs. Not to mention the Sunni/Shite death struggle over the authenticity of the Ayatollah (oy vay).

2) "Truth" of Revelation is based on the sole prophecy of one person to a small group of followers.

- "Truth" established through the winning of wars

- "Truth" established by "Read the Koran it's so beautiful that it will move you to believe it is true".

3) Sharia law conflicts with Torah law on MAJOR issues.

- Women's rights, Men's rights, and gender roles in society

- Justice System

- Capital Punishment

- Dietary Laws ( not quite as much disagreement)

- Theological Perspective ( Muhammed as prophet, JC as prophet, etc.)

4) Principles of Jihad are TOTALLY at odds with the Christian/Jewish mindset. Concepts of Dar Al-Harb and Dar Al-Islam are completely contrary to our current way of thinking.

5) You don't want to be an infidel or kuffar

6) Taqiyya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

---

Now the Islam practiced by my buddy I must say DEVIATES strongly with that of the Wahabbi Saudis and from the Shite Hizbollah. Does he represent the majority of Islamic thinking ? I don't think so, but his understanding and ability to integrate Torah Law ( He sees as DIVINELY GIVEN to the Jews only ) and Islamic Sharia (given to non-Jews) makes for a very unified whole. From his understanding of the Koran he posits that Israel 100% belongs to the religious jews (people of the book) and it is the duty of their muslim brothers (literally, Ishmael is brother to Yitzchak) to ensure that fact. My comment (in jest) to him was that if you don't like Sharia law then Jews do take converts. Sorta, we kinda chase'm off and discourage them, but it's done with their best interests in mind... who wants to have peyos if you don't 'have to' :-)

Politically he is Anti-Zionist in the form of zionism as secular political ideology. He will not tolerate Jews who divorce themselves from Judaism, in his mind they produce people like Sharon who are essentially prisioners of the Atheist world view. Um, kuffars are right out.

His attitude towards christianity is one of prosetlyize the christians until they see the true light of monotheism. NO VIOLENCE, since a Koranic verse is "There is no compulsion in religion." Something violated throughout Arab history but much less in Persian history.

---

I can only sympathize with people who have been traumatized in Islamic countries and have abandoned Islam or faith in G-d for that matter. Heck many Jews abandoned G-d because of Manischewitz ( I'm kidding but only kinda if you've tasted the stuff you know what I mean).

What to do... A lot of it is up to Muslims themselves, man has a big role in interpreting divine revelation. Us non-Muslims can at best provide information and friendship to Muslims who are in a position to lead the Muslim communities down a particular ideological path. We do have the duty to defend ourselves both physically and politically from an Islam that would have us "enslaved" to a Islamofacist ideology. From that perspective it is our duty to educate ourselves enough about Islam to get beyond the slogans of "Islam is a religion of peace" and all that. CAIR and all the gang are right out. But we do ourselves a favor in learning something about this religion so that when we do have a serious discussion with a real Muslim we can differentiate between a strain of Islamic thought and some idealized version of Islam ( as advertised ).

In General:

From my perspective we are all finding our way to Truth and even within the context of the Torah, which according to my understanding, is the blueprint from which reality was constructed there is a vital place for Islam & Christianity in the world.

As a whole from my (3) position above I see that Muslims take the "Submission" definition of Islam way too literally. The Islamists are hijacking the faith and the mass layity are "submitting" to the few who have power and a powerful ideology (twisted). Submit to G-d and not to Ayatollah blah blah...

Best English Translation: Yusuf Ali

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846

Remember that you need to read the Haddiths as well...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

Kuffar (Kafir): http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glos...term.KAFIR.html

----------

Sorry for the babble, you can shoot the messenger now ( really funny if you have some Islamic humor in mind... )

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Is the above a version of "my friend thinks..." (Fallacy: Appeal to Authority) ???

Kinda yeah.

But it is the one solid data point I have that is not either:

1) Internet Based (Totally suspicious)

2) Based on brief or passing experience

- like being freaked out when trapped in the Arab quarter at midnight in Jerusalem ( strange green lights everywhere )

I am sure that there are MANY people who would disagree with pretty much everything above.

But it adds to the discussion :-)

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Topic on Ex-Muslims...

1) I posted on a serious muslim

2) Nomad posts on a Jew -> Muslim

3) $ilk -> What's wrong with Trinity ?

We are universally off topic. See Nomad, the tower of babel at work !

:-)

---

Philosophically what is wrong with the trinity ?

Simply stated from a jewish perspective our view is that g-d is a single, unitary, one (Echad). The trinity is viewed as some composite one, an amalgamation. Not to mention the whole man as g-d thing is right out the window for us. There is a clear seperation g-d is g-d, man is man. We can emulate our creator and try to be as holy as we can. But ultimately g-d's ways are not our ways and g-d's thoughts are not our thoughts (Job).

On the plus side, for non-jews, Christianity seems to have a powerful influence on those who are committed to following it. Again probably a case of "many paths to the same goal". The danger is Jews falling away from their path and goal, in the past Christianity was a negative force that was trying to actively convert Jews. These days there are significant christian movements that see Jews as having a role to play as Jews in bringing about redemption for the world. Because of the change in philosophy a more trusting relationship between christianity and judaism has formed. Theologicaly there maybe problems, but "so what" really.

(see the trillion websites on christian zionists)

(http://www.ifcj.org/site/News2?abbr=rabbi_&page=NewsArticle&id=6185)

Are they sincere ? I had my doubts. Met a bunch in Israel, seemed sincere, had to revise my opinion. Such is life.

---

For Nomad, the fact that billions of people believe in 1 G-d may lead them to overlook or see past their racial and ethnic differences. Our purpose is to keep struggling to reach the ideal vision of Isiah. Another view is that ÔÇ£we donÔÇÖt need to complete the task, but neither are we free to desist from it.ÔÇØ

Take Care,

-sckid

a little inspiration:

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/prayer/Fi...ough_Prayer.asp

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the whole source of the mess is simple.

A bunch of societies in the 21st century who'se socioeconomic development doesnt go past the 12th century following a 1000+ year old ideology with access to 21st century technology that want to turn the 21st century into the 12th century using a 1000 year old text.

Arab societies have not gone through an industrial revolution of their own or their own age of enlightment. Their societies incorporated the physical benefits of those eras from the west, mainly technology.

In contrast with other non-western societies you see that Japan and Asia itself did incorporate technology and at the same time grew as a society into modern times or at least to something close to early 20th century. Why not Arabs?

Answer:Power.

In both western and asian societies they each grew sociologically and separated religion and governmental power. The famous separation of Church and State. Arab societies have just barely begun to grow into this concept. But ever since the medieval ages in europe arab societies have kept their religions in political leadership... giving a small number of elites the ability to keep themselves in power for centuries at the expense of their people's development.

After all, its good to be king and the peons be damned.

Western and Asian societies almost regressed back to this thinking..except religion was replaced by ideology. Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. It took the biggest freaking war in history to slap japan and germany out of their ubermensch nonsense and nearly 50 years of economic warfare (cold war) until russian society realized how screwed up stalinist communism ideology was (economic plunge of USSR & breakup).

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