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quote:

Well, a MINORITY of them were looting etc, a good majority had left town, as they were told to, and the others that did not have to evacuate in Katrinas path, banded together to protect their belongings and each other, WITHOUT government help.


Like in France, only the minority were rioting there.

quote:

We are INDEPENDENT here, we believe that EVERYONE is capable of making it on their OWN, without GOVERNMENT help.


Without society around you, you'd really be independent, on that I agree. But without that society around you, you would pretty quickly vanish in hostile enviroment because without society, you would have nothing to rely on. No guns, no technology, no nothing except your bare hands. And if everyone would think like that(being independent and self suffient), mankind would vanish out of earth pretty quickly.

quote:

The government does NOT help, the government is a roadblock to people who wish to be independent, and make money, start business's etc.


Apparently you missed out something important. Ever heard about social agreement? You claim that goverment doesent help(offcourse, the US goverment isn't very helpful, I see that too). But how to start any kind of businness in society where everyone is potential hostile for you?

quote:

When you grow up, you will figure that out...


Or maybe I won't

How do you explain that when I was younger, I used to think like you do, but when I got older, had some education, I start thinking differently? Brain damage perhaps?

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Unfortantly, co-operation is something that doesn't exist, since people think we live in a "me" society, where only they matter and no one else

The day humanity actually begins to co-operate is the day that tells the world humanity will end soon (like an armageddon)


Not everyone live in "me" society. But most of here on these forums does.

And you got point there saying that mankind needs common threat before they would co-operate. Maybe hostile aliens will come and try to invade us before we learn.

quote:

Actually Volio, THIS is the worst thing one could do to embarass oneself. It should've been a lesson for you, not to blurt things out, especially if you do not know the subject at hand. Kinda like you did there.

Don't make a fool of yourself by saying things like "You owe me because I build that highway/building/tower...before you were born" or "Your parents raised you, so therefore you owe them" or "if you have enought, you should share with others". That's why the comment was made about your maturity. For only three kinds of people could make a claim of ownership on anothers persons property/labor/wealth/knowledge/life. The first would be a young kid who pictures the world banding together and singing koombaya, the second would be a grown man/leech who hasn't achieved for himself and depends on others for his own and his family's living, the third would be a criminal/looter. So you should be thankfull Jaguar placed you in the young kid catergory, for the other two would've been much worse and more embarassing.

Once you grow up, and see that the money taken away from you could go towards getting your kids a better education, better toys, a house with a back yard, an extra vacation for your family, and better living/retirment for you and your wife, you thinking will change.


Right.. No wonder why communism didn't work on Russia. But maybe it would've if enough your types would've left that country. But its too late now

And what comes to "this", at least I am capable to admit when I've done something stupid.

Soback, try to imagine world where everyone would be like you and think like you do. Could you trust anybody since everyone's top priority would be "me" and nothing else?

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Volio:

I for one am glad that posts are archived. I stand by each and every one I've posted. If I have ever been wrong I have stated such in an ensuing post.

I'm not sure the kind of reception you expected, coming into a new forum with an apparent superiority complex. I don't put much stake in steryotypes, but if I did, I might think you fit the French Snootiness profile quite perfectly.

In all fairness and seriousness, Europe and especially France do take quite a beating in these forums at times, so I can certainly understand you being on the defensive. (I am assuming you are French here based on the content of your posts , but correct me if I'm wrong, by all means)

Really, you must keep a cool head anyway, and argue FACTS, not silliness. Just a suggestion.

Your misrepresentation of American culture and attitudes exemplifies either your ignorance of them or your anger at us. Either way, you are almost completely wrong on every point you've made thus far. I'd be glad to detail them one by one if you wish to continue.

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quote:

Originally posted by Voli0:

Like in France, only the minority were rioting there.

A certain minority is rioting, and why is that? Because they are A: expecting the government to GIVE them stuff, and they aren't getting it, and B: they are Muslim, a whole other ball of wax...

quote:

Without society around you, you'd really be independent, on that I agree. But without that society around you, you would pretty quickly vanish in hostile enviroment because without society, you would have nothing to rely on. No guns, no technology, no nothing except your bare hands. And if everyone would think like that(being independent and self suffient), mankind would vanish out of earth pretty quickly.

Well, ya see, society is a wonderful thing, we don't put down society, but we enjoy our independence as well, you seem to feel that they are somehow different.

We have a fairly free society here, although socialism in parts is running rampant, something the founding fathers were ALWAYS against.

As far as being self sufficient, I just want the government to stay out of it. Health care costs are skyrocketing, how did that happen, well, if you look at history, as soon as the federal government got involved in providing health care, THAT is when the price of health care rose.

Just stay out of the way is all I ask government, we can take care of ourselves, the government is there to protect my rights from being taken away by others, THAT'S IT, nothing more do I want from the government.

quote:

Apparently you missed out something important. Ever heard about social agreement? You claim that goverment doesent help(offcourse, the US goverment isn't very helpful, I see that too). But how to start any kind of businness in society where everyone is potential hostile for you?

That is one of the governments ACTUAL jobs, to keep business and contracts in force, and to enforce them, one of the few that the government is for.

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Or maybe I won't

Probably NOT....

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How do you explain that when I was younger, I used to think like you do, but when I got older, had some education, I start thinking differently? Brain damage perhaps?

Indoctrination....

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Not everyone live in "me" society. But most of here on these forums does.

It's NOT society, it is human nature, free enterprise and capitalism rewards human nature, whereas Socialism and communism are against Human nature. If the good of the many, is more important then YOUR OWN good, then you have a MAJOR problem, NOT the rest of society.

quote:

And you got point there saying that mankind needs common threat before they would co-operate. Maybe hostile aliens will come and try to invade us before we learn.

Yep, they will come, we will cooperate until they are defeated, and go back to the same old, same old. Your utopis DON'T exist, and NEVER will.

quote:

Right.. No wonder why communism didn't work on Russia. But maybe it would've if enough your types would've left that country. But its too late now

It was NOT communism, it was SOCIALISM, you need to figure out the difference.

quote:

Soback, try to imagine world where everyone would be like you and think like you do. Could you trust anybody since everyone's top priority would be "me" and nothing else?

Life would be grand!!!

You would be free to be ALL that you could be, to make as much money as you wanted to without the government coming in and taking it away at the point of a gun.

Life would be GRAND, and technology would leap forward even faster then it is now, because there would be even MORE money to be put into research and developement, instead of to the government to fund a bunch of looters.

The profit motive, and rewarding human nature does INCREDIBLE things....

Punish human nature, and the system will fail, as socialism ALWAYS does, reward it, and you get the strongest economy imaginable, the US is that....

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quote:

In all fairness and seriousness, Europe and especially France do take quite a beating in these forums at times, so I can certainly understand you being on the defensive. (I am assuming you are French here based on the content of your posts , but correct me if I'm wrong, by all means)

Really, you must keep a cool head anyway, and argue FACTS, not silliness. Just a suggestion.

Your misrepresentation of American culture and attitudes exemplifies either your ignorance of them or your anger at us. Either way, you are almost completely wrong on every point you've made thus far. I'd be glad to detail them one by one if you wish to continue.


Actually I'm from Finland, which you should know by know if you really were reading my posts:

Stated by me: "Anyway, point of my arguing were partly towards the people claiming here that socialism won't work. It works here in Finland."

Thus, arquing that I'm completely wrong in every post I've made so far doesen't seem quite credible.

What comes in my credibility, it must be at zero in these forums. But I try to keep in facts. My statements about socialism, communism or capitalism are just my opinions, which don't weight a lot in your scale. But stating that my arguing is sillyness is pure foolishness. I could also say that I don't really care about stereotypes, but if I did, I might think you fit in to the blind-to-the-facts american category. We can't plausible claim which political system is better, but we can, for sure, say that CIA is making prisoner flights thru europe airfields(for what purpose, God knows). If you don't believe me, try searching about the facts or read this. We can also say that there is high rate of gun related in america, without even looking discredible mr. Moore's "documents". Are you also claiming that Winter War between Finland and Russia in 1939 - 1940 is a lie?

In one point you are right: I am upset to United States, but that got nothing to do with the ordinary people living within its borders; it's because the foreign politics that U.S practices.

quote:

It's NOT society, it is human nature, free enterprise and capitalism rewards human nature, whereas Socialism and communism are against Human nature. If the good of the many, is more important then YOUR OWN good, then you have a MAJOR problem, NOT the rest of society.


Talking about what is against human nature.. While free enterprise, and especially capitalism, aren't exactly the first social model innovations mankind had, social caring like looking after family, the group and tribe, were that for sure. As a anthropologist I used to study these early models of social life, if you want to put it that way.

As a somewhat sophisticated man Jaguar, you must agree that communism and socialism(for they include sharing amongst the people) are indeed based on those early models of social life, which includes sharing food, habitants and hunting grounds. Most definitave thing distinguishing communism and socialism from early cultures are that they are political models, invented to control masses and states. First societys amongst mankind have been hunter-gatherer societys where almost everything, except most private life, have been traditionally shared. So claiming that socialism is against the human nature seems false at quick glance.

quote:

Yep, they will come, we will cooperate until they are defeated, and go back to the same old, same old. Your utopis DON'T exist, and NEVER will.


True, for utopia refers to "no place", which originates from ancient greece or latin, can't remember which.

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It was NOT communism, it was SOCIALISM, you need to figure out the difference.


That is really a matter of rhetorics. I don't count Wikipedia as a very credible source, but it was quickest source to be found.

They seem to claim that Soviet Union was a communist state since it was ruled by one party, communist party. But it can as easily to be called socialist state.

quote:

Life would be grand!!!

You would be free to be ALL that you could be, to make as much money as you wanted to without the government coming in and taking it away at the point of a gun.

Life would be GRAND, and technology would leap forward even faster then it is now, because there would be even MORE money to be put into research and developement, instead of to the government to fund a bunch of looters.

The profit motive, and rewarding human nature does INCREDIBLE things....

Punish human nature, and the system will fail, as socialism ALWAYS does, reward it, and you get the strongest economy imaginable, the US is that....


If you really believe in that, then your morals are questionable. If there was no state to control it's people, forcing in social agreement, there would be some thug pointing that gun in you and taking ALL of your money.

You'd need to be constantly alerted. But then again, maybe you wanted to be the thug.

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quote:

Originally posted by Voli0:

If you really believe in that, then your morals are questionable. If there was no state to control it's people, forcing in social agreement, there would be some thug pointing that gun in you and taking ALL of your money.

You'd need to be constantly alerted. But then again, maybe you wanted to be the thug.

Why don't you go BACK and read my ENTIRE post again....

You missed a HUGE chunk of it, and it is obvious by the above statement.

If I feel like, which I may, or may not, I will deal with the rest of your post later on, but you need to go back and REread my post again.

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quote:

Why don't you go BACK and read my ENTIRE post again....

You missed a HUGE chunk of it, and it is obvious by the above statement.

If I feel like, which I may, or may not, I will deal with the rest of your post later on, but you need to go back and REread my post again.


I'm not entirely sure why you want me to re-read your post? Clarify me if I didn't quite get it(I am finnish after all, might have some trouble understanding english at 100%)

I know you agreed on social agreement and goverments role as a "sword" keeping contracts in force etc.

But we have also keep in mind that you was refering to my question for Soback. According to Soback's posts, he thinks goverment(at least socialist goverment) as a thug stealing your money and giving it away to the leeches. In the world where everyone would be like him, there would be no goverment, or the goverment would be like Iraqi's goverment used to be before U.S(and U.N) "liberation", i.e the strongest rulez, by the expense of others(which, I might add, could've been the only way to rule such a nation).

It's pretty late here already, I better get in the bed.. Hopefully I'll get more constructive feed back as a morning posts

One quick add before I go tho: If it is really as you claim, that French imigrants are rioting because they don't get their monthly paycheck, then it's obviously France's own fault. I don't know the exact reasons for the riots(except the "facts" I've seen from local news), but I hardly believe that it is fault of the socialistic system itself.

[ 11-30-2005, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Voli0 ]

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Volio:

Apologies for mistationg your country of origin. You only stated that you lived in Finland, and kept saying "we" when refering to France and the riots and burning. My mistake.

As far as my credibility, I would suggest that you have no moral ground on which to question it, judging by the quality of the content of your posts. For exhibits A-F, I present a recap:

quote:

... As if. My post was deleted and now I am going to get a ban, but actually, I don't care; I found it that these forums have such a ill mentality that I don't want to be part of community where they limit what can be said and what cannot...

...but M.Moores Bowling for Columbine showed pretty well that there is something wrong with US people and guns...

... When you were born, there were roads and stuff even tho you haven't paid a cent. And that is why the society supports the life of individual. Thats why the society is entitled to even your money...

...But without that society around you, you would pretty quickly vanish in hostile enviroment because without society, you would have nothing to rely on...

.. Hopefully I'll get more constructive feed back as a morning posts...


Well, that's enough for now. The point is, there is nothing of any substance whatsoever in your ridiculous argument that warrants constructive rebuttal.

There is something wrong with us? Because you watched a Muckraking Moore propaganda piece and feel educated now?

My money is SOCIETY'S? I bet you can't wait to steal someone elses right now. The US is guitly of Human rights violations, is it? I notice your buddy Saddam didn't anger you enough to get you posting, though. How many mass graves have we filled? How many head have we lopped off for the world's viewing pleasure? And human beings have nothing to rely on but society, huh? You are not brain damaged (a possibility you stated earlier in jest) - more like brainwashed it would seem. Are you that much of a weakling that you can't provide for yourself?

As for your point about the importance of your opinions, I think you should know I don't hold my opinions higher than anyone else's. However, you might trying to lend your own some weight by avoiding any further spewing of the baseless nonsense you have been. Without backing up, I might add.

Your points are well past the demarcation of ridiculousness that even requires that they be rebutted. I just felt I would try to get you going on the right track. For a lesson you might try reviewing some of Nomad's posts. He and I disagree often, but most of the time (when he is not letting Jag and Soback get under his skin) what he writes is a textbook example of how to constructively formulate an argument.

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About the healthcare thing: The US must be doing things horribly wrong, as it spends the most per capita then any other country. Heck, its private spending is more than the combined private plus public spending per capita of all countries but Germany. And yet the US doesn't have the highest life expectancy or lowest morality rate. However this may have more to do with the United States current drug frenzy* as opposed to any other factor.

(*That being the "must prescribe pill" thinking as opposed to looking at lifestyle factors.)

Prez: Yes, Saddam did horrible things, that dosn't however erase what the US did.

Don't hold your opinions higher than anyone else's? You so need to work on your ego.

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quote:

Don't hold your opinions higher than anyone else's? You so need to work on your ego.

Please explain. And while you're at it, my friend from the frozen wastes to the north, what "atrocities" has the U.S. committed? Mention college pranks like naked body piles, and I might just laugh.

Healthcare is a forum thread unto itself, even though a certain entitlement mentality inherent to socialism does infect the issue to some degree.

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That was supposed to be a joke (smiley = joke).

And I thought there was that whole kerfluffle over that one prison starting with a G (I'm horrible with names). And if that was successfully proven wrong, I am terribly sorry and would like the link to the discussion topic covering it.

EDIT: I should at the US has ask for some fairly odd things such as any peace keepers they provide be exempt from any human rights violation trails.

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Did Volio just say that my version of the government would be the strongest rule?

Volio, if you did, then you were either clueless about the things I was saying and the meaning didn't get throught or something got lost in the translation. Like I said, instead of keeping on with this embarassments, like posting how people owe others from the moment they were born, or they owe the society because society allows them to perform work and buy food, get educated about the subject at hand. Based on the points you brought up, you have absolutly no knowledge on the meanings of indivudualism, libertarianism, anarcho capitalism, and fail to understand that people do not live or operate like ants or bees do in hives, nor are we brainless drones. You aslo fail to understand that one person has NO rights of claim to the property of another, it really is that simple, there is ZERO, NONE, absolutly NO excuse for one person to live off of another, and be obtaining the products of labor of another by force (which is what the government does when it takes MY money and gives it to the next guy). Being poor is not an excuse, being sick is not an excuse, being dumb is not an excuse. The fact remains, when you take something that doesn't belong to you, it's a criminal act of stealing/looting, when you accept something that you know was stolen or looted, you are leeching.

I would waste none of my time with you, and I am not doing the following for you, being the selfish, egocentric human that I am, it brings me personal joy to post the following:

Material that should get you started on the road to self respect, individualism, and finally FREEDOM (if you take the right pill, lol): This will be scary to you, so hold on...

1. Atlas Shrugged Simply the best book ever written. "

Set in an imaginary America in a communist world, Atlas Shrugged is a sharp critique of a corrupt communist system and its damaging effects on areas as various as love, science, and industrial productivity. The novel's main protagonists, Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden, are capitalist-minded industrialists, "Atlases" who carry the collapsing national economy on their backs. Things change, however, when the mysterious John Galt begins a revolution against the existing order, believing that the parasitic society would destroy itself if its competent and hardworking members would simply stop working. But first, the protagonists must learn how to let go of the ties of obligation, responsibility, and guilt connecting them to the abusive community in all aspects of their lives."

2. The Atlas Society

3. John Galt's speech (the mini version)

4. Libertarianism defined

5. Anarcho Capitalism Defined

And last, since you do not live in US, I will not bother you with US Bill of Rights, The Declaration of Independence, and The Constitution. They are a great read if you want to undertand what the role of the government is if you are to have a free country where citizens are not slaves to the sickest, poorest, dumbest, laziest, criminals that happen to be living in our society.

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Aperson: Don't be so insecure - your joke was funny! I was feigning ignorance. I should have used more smilies myself. And stop hitting me with that darn fish!! (You know, like this: )

Are you talking Abu Graihb(spelling)? All of the guilty members have been tried and sentenced. That was NOT a U.S. sanctioned operation. It was a couple of young G.I.'s on a power trip lacking proper leadership and supervision.

And if you mean Guantanomo, I have stated before that my U.S. Navy bootcamp (from what I've heard, the easiest of the major miliary branches) was far worse than anything those terrorist thugs being held there were subjected to. Nothing reported there amounted to anything close to torture.

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quote:

Originally posted by Prez

There is something wrong with us? Because you watched a Muckraking Moore propaganda piece and feel educated now?


Propaganda or not, he showed clearly enough the connection between guns, crimes and mentality in US. I don't even bother to dig up the statistics for you.

quote:

My money is SOCIETY'S? I bet you can't wait to steal someone elses right now.


There are many viewpoints on that matter. Soback provided me with some good links into definations of Libertarianism and Anarcho Capitalism and after reading those I can now see your standpoints more clearly.

Nevertheless I hold in my opinion of sharing. I will later show you why I despise capitalism in purest, even it goes off topic.

quote:

And if you mean Guantanomo, I have stated before that my U.S. Navy bootcamp (from what I've heard, the easiest of the major miliary branches) was far worse than anything those terrorist thugs being held there were subjected to. Nothing reported there amounted to anything close to torture.


Well, not exactly poking in the eye with a stick or giving you electronic shocks in the balls, which are forms of physical torture.

But mental torture is as bad, or even worse. Here are some pics out of Guantanamo.

And what comes in those CIA's prisoner flights, it is suspected that they take prisoners(suspected terrorists) in to the countries where physical torture is daily life.

quote:

Originally posted by Soback

Did Volio just say that my version of the government would be the strongest rule?


I did and I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me. If that is your view of world, it is OK. But from the critics pointed towards Liberalism, please accept mine as well:

Criticism of libertarianism from the left tends to focus on its economic aspects, claiming that capitalism of a radical laissez-faire (free market) character undermines individual liberty, or creates poverty and harms society and the economy. Both left- and right-wing critics claim that libertarian ideas about individual economic and social freedom are contradictory, untenable or undesirable. Libertarianism's proponents claim it to be a sound rethinking of classical ideologies and a rejection of harmful statist policies. They further claim that personal responsibility, private charity, and liberal economic policies (laissez-faire) are more effective, and/or more ethical, in eliminating poverty than government intervention and tax-funded programs.(Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian)

Now we have a good bridge on my personal critique towards capitalism. I know that people are free to choose whom they work to and so on. But imagine overgrowth corporation, which owners(usually the ones funding the corp) are not even remotely connected in corporation's ways to operate. They just see they money flow on their accounts, while the real pilots(mind if I use that kind of term) of the corporation are the hired managers who merely "work" in that corporation. Offcourse they want to do best possible job in raising income of the corporation, because they want their own lists of merits to appear as high as possible. This leads in too hard work condition of the ordinary workers in that corporation(not necessarily, but according to modern trends it appears so), as the managers want to reduce the "excess" expenses of that particular corporation.

Personal examble:

Me and my wife went to have lunch in local pizzeria(part of a pizzachain <-- poor english again). Anyway, there you could eat as much pizza as you want against small fee. There was a lot of customers and a lot of pizza were consumed. But in that whole pizzeria, there was single employee doing everything from pizza baking to cashing the customers and doing the dishes. It's almost like slavery aswell. Maybe that poor person didn't have choices but accept that job. And all this because the corporation want to "save" in extra expenses. It ain't hard to imagine us as a corporate slaves either, if that kind of "capitalism" would flourish.

Too much competition might lead in sick occurances. Let's hope that trade unions can hold up in the times of tough competition.

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Violo:

quote:

Propaganda or not, he showed clearly enough the connection between guns, crimes and mentality in US. I don't even bother to dig up the statistics for you.

Absolutely incredible. You insist on carrying on your senseless and baseless diatribe agains the U.S., but you can't be bothered to post anything concrete? And you expect to be taken seriously?

Maybe by the type of people who are prone to believe anything that supports their stance without a shred of proof, but not by me, my friend. And if you think you were handed the "facts" by Mr. Moore in an objective manner, then I can actually believe that you may be naive enough to believe that your wallet indeed does belong to society as you have stated.

quote:

I will later show you why I despise capitalism in purest, even it goes off topic.

A reasonable, unbiased review of capitalism as an economic model by a rational person would certainly yield an unalienable truth:

There is nothing to despise about capitalism - unless you are against unabridged freedom. What I'm thinking you are taking issue with is the state of capitalism in America. Now, I understand that someone not used to total freedom in his life (be it economic or otherwise) would not be inheritantly able to grasp the truth about freedom, so I will state it for you.

Freedom is not an entity; it is neither good nor evil. It is what it is. A free man can decide to spend his days (and money) passing out food to homeless people and working in the soup kitchens, or he can spend it on creating a huge corporation and run it with an iron fist, maximizing profit through greed and show no concern for his workers or the consumers he exploits through their own ignorance. Our founding fathers had no illusion about freedom and what it could lead to. That was not the point. The point is, whether it was used for good or for ill, freedom is an unalienable right granted to EVERY human being by God, and thus there is no discussion. Freedom belongs to all who accept it.

But with freedom, like with power, comes great responsibility. That freedom has led to some unsavory things in the U.S., I will not deny. The good that has come out of it is immeasurable, however, and easily dwarfs the abuses that you seem so keen on focusing on. One only needs to look at the economic prosperity that the U.S. has enjoyed for her entire existence, the kind that European countries who have been around 5 or ten times as long will NEVER experience as long as they saddle themselves with Socialism, to know that freedom is the only way to go, especially since to abridge it in any way (beyond reasonable regulation) is immoral and unethical.

And torture? I suppose if it were you, you would treat all of the captured murderers, who would cut off your family's heads in front of you and laugh, with kid gloves. These guys are treated infinitely better than they deserve, and if what little abuse they ARE subjected to upsets you, I would suggest that you open your eyes and take a look at the world in which you live. These guys are playing for keeps. If we bind our hands any further than we already have, we might as well just give the country over to the neo-fascist miltant Muslims now. Of course, I suspect nothing would make you happier.

You need to explain the "why's" of your opinions to have any credence. Sure, you are entitled to your opinions, but to have them taken seriously requires you do more than just rant about how you don't like us. Post FACTS, or prepare to dismissed as an extremist nut.

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quote:

Absolutely incredible. You insist on carrying on your senseless and baseless diatribe agains the U.S., but you can't be bothered to post anything concrete? And you expect to be taken seriously?


How many times you need to be proven wrong when you can swallow it? Then again, you must be only teasing me and trying how long I will provide you with the facts...

Linky to gun stats

" American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)" (National Education Association - Health Information Network)

I'm growing bored in bringing forth mere facts just for you. Throw your eye in the lake, so that you may see the bottom from all the water.

quote:

Freedom is not an entity; it is neither good nor evil. It is what it is.


I agree. I'm not opposing freedom. If you don't like the state, goverment or the society and it's political system - you are (hopefully)free walk away.

quote:

And torture? I suppose if it were you, you would treat all of the captured murderers, who would cut off your family's heads in front of you and laugh, with kid gloves. These guys are treated infinitely better than they deserve, and if what little abuse they ARE subjected to upsets you, I would suggest that you open your eyes and take a look at the world in which you live. These guys are playing for keeps. If we bind our hands any further than we already have,
we might as well just give the country over to the neo-fascist miltant Muslims now.
Of course, I suspect nothing would make you happier.


Is it any better now? Is it? Observe your leaders, listen the rest of the world and you might note, for your amazement and shock, that neo-fascist militant christian ain't a lot better bet.

I am not siding radical muslims terrorists here, for sure they do wrong. I am merely pointing out that U.S is fighting fire with fire(or oil?).

And, if you would be totally free, no obligations at all, you could kill and harm anything you want. In your pesky post you claim(if they are even your claims. You should make difference between your and other people thoughts by clearly stating which ones are yours and which aren't. And furthermore you should point out who originally stated those thoughts.) that with freedom comes responsibility. Yes, I agree on that. But can you say people are ready for that kind of responsibility? I might use your words again by saying that "I would suggest that you open your eyes and take a look at the world in which you live.".

-v

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First of all, unlike you, I am able to produce posts of a constuctive nature on my own without cutting and pasteing the first stuff I find on a google search. All of the thoughts in the above post are mine. Is that a little intimidating? That someone can make an argument without referring to the crack-brained logic of a liar like Moore? Too bad. Try thinking for yourself for a change. Your "proven wrong" statement exemplifies just how tenuous your argument is. If you are so clearly right, the last thing you should have to do is state it.

The numbers you so conveniently chose are skewed to fit your warped view. I can make all kinds of numbers and stats dance a jig too. But it proves nothing. Where is your EVIDENCE that backs up your ridiculous accusations? I want a per capita list of gun ownership versus crime. The link you posted are worse than useless considering that the country with the highest gun ownership will naturally be the one with the highest accidental death rate due to guns. Is that the best you can come up with?

quote:

I'm growing bored in bringing forth mere facts just for you.

Your arrogance is matched only by your silliness. I am still waiting for your first FACT that proves any of the wild claims you have made. Keep trying, maybe you'll accidentally stumble upon truth sooner or later.

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What are you even talking about Volio? Are people ready for the responsibility of freedom? Who are you to decide? NOBODY can decide if one is "ready" for freedom. It is persons RIGHT to be free. Freedom doesn't mean that I am free to go kill my neighbor. It means I am free to live MY life the way I want, to make the choices for MYSELF, and to KEEP what I earn. Freedom is for ONESELF. You are not "free" to go harm another, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You should understand that by using force against another human being you are violating their freedom and therefore FORFEITING your own.

In capitalism you are free to make the money and to keep it. You are NOT hurting anyone by keeping it. When you talk about the less fortunate, the sick and the bums, that is THEIR responsibility to take care of their lives. Whether they are able to do so or not, does NOT give you nor anyone else the right to FORCE someone else to take care of them. Once you FORCE someone to take care of the less fortunate, ESPECIALLY when those said "less fortunate" have the power to vote for a politician that promisses them more of YOUR money, you therefore take away that persons freedom and make them a SLAVE of every bum, lazy, sick, stupid...criminal...ect...

And do not try to say how it's the price of living in a society. The price of living in a society is ZERO. That's right, ZERO. The price of a BUM living in a society is HUGE, it's just spread out over 15 people supporting that bum. Just by working, you provide a service, or make a product, or invent, or even by "pushing paperwork" you "pay" your price for living in a society. You end up earning money for you labors, and that money is YOURS, minus the taxes for keeping the basic functions of the government functioning (not the social programs, nor the wellfare checks, nor the "medical care", nothing but the most basic functions of the government which are: to ensure YOUR rights stay un-molested. That's IT). It really is that simple.

Do not talk how the system is flawed but is better than .... or how it works....

It works just like it's designed to. It's design is to enslave the productive people. You keep failing to grasp the simplest of points that: No matter WHAT the condition of another human being is, he is NEVER, EVER, entitled to anothers property. You just don't seem to understand what ownership means, and that what you make/have/earn/ is yours to keep. Only a slave does not get to keep the product of his labors. You SHOULD NOT be forced to pay for another persons living, it's a ludicrous concept, it's is exactly the same as the criminal act of being mugged. In both instances your money are taken against your will to go to support another human being. In first instance it's either government jails or your money, in second instance it's a bullet in your chest or your money. In BOTH those cases the money YOU earned ends up in the pocket of another. The fact that the guy that mugged you has 3 sick kids and no food, DOES NOT EXCUSE the act. Just like the fact that government wellfare check going to a single mother with 3 sick kids, does not excuse the act of the government taking your money, in the second case, the government played the muggers part for her.

[ 12-01-2005, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Soback ]

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http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvacci.html

EXCERPT: "A fatal gun accident, particularly when a child is involved, often makes state or national news. This gives the impression that: fatal gun accidents are more prevalent than other fatal accidents, gun accidents are increasing, and civilian gun ownership must be further restricted or regulated.

The reality does not correspond to the perception created by media coverage. Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent.

Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) also fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995. More children die from accidental drownings or burns than from gun accidents. "

(Gun supply statistics are from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, gun accident rates from the National Safety Council).

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http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=120

Excerpt:

"*Firearm accident deaths are at an all-time annual low, nationally and among children, while the U.S. population is at an all-time high. In 2002, there were 762 such deaths nationally, including 60 among children. Today, the odds are more than a million to one against a child in the U.S. dying from a firearm accident.

*The firearm accident death rate is at an all-time annual low, 0.26 per 100,000 population, down 92% since the all-time high in 1904.

*Firearms are involved in 1% of all deaths, and 1% of all deaths among children. Deaths involving firearms have decreased 19% since 1993.

*Firearms are involved in 0.7% of accidental deaths nationally, and in 1% among children. Most accidental deaths involve, or are due to, motor vehicles (41%), poisoning (16%), falls (15%), suffocation (5%), drowning (3%), fires (3%), medical mistakes (2%), environmental factors (1%), and bicycles (1%). Among children: motor vehicles (44%), suffocation (16%), drowning (16%), fires (9%), bicycles (2%), poisoning (2%), falls (2%), environmental factors (1%), and medical mistakes (1%). "

Funny, I don't hear you wailing about what freaks we are for owning cars. Children are 1000% more likely to be killed in or by a car. Try again. Oh yes, your utter rightness is washing in my eye, or whatever it is that you said.

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quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

Funny, I don't hear you wailing about what freaks we are for owning cars. Children are 1000% more likely to be killed in or by a car. Try again. Oh yes, your utter rightness is washing in my eye, or whatever it is that you said.

I use that all time when arguing points. All I usually get is either silence or a bitter retort from vehicle owners because they see it as me threatening their transportation.

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quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

Are you talking Abu Graihb(spelling)? All of the guilty members have been tried and sentenced. That was NOT a U.S. sanctioned operation. It was a couple of young G.I.'s on a power trip lacking proper leadership and supervision.

And if you mean Guantanomo, I have stated before that my U.S. Navy bootcamp (from what I've heard, the easiest of the major miliary branches) was far worse than anything those terrorist thugs being held there were subjected to. Nothing reported there amounted to anything close to torture.

Fair enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

Funny, I don't hear you wailing about what freaks we are for owning cars. Children are 1000% more likely to be killed in or by a car.

Completely right, there should obviously be more restrictions and/or bans on motor vehicles.

On a more serious, it'd be nice if there were safety features on cars concerned with pedestrian accidents.

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quote:

Originally posted by LostInSpace:

quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

Funny, I don't hear you wailing about what freaks we are for owning cars. Children are 1000% more likely to be killed in or by a car. Try again. Oh yes, your utter rightness is washing in my eye, or whatever it is that you said.

I use that all time when arguing points. All I usually get is either silence or a bitter retort from vehicle owners because they see it as me threatening their transportation.


You leave my car alone!!!!!!! (oh wait, I take the bus....nevermind )
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quote:

Completely right, there should obviously be more restrictions and/or bans on motor vehicles.

LOL!! Oh no! I got them started on CAR CONTROL!!!

Seriously though, unlawful gun control is usually a topic that only a select group of individuals would even bother to argue against, seeing as how many people do not own guns, and thus don't really mind if their right to own them slowly evaporates. Change the issue to CARS, however, and suddenly a whole lot more people are suddenly interested. Let the gun grabbers turn into car grabbers, and I think you would see a huge outcry the like of which has not happened in a long time.

Come to think of it, the same is probably true of BEER.

quote:

You leave my car alone!!!!!!! (oh wait, I take the bus....nevermind )


LMAO!

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