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MidnightGreen

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Yeah, Soback, seriously, take it easy. There isn't a person here that isn't completely repelled by what happened today. And, I think I can speak for all Americans in saying that we're all angry and we all want swift, decisive, and intense punishment handed down.

But we can shout for it calmly.

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Dear God in heaven...

I've been watching the footage all morning.

All I can say is that I hope that God smiles down on America and every person who had friends and loved ones in the World Trade Center.

I feel sickened, disgusted, frightened, and dismayed by what has happened today. Every time I see the footage, and see the heartache, tears come to my eyes.

I pray that the group who brought this atrocity to be is identified and executed. I also pray that this punishment does not snowball to a war that involves even more civilians, or other countries.

We've all watched Sci-fi movies that started like this. A lot of them ended with world war. A war we cannot afford to begin.

I can't convey how scared and dismayed I am by all of this. My deepest, deepest sympathies go out to each and every person affected by this act of horrific terror on the people of America. The hearts of the people of the whole world go out to you.

-GD

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quote:

We've all watched Sci-fi movies that started like this. A lot of them ended with world war. A war we cannot afford to begin.

A world war will only begin if others respond to aggression. In this case, I wish to take the other world leaders at their word when they express sympathy and disgust. If America takes swift, decisive action, I would expect the rest of the world to see the justness of it and not escalate it to worldwide conflict.

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-I don't think Bush is a panzy at all, we must have faith in him whether you voted for him or not.

-And someone mentioned that we are considered an icon country so we cannot get away with nuclear attack, or something like that. Well I disagree, we are an icon country yes, but an icon of democracy(freedom). I'm not saying we should use nukes at all, but I am saying if another country is behind this we MUST attack with FULL unconditional force. If we don't, then to the rest of the world we make democracy, us as Americans, look like spineless beings.

And for a fact that is not true, Americans don't put up with bull ^$ (sorry SC). We are not a country of spineless humans.

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First and foremost, CLINTON got this started, he was one of the WORST presidents that this country has EVER had!! BAR NONE!!! PERIOD!!!

Now, this was a direct Slap in the face to the American people, we need to strike hard, strike fast and strike in a devastating manner!!

This WILL not lead to world war and anyone that says so does not have all the facts straight. We have been attacked, we have the RIGHT to retaliate in kind.

Bush has handled this well, and hopefully will continue to do so. But the fact is, we are now on a war footing, from what I understand we are at the highest state of military readiness at this point, which means Defcon 1, anyone have info regarding this?

The fact of the matter is, these terrorists are not done, this was the beginning. We MUST protect ourselves and our interests.

I may have lost my first cousin in this attack, so needless to say I am PISSED, this is not yet confirmed, but it is likely.

Anything up to and including tactical Nukes are open as far as I am concerned, no option should be taken off the table and ALL options must be expored.

Yes, I am angry, and just hurt for all of those that have died today, I want revenge, and I want this terrorist activity to stop, PERIOD!! and whatever it takes, WHATEVER IT TAKES!!!

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I avoid the news specifically because 95% of the reported news is bad news. I avoid political discussion and entanglement, simply because I get a headache thinking about the decisions that polititians make day in and day out.

As of today, I leave all that behind. Akuma came to my house this afternoon in tears. A few hours after the first crash. I'd just woken up, and had no idea about what had happened. For some reason, I knew that the cold I was feeling wasn't just the weather. Then she turned on the TV, and I saw the things that everyone else has been watching for countless hours.

Now I'm reading words of people who, if they were in office, seem to be willing to "nuke" those responsible, before their responsibility is even proven. To those, I would offer these words. Whether you read them or not is your choice. Reading is easy, though. I ask that you also hear them.

It is obvious that eventual military action is now not a question of if, but rather, when. I'd hoped never to see such a thing in my lifetime.

I've seen footage of Atomic Bomb tests. Footage of such bombings, that I need not name. Those images were taken over fifty years ago. Half a century.

I saw that footage in Grade 2, and I cried. In the middle of class, I started crying. I didn't see the people! I didn't need to. A few years later, I heard stories about how people's sillouettes had been burned into the few buildings left standing. Images, for all eternity, of those people's last moments on this earth.

And predictably, it is being suggested that that same fate should be wrought about once again. Also, predictably, it is by people who were not there when those two Atom bombs were dropped. And I'm willing to bet all that I am to say that those same people have never been to those horrific places. If you had been, I do not believe that you could ever suggest such an act.

Today, I saw two of the tallest buildings I'd ever seen, be struck by commercial aircraft, and tumble to the ground. I saw people jumping, falling. And I saw Dr. Heath, right after the collapse, immediately trying to render aid to those who needed it. I imagine that he's still out there right now, waiting for the chance to save a life.

So why do you people suddenly call out for more death? Because you're angry. As I am. We all seek Justice. Yet it should be noted, that Justice has never been found through the use of a nuclear warhead. Nor from any weapon. It ended a war, yes. It "saved" thousands of lives, sure, but at what cost?

Humanity learned of the awsome destruction of the Nuclear Bomb. That harsh lesson prevented the Cold War from becoming something much worse. Yet, as we've all learned, in principle or in experience: History has a habit of repeating itself. It happens when those in control, forget the lessons of the past, and act on their instincts. I hope and pray, that President Bush, or any President after him, never has to give the order to push that button. He already showed great promise today by not forgetting the things that have gone before.

I do not encourage armed conflict, but I recognize when it is no longer an option to avoid it. I would rather "send in the troops." I would never sanction the dropping of a nuclear warhead.

Please understand, that I am not trying to insult anyone. Everything that has happened today has been the result of a "knee-jerk" reaction to a horrific and unprecidented event. My reaction is no different, and I know that. I recognize that you are all speaking from your hearts.

As of now, my heart tells me that the time for words is over, and action must be taken. As such, I am going to be donating blood first thing tomorrow. It's not the time for more death. Now is the time to heal the injured. Since I cannot go across the border to lend aid, I will send, instead, my life's blood. Not all of it, mind you, but as much as I can spare. And as much as may be required to see this crisis through to the end.

It is 1:30 in the morning. I can't sleep, and an attempt to do so would only result in more torture. I apologize if I have offended anyone. What I have said, I feel, is something that needed to be said. I intend to say no more on this until we've all had time to think things through.

I've seen it on the news, and I still can't quite believe it. Some part of me does, though. Some part of me, the part that was crying for six hours, and cries now as I type this post, does know that it is real. My condolences to all those who lost friends and loved ones. My prayers to all those who do not know yet, the fates of their friends, their sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, family. My prayers also, to those who are awaiting the rescue teams. May we all be carried through this tragedy, this day of great sorrow.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: David Foss ]

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This is a terrifying tragedy ( ), and it's not surprising that so many want blood for blood, but history has proven that it's never that simple.

The USA has been a popular target of terrorism for decades, and the US government has issued the same response over and over again: military retaliation. Despite all of the military power that the USA has deployed in response to acts of terrorism, the attacks continue to get worse. Dropping bombs on people who are more than willing to die is ineffective. The "war on terrorism" is going the way of the "war on drugs": zero tolerance is becoming futile. A military response should not be the first resort.

Of course the terrorists should be punished, but there are other ways of punishing them. They're called "courts". As soon as the criminals are discovered, and they WILL be discovered (they hit the Pentagon, dammit), the government should push for extradition and put the terrorists on trial for their crimes. This is an option worth exploring for two reasons:

1. Civilians are less likely to get slaughtered by stray warheads.

2. That's what America is all about (at least according to the founders).

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Terrorists do not care about courts etc. and this is NOT a CRIME, this is a declaration of war!! We are now at war, and just had it confirmed, we are at Defcon 3. This is a middle ground, but we are at a high state of readiness.

We are now at war people, and we are going to retaliate. I know what a Nuke can and will do, and I know what a tactical nuke can do. If we need to use it, then we do!!

The canadians and the australians have given up many of thier rights for security, I am not willing to do that. When you give up liberty for security, you get neither.

The US is going to respond, and in a warlike way. This cannot be helped, again this was not a crime, this was a declaration of war and will and should be treated as such!!

And NO OPTION should be taken off the table!!

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There's nothing in the world that I could say to express my feelings about what happened.

I hope that all who've been behind this will get their punishment one way or another.

Sametime I hope that this will not lead to any war acts, because war between countries means only more innocent victims and grief.

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This is a declaration of war ON ALL HUMANITY, not just the USA and it is up to the world community to find these people. I'm sorry Jaguar, but talk of any nuclear weapons is totally ludicrous and not worth comment . The Taliban my harbour Bin Laden, but they probably have no control over his movements or actions, such is his power and are probably embarrassed at their connection with him.

The explosions in Kabul are almost certainly the work of the Northern Alliance in revenge for a failed assassination attempt on their leader at the weekend.

Lets get the mourning out of the way then get down to the business of finding the perpetrators and bringing them to justice.

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Ahem,

THIS WILL NOT START WW3, but the entire free world is supporting any military action the US takes, Russia is supposedly sending 100,000 troops to help the US into afghanistan, if we go in after bin laden. This is an act of war performed by a faceless coward, and the EU AND EVEN MOST OF ASIA ARE SUPPORTIN THE US IN ANY MILITARY ACTION WE TAKE....i can't understand how bad i felt for the palestinian people when there civilins got killed, now they are celebrating when ours our killed....

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Hmm.... I go sleep for the night for school, and more people point the finger at Clinton and Bush, and even more are talking of nuclear revenge and war? I tell you, get some sleep. You're obviously too stressed and panicked to be in this forum......

Incredible; look at the following list. Some of the victims included the executive producer for Fraiser, and a scout and his pro-scouting director for the L.A. Kings.......

quote:

Partial List of Attack Victims

.c The Associated Press

Partial lists of those killed in Tuesday's terrorist attacks, according to family members, friends, co-workers and local law enforcement.

American Airlines Flight 11: Boston to Los Angeles

CREW

- John Ogonowski, 52, Dracut, Mass., pilot.

- Tom McGuiness, 42, Portsmouth, N.H., co-pilot.

- Sara Low, Batesville, Ark., flight attendant.

PASSENGERS

- David Angell, 54, Pasadena, Calif., executive producer, NBC's ''Frasier.''

- Lynn Angell, Pasadena, Calif.

- Edmund Glazer, 41, Chatsworth, Calif., chief financial officer, MRV Communications Inc.

- Daniel C. Lewin, 31, co-founder, Akamai Technologies.

- Tara Creamer, 30, Worcester, Mass.

- Ted Hennessey, 35, Belmont, Mass.

- Peter Gay, 54, Taunton, Mass., vice president and general manager, Raytheon Co. plant.

- Charles Jones, 48, Bedford, Mass.

- Bill Weems, Marblehead, Mass., commercial producer.

- John Cahill, Wellesley, Mass.

- David Retik, Needham, Mass.

- Robin Caplin, Natick, Mass.

- Mary Wahlstrom, 75, Kaysville, Utah.

- Carolyn Beug, Los Angeles.

- Anna Williams Allison, 48, Stoneham, Mass.

- Jeffrey Coombs, 42, Abington, Mass.

- Thelma Cuccinello, 71, Wilmot, N.H.

- Alex Filipov, 70, Concord, Mass.

- Paige Farley Hackel, 46, Newton, Mass.

- Richard Ross, 58, Newton, Mass.

- Timothy Ward, California.

- Berry Berenson, 53, Los Angeles, actress and photographer.

- Jude Larson, 31, Los Angeles.

- Natalie Larson, Los Angeles.

United Airlines Flight 175: Boston to Los Angeles

CREW

- Victor J. Saracini, 51, Lower Makefield Township, Pa., pilot.

- Al Marchand, Alamogordo, N.M., flight attendant.

- Amy Jarret, 28, North Smithfield, R.I., flight attendant.

PASSENGERS

- Brian D. Sweeney, 38, Barnstable, Mass.

- Garnet ''Ace'' Bailey, 53, Lynnfield, Mass., director of pro scouting, Los Angeles Kings.

- Mark Bavis, 31, scout, Los Angeles Kings.

- Peter Hanson, Massachusetts.

- Susan Hanson, Massachusetts.

- Christine Hanson, 2, Massachusetts.

- Jesus Sanchez, 45, Hudson, Mass., off-duty flight attendant

- James E. Hayden, 47, Westford, Mass.

- Ruth McCourt, 24, Westford, Mass.

- Juliana Valentine McCourt, 4, Westford, Mass.

- John Cahill, Wellesley, Mass.

- Shawn Nassaney, 25, Pawtucket, R.I.

- Lynn Goodchild, 25, Attleboro, Mass.

- Lisa Frost, 22, Rancho Santa Margarita, Calif.

American Airlines Flight 77: Washington to Los Angeles

CREW

- Michelle Heidenberger, Chevy Chase, Md., flight attendant.

PASSENGERS

- Barbara Olson, 45, TV commentator and lawyer.

- Karen A. Kincaid, 40, Washington, D.C., lawyer, Wiley Rein & Fielding.

- Christopher Newton, Long Beach, Calif.

- Leslie A. Whittington, 45, University Park, Md., Georgetown University professor.

- Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, University Park, Md.

- Bob Speisman, New York.

United Airlines Flight 93: Newark, N.J., to San Francisco.

CREW

- Cee Cee Lyles, Fort Myers, Fla., flight attendant.

PASSENGERS

- Mark Bingham, 31, San Francisco.

- Thomas E. Burnett Jr., 38, senior vice president and chief operating officer, Thoratec Corp.

- Christine Snyder, 32, Kailua, Hawaii.

World Trade Center

- Rev. Michael Judge, New York Fire Department chaplain.

- Ray Downey, firefighter, chief of special operations command.

- William Feehan, First Deputy Commissioner of Fire Department.

- Peter Ganci, Fire Department chief.

AP-NY-09-12-01 0603EDT

Copyright 2001 The Associated Press.

God bless their families and friends.

Here's some poll results. Nothing you all probably don't already know.

quote:

Polls: Nine in Ten Say Attacks are Acts of War

.c The Associated Press

Some poll results after Tuesday's terror attacks. The CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll interviewed 619 adults. The ABC-Washington Post poll interviewed 608 adults. Each had an error margin of plus or minus 4 percentage points:

--

CNN-USA TODAY-GALLUP

-More than half, 55 percent, said they thought Tuesday's attacks represent the beginning of a sustained terrorist campaign against the United States that will continue for several weeks. Three in 10 disagreed.

-Almost nine of 10 said they considered the attacks an ''act of war.''

-About half were very confident in President Bush's ability to handle the situation. Another third were somewhat confident.

-Nine in 10 said the attacks were the most tragic event of their lifetime.

-People were about evenly divided whether it made them less willing to fly on airplanes.

--

ABC-WASHINGTON POST

-People were about evenly split on whether the United States could reasonably have done more to prevent the attacks.

-Nine in 10 said they had at least some confidence that the United States would find and punish those responsible, with more than half ''very confident.''

-About nine in 10 support military action against groups or nations responsible for the attacks, even if it means getting in a war.

-Nine in 10 said they prayed for the victims of the attacks and almost everyone, 99 percent, said they watched or listened to broadcast news reports.

-Four of 10 employed people said they left work early or stayed home.

AP-NY-09-12-01 0022EDT

Copyright 2001 The Associated Press.

Hmm... 9/10 support military action, even if it gets into war. Does anyone know what war, I mean true war is? People, both innocent and those who protect the innocent, get killed, and for what?

Eh, before we get into a war, lets actually find who we're going to war with, then. It would make us look bad if we didn't wait.

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You know JJ, you're right. I hate what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians, yet it chills me to the bone to see Palestinian children celebrating in the streets of Nablus...

Sources close to Bin Laden have claimed he is not behind this, believe them if you want, but if ISN'T him, then we have one hell of a task on our hands trying to find out who is responsible.

What's frightening is that these guys only had Stanley knives (box cutters). In retrospect, it really wouldn't take much for a bunch of determined nutters to hide such knives in their hand baggage and.....well, you all know the rest.

It really makes me shudder.

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Jag,

What if the terrorists were actually American? At this stage, we are not CERTAIN who did this. It's happened before. What if the terrorists were born in America?

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Well, Bin Laden may or may not be behind these attacks. However consider this, Bin Laden is not the only one with an axe to grind with the U.S. I've been seeing reports last night that indicate that if it was Bin Laden, He might have had a little help, specifically state supported help. Up until now Bin Ladens tactics have amounted to the car bomb or variations thereof. Reports also indicate that it would take a well trained pilot, not just a cesna jockey, to navigate and guide those jumbo jets so precisely into their targets, and I don't believe for a moment that they could coerce our own pilots to do something like that. They'd die first. Those pilots whoever they were had to have time in a large bodied jet. Bin Laden may be rich, but that sort of training indicates to me the tacit cooperation if not support of a government. otherwise Bin Laden would have to find at least four fully trained and professional pilots willing to lay their lives down for the cause. Now all of this is conjecture, but personally I think our old friends from Iraq may have had a hand in this.

I'm an American and I love my country, and I am consumed by a cold calculating anger by yesterdays events. Yet, I am rational, and I do not believe we should make a move until we are sure. But I also believe this operation was to big to forever cover the identity if not the exact location of the perpetrators. And if it is discovered that Iraq was involved, then I say we move in like Mother Hell and do what we should have done a decade ago.

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The accident is now a day old. And I still don't know what to say about it. Yesterday afternoon I believed I had woken up that morning. But seeing those images on the tv my mind was struggling with it's perception of reallity. First seeing one of the towers smoking and hearing is was supposedly due to a airplane crash. "Possible!", I guessed. With the towers being directly on the centerline of one of JFK's runways. But then, being just as shocked as the tv reporters, seing another plane going straight ahead into the other building. This was too much. It couldn't been happening. I thought I was remembering Hollywood movie footages in my mind. Diehard, Blue Thunder, Last action Hero. Aircraft, exploding highrise office buildings. Surreal! But "no!", wake-up call just happend.

Terrorists took a different approach yesterday. Instead of threatening to take the lives of hostages in trade for release of prisoners, why not take them anyway and take a stuffed building with it? Heck, take too. Nah!, double that and put the US (and world) in a state of chaos and dispair. Or so they intended. And succeeded.

My deepest condolances to those that are suffering goes without saying. There is no doubt that every person inflicted by this event should get all the help and support in any way or form. But feeling helpless is all I can do right now. Or so I think.

Punnishment is inevitable. And justified. But if it should be portraied as a war, I don't know. A war described in laymens-terms perhaps. An unrelentless persue and erradication of terrorism and it's support for sure. But it should be hard and decisive. From the world at large. The USA does not stand alone in this. They may feel they do, but they don't. I hope they realise that.

As for the mentionings of using nuclear force, I totally stand behind David Foss. Even considering the fact I most surrely owe my existance to those two boms. My dad and his family was put into a Japanese concentration camp in Indonesia when he was only months old. Him having been several times on the verge of death. I believe it gave me a very centered approach on wars. Both me and my father equally agreed about the neccesity of the Gulf War. Saddam had no right. But being a 14 year old, I think I was more jumpy about it that he was. He knows more than I ever will. (I hope, yet don't too)

The feelings I had yesterday when experiencing the events were the same as I have felt when watching the latest Pearl Harbor movie. Downright anger. Were they justified? Absolutely. We know who caused the chaos in both events. The Japanese pilots and the terrorists behind the stick. But that's basically all we know about them at this time, except for that the Japanese government sent those bombers to Hawai. The US' intelligence authoroties may have information that makes a lead to Afghanistan or other Middle East countries seriously credible. But that is not for sure as of yet. Swift action is not part of the solution, I think. Fierce investigation and X-ray-like research into every possible direction is the immediate task IMO. (Apart from relief efforts in Newyork and Washington ofcourse) Then justice is served best. The last 24 hours have totally changed my reservations on Echelon. (the electronic intelligence evesdropping network the US and I believe New Zealand set up???) If you have nothing to fear, why fear?

I like to end with the following consideration for all. I've said enough while wasting quite a few words.

Don't start kicking at the first wasp hive you see, when you've just been stung by a bee. That might get you killed.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Rico Jansen ]

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I too do not support a nuclear option. I would also like to add that I am touched by the support I have seen from members of the international community, thanks guys it is appreciated.

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This is War, make NO mistake about it. I just want ALL options open, including Nuclear, not that we have to use them, but they are available as an option.

This is WAR!! Yes, innocents are going to die, but probably upwards of 20,000, YES, 20,000 and it's probably twice that have died in New York.

This is war and the first strike has been made by the enemy, who is the enemy?

ALL Terrorists and the countries that harbor them. We have the ability and the moral responsibility to take out any and all terrorists, whether they were directly involved in this attack or not.

This is war, why do you think ALL terrorist organizations are tripping over each other condemning this attack. Because they now know that they have gone too far!!!

91% of the American people are agreed, we need to strike back and strike back hard, even if it leads to war and it will, I almost guarantee it. We do not want justice it is too late for that, we want vengeance!!

I am tired of all the, "this was a crime" or "innocents are going to die" or "nuclear is ridiculous". This is what terrorists count on!! They don't care about courts, they don't care about innocents, they are immoral, these are ANIMALS!!! They should be put diwn like the rabid dogs they are.

Yeah, and some of you apologists will say that the terrorists are too weak to do anything else, well, it is now time to nip this little thing in the bud, they want to die for Allah, well, then they can, but on thier soil and at a time of OUR choosing.

THIS IS WAR, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!! IT IS TOO LATE FOR ANYTHING ELSE!!!

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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quote:


Originally posted by Menchise:

This is a terrifying tragedy ( ), and it's not surprising that so many want blood for blood, but history has proven that it's never that simple.

The USA has been a popular target of terrorism for decades, and the US government has issued the same response over and over again: military retaliation. Despite all of the military power that the USA has deployed in response to acts of terrorism, the attacks continue to get worse. Dropping bombs on people who are more than willing to die is ineffective. The "war on terrorism" is going the way of the "war on drugs": zero tolerance is becoming futile. A military response should not be the first resort.

Of course the terrorists should be punished, but there are other ways of punishing them. They're called "courts". As soon as the criminals are discovered, and they WILL be discovered (they hit the Pentagon, dammit), the government should push for extradition and put the terrorists on trial for their crimes. This is an option worth exploring for two reasons:

1. Civilians are less likely to get slaughtered by stray warheads.

2. That's what America is all about (at least according to the founders).


You've got to be kidding. We've been "punishing" terrorists through the courts for decades, and look what happens. On the day before the sentencing of an associate of bin Laden, thousands of innocent Americans are killed.

Yeah, let's keep using courts. Let's keep dealing with terrorists taking hostages in the hopes of getting their comrades sprung. Let's keep doing the SAME THINGS over and over again, because they OBVIOUSLY can't hurt anyone.

THOUSANDS of people died yesterday for no reason. The courts have been used for decades, and still THOUSANDS of people died.

I'm sorry, but your pacifist approach has been tried and it has FAILED.

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Guest $iLk

According to an overnight poll

  • 94% favor military attack against terrorists if identified

  • 92% favor military action even if it means going to war

  • 84% favor military action against the countries who support these terrorists

  • 2/3 of Americans support military action whether or not innocent civilians are killed in the process.

Well, I agree. I listened to Bush's statement this morning, and it filled me with pride I haven't felt in a while about what our country can be and how we can pull together.

We shouldn't get lost in a crusade, yet at the same time I wouldn't object if we were to attack any country that condones these attacks.

First of all, I believe that it doesn't matter who is responsible really. We should attack and destroy anyone who has made themselves an enemy of "the great SATAN"

Whether that be IRAN, IRAQ, Palestine, Afganistan, etc. we should attack and destroy any leaders or militants, as well as terrorists who support, condone, and carry out these attacks.

Maybe it's not rational thinking and I've let too much emotion into it, but their comes a time when we stand up for who we are. Americans expect peace. We expect the pursuit of happiness. We also support any country who wishes to adopt this form of governmet. Those who attack this establishment see the natural order of humanity as one of subservience to "leaders" such as Bin Laden.

Well, we shall see how this plays out, but i wouldn't object if we retaliated against ALL enemies - just as Israel would.

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uhm, unless you guys tone down this rhetoric, this thread will be deleted.

I am NOT in support of ANY form of military action against a nation just because of the actions of a few of its subjects. Period.

Whoever did this will be caught (assuming they are, in fact, alive) and punished. Its that simple.

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