Drugs (the illegal stuff)

[Guest Apollyon]

Here's a question for you. What is your point of view on illegal drugs?

I watched the movie Traffic a week or two ago and it made me think about things quite a bit. It's a very good movie by the way.

I used to think that drugs were not that bad. I personally would have never used drugs, and I don't think I'll change my mind on that, but I had no problem with drugs becoming legal. In fact I think it would help a lot of problems. Legalizing drugs would entail (I hope) government restrictions about the quality and potency that would help a lot of people with the whole over dosing thing. It would also help clean up corruption and the dependancy of some South American countries on the drug trade (see Columbia). I also am under the impression from my many friends who I know that do drugs that a major reason they continue doing it after the first time is that it is rebellious/illegal (exciting because of thos reasons). I also believe that I would be capable of bringing my children up properly so that they would see that drugs are not an answer to any type of question (and that includes both cigarettes (sp?) and alchohol).

But Traffic made me realize that the problems it creates might be just as bad as the good that it does. Cocaine especially is a very very addictive substance. I've never really had to contend with an addiction of any kind so I really don't know what it's like (unless you count washing my hands, but that's completely different ). Being so addicted to something that I would destroy my entire life for it is just too exccessive for me to comprehend.

So what do you think? Drug legalization: Yay or Nay?

[Kush]

I'm at the point where I think everything should be legalized and controled by the state.

I don't do drugs, and It's just an opinion, and I don't expect it to happen, but I'd rather the state take control than allow massive criminal organizations to make literally billions of dollars a year.

Let the flames begin!

[Guest Shingen]

It depends on which drugs you wanted to legalize and why you wanted them legal. I would assume that most abused drugs are legal prescription drugs and not illegal controled substances. But the reason certain drug are illegal have very little to do with how 'harmful' they are...

[aramike]

Narcotics should ENEVER be legalized. Sure, the government would exhibit some control over concentrations and potency, but at what point do people begin to want more? When THAT happens, the illegal dealers are right back in action. Also, legalizing it makes it easier to obtain and subsequently, you risk having a chemically-dependant society. Further, how would the government control the DOSAGE of illegal drugs? Let's say some guy buys crack at one store, then goes on to purchase more at another store. An OD would be just as probable of a circumstance.

Another thing to note is that regardless of legality, those drugs would remain very expensive - even more so with the inevitable taxation. So, underground dealers would STILL have an outlet. Further, FIREARMS are legal, but there remains a black market in that trade.

I just don't think it would ever be appropriate.

On another note, I really wouldn't have a problem with pot being legalized because its effects are less than alcohol. However, it should be illegal to use it anywhere OUTSIDE of a person's home - and penalties should be VERY stiff and swift.

Personally, I DESPISE drug users (even those who don't know when they've had enough alcohol). To me, they are a drag on society. How ridiculous is it that some people believe that foreign chemicals are the answer to their problems?

[aramike]

quote:

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It depends on which drugs you wanted to legalize and why you wanted them legal. I would assume that most abused drugs are legal prescription drugs and not illegal controled substances. But the reason certain drug are illegal have very little to do with how 'harmful' they are...

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Absolutely not. The most often abused drugs are illegal narcotics and depressants.

However, there is a high rate of prescription misuse, but it is nowhere near illegal narcotics. Simply put, prescription drugs have less effect and are a bit more difficult to come by.

[Guest]

In all honesty, I am for legalizing ALL drugs, and then taxing it to death, just like cigarettes.

If someone overdoses and dies, so what? Darwin at work, that's the problem in this society we protect people from cradle to grave so much that the dumb ones don't get a chance to kill themselves off, so that their genes disapear from the gene pool. They just keep on procreating and it just gets worse.

I say quit protecting people from themselves, it's none of the governments business anyway, when it affects me directly is when it becomes a problem, so make it illegal to do in public or drive under the influence etc. Just like Alchohol.

I say let the doughheads kill themselves off, we'd be better off in the longrun!!

Legalize ALL drugs!!

[Guest Shingen]

Aramike wrote:

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Also, legalizing it makes it easier to obtain and subsequently, you risk having a chemically-dependant society.

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This is ludichrist(?). We are already a chemically-dependant society, and obtaining 'drugs' is relativily simple and easy for most 'drug-users'. They can even be obtained within the prison-system by the very guards that are supposed to be 'controlling' them. Legal or illegal will neither make us a less chemically-dependant society nor make 'drugs' less available.

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Absolutely not. The most often abused drugs are illegal narcotics and depressants.

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since most drug-users are using prescription medications, then that would lead me to believe that prescriptions drugs are being more abused (given human nature), and what makes you think that narcotics and illegal 'drug-users' are abusing those drugs any more or less the legal drug users?

I think that illegalization has more to do with the 'pyschotic' effects of certain drugs, then it's harmfulness to the human-body.

Jaguar wrote:

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If someone overdoses and dies, so what? Darwin at work, that's the problem in this society we protect people from cradle to grave so much that the dumb ones don't get a chance to kill themselves off, so that their genes disapear from the gene pool. They just keep on procreating and it just gets worse.

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I could make the same arguement about chronically unemployed/homeless people...

quote:

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I say quit protecting people from themselves, it's none of the governments business anyway, when it affects me directly is when it becomes a problem, so make it illegal to do in public or drive under the influence etc. Just like Alchohol.

I say let the doughheads kill themselves off, we'd be better off in the longrun!!

Legalize ALL drugs!!

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I agree and I disagree, but then my opinions won't change the price of tea in china.

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Shingen ]

[Tekrebel]

Legalize the damn stuff, too many people have died in this War on Drugs. And the goverment might even make some bucks out of it by taxing it. The kids are better off smoking a big fatty than killing themselves in the long run with tar and cyanide contained in the cigarettes. To me, smoking a joint in the park is no different than going in a bar, getting drunk on beer.

As for harder drugs (cocaine, heroin), I haven't formed my opinion on it really....

[Guest Shingen]

Well, just for the record I am pro-marijuana. Have been, always will be. Never heard an argument against pot that made a lick of sense, when you put it up against alcohol and cigerattes.

I doubt it will ever be legalized, though. Too many people in high-places want it banned for all the wrong reasons.

[aramike]

quote:

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This is ludichrist(?).

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Hehe, "ludicrous".

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We are already a chemically-dependant society, and obtaining 'drugs' is relativily simple and easy for most 'drug-users'.

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Not NEARLY as chemically dependant as we would be if it were legal. For one thing, it would be much easier to obtain drugs. Secondly, it would become socially acceptable. Third, I fear it would send out a very poor message to our children: "Well, you really SHOULDN'T do this, but if you REALLY want to...".

Society as a whole is hardly chemically dependant as most drugs are NOT socially acceptable.

quote:

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since most drug-users are using prescription medications, then that would lead me to believe that prescriptions drugs are being more abused (given human nature), and what makes you think that narcotics and illegal 'drug-users' are abusing those drugs any more or less the legal drug users?

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Uhm, U.S. DEA statistics.

quote:

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I think that illegalization has more to do with the 'pyschotic' effects of certain drugs, then it's harmfulness to the human-body.

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Actually, one of the major reasons that drugs are outlawed is due to heavy overseas manufacturing. It was feared that other countries could destabilize the US economy through drug trafficing.

[ShoHashi]

Jaguar wrote:

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I say let the doughheads kill themselves off, we'd be better off in the longrun!!

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Unfortunately, it is not that simple. Sure, some will eventually overdose and die. But the unfortunate truth is that most will commit more crimes because of using drugs. Drugs cost money, and the perps have to get it somewhere. They'd commit robberies to get money which could lead to murders if the wrong person was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or, the perp could cause vehicular accidents while on the stuff. Legalizing is definately a no-no.

Shingen wrote:

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and easy for most 'drug-users'. They can even be obtained within the prison-system by the very guards that are supposed to be 'controlling' them. Legal or illegal will neither make us a less chemically-dependant

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Sure, that could happen and it does, but not as much as you would think. I work in a federal prison, I know. And...eventually the guard or physician's assistant or whomever WILL eventually get caught. You have to remember, inmates only care about themselves. If they can use staff to their advantage they will...and then when you least expect it, they'll roll on you if they see a way to get ahead. As for the staff member doing this and getting caught..that's on him. I have no sympathy for anyone potentially causing a dangerous situation for myself or other staff in an already dangerous job.

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: ShoHashi ]

[Corsair]

Why bother trying to control the drugs, legalizing, or any of that crap? Burn down all the fields, create a giant antitoxin that floats around the atmosphere, and introduce a gene factor which makes any (illegal) drug instantly deadly by even touching it.

And in the year 50000 (when we've mastered time travel), someone will need to go back and kill the guy who thought of using and dealing illegal drugs.

[Guest]

quote:

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Unfortunately, it is not that simple. Sure, some will eventually overdose and die. But the unfortunate truth is that most will commit more crimes because of using drugs. Drugs cost money, and the perps have to get it somewhere. They'd commit robberies to get money which could lead to murders if the wrong person was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or, the perp could cause vehicular accidents while on the stuff. Legalizing is definately a no-no.

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This is happening now, WITH the socalled war on drugs. The fact is, if drugs are legalized, 1: we can tax the hell out of it, the debt would be gone in less then 5 years. 2: the price of the drugs would come down.

3: there are people out there that rob and steal for Cigarettes and Alchohol, but those are still legal. 4: there are people out there that drink and drive, I don't see alchohol being made illegal.

Nothing would change, except that 1: the police could concentrate on catching real criminals, 2: the government would make all kinds of money, 3: The billions that are being spent on the drug war, could be given back to us the taxpayer, (Yeah Right,like that would happen.) or spent on other important things, like our damn roads!! lol

In all honesty, if you want to go waste yourself on drugs in your own home, who am I to tell you "no you can't do that to yourself?" BS, if you want to go and kill yourself with drugs that's your problem, not mine. BE MY GUEST!!!

[echo]

I have soo many thoughts about this. My problem would be relevance.

Would my life have been different if drugs were legal? I can't say I know.

Would my Uncle be addicted to Methadone, if his Heroine was legal? I can't say.

Would my sisters friend have hung himself if he could have gotten his drugs at CVS? I am not sure.

Would my 23 year old neighbor and Mother of a two year old, died in her front lawn from cardiac arrest as a result of an overdose. Not have happened if we were taxing her drugs? I doubt it.

Is someone hosestly saying that driving under the influence of Weed less an offense as driving drunk? I hope not.

I do agree that either legal or not, there will always be an underground.

I also think that the idea of paying off the debt with the taxation of others addictions is cruel.

I feel many of you have stories like this, since I live in rural suburbia, miles from any major city.

I guess again all I can say is I am having a problem with relavance.......

xoxoxo

[Epsilon 5]

quote:

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I doubt it will ever be legalized, though. Too many people in high-places want it banned for all the wrong reasons.

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The government of Canada just had a contract of 4 millions with a private company to legally produce marijuana for medical purpose.

[Guest Shingen]

aramike wrote:

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Not NEARLY as chemically dependant as we would be if it were legal. For one thing, it would be much easier to obtain drugs. Secondly, it would become socially acceptable. Third, I fear it would send out a very poor message to our children: "Well, you really SHOULDN'T do this, but if you REALLY want to...".

Society as a whole is hardly chemically dependant as most drugs are NOT socially acceptable.

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I'm sorry, but if you use asperin/headache medicines, cough medicine, artifical sweetners, coffee additives, ect,ect,ect you ARE using chemicals, and since ALMOST everyone uses CHEMICALS thus we do live in a CHEMICAL dependant society. Labeling one chemical 'drug' and the other chemical something else is irrelevent because they are both still CHEMICALS.

Also the only way to GUARANTEE enforcement of the drug-laws is to create a police state of which a socialist would be proud. No offence aramike, but in one thread, you say that the government should have NO REASON to violate your freedom, and in this thread, you want to take way someone else's FREEDOM to ingest 'drugs', because you say it's for a 'greater social good'. This is rather hypocritical to me.

I say as long as they aren't hurting me, then fine. If or when they commit a crime, then they should be PUNISHED FOR THE CRIME! Drug-dependancy is a HEALTH problem, not a CRIMINAL ONE, and you risk your freedoms when you make it a criminal problem, because every law that's written is a freedom lost.

[Guest]

quote:

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I say as long as they aren't hurting me, then fine. If or when they commit a crime, then they should be PUNISHED FOR THE CRIME! Drug-dependancy is a HEALTH

problem, not a CRIMINAL ONE, and you risk your freedoms when you make it a criminal

problem, because every law that's written is a freedom lost.

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Right on Shingen!!! Agree 100%, used to call myself Republican, but the more I look at things, the more I think that I am a libertarian or a constitutionalist.

Now, heres' a figure for you all to chew on a little bit.

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This gem from the last issue of Time magazine:

In the Netherlands marijuana is legal. In the Netherlands 28% of 10th graders have used marijuana.

In the U.S. marijuana is illegal. In the U.S. 41% of 10th graders have tried marijuana.

Ahhh. The dangers of drug legalization.

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That's from the Neal Boortz website, but I have gotta agree, this war on drugs is a war on our rights.

And Apollyon, good job, another thread that will probably live on in infamy!! lol

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[aramike]

quote:

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I'm sorry, but if you use asperin/headache medicines, cough medicine, artifical sweetners, coffee additives, ect,ect,ect you ARE using chemicals, and since ALMOST everyone uses CHEMICALS thus we do live in a CHEMICAL dependant society. Labeling one chemical 'drug' and the other chemical something else is irrelevent because they are both still CHEMICALS.

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OK, uhm, please tell me that you actually DIDN'T know what I meant by "chemical dependency". I really see no reason to debate silly semantics.

quote:

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Also the only way to GUARANTEE enforcement of the drug-laws is to create a police state of which a socialist would be proud. No offence aramike, but in one thread, you say that the government should have NO REASON to violate your freedom, and in this thread, you want to take way someone else's FREEDOM to ingest 'drugs', because you say it's for a 'greater social good'. This is rather hypocritical to me.

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OK, now I'm getting ticked. You're being ridiculous. Perhaps we should get rid of drunk driving laws too? Perhaps everyone should have the ability to risk OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES on a "bad trip"?

I don't think so.

In the "socialism" thread, freedom is that of IDEOLOGY. If you can only debate semantics, that simply goes to show your lack of a true argument for the cause. Perhaps murder should be legalized? People using drugs are a DANGER to EVERYONE ELSE in society.

quote:

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I say as long as they aren't hurting me, then fine.

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Well, if a substance-abusive citizen decides to mug you for spare cash because he can't afford his crack habit, don't complain to the police.

What you're suggesting is that we TRUST people when they get high. That notion is so incredibly ridiculous.

quote:

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If or when they commit a crime, then they should be PUNISHED FOR THE CRIME! Drug-dependancy is a HEALTH problem, not a CRIMINAL ONE, and you risk your freedoms when you make it a criminal problem, because every law that's written is a freedom lost.

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Well, then perhaps we should have the freedom to harm one another. Drug dependency is NOT simply a health problem - it is a societ problem. Plain and simple. If someone wants to do crack in their home, and is LOCKED in as the same time, that's fine by me. But let's legalize these HIGHLY ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCES, so when people run out of cash to aquire them, they become threats to society. Further, let's legalize the production of it, so a HUNDRED TIMES MORE of the crap hits our shores.

Oh yeah, that's a BRILLIANT idea, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING that drug dependency is the catalyst for damned near 60% of ALL CRIME in the US. Take a look at these statistics: http://www.dea.gov/stats/drugstats.htm#adultmale2 .

Sure, let's trust DRUG ADDICTS to make the right decisions. That is why drug use should be illegal - in doing so people make a decision that ENDANGERS the lives of ANYONE around them.

Endangerment IS a crime.

Btw, Jaguar - marijuana isn't a major threat to truly screw people up. If people want to use that alone, in their homes, that's fine by me.

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: aramike ]

[aramike]

Btw, Shingen, next time you pull that "hypocritical" crap, consider this: in a socialist society, people simply do not have the freedom to choose HOW to make their way - only WHETHER OR NOT to do so.

In OUR society, we DO have that choice.

Laws are NOT the removal of freedoms - SOCIETY IS. The amount of freedom removed is dependant upon the society. Further, one STILL has freedom to go against the laws. Society THEN has freedom to punish this individual.

Socialism does NOT allow one to do as he pleases. Capitalism (a republic) does except that people suffer consequences.

[Guest Shingen]

quote:

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Well, then perhaps we should have the freedom to harm one another. Drug dependency is NOT simply a health problem - it is a societ problem. Plain and simple. If someone wants to do crack in their home, and is LOCKED in as the same time, that's fine by me. But let's legalize these HIGHLY ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCES, so when people run out of cash to aquire them, they become threats to society. Further, let's legalize the production of it, so a HUNDRED TIMES MORE of the crap hits our shores.

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I could make the same argument against Alcohol, it kills as many or mare people then controled substances, yet it's still legal, and you missed my point, I said people should be PUNISHED for a CRIME, NOT possession/use of a chemical! This is the height of hypocracy. Why not throw every alcoholic in jail for possessing alcohol? They are all obvious risks to society? You're argument is plainly emotional.

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Btw, Shingen, next time you pull that "hypocritical" crap,

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it seems I hit a nerve...

[Epsilon 5]

quote:

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Originally posted by Aramike:

Blah blah blah...

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You're amazing. Where do you get all that stuff? You have more arguments than I can carry units of radine on my ship!

You keep arguing over an over like you could never go dry!

Whether I'm speaking in my native language or not, I would never be able to talk a fight like that. Oh, and Shingen, keep confronting him, you always seem to be on his "enemy side"

Assassin! Stop insurging you against him!

[Outlaw]

Legalize marijuana. 'Nuff said.

[Guest Apollyon]

You guys have brought up most of the arguments that I make to myself about this subject. Yet I still lean towards the legalization of drugs. Maybe not all drugs, but I am not qualified enough to know which ones are the worst.

I do not believe that it is the right of other people in a society or the government of that society to tell people what they can and cannot put into their bodies, unless the life of another is concerned as in the case of pregnant mothers. So I think drugs should be legal. It is only when that person acts to endager others that they should be punished. I am wary of many crime statistics related to drugs because they usually don't make the distinction between trafficking/possesing/distributing drugs and actual crime related to drugs. I realize that if drugs were legal, more people might become addicted to them, and therefore be willing to commit a crime to continue the addiction. But a lot of people are addicted to many other things that are legal and the rate of crime related to those things is very low, such as alchohol and cigarettes.

As long as people act responsibly there is no reason to jail them simply for owning or ingesting a chemical. That goes along with the whole idea of not limiting free speech just because it MIGHT hurt/slander/reveal top secret government documents, only the act of hurting/slandering/revealing top secret government documents is illegal.

I also have a problem with the statistics of people who are in jail because of drug related convictions. I don't know specific figures but a ludicrously high percentage of people are in jail merely for possesing drugs. That's just plain stupid when you think about it. The prison system in America and the war on drugs in general costs TONS of money every year, money that could be better put to use educating our children that drugs are bad, not that they are illegal.

Of course as Shingen said, my opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to national policy.

[Guest]

OK, I just want to make a point, in a purely capitalist society and the one our Founders actually envisioned, Morality meant that you would not hurt your fellow man, and make the best of yourself in all ways possible.

The constitution has given us the freedom to do just that, but, the Socialists(Democrats) have tried to control our lives through our pocketbooks, punish the successful, give that booty to the unsuccessful for the votes and power it gives them, the Republicans on the other hand, want to control what you do in your bedroom, they are the morality party, if they think it's bad, then by god, so should you!!!

The fact is that if a person is gay, so what, it should not be outlawed, it's been around forever, although, they should not ask for special rights, we are all citizens, and have the same rights. Drugs, let people do what they want as long as it does not effect me.

The fact is, the center needs to come back, that would be the libertarians and the constitutionalist, do what you want, just don't interfere with my rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Wanna do drugs, fine, wanna be gay, fine, wanna go out and shoot somebody, not fine.

Do as you will, as long as it hurts no one else. Easy if you ask me. But when it does hurt someone, you are responsible for those actions and will be punished.

Very easy!!! That is what the founding fathers had in mind, and it has been perverted to point where the government in the constitution and the one we have now, are not even close to being similar.

I really like the pagan religions because of this very mindset. Do what you will as long as you hurt no one else, and you are responsible for your own actions, but not of others. There will not be punishments, directly, because of wrong actions, but Karma is not an easy thing to get rid of!!

In other words, you will get what's coming to you!!! Good, or bad!!! And YOU are responsible for ALL your actions, no one else. If you do wrong, then you will be punished by society if it hurts another, but if it hurts no one but yourself, then it's not societies business.

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[Guest]

Legalize drugs? Pass the soma will you dear?

You must take into account that legalizing it NOW and SEVERELY controlling it/severely taxing it NOW will only work... NOW.

In 20 years or so you will end up with a large pool of "legally" addicted citizens who have willingly paid half their paychecks to buy these drugs... and guess what will happen THEN ? They will start whining that the prices are too high, get some lobbying done in congress... that addicted presidential candidate may even get involved... and by the end of the election that society may receive cheap, easily accessible cocaine or heroine. And then that nation goes the way of the roman empire.

Not possible to happen you say? Stop thinking on this stuff in "practical" ways. It dont work like that. Think ECONOMICS. Why do you think alchohol and tobbacco are so strong now, even when we KNOW they are deadly poisons and cause so much death? Because it brings a sh$tload of money... and most of those in power OWN tobacco plantations (Bush!).

"It would also help clean up corruption and the dependancy of some South American countries on the drug trade (see Columbia)."

It aint dependancy, the nation receives almost nothing from the drug trade. The narcos use their entire gains to fund their armies to protect their fields and keep the country destabilized and under a cloak of terror. I know, I am Colombian. And you are dead wrong, legalizing drugs wont help the consuming nations (aka, US) or the producing nations (aka Colombia) in any way in this matter. It would in fact make things worse by making those already CRIMINALLY responsible (those in Colombia killing innocent people to grow that crap and those in the US killing innocents selling the crap) become LEGALLY powerful.

"Think of the consequences your actions will have upon the next 10 generations" -some native american saying that pisses me off I cant remember which tribe it was from.