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Government Harassment and Intimidation?


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[CNN] LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Online gaming company BETonSPORTS, whose chief executive has been detained in the United States, said on Tuesday it faced a case over taking sports bets there.

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[Yahoo] FORT WORTH, Texas - One day after federal officials announced indictments of operators of an offshore Internet gambling site, there were signs of how difficult it will be to prosecute the case.

A federal judge on Monday issued an order barring BetOnSports PLC from taking bets by U.S. residents. But on Tuesday the site appeared to be operating normally, offering bets on Major League baseball and season-opening college football games.

That's pretty much the way I'm seeing this. The government is throwing a titty fit because they ain't seeing part of $$$ action. If they were so concerned about gambling, they'd stop the lottery.

Also, the laws made in this country don't apply to foriegn countries the last I was aware of unless they made and international law with other countries which they didn't do. If they want to stop this, go after the people doing the gambling in this country and not harass foriegn operators of gambling web sites where it is legal in that country to do so. Government extortion is all I'm seeing here and made another suspect law to do it too.

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I don't blame the government for trying to restrict gambling in this manner. You are right - they want some of the spoils. I see nothing wrong with that. I find that a lot of people see the government with an odd disconnect (perhaps deserved) but you must remember that every gambling dollar going overseas is a dollar that could have stayed here therefore providing either tax-relief or additional spending without additional taxing. Either way, the taxpayer wins.

Remember: government money is really your money. Isn't it nice when it doesn't come from you?

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Also, the laws made in this country don't apply to foriegn countries the last I was aware of unless they made and international law with other countries which they didn't do.

Huh? Every country has the right to dictate it's own international trade laws. The grey area here is the Internet and who's responsible for our trade laws being broken.

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quote:

Originally posted by aramike:

1: I don't blame the government for trying to restrict gambling in this manner. You are right - they want some of the spoils. I see nothing wrong with that.

2: I find that a lot of people see the government with an odd disconnect (perhaps deserved)

3: but you must remember that every gambling dollar going overseas is a dollar that could have stayed here therefore providing either tax-relief or additional spending without additional taxing. Either way, the taxpayer wins.

4: Remember: government money is really your money. Isn't it nice when it doesn't come from you?

5:Huh? Every country has the right to dictate it's own international trade laws. The grey area here is the Internet and who's responsible for our trade laws being broken.


1: I find everything wrong with it.

2: Trust me. I have no disconnect when it comes to the government and I scrutinize everthing they do. If one thinks that the government is strickly a benign entity, one is just deluding themselves.

3: The argument about that monies are going overseas and staying there is just rediculous. It will eventually come back here in one form or another. So, I don't buy that argument in any way shape or form. This is all about control and money and how much they can grab of the money and control the operations. It's just as simple as that and it's being couched in the fear mongering that we'd never see that money again. If you don't think their are abuses with the state run lotteries, I suggest you search around and if you think that people aren't suffering from lottery addiction, again search around. Sure they make available gambler's hotlines but they count on those of types of people just as a privately owned gambling joint would.

4: Yes it is but not in the manner that they are going about getting it. If that tax money is mine, as you suggest, then I should be able to demand my cigarette taxes I've paid so far.

5: Exactly my point. You don't pass quick laws and run rough shod on another country's legal citizen who is obeying his countries laws and is running a legal business in his country just because you don't like it. You first go the countries in question and work out an agreement to shut these places down and if they don't want to (remember those countries make taxes off of them) you don't go around making dubious laws and grab up targets when they step on your soil for a second and give them the royal shake down and scare. This just smacks of the old mafia extortion tactics. Mafioso goes into a bar lays down his demands if they are not met he gives the guy a scare and a rough up. No my friend, this is not the way to run a government even if it's to my benefit. There is right and wrong and this is just wrong.

Ask yourself this: How much tax payer money is going to spent on this "difficult to prosecute case"?

Monies that could be spent on much more important pressing needs than for the government to maintain it's monopoly on gambling that is just as much rife with abuse as private gambling.

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Oh snap, it's on...

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1: I find everything wrong with it.

Restricting trade? You find everything wrong with restricting unregulated trade?

Maybe you'd be happier living under UN rule than US law then.

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2: Trust me. I have no disconnect when it comes to the government and I scrutinize everthing they do. If one thinks that the government is strickly a benign entity, one is just deluding themselves.
Yes you do. You classify the government as "government" and citizens as a separate entity, as YOU JUST SAID.

Our government, however, is made up of citizens.

Don't get me wrong - I agree that the government should face public scrutiny. As should anything public. That is the basis of representative republic. But, I also see the government as me as well as "the government".

3: The argument about that monies are going overseas and staying there is just rediculous.

Okay, do me a favor from now on: please don't change my arguments to fit what you WANT to say. I did NOT say that money is going overseas "and staying there." So please don't imply that I've made a "ridiculous" argument, when in fact, I did NOT.

However, I COULD have made a similar argument and I would have been right...

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It will eventually come back here in one form or another.

That is the most absurd thing I have ever read in my entire life as a student of economics. Not all money that goes overseas returns here in "one for or another." Not even a large percentage of it returns here. That is why the US is running a TRADE DEFICIT of just about $64 BILLION DOLLARS. A trade deficit isn't always necessarily bad for the economy so long as it is in regulated goods that can be either tariffed or taxed or both, because revenues can be generated to help offset the imbalance.

We are, however, talking about an unregulated trade in which NO revenues are generated. Therefore literally NONE of that money is actually returned to our economy.

Dude, seriously, that was a really poor argument from an economic standpoint. The numbers simply don't hold weight.

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So, I don't buy that argument in any way shape or form.

This is like the "smoking doesn't cause cancer" thing again, isn't it? I don't debate "black helicopters".

You don't have to buy into any argument. Doesn't mean the argument is wrong.

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This is all about control and money and how much they can grab of the money and control the operations.

No, it's about regulating trade within our borders.

Seriously, do you want to be controlled by the United Nations?

Am I the LAST person here to believe that a nation has sovereignty over its own trade laws and that NO ONE from ANY nation should be able to "willy-nilly" violate those trade laws?

Funny how you're taking the internationalist view on this... I thought you believed in a nation's right to govern itself.

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It's just as simple as that and it's being couched in the fear mongering that we'd never see that money again.

$64 BILLION TRADE DEFICIT. That isn't "fear mongering". That is the argument of he who is actually INFORMED and understands the economy and who does NOT believe in rampant internationalism.

That fact that you continuously claim that the money will be somehow magically "returned" here shows that you really don't understand international economics.

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If you don't think their are abuses with the state run lotteries, I suggest you search around and if you think that people aren't suffering from lottery addiction, again search around.

Why do you INSIST upon creating arguments, IMPLYING that they are mine, and then arguing against them? I said NOTHING of the sort.

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Sure they make available gambler's hotlines but they count on those of types of people just as a privately owned gambling joint would.

Great. So we have to pay for another government service while we're not supposed to be able to tax the root cause of needing the service, in your opinion.

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Yes it is but not in the manner that they are going about getting it. If that tax money is mine, as you suggest, then I should be able to demand my cigarette taxes I've paid so far.

Then I should be able to demand the Medicare money I HAVE PAID to help smokers be more comfortable when they die of cancer...

We could both probably come up with arguments like that for hours but they are really nothing more than bland rhetoric. I used to smoke, by the way...

Why do smokers pay taxes on their product? Ummm, it is a FACT that the country has to pay FAR MORE in healthcare costs for smokers than non-smokers. 6 times as much. You can try to say that "it really isn't smoking" and imply that those stats are all just coincidence, but again, I'm not into "black helicopter" theories.

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5: Exactly my point.

No, MY point. You said, "Also, the laws made in this country don't apply to foriegn countries..."

And I was explaining that, YES THEY DO. If a nation wants to do business with us they MUST respect our trade laws.

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You don't pass quick laws and run rough shod on another country's legal citizen who is obeying his countries laws and is running a legal business in his country just because you don't like it.

So if, say, some South American dictator found a loophole in our laws that allowed him to sell guns here legally, we can't pass a law to stop him from doing so because it is legal IN HIS COUNTRY? ARE YOU INSANE?

I believe in the US making its OWN laws, thank you.

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You first go the countries in question and work out an agreement to shut these places down and if they don't want to (remember those countries make taxes off of them) you don't go around making dubious laws and grab up targets when they step on your soil for a second and give them the royal shake down and scare.

Right. We should use the UN too, huh? Maybe we should switch to the Euro...

Since when can a government not govern trade within its own borders?

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This just smacks of the old mafia extortion tactics. Mafioso goes into a bar lays down his demands if they are not met he gives the guy a scare and a rough up. No my friend, this is not the way to run a government even if it's to my benefit. There is right and wrong and this is just wrong.

No, YOU are wrong.

This reminds me of the Supreme Court using international law as a basis to "interpret" OUR CONSTITUTION regarding capital punishment. You've pretty much said that WE have to respect OTHER nations' trade laws but they don't have to respect OURS! That is, by FAR, the most ludicrous thing I have EVER heard from someone who's not a WAY-out-there lefty.

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Ask yourself this: How much tax payer money is going to spent on this "difficult to prosecute case"?

That is a completely different issue, and we may even agree on it.

Which is why, however, I believe the law should be changed to make it a "not-so-difficult-to-prosecute" case in the future. Foreign nations should respect not only our laws, but the SPIRIT of our laws as well. Meaning, if they know we have restrictive gambling laws, they shouldn't exploit loopholes simply because the language isn't as modern as it should be.

If this wasn't gambling I'd bet you'd have a REAL problem with it.

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Monies that could be spent on much more important pressing needs than for the government to maintain it's monopoly on gambling that is just as much rife with abuse as private gambling.

Dude, the government has NO WHERE NEAR a "monopoly" on gambling. Research this a little more, please. Heck, that issue is on the front burner here in Wisconsin due to the Potowatami tribe getting a massive sweetheart deal from the state.

To sum up, I think you should rethink your position. I think you're taking the private company's side simply because it is a private company and the issue is gambling. Good - so you believe in capitalism and freedom. SO DO I. But, I also believe in a nation's right to govern itself and it's trade.

I have NO PROBLEM with gambling.

I have NO PROBLEM with private companies making money.

I have a HUGE problem with foreign private companies avoiding our trade laws with legal loopholes and profiting off of the American people while not having the pay the requisite fees to do so...

Funny how Microsoft (an American company) is facing a massive fine in Europe for violating THEIR trade laws but you find it inappropriate for the US to prosecute on similar basis'.

I highly doubt you agree with that. Again, I think you need to rethink your position and delve a bit deeper into the problem here. Judging by your past positions, I am no less than SHOCKED that you're taking the position you're taking.

[ 07-19-2006, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: aramike ]

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