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What's in YOUR Flu shot?

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No, that's not sad. What socialists allow their government to do to them is their bussiness.

The REAL sad part is that the socialists in US are trying to, and in some cases already have, made it MANDATORY to get those shots. First they take our money by force, without our consent, now they are dictating what goes into our bodies, also by force, without our consent.

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quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

The REAL sad part is that the socialists in US are trying to, and in some cases already have, made it MANDATORY to get those shots.

Sometimes Americans boggle the mind.

But the question is: how much mercury in the flu shot?

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We're embalmed already,from what we eat, so what's with all the hubub?

I'm sure all of us have been treated with Merthiolate on numerous occasions as children.

BAM! Right into an open wound. Burn baby burn.

I ain't dead yet.

Too many peeps put heir faith in modern medicine rather than allowing their Homo Sapien robot the task of eliminating contagions.

As Jag would say, "Survival of the fittest"

Contagions have been the Gene pool cleaners for millennia. The CDC can keep their flu shots. I'll take my chances with my own immune system.

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Current flu vaccines didn't protect against H5N1 I thought. Except the one developed by that one (swedeish?) company, but it can't be produced fast enough.

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So, no insults Nomad? Really?

As far as you forcing others to take vacines, it just shows the liberal mindset of control over others, of treating people like stock animals, like they have no mind of their own, and shouldn't be allowed to make their own choices.

You should know, that those who get vacinated will be IN NO DANGER from those who do not get vacinated and MAYBE get sick. Not to mention how HIGHLY INEFECTIVE vacines are against easily mutatable viruses such as flu. Who are you to decide what I do with my body? Who are you to decide how I raise my kids?

As far as that great epidemic you are talking about. Just to let you know my own opinion. I wouldn't mind it too much. Just like after the great plague, there were people that were immune to the virus and survived. Our society shed the leeches, and when people migrated, those who survived were in a great position to created a clean society of the strong, the self sufficient, the productive, they finally were free and didn't have to feed and support all the "disadvantaged". It's evolution at it's best.

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Eh, the only problem with not vacinating some people is that it makes it impossible to "destroy" the virus (which, by the way, would increase the chance of the virus mutating and affecting thoses immunized). Granted, there probably won't be enough vaccinations for developed countries, let alone the whole world...

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H5N1 is the bird flu, if I remember correctly, and the chances of it mutating to human to human contraction is about as likely as new comet being discovered on a collision course with earth.

About 1 in a billion or more.....

The brd flu scare is just that, a scare tactic, and it's just as much nonsense as man is causing global warming.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

H5N1 is the bird flu, if I remember correctly, and the chances of it mutating to human to human contraction is about as likely as new comet being discovered on a collision course with earth.

About 1 in a billion or more.....

The brd flu scare is just that, a scare tactic, and it's just as much nonsense as man is causing global warming.

You do realise that the last major pandemic (1918) was the result of a virus jumping from one species to another. You also realise that this requires relatively little change to the virus (and the H5N1 virus already has some of the mutations...)

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/dn8103

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quote:

Originally posted by Aperson:

You do realise that the last major pandemic (1918) was the result of a virus jumping from one species to another. You also realise that this requires relatively little change to the virus (and the H5N1 virus already has some of the mutations...)


I've talked to a Microbiologist about this very thing, and the answer he gave, since he WORKS with these SAME virus's was the above.

The discovery of a NEW comet, and it hitting the earth, were JUST as likely as this virus mutating into a danger to humans, on a human to human basis.

Oh, and Nomad....

In these times, Eli Lilly and Thimerosal

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This Microbiologist has 3 patents, and has published 3 papers regarding HN51 there Nomad, he is one of the few people that have actually studied the virus at a genetic level.

So, put that in your pipe and smoke it.....

The chances of the HN51 virus mutating to a human to human strain are nil to none....

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I was going to chime in here, but due to the level of contentiousness, I'll refrain.

I will say that while Nomad's information is mostly spot on, it does not address the real issue here.

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Guess what Nomad. The same societal melt down WILL occur eventually, just like it HAS occured before, time after time. If it doesn't occur because of a virus, it will occur because of socialism. Just like you said, once you take even 5 or 10 percent of skilled people out of society, the whole structure will crumble. What do you think happened in Russia? Exactly that, the skilled professors, inventors, top people you would call executives this day, they ALL refused to work, LOL, because the return on their labor wasn't worth it, A LOT of them immigrated to Europe and America. What do you think will happen as you continue taxing the skilled people of today. Eventually, just like it says in the Declaration of Independence, "accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. ", which means that the day will come when the price for refusing to work will be the same as working. The more skilled people wake up and understand their value, the more dangerous to Socialism they become, LOL, so it's only a matter of time, as you can not have an ignorant intelligent person.

By the way, what's the matter Nomad, you seem to really take it personaly, you know, the whole 5 to 10% of SKILLED people taken out of society. Worrying about the survival of the leeches? As you know they would be the FIRST ones to go once tough gets going.

Oh and as far as that virus mutating, guess what, it's like playing the lotto. Vaccinations DO NOT HELP. Even if you design a vaccine agains one strain, as soon as it mutates, that vaccine becomes USELESS, and even if you could design the new vaccine within a week (which is impossible), and even if you could make enough for everyone in the whole world within a month (which is impossible too), not only is one month and one week more than enough time for the virus to mutate again, but YOU CAN NOT pop toxic vacines into people month after month, that alone would kill them. So just like the black plague, so is every disease, a part of evolution.

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I will say again, the chances of the bird flu virus mutating to a human to human virus is NIL.

It COULD happen, but unlikely, and there are THOUSANDS of microbiologists working on this virus, along with many others.

Too bad you haven't got a clue of what you are talking about, but you do talk a good game, too bad it's a bluff...

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I'll just have my doctor write me a script for Tamiflu, That is, if I come down with the Flu. They can keep the Flu shot cocktail.

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Nomad:

So are you saying that for the good of society, an individual should lose the right to choose what he or she puts in his or her own body? I agree that the mercury would probably be harmless to most people, but it WOULD be harmful to some. Sounds very "big brother" to me.

I maintain the right to choose what gets put into me, and I choose no flu shot.

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

I maintain the right to choose what gets put into me, and I choose no flu shot.


exactly. and from what im seeing theres not enough evidence to convince me to get one...

heres a Q&A bit from the BBC news health site.

some snippets:

quote:

Q: Can avian flu be passed from person to person?

There are indications that it can,
although so far not in the form which could fuel a pandemic.

A case in Thailand indicated the
probable
transmission of the virus from a girl who had the disease to her mother, who also died.

The girl's aunt, who was also infected, survived the virus.

UK virology expert Professor John Oxford said these cases indicated the basic virus could be passed between humans, and predicted similar small clusters of cases would be seen again.

It is not the only instance where it has been thought bird flu has been passed between humans.

In 2004, two sisters died in Vietnam after possibly contracting bird flu from their brother who had died from an unidentified respiratory illness.

In a similar case in Hong Kong in 1997, a doctor possibly caught the disease from a patient with the H5N1 virus - but it was never conclusively proved.

quote:

Q: How do humans catch bird flu?

Bird flu was thought only to infect birds until the first human cases were seen in Hong Kong in 1997.

Humans catch the disease through close contact with live infected birds.

Birds excrete the virus in their faeces, which dry and become pulverised, and are then inhaled.

Symptoms are similar to other types of flu - fever, malaise, sore throats and coughs. People can also develop conjunctivitis.

Researchers are now concerned because scientists studying a case in Vietnam found the virus can affect all parts of the body, not just the lungs.

This could mean that many illnesses, and even deaths, thought to have been caused by something else, may have been due to the bird flu virus.

quote:

Q: How many people have been affected?

As of 20 October, 2005, there had been 118 confirmed cases of avian flu in humans in Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand and Cambodia, leading to 61 deaths.

In comparison, Sars has killed around 800 people worldwide and infected at least 8,400 since it first emerged in November 2002.

to me, might be's could be's and possibly's, arent enough to get my drawers in a knot. and the stuff about the h5n1 "possibly" being passed from human to human hasnt been confirmed... although ANYTHING is possible.

like i said... not enough evidence for me

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quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

Nomad:

So are you saying that for the good of society, an individual should lose the right to choose what he or she puts in his or her own body? I agree that the mercury would probably be harmless to most people, but it WOULD be harmful to some. Sounds very "big brother" to me.

I maintain the right to choose what gets put into me, and I choose no flu shot.

Vaccinating the majority is fine; it just becomes a problem when a significant number of people don't get vaccinated (whether by choice or otherwise). That and an individualÔÇÖs actions that could negatively affect the majority is wrong (such as the idjits who ignored the quarantine when SARS was floating around).

And mercury is harmful to pretty much everyone if it exceeds a limit (granted, this limit changes with the individual).

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What danger to society would that be Nomad? Because you know, a lot of people went to Syberia because they were a danger to society. You sound JUST LIKE STALIN, and he sounded JUST LIKE HITLER.

Have you missed my post about how even if you could make vacinations for everyone, as soon as that virus mutates, those vacinations are USELESS, and even if they could make a new vacine for the new virus in thime (which they can't), and even if they could manufacture the new vacine for everyone (which they also can't), it would be more than enough time for the virus to mutate again to start the chasing cycle all over again. I thought you believe in evolution, then why are you trying to stop it?

The rights of society ends when it infringes on my rights. My rights to freedom, my rights to my property, and my rights to pursuit of happiness without violating anyone elses.

Oh, and if the Spanish flew killed 20 to 40 million people, but had a lethality rate of 5%, why don't you do the math and say how many people were infected. The big number of 20 million means NOTHING when you realize the rate of infection. Don't try to confuse some who might be easily impressed by numbers with words millions attached to them, God knows we have enough of panicky "sky is falling because illegals are dying from thirst crossing the desert, so install water fountains" types here.

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Nomad: Any mercury, indeed any heavy metal*, as too high (or in some cases, too low) concentrations in a person can cause sickness or death.

Soback: If vaccines are so useless, explain how they managed to virtually eliminate smallpox and greatly reduced the frequency of a host of other diseases. Also evolution is a very slow process, especially in these cases and given the lifespan of a human, more so given the fact that viruses or bacteria mutate much faster than a human ever will (helped in part due to its lack of error correction or its ability to conjugate respectively). So for that to work, the death toll will be rather high.

Also, a person's rights generally end when it infringes on the well being of another individual (which would be applicable in a hypothetical flu pandemic).

*Not to be confused with music of the same name.

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Guest Grayfox

errr of course its going to have a high death rate at first, because not that many people have been infected with it. you get 2 people that have the bird flu, 1 dies you have a 50 percent death rate. gimme a break. and look at the places where its hitting the most, SE asia and china... some of the most densly populated and dirtiest places in the world. but i forget youre a microbiologist right? wouldnt surprise me...

This sums it up.

quote:

"The lack of sustained human-to-human transmission suggests that this AH5N1 avian virus does not currently have the capacity to cause a human pandemic"

While they do go on to say the virus could mutate with the influenza A virus and has the potential to acquire the means for rapid human to human transmission, it does NOT have this ability now.
All the preparation and fear being created in the media is about a theoretical speculation.

ah5n1... is THAT the strain your all knowing worshipfullness was referring to? or did it change now? get out the magic 8 ball and see what it says.

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quote:

Originally posted by Grayfox:

ah5n1... is THAT the strain your all knowing worshipfullness was referring to? or did it change now? get out the magic 8 ball and see what it says.

And I will just repeat an earlier post....

quote:

H5N1 is the bird flu, if I remember correctly, and the chances of it mutating to human to human contraction is about as likely as new comet being discovered on a collision course with earth.

About 1 in a billion or more.....

The bird flu scare is just that, a scare tactic, and it's just as much nonsense as man is causing global warming.


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quote:

Originally posted by nomad:

Grayfox:

You make reference to the original H5N1 virus. I refer to an H5N1 strain with human influenza contagious properties. These are two completely different discussions.

They are NOT 2 different discussions, because the ORIGINAL H5N1 virus is the ONLY one that exists, Your "nightmare" virus, does NOT exist, and probably NEVER will, and if it ever does, it will NOT be in our lifetimes.

There has NEVER, and I mean NEVER been a avian flu virus that has passed the species barrier directly to human to human transmission, HAS NEVER happened, EVER!!!

So the likeyhood of the H5N1 virus Mutating into some Human to human transmissable form, and killing 50 % of the population is science fiction at it's worst. It will NOT happen, the chances of it occurring are SO astronomical, that it isn't even worth discussing such a silly thought.

H5N1 mutating into human to human transmissible form, NOT in our lifetimes, not my childrens, nor my childrens children, etc, etc, ad NAUSEUM!!!

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Guest Grayfox

quote:

humans, H5N1 has caused the largest number of cases of severe disease and death in humans. Unlike normal seasonal influenza, where infection causes only mild respiratory symptoms in most people, the disease caused by H5N1 follows an unusually aggressive clinical course, with rapid deterioration and high fatality. Primary viral pneumonia and multi-organ failure are common. In the present outbreak, more than half of those infected with the virus have died. Most cases have occurred in previously healthy children and young adults.

they make it sound like millions when the actual toll since 2003 is a little over 70. and even thats sketchy since some of the fatalities are from "unkown causes". thats what im talking about. they hype this up so much people like you tend to get their panties all in a wad.

and i guess that the british news service isnt a reliable source now? they get their info from the WHO. since when did it turn into a supermarket tabloid overnight? did i miss that? please gimme a break.

here is a "professional source" for you...

quote:

In 1997, a child in Hong Kong died not of human flu but of bird flu, an avian influenza strain known to virologists as H5N1. Since then H5N1 has spread inexorably throughout Southeast Asia's bird population. It is a big problem for the poultry industry.
So far it is only a small problem for human health.
As of late June, around a hundred people were believed to have caught H5N1 directly from birds. A couple of people are thought to have caught it from other people. But more than half of the confirmed cases have died. And a high percentage of the dead were young and otherwise healthy.

but i guess it might not be professional enough for you dr. nomad...

[ 12-19-2005, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

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Guest Grayfox

note the above "a couple of people are thought to have caught it from other people" theyre not even sure.

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