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SocialismÆs Trojan Horse


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Please explain.

The way the world currently works, many countries with a completely socialistic healthcare system:

[*]Have cheaper (per capita) health care costs

[*]Said cost is not in addition to taxes

[*]Have no loss in quality; indeed some actually have better services

[*]Have higher life expectancies and lower infant mortality rates

All compared to the US of course.

Granted, many of the countries that fit the above criteria have higher tax rates, but some don't or the difference is negligible.

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ROFL, yeah I know. It's like the whole discussion about the working people paying for everyone else and how it's the same as slavery hasn't even taken place.

AND on top of it. I KNOW people from Canada, and they talk about Canada's medical system with COMPLETE disgust. They teld me stories of how it takes 6 months to 2 YEARS to get treatment for cancer. If you need aditional diagnosis done, they will put you in line and most of the time you end up waiting 8 months. While they have a SPECIAL LINE for select people that get completly different treatment from the rest of the population, the funnies thing is, the rest of the population PAYS for their care too (hey, just like in mother Russia, ROFL, welcome communism). So not only are the leeches riding on the back of taxpayers, forcing them to pay for everything starting from food and housing ending with medical care and retirement, but the select "people in high places, their friends, ect..." get a free ride on taxpayers money too, Socialism is great isn't it, err, I meant to clarify, socialism is great for those who BENEFIT, those who can't take care of themselfs, those who have nothing of value to offer, and those who get rich off of the system.

I interact with a lot of people in my line of work, have been since 20. Most of those people are millionares, some are billionares. I talk, learn from them. Over 80% are conservative, the remainder are in the middle, and only a few are bleeding socialists. Those said liberal socialists fall into two basic catergories, some are politicians that get paid from the government and the ONLY way they can increase their pay is to give more to the poor what they loot from the rest, and the others are the ones that have inherited their family fortune, bussinesses, ect...BUT they haven't worked a day in their life, even at managing their own money, so they have NO IDEA what money is and obviously think that everyone should have some, and won't understand why others don't have it, even to save their life.

The BEST people I've men, and they fall into majority are venture capitalists. Those are awesome. They are smart and intelligent, not to mention work pretty much 24/7. You see, every able bodied man with at least average dexterity can perform manual labor, not every man however, even educated man, can do what those guys do. Venture capitalists are the REASON our country runs, and socialist countries collapse. US fosters conditions for these venture capitalists to thrive and prosper, to invest in ideas that might pay off big or might go bust, to open bussinesses, and to OPERATE those bussineses, because like I said, a monkey can fly a space shuttle once taught to push buttons when they light up, it takes a GENIUS to INVENT AND DESIGN that space shuttle and it takes another GENIUS to conclude that the idea is profitable and INVEST in that space shuttle, if they weren't geniuses, they would end up losing all their investment capital in a blink of an eye.

So, what happens when socialism fosters conditions in which those people decide that their investments and labor is not worth the risk and time spent? They either LEAVE to another country or they TAKE THEIR MONEY and RETIRE, move to mexico and sip margaritas till the end of their days. In BOTH cases, who loses? YOU DO. What's the most important commondity on earth? Time. Before someone invented that automatic milking machine, a manual worker had to sit and milk each cow, that would take time and labor, milk wasn't plentiful and it was expensive. When the inventor introduced that machine, it benefited EVERYONE, starting from the farmer and ending with the consumer. That invention freed up 20minutes per cow, imagine the immense ammount of time saved so that you could devote it to something else. How about the printing press, the clothe weaver, pretty much ANY invention saves you time, or is a better way of doing things. That's why today, you have time to go to school instead of working all day helping your dad at the farm, you can watch tv, instead of helping your mother wash dishes/clothes and then spend half a day ironing them. That's why you have time to spend with your family instead of feeding your horses and cleaning them for the next day of travel. How about the store owner that decided to open up his shop not too far away from your house because he decided to take a risk with his money and labor in hopes that it will pay off, how much time shopping did he save you then? It would be a terrifying day when those people decide that the return will not be worth their investment because of government regulation and taxation, or they plain out retire or quit working as they get tired of all the bs. It happened before, those time were known as the dark ages and lasted almost TWO THOUSAND years. The inventions were lost, the knowledge was lost. To prove it, just go research what technology Rome had, what technology the Greeks had, what were the inventions of Archemidies, Leonardo. Once those people disseared, those who could only do manual labor were reduced to nothing more than manual labor, and had to spend a week just to make themsefs a pair of shoes. You want to live like that again?

Listen to Nomad. The ONLY right thing that came out from him in these forums is when he said what a disaster would happen to our society if even 5% of SKILLED people will not be in the equation. Well, the virus is a maybe for that scenario, however, socialism is A FACT and it's NOW that it's accomplishing the very same thing a virus would, albeit at a little slower pace.

[ 12-17-2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Soback ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

I KNOW people from Canada, and they talk about Canada's medical system with COMPLETE disgust.


Correct, the Canadian healthcare system isn't working as intended. But that doesnÔÇÖt explain other countries, some even more socialistic than Canada.

quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

The BEST people I've men, and they fall into majority are venture capitalists. Those are awesome. They are smart and intelligent, not to mention work pretty much 24/7. You see, every able bodied man with at least average dexterity can perform manual labor, not every man however, even educated man, can do what those guys do. Venture capitalists are the REASON our country runs, and socialist countries collapse. US fosters conditions for these venture capitalists to thrive and prosper, to invest in ideas that might pay off big or might go bust, to open bussinesses, and to OPERATE those bussineses, because like I said, a monkey can fly a space shuttle once taught to push buttons when they light up, it takes a GENIUS to INVENT AND DESIGN that space shuttle and it takes another GENIUS to conclude that the idea is profitable and INVEST in that space shuttle, if they weren't geniuses, they would end up losing all their investment capital in a blink of an eye.


Null argument, there's a lot of things that a lot of people can't do that every country depends on and what you think of them is your opinion (Plus the space shuttle has been decided as a bad idea).

quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

Really long paragraph


You do realise that I am in no way support socialism that is far into the left right? And there many reasons the Roman Empire collapse, I havenÔÇÖt heard of it becoming socialist as being one of them.

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quote:

Originally posted by Aperson:

You do realise that I am in no way support socialism that is far into the left right? And there many reasons the Roman Empire collapse, I havenÔÇÖt heard of it becoming socialist as being one of them.

You haven't been reading history, because that is indeed one of the reasons that the Roman Empire collapsed, it was called bread and circus's, to keep the people happy, they would spend MASSIVE amounts of money on the people, and of course the politicians had all become corrupted.

THe Roman Empire had collapsed internally, long before it collapsed externally.

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You mean nobody had to pay for it? You mean the Cubans that work don't have to pay for those doctors? Really, so the doctors that recieve government paychecks, those same paychecks are not collected through taxes? So now that those Cubans are paying taxes to the government, and the government paying the doctors through those taxes, and those doctors are spending their time, countrys medical supplies and other medical resources to provide medical care for people WHO DO NOT EVEN LIVE IN CUBA.

If I was a Cuban citizen I would be PISSED that I the doctor I AM PAYING is not working to better the life of another Cuban, but is instead working for the presidents publicity stunt. But then again, we do know that people are leaving Cuba EVERY DAY, and ANY WAY they can, haven't you heard of them crowding into a boat and casting off, hoping to make it ANYWHERE but Cuba, it's gotta be pretty bad if one is ready to take his chances starving, drowning or dying of thirst rather than live in Cuba. Kinda like in China, once all the options are up, one would prefer to take his life rather than spend his days like a slave. ROFL.

And Aperson, why don't you learn about Rome before you speak how one that knows history can fit it to his views. You don't even know Bread and Circuses saying, and how Roman parlament was looting the nation to keep the unrests down. Why do you think there were so many rebellions in Roman Empire towards the end of it's days, for kicks and gigles?

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quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

And Aperson, why don't you learn about Rome before you speak how one that knows history can fit it to his views. You don't even know Bread and Circuses saying, and how Roman parlament was looting the nation to keep the unrests down. Why do you think there were so many rebellions in Roman Empire towards the end of it's days, for kicks and gigles?

Like I said, I've heard of many reasons for why Rome fell, and people all-to-often pick the one that suits their agrument.

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quote:

Originally posted by Aperson:

Like I said, I've heard of many reasons for why Rome fell, and people all-to-often pick the one that suits their agrument.

Oh puhlease......

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Ahh yes, we love him because he's gonna give us free stuff....

Nomad, I thought you knew history, I thought that you were at least somewhat intellectual, but all you are is another utopian dreamer, that can't see the train coming to the break in the tracks. Instead of trying to stop the train, you seem to want to accelerate it, and celebrate it as well.

Amazing, history is a wonderful teacher, it's too bad no one LISTENS to it.

Socialism is a FAILED system, it ALWAYS fails, and ALWAYS destroy the economy of those that attempt it, and it will do the same here, and anywhere else that it is tried.

NO country can afford it, and no country ever has...

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quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

Sorry bud, you should awake and smell the coffee from times to times.

All these South-American countries who are lately falling like dominoes in socialist systems were ruled by conservatives for years, and followed World Bank and IMF policies with the sole result to see their economy ruined, most of their annual income used for the service of their debts, and the gap between a few rich and a mass of poors widened.

Well duh, I would NEVER implement world bank policies or IMF policies, they're stupid and ignorant. Anyone that would listen to those 2 idiotic organizations doesn't have a clue how an economy runs.

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Soback: The correlation you made in your preceeding posts about money and freedom can be applied easily to freedom and power aswell.

When you are free to do something, it also means that you have the power to do something of your liking. Other way around: when you have power, you are free to do anything within the influence of that power.

You can put equal(=) between any of those words(money, power and freedom) and still find correlations between every single combination.

-v

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I guess you convinently missed the point that having money doesn't mean having power to FORCE someones hand. While having POWER means you CAN force someone.

Hey, I posted a long paragraph, with examples and explanations. It was your job to read and comprehend it. I can't digest it for you, you have to do that on your own.

I'll tell you again. Money doesn't equal power. It equals freedom. For examples as to why, it's all in my earlier post. Also, don't forget, you live in a country where people are taught from day one, told directly and indirectly, that money is power and therefore is evil, and it's best that only few select have it, because they know how to use it responsibly to protect you from evil. I already explained why they want you to think that way, that once the money = power link is made, it's not hard to give you examples how power is evil as those who have it can FORCE people. Money CAN NOT FORCE people, if you offer someone A BILLION dollars they WILL NOT cut off their head, as then they would have no use for that billion dollars. Of course you can hire people to do criminal acts, and force others, but you can also do that without money. Money is freedom because like it was explained in previous posts, it's work in stored format. The most important commodity it can buy you is time, time you don't have to spend to build a house (have someone do that work for you), grocery shopping, any kind of labor or product, so that you are FREE to pursue whatever it is you want. Could you be free to do all those things without money, sure, if you lived for 1000 years, you could build your own house, do every single chore yourself, and then whatever time you had left over, you could pursue what you actually wanted.

Do you understand now that money is freedom instead of power? Do you understand that money can not force someone to act against their will? Do you understand that money can BUY you power, but it does not EQUAL power, just like money can buy you a house, but it does not equal a house, aftera all, if a person absolutly does not want to sell his house, no ammount of money will get you that home. The ONLY reason why you are taught that money is power, is to make the evil link, so that you could be content and not question why only the politicians in a socialist society have money, YOUR money, and why they are the ones who get to have their dachas (private country homes), and why they are the ones who get to drive their Benzes, all bought with YOUR money.

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Force, physical, intimidation, anything were you FORCE someone AGAINST their free will.

Don't confuse power with influence. People can trade favors, like you do something now, and I do something later, it benefits both parties. It's when you do something for me, or I will black list you and nobody will deal with you that is force. You get the idea, when you co-erce, by whichever means, force someone to do something they do not want to do.

Like I said, with money you can of course hire thugs to do your bidding, but you can also be a thug and call on your friends to do the same thing. Money doesn't automatically give you power, however it automatically gives you freedom, it buys you time to pursue your interests. It frees you up from tasks that you can pay someone else to do for you, and frees up your time for something else. Kinda like the man that invented central heating/conditioning. Before you would have to go outside, gather wood, chop it up, stock the fireplace, light a fire and keep stocking it. That saved you HOURS, the only thing you need is money to pay for equipment (heater) and supplies (gas). Without money you would still be collecting wood. You see how that mans invention + your money bought you freedom from those tasks. In return, another man invented a car. And that bought you and the man who invented a gas heater, time. Now you can go to the store and come back in 20 minutes as opposed to 3 hours. All they asked in return is money from you, for their mental labors, but what they got is way more than that, they bought themselfs TIME so that they could pursue other interests that are worthwile, like inventing more things. That money didn't make them powerfull, didn't do anything but gotten them FREEDOM.

It's the same people that say money is evil that say money is power. Let me ask you, if money is power, and power can be evil, that means money is evil. That's why you hear sayings like, money is the root of all evil. Why then Indians were skinning each others heads, and hacking neighboring tribes to pieces if they didn't even have a concept of money. Why were African tribes constantly warring with each other, they had no concept of money either. It makes as much sence as when, mostly the same people, say things like guns kill people. Guns kill people, just like money is the root of all evil. People kill people, bad people kill people, just like bad people are the root of all evil, NOT money. You don't need money to be evil, as a matter of fact, a lot of evil is done by people who do not have ANY money. Like thugs who rob you to get money, or just because. Or like leeches that rob you to feed themselfs, or rather have the government rob you for them.

However, didn't the the inventor who recieved money for his invention, used that money to buy food, to buy a home, to buy necessities and luxuries, and most importantly time free from labor so that he could concentrate and spend that time to pursue other inventions? Didn't the industialist that build a factory that makes cars, use that money to buy himself time free from mundane labor (hire others for it), so that he could better his factory, build new ones and better his product (don't forget, the more he builds, the more people get to WORK for him, the more people work, the better their life becomes). None of those men are powerfull. If they met you on the street, you wouldn't even know who they are. All of them are free in their lives. They can pick up and go to Hawaii or Caribean at moments wish, they are FREE to do that, you are not. Why, because they have money to BUY that FREEDOM, you do not. And if they WORK on their bussinesses, they will continue having money (a LOT of people that inherit their fortune and don't spend time managing it themselfs, LOSE it), if you continue to allow others to take money that YOU earn, you are therefore allowing them to take YOUR FREEDOM away from you, and you continue allowing others to subjugate you like that, to leech off of you, off of your labor, if you continue letting yourself be a slave that works for another, you will NEVER be FREE.

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Eh? If you can hire thugs to coercer someone when you normally can't, that's power. ItÔÇÖs just a different way of getting power than other forms (such as knowing the thugs or using force of personality to convince them to do so). That doesnÔÇÖt make it not power. For example, a company could "suggest" another company that they merge or they will use their economic power to bankrupt them. However, most of the time money being power isn't as direct, such as bribing a government official so that they mire someone in red tape or hiring goons to break someoneÔÇÖs leg (for some loose morals examples). Besides, with your logic, a general doesnÔÇÖt have any power because the troops could choose to desert him at any time.

Someone who owns several factories isn't powerful? Ever hear of economic power?

Note: The fact that power can be evil dosn't automaticly make it evil.

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