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Love, Peace, and the War on Afganistan


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AshSpear, OK, now I am going to ask you a big favor, please learn to make your posts more readable, use the quote tags, PLEASE!!!

Now, on to other things, we will take your post, unreadable as it is and try to go over it one at a time.


We should change this thread to "the complete ignorance of reality" thread.

What are you talking about 75 percent tax rate in Canada? What derranged part of your brain made that up? Do you even know where Canada is?

Pardon me? Part of my territory is the entire WEST HALF of Canada, I don't go there often anymore, because there is not much business there.

I have an engineer friend who makes over 200,000 canadian a year, 75% of his paycheck disapears in Taxes, income tax, property tax, fuel tax and all the other fun hidden taxes that you obviously have no inkling of. THIS IS FACT!!!


The system is also NOT a failure. It has its short-comings, no question. It has plenty of pluses. I have a good friend who's kidney don't work. He got a new one and it didn't cost him anything. He is on drugs for the rest of his life to prevent regection... those are paid for too.

When my grandfather died slowly of cancer it didn't put two generations of my family in debt. This isn't only people that can afford healthcare, this is everyone.

I am very glad that you have 2 examples of success for your health care system, but I can name around a dozen failures, that have all ended in Death, and that if they had been in the US, they would still be alive. Your 2 examples, compared to my dozen? sorry, not even close.

Your healthcare system SUCKS!! It doesn't even come close to the US healthcare system, not by a longshot, and there is plenty of proof for that. Also, your government is going broke trying to keep it going, your government, if they don't do something, will be bankrupt within a decade, if they don't pull thier heads out and privatise quickly.


Now. Lets look at some other things. Education. How much does it cost to get a university education in the US? I'm not even going to compare it to Canada, there is no point.

We won't even go there, you education system is almost as bad as your healthcare, and we won't call it an education, it is actually called indoctrination. The public schools here in the states are going in the same direction though, so we won't go there.

The universities? We won't go there either, yours may be less expensive for the student, but it is JUST as expensive. The only difference is that your taxpayers pay for it, rather then the student. TINSTAFL, "There is No Such Thing As a Free Lunch." Somebody pays, in your case it is the taxpayers and not the students.


Now lets look at the silly things people are saying. "The US is the most generous society in the world." Based on what? Your opinion? Canada has been voted, over and over again, the best place in the world to live. No one, but americans, have ever said that about the states.

Yes, if you want to live in a country where everything is FREE!!! TINSTAFL, somebody pays, and after living there and being milked for a few years, a lot of your immigrants are running for the US as fast as thier little cars can carry them across the borders.

And what the Heck does that have to do with generosity, when was the last time Canada sent money down here for a natural disaster, such as the California Earthquake, or a hurricane, or any other natural disaster, I'll be happy to tell you, NEVER!!!! Who is the FIRST country to send help through private donations, staff and shelter to ANY country that has had a Natural or manmade disaster, the US, that is who!!! We are the MOST giving country in the world, Why? because we have the MONEY from our CAPITALIST society!! We can afford to be generous.


"capitalism has always worked..." This, again, is not true. Original societies were not capitalist. The functioned on a barter system, and were generally what are now calld communes.

Where did you learn history? NEVER mind, I don't want to know. The barter system is capitalism at it's best!! What I make I trade to you for something you make, say I am a blacksmith, I make horseshoes, you are a dairy farmer, and you have milk, well, I will trade you 4 horseshoes for 20 gallons of milk, some cheese and maybe some cream.



"Socialism rewards NOTHING, whether you are the hard worker or the lazy worker, you get the same thing, therefore the hard worker will see that and therefore work less hard, and then EVERYONE suffers" There are other forms of reward other than money. You, obviously, can't see that.

Here we go with the liberal, I do it because I should, I do it because it is Moral and good!! Garbage.

If I do something well, and my society appreciates it, and likes it, then they PAY ME money, if it feels good to do it, then WHY NOT MAKE MONEY doing it? Because it wouldn't be right to make money off the backs of my fellow man? Yeah right, GET REAL!!! They would make money off of you if they could, and that I guarantee.

You are still a student, aren't you? You have no experience in the REAL world at all, this is all some kind of dream that you read out of a book, or were taught by a teacher. GUESS WHAT, it don't work in the real world!! HELLO!!!!


This is idiotic. People have found many solutions for many environmental problems. These are largely ignored because they are not immediatly as economically productive as other non-solution, so they are ignored by corporations. Capitalism lacks forsight. The fact is that ther ARE finit resources on this planet, and Capitalism is based on infinit growth. Any 2 year old that can add can understand this problem.

You have no clue what capitalism is, it is VERY obvious by that statement, capitalism is indeed infinite growth, but there are infinite solutions, and when they are needed, they WILL BE USED!!! And what is this continued garbage about finite resources, that is the biggest load of BS that I have seen yet, I see infinite resources, we will NEVER run out of resources, NOT EVER!!!

WHY is that you ask, well let's see, I see the first one being the sea, lots of resources there, then I see the moon, then I see Mars, then I see the asteroids, then I see the other moons, then I see the stars, do I need to go on? WE shall NEVER Run out of resources, capitalism will find a way to exploit it whereever it is. infinite growth with infinite resources, capitalism ALWAYS finds a way, ALWAYS!!!


I READ the communist manifesto. China and the former USSR are not communist societies. They only pretend to be.

Now I know you are Naive, The USSR and China both started out as your perfect little socialist/communist societies, but as they went along they were perverted into a centralized dictatorial government, this ALWAYS happens!! ALWAYS, history shows us as much, and then they eat themselves alive!! Unless they do what China is doing and allow a little capitalism and free enterprise into the mix, only problem with that is, that then the people want more, and the ONLY way for them to have more, is to become a democracy or a Republican form of government like the US. which allows mostly unfettered capitalism.


United States society is a perfect case in point. If you don't know your own statistics, that's your problem.

What the heck was that, I know my statistics, but my question is, what did you mean, care to elaborate a bit?


"Conclusion, Capitalism RAISES ALL boats, Socialism SINKS 99% of the boats"

You assume that all the boats are in the US. You ignore canibalistic forign policy.

Cannibalistic? excuse me, again, what are you talking about, that made absolutely no sense, canibalistic means domestic or the eating of oneself. So please elaborate, and try to make some sense this time.


This from a man that thinks the US is the savior of the world. Look at the results of your last few "Lets go save some ignorant backwards nation campaigns." Kosovo is a depleted uranium badland, but you sure saved them good. Read some news that doesn't come from CNN or another patriot american. Oh, and how many people that are calling me brainwashed voted for G. W. Bush? The man can barely read a teleprompter. Also, somone said the US was a perfect example of different cultures coexisiting in an atmosphere of personal respect. I've never heard an offical government speech that didn't involve the words "god bless america!" How do you think buddhists, hindus, atheists etc feel about that?

Another PC fanatic I see, but then again I should have expected that. You are obviously a liberal after all. And pardon me, but the Kosovo thing was asked of us by the UN, yes, your wonderful UN that you canadians love so much. We were just acting as the worlds police force again, not my fault Clinton was a whimp and licked the UN's boots every chance he got. And how are we able to afford these things, why wasn't Canada all in there helping out, why weren't you guys helping pay for it, why? BECAUSE we HAVE ALL THE money because of our capitalist society, that's why!! Our defense budget is greater then your national budget!!

And since when does God Bless America offend anyone? We have "In God We Trust" ON EVERY piece of paper money there is. By the way, just for your info, I am not a Christian, and it does NOT bother me in the least, nor does it bother my Hindu neighbor, nor my Buddhist friend, nor my Atheist down the street. If your offended, well, life is a B%^*&h. You have a right to be offended in this country, and if you are, well too fricking bad!!

Also, GW Bush is the best president we have had since Ronald Reagan, he is honest!! Unlike the last president, he does what he says he is going to do, unlike our last president. He makes very good decision based on ALL the facts, unlike our last president. Again, you show that you have no clue what a real president is. your naivete is showing through BIG time!!


Oh, and why shouldn't social responsability be forced? Why should responsability be optional? Why shouldn't consideration for the plight of other fellow human beings be mandatory?

Because that is called a POLICE state!! Ever heard of freedom of beliefs, how about freedom to do what you wish with your money without interference. Nope, can't have that. Well, once you start earning your own money, your tune will change. It is amazing how many socialists in college become capitalists once they get a job and start EARNING money.


Oh, and I AM Canadian. And I'm proud of it. I can go anywhere in the world, and when people find out I'm not an american they immediatly like me out of relief for the fact that I'm not an american. I can hang an american flag on my backpack, and walk around anywhere in the world and not get targeted for a violent act. Take your american flags to vietnam. I have access to medicare. I live in a country were we don't toss out a decent politician becaus of his personal affairs. I live in a country where the violent crime rate is actually going down! Who else can say that? Don't think crime and economics are related? If you don't, then your opinion isn't worth a damn thing anyway.

My sincere apologies to anyone I may have inadvertently offended. This post was meant primarily for people that tell me I'm brainwashed, and blab about how Canada is going to hell when the don't know a damn thing about what they are talking about.

I am glad that you are proud to be Canadian, that's GREAT!!!

Clinton was not a decent politician, he was a criminal and a traitor to this country, I think that the man should be rotting in a jail cell for the rest of his life, along with his slimey wife, but laws don't apply to liberals, because they feel for you, or feel you up in clintons case.

And actually, current studies by neutral companies has actually shown that your violent crime rate is going up, it's a real cute thing, if 1 person commits 5 crimes, then it is considered 1 crime in your country. Bet you didn't know that did you? That is how it is reported, nope, sorry, but your VIOLENT crime rate is rising, and at an alarming rate as well.

And actually, crime and the availability of guns is what is related, economics has little to do with crime. The more guns, the less crime, no matter what the economic condition.

No need to apologize, you haven't offended anyone, because you have proven nothing, the facts you state are if not wrong then pretty outlandish and not based on Real facts. so, no I am not offended.

Also, I probably know quite a bit more about it then you do, you see, the way your economy behaves, affects my bottom line, which means my Paycheck, so I NEED to know these things, so that I know when my commission check will be lower then usual.

Don't think I don't know what I am talking about, because I do, I talk to Canadians almost every week, and WE TALK about EVERYTHING!!! and I talk to the "WORKING CLASS"..... sorry, just had to use that phrase in this post somewhere.

So sorry, better try again, and this time, let's see some facts instead of all this emotion I see spewing forth.

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"Where I see it, the forcing of one group of your population to pay for another part is tantamount to the exact same thing that slavery is - forcing one group to better the lifestyle of another."

-What do you call denying a starving man food when you have more than enough? I call it murder.

"It is immoral to force someone to pay for someone who chooses not to work."

-Are you really so silly that you can't comprehend the fact that not all poor people are poor because they are lazy?

"If someone can't work, it is still immoral to make someone use their labor to provide for the person."

-So someone who can't work, deserve automatically to die?

"If someone is to give by choice, it has some value."

-Does a starving man care about the intention of his benefactor?

"Where is the dignity in collecting something you didn't earn?"

-There is no dignity in it, thats what motivates people to get off their buts and do something. Canada has universal access to welfare and unemployment insurance. Yet people on welfare make up a tiny minority of the population.

"At the same time, what is right about having your earnings taken from you because someone didn't work as hard as you?"

-Again, not all people are need through their own fault.

"I'm going to say that since it's foundation, no capitalist nation that allowed a vastly deregulated market economy has failed."

-You can say it all you want, it doesn't make it true. The great depression proved that regulation is nescessary to keep a capitalist market from collapse.

"In a socialist country, what rewards are there besides the satisfaction that you looted the hard workers to pay for the lazy ones?"

-The satisfaction that through you efforts, you have made the lives of everyone in your nation better, and that your strenght has compensated for other people's weakness. You said you like nationalism. That is about the only good sentiment that comes from nationalism.

"Capitalism also understands that if efficiency minimizes cost, it is a good investment. As most environmental concerns are myths or half truths, I find it hard to believe any so called "study" taken of the planet."

-What are you talking about? You think pollution is a hoax? Where do you get you facts? The Weekly World News? Do you think about the things you say?

I wasn't saying that there was a study done that stated that the worlds resources were finit. I mean that any idiot could see that there isn't an infinit supply of everything.

"I believe Nationalism is an inherently better policy than globalism. Because it maximizes lifestyle for the most competitive. It's Darwinism at work."

-That sounds like something hitler would have said. He was a nationalist too. Is competition the only noble acticity?

"G.W. Bush is also a much better president than both Clinton and his father. You are poking fun at a supposed disability. Roosevelt couldn't walk, are you going to poke fun at the leadership shown during WW2?"

-That means Roosevelt couldn't work hauling lumber. According to you that means he should die.

Being a halfwit isn't a disablity, it is a trajedy. Anyway, I was only pointing out that Bush was only a leader because someone else writes his speeches. I bet if his next speech was "bush is always right" you would believe him. I don't need to make fun of Bush. The rest of the civilized world already knows him for what he is. It is unfortunate you do not.

"Clinton wouldn't have done anything after Sept 11, but moan about how it's our fault."

-Don't take this the wrong way. What happened was a horrible horrible thing, but there are reasons the world in general has a distaste for the US. Clintons ability to understand this in spite of the horrible crime commited is what makes him a better man than Bush, who doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

"Bush is a good leader, because what he says, he does. Disagree with him or not, you have to admit he's honorable to his word."

-There is no such thing as an honorable politician. The system and public opinion dictates that there is a nescesity for decit and immorality. That's why I hate politics. Surely you are not so naive that you can't see this.

"Who cares how they feel? This country was founded on the principles of God. If they can't deal with the symbolism of our founders, they should either leave or shut up and take it. Erasing our national identity to please some moaning whining snivelling leftist is wrong."

-That's right $ilk, Kill em. I suggest concentration camps. Probably they care about how they feel. If you really gave a crap about your nation, you would care about how its citizens felt. You would also understand that you nation is founded upon the concept of immagration. Perhaps making people feel welcome would be a good idea.

Just out of morbid curiosity, if I don't beleive in god, and I swear an oath on the bible in a US court, do I still have to tell the truth? Why should I? Just to be clear, you aren't giving your word, you are giving gods word.

"Life is hard, life is intolerant of your wishes. Your idealism means nothing to the realities of world policy, admirable though it may be."

-I'm a realist too. But one's hopes, wishes, and moral founding must be in founded in the ideal, otherwise you've got no chance of standing strait in the real world.

"As you should be, nationalism is a good thing."

-No, it isn't a good thing. It's the kind of thing that start wars over distinctions that don't matter. I only invoked a false nationalism in order to distinguish myself from you.

"I guess Canada isn't located in North America?"

-This is my point exaclty. People from the US fail to realise that calling themselves american does not distinguish themselves from canadians, mexicans, brazilians, chileans... the list goes on. Perhapse if you started reffering to yourselves as something more appropriate like: United-States-of-America-ians, things would be better. Or maybe USAians for short. Then I could use the term american appropriatly.

"Since you are so sure of where you can go, why don't you try it?"

-I travel every chance I get. But I'm not taking an american flag with me. Why would I? I don't understand what your talking about. I'll happily go to vietnam, or cuba, or anywhere else I'm free of american toursts that are angry and yelling about how no one speaks english. I have actually gone places and have had people say to me "Canadian? Not american? Oh... very good!"

"So do I [have accees to medicare], what's your point?"

-My point was made, you just didn't bother to quote it. I shall reiterate: I have access to medicare, regardless of whether I can afford to pay for the insurance. When I go to a hospital, the first question is "what is wrong"" not "do you have insurance?"

"Somehow I don't trust your definition of "decent politician", one would think it's someone who can read a teleprompter and not someone who can lead."

-My definition of politician is someone that does a decent job at what they are supposed to do, as opposed to someone who has charisma and provides inspiration, but has no actual idea of what to do.

"I can point out cities in the United States which have virtually 100% gun ownership and have the lowest crime rates in the world.

I can also point out cities in the USA that have virtually 0% gun ownership and the highest crime rates in the world."

-You are wrong, but that is another argument.

"I believe that the ability to defend yourself and crime is related as well."

-You belief no more proves this than it proves the existence of god, or santa claus (Who is makes elves work slave labour so that lazy kids can have toys.)

"Menchise - I'm no longer going to call you a liberal anymore. I think you've earned the title of Socialist from my lips"

-Mine as well. Menchise, you rock.

Anyway, $ilk. You don't know what you are talking about. You spout crap: "environmental concerns are myths," canada has 75% tax rate. If you were reasonable, you'd be worth arguing with. I wish I could remember who said this, but I can't, but it is too apt to not be used "arguing with a man who has given up his reason is like giving medecine to the dead." In other words, I'm flogging a dead horse. We will never agree. I formally challenge you to a duel as soon as multi-player comes out.


"Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."

-Samuel Johnson

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: AshSpear ]

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It is obvious to me that BOTH AshSpear and Menchise are students with no REAL world experience. Both of your attitudes show extreme Naivete for how a capitalist system works.

I will no longer debate such obvious things with you, because of that VERY fact.

You have lots of booklearning, and that is good I suppose, but come and see me after working in the real world for 5-10 years and we'll see where you stand.

And AshSpears, your arguments still make absolutley no sense, because they have not a leg to stand on.

Both your ideas would destroy any nation that it was tried upon, any nation that became a socialist society like the one you are talking about, would have to A: kill thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people in order to be installed. B: would destroy whatever technology base there was in that country, why? because the private owners would destroy it before allowing it to be taken away from them. C: the people of that country would starve to death in a matter of months if not weeks.

Socialism has ALWAYS failed, whenever it was tried, IT IS ALWAYS perverted into something else.

Human Nature is what it is, and your dreaming is NOT going to change it!!

Capitalism goes with human nature and therefore is ALWAYS successful!! ALWAYS!!!

Sorry guys, but them's is the REAL world facts, not the fantasy world that you seem to live in.

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Menchise - I'm no longer going to call you a liberal anymore. I think you've earned the title of Socialist from my lips, because you actually have the conviction of your ideals unlike a liberal from Australia I've been arguing with elsewhere.




my eyes hurt.

LOL! I know how you feel, Tac.

Ouch! Responding to every point in this deluge is going to take forever, and I'm not in the mood to spend forever in a debate. So, to make things simpler, could all points about socialism in general go into the "Continuing the Debate" thread (preferably in note form so that I'm not flooded )? As I recall, this thread was about peace and war. So far, nobody has responded to my points on page two about how socialism/communism would end war and terrorism, and those are the only responses that I'm going to reply to in this thread from now on, otherwise I'll never leave the computer.

Hehe. It's not easy being the only Marxist (or whatever I am, although I seem to be Marxist) in the forum.

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Have you heard what is happening in Argentina?

It is a PERFECT example of what happens when Sociclist policies are implemented in a capitalist economy, EVERYONE loses.

I hope that we do not help them, to help them would only prolong the agony this country is going through. They need to deregulate, and privatize and get RID of the welfare state.

People actually think now, that the government OWES them food. This is what happens when the socialists decide to help every Tom Dick and Harry that don't have a job, and continue to do it as it's breaking thier piggy bank.

Canada is going to run into this exact situation in the near future, most if not ll capitalist societies that have had socialist policies forced on them by the government are going to collapse here in the next few years, unless something is done to privatize most if not all of the government programs. Argentina is the tip of the iceberg.

Thanks to those "we feel your pain", nonthinking moronic socialists we have in most governments nowadays.

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It's interesting that those who call G.W.B. an idiot fail to credit him for graduating from Yale(In 1968), and Harvard Business school (In 1975).

Earning a degree in History, and a Masters Degree in business administration.

And earned a personal fortune on his own through his knowledge.

The reason I support President Bush's ideas is because of his ideals:


He has said often that Americans cannot depend on the federal government to solve all of society's problems, but must be willing to help their fellow citizens themselves. "We can now say, without question, that the belief that government could solve people's problems instead of people solving people's problems was wrong and misguided. That does not mean we should not help people. It means we should look for more effective means of help. We must reduce the reach and scope of the federal government, returning it to its proper, limited role, and push freedom and responsibility back to local governments, to neighborhoods, and to individuals....

What he advocates is far superior to forced handouts.

Here is another quote from President Bush:


"The problem with government bureaucracies is not only that they are too costly. They are also too cold. Often when a life is broken, it can be rebuilt only by another caring, concerned human being -- someone whose actions say, 'I love you, I believe in you, and I'm in your corner.' This is compassion with a human face and a human voice."

And here's why I don't understand why socialists don't agree with him.


One of his concerns is making sure that everyone in the United States has full economic opportunity. "Ours is an age of unmeasured prosperity...," he has said. "Yet, in this plenty, there is need. At the edges of affluent communities, there are those living in prosperity's shadow. The same economy that is a miracle for millions of Americans is a mystery for millions as well....Our newspapers and television programs praise and profile the winners in our high-tech economy. But we must never become a winner-take-all society. Our economy must also honor and reward the hard work of factory and field, of waiting tables and driving cabs -- not just enterprise, but sheer effort, not just technology, but toil....It will be said of our times that we were prosperous. But let it also be said of us that we used our wealth wisely. We invested our prosperity with purpose. We opened the gates of opportunity. And all were welcomed into the full promise of American life."

The president's vision also extends beyond the borders of the United States. "The world seeks America's leadership," he writes in his autobiography, "looks for leadership from a country whose values are freedom and justice and equality. Ours should not be the paternalistic leadership of an arrogant big brother, but the inviting and welcoming leadership of a great and noble nation. We have an individual responsibility to our families and our communities, and a collective responsibility as citizens of the greatest and freest nation in the world. America must not retreat within its borders. Our greatest export is freedom, and we have a moral obligation to champion it throughout the world."

"If you give me your trust, I will honor it.Grant me a mandate, and I will use it....Give me the opportunity to lead this nation, and I will lead," - President George W. Bush

And he hasn't had to resort to your so-called "necessary" lying.

"America will be prosperous if we embrace free trade. I want to end tariffs and break down barriers everywhere, entirely, so the whole world trades in freedom. By opening markets for our producers abroad, we enhance our prosperity at home. The fearful build walls. The confident tear them down. I am confident in American workers and farmers and producers. I am confident that America's best is the best in the world. And America should not use food as a diplomatic weapon. We are too great a nation to starve people to achieve our foreign policy goals. As we export American goods and services, we also export American values." - President G.W. Bush

He's advocating the same thing you are, why don't you agree>?

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And yeah Jaguar I've somewhat been keeping up on Argentina - especially Buenos Aires for the past few days.

The only other points I have to make are that :

1. Government is not responsible for taking care of everyone's basic needs (food, water, shelter).

2. People are responsible for their own decisions/actions - no one else.

3. An individual has a responsibility to care for themselves. The only way in the U.S.A that someone is unable is if they cannot move or leave the house due to physical, medicinal, or mental reasons. Those people should be eligible for charities.

4. Since when should people not be responsible for their own health care? Employers should not be responsible, government should not be responsible. If someone is unable, there is always charity and compassionate city governments.

5. In the United States you have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Only the right to life is honored under Socialism.

I'm gonna step back off my soapbox for a bit.

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Do you guys even know where the term liberal comes from? It comes from the same place the concept of the free market comes from. John Stuart Mill anyone?

It is so beautifully ironic that you call me a bleeding hart liberal.

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We know where the term liberal comes from, the founding fathers were liberals, but the modern term means something entirely different now, or hadn't you noticed?

You may think that you are smart, but we have had this conversation with Menchise already.

You need to read the forums some more and go back, probably close to a year. We have had MANY of these debates.

We enjoy them with Menchise, he has actual convictions, even if they are misplaced, but he will get there, he is still in school. Once he gets out into the real world, he will find out what we are talking about.

So catch up and then come and talk to us, but your little shot there was really silly, what? you actually think that we are stupid or something? We're NOT, that I guarantee you!!

We've been having these debates for a very long time, and you breaking in here with statements that have been debated over and over and over again, with no REAL facts to back them, and NO REAL clue what a capitalism truly is, makes you sound pretty silly as well.

When you do some more research, had some time to really learn what we are discussing, then jump into the conversation, until then, Please be quiet.

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Do you guys even know where the term liberal comes from? It comes from the same place the concept of the free market comes from. John Stuart Mill anyone?

It is so beautifully ironic that you call me a bleeding hart liberal.

Attempting to change the subject....

And yes you've got the trademark of a liberal.

Seriously, actually use some facts or at least well-researched theories before popping in and throwing insults that make you look even worse when we shoot your points down.

You said earlier in the thread:

"I've read Marx!" or something to that effect. So have I.

Rule 1 : Know your enemy.

Why not start yourself off with Milton Freedman or someone who understands the purpose of American liberty + the Free Market.

He's not as boring as Menchise claimed, I actually enjoyed his book Capitalism and Freedom.

Go read the Continuing the Debate thread and watch our back and forth trench wars.

Sometimes our debates get heated, but Menchise and I and Jaguar can still work together - for instance me and Menchise did alot in AW until we stopped going too much.

I don't dislike Menchise as a person, but that doesn't mean I don't disagree with his current ideas.

Perhaps there are some cultures that would enjoy being dominated by their leaders, or by a system - not Americans.

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Here's some food for thought:

"Politicians never accuse you of 'greed' for wanting other people's money --- only for wanting to keep your own money." (Joseph Sobran)

"America's abundance was created not by public sacrifices to "the common good," but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America's industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages adn cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance -- and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way." (Ayn Rand)

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other."


"The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods." [H. L. Mencken]

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." (H. L. Mencken.)

This next quote sounds like someone you would agree with AshSpear

"It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole ... that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual. .... This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture .... we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow man." (Adolph Hitler, 1933)

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." (President Bill Clinton, USA Today, March 11, 1993, Page 2A)

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society." (Hillary Clinton, 1993)

When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared with one man? (Henry David Thoreau)

Fascism finds it necessary, at the outset, to take away from the ordinary human being what he has been taught and has grown to cherish the most; personal liberty. And it can be affirmed, without falling into exaggeration, that a curtailment of personal liberty not only has proved to be, but necessarily must be, a fundamental condition of the triumph of Fascism. (Mario Palmeiri)

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

- Milton Friedman

The meaning of economic freedom is this: that the individual is in a position to choose the way in which he wants to integrate himself into the totality of society.

- Ludwig von Mises

Competition on the market aims at assigning to every individual that function in the social system in which he can render to all his fellow men the most valuable of the services he is able to perform.

- Ludwig von Mises


All people, however fanatical they may be in their zeal to disparage and to fight capitalism, implicitly pay homage to it by passionately clamoring for the products it turns out.

- Ludwig von Mises

What pays under capitalism is satisfying the common man, the customer. The more people you satisfy, the better for you.

- Ludwig von Mises

Men have been taught that the highest virtue is not to achieve, but to give. Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution- or there will be nothing to distribute. The need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. Yet we are taught to admire the second-hander who dispenses gifts he has not produced above the man who made the gifts possible. We praise an act of charity. We shrug at an act of achievement.

- Ayn Rand

The great crimes of the twentieth century were committed not by money-grubbing capitalists but by dedicated idealists. Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler were contemptuous of money. The passage from the nineteenth to the twentieth century has been a passage from considerations of money to considerations of power. How naive the cliche that money is the root of evil!

- Eric Hoffer

The notion of a farseeing and despotic statesman, who can lay down plans for ages yet unborn, is a fancy generated by the pride of the human intellect to which facts give no support.

- Walter Bagehot

Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what has worked with what sounded good. In area after area- crime, education, housing, race relations- the situation has gotten worse after the bright new theories were put into operation. The amazing thing is that this history of failure and disaster has neither discouraged the social engineers nor discredited them.

- Thomas Sowell

It is precisely those things which belong to "the people" which have historically been despoiled- wild creatures, the air, and waterways being notable examples. This goes to the heart of why property rights are socially important in the first place. Property rights mean self-interested monitors. No owned creatures are in danger of extinction. No owned forests are in danger of being leveled. No one kills the goose that lays the golden egg when it is his goose.

- Thomas Sowell

If an exchange between two parties is voluntary, it will not take place unless both believe they will benefit from it. Most economic fallacies derive from the neglect of this simple insight, from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of another.

- Milton Friedman

...economic history is a long record of government policies that failed because they were designed with a bold disregard for the laws of economics.

- Ludwig von Mises

Economic power is exercised by means of a positive, by offering men a reward, an incentive, a payment, a value; political power is exercised by means of a negative, by the threat of punishment, injury, imprisonment, destruction. The businessman's tool is values; the bureaucrat's tool is fear.

- Ayn Rand

I wonder how many of the people who profess to believe in the leveling ideas of collectivism and egalitarianism really just believe that they themselves are good for nothing. I mean, how many leftists are animated by a quite reasonable self-loathing? In their hearts they know that they are not going to become scholars or inventors or industrialists or even ordinary good kind people. So they need a way to achieve that smugness for which the left is so justifiably famous. They need a way to achieve self-esteem without merit. Well, there is politics. In an egalitarian world everything will be controlled by politics, and politics requires no merit.

- P.J. O'Rourke

Not understanding the process of a spontaneously-ordered economy goes hand-in-hand with not understanding the creation of resources and wealth. And when a person does not understand the creation of resources and wealth, the only intellectual alternative is to believe that increasing wealth must be at the cost of someone else. This belief that our good fortune must be an exploitation of others may be the taproot of false prophecy about doom that our evil ways must bring upon us.

- Julian Simon

American prosperity and American free enterprise are both highly unusual in the world, and we should not overlook the possibility that the two are connected.

- Thomas Sowell

It makes no difference whether government controls allegedly favor the interests of labor or business, of the poor or the rich, of a special class or a special race: the results are the same. The notion that a dictatorship can benefit any one social group at the expense of others is a worn remnant of the Marxist mythology of class warfare, refuted by half a century of factual evidence. All men are victims and losers under a dictatorship; nobody wins-except the ruling clique.

- Ayn Rand

The monstrous evils of the twentieth century have shown us that the greediest money grubbers are gentle doves compared with money-hating wolves like Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler, who in less than three decades killed or maimed nearly a hundred million men, women, and children and brought untold suffering to a large portion of mankind.

- Eric Hoffer

If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose- because it contains all the others- the fact that they were the people who created the phrase "to make money." No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity- to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created.

- Ayn Rand

Our supplies of natural resources are not finite in any economic sense. Nor does past experience give reason to expect natural resources to become more scarce. Rather, if history is any guide, natural resources will progressively become less costly, hence less scarce, and will constitute a smaller proportion of our expenses in future years.

- Julian Simon

One of the most fashionable notions of our times is that social problems like poverty and oppression breed wars. Most wars, however, are started by well-fed people with time on their hands to dream up half-baked ideologies or grandiose ambitions, and to nurse real or imagined grievances.

- Thomas Sowell

The rich adopt novelties and become accustomed to their use. This sets a fashion which others imitate. Once the richer classes have adopted a certain way of living, producers have an incentive to improve the methods of manufacture so that soon it is possible for the poorer classes to follow suit. Thus luxury furthers progress. Innovation "is the whim of an elite before it becomes a need of the public. The luxury today is the necessity of tomorrow." Luxury is the roadmaker of progress: it develops latent needs and makes people discontented. In so far as they think consistently, moralists who condemn luxury must recommend the comparatively desireless existence of the wild life roaming in the woods as the ultimate ideal of civilized life.

- Ludwig von Mises

We clamor for equality chiefly in matters in which we ourselves cannot hope to attain excellence. To discover what a man truly craves but knows he cannot have we must find the field in which he advocates absolute equality. By this test Communists are frustrated Capitalists.

- Eric Hoffer

The college idealists who fill the ranks of the environmental movement seem willing to do absolutely anything to save the biosphere, except take science courses and learn something about it.

- P.J. O'Rourke

To desire the attainment of this equality or superiority by the particular means of others being brought down to our own level, or below it, is, I think, the distinct notion of envy.

- Joseph Butler

A society that puts equality...ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom.

- Milton Friedman

There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally and attempting to make them equal.

- F.A. Hayek

Those who see their lives as spoiled and wasted crave equality and fraternity more than they do freedom. If they clamor for freedom, it is but freedom to establish equality and uniformity. The passion for equality is partly a passion for anonymity: to be one thread of the many which make up a tunic; one thread not distinguishable from the others. No one can then point us out, measure us against others and expose our inferiority.

- Eric Hoffer

...democracy can be interpreted to assert not only equality before the law but also essentialistic identity in all respects. This is expressed in the claim, "All men are created equal," which is something very different from the statement, "All men have equal rights and are equal before the law." Anyone who believes in the genetic uniqueness of every individual thereby believes in the conclusion, "No two individuals are created equal."

- Ernst Mayr

Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.

- Alexis de Tocqueville

I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves, it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others. Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.

- Abraham Lincoln

All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow.

- H.L. Mencken

Freedom has cost too much blood and agony to be relinquished at the cheap price of rhetoric.

- Thomas Sowell

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

- Edward Abbey

The fact that slaughter [battle] is a horrifying spectacle must make us take war more seriously, but [it does] not provide an excuse for gradually blunting our swords in the name of humanity. Sooner or later someone will come along with a sharp sword and hack off our arms.

- Carl von Clausewitz

Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).

- Ayn Rand

Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it.

- Thomas Sowell

Mystical references to "society" and its programs to "help" may warm the hearts of the gullible but what it really means is putting more power in the hands of bureaucrats.

- Thomas Sowell

The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer's money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to "help."

- Thomas Sowell

The common good comes before the private good.

- Nazi slogan

Social justice is a semantic fraud from the same stable as People's Democracy.

- C. Curran

Envy plus rhetoric equals "social justice."

- Thomas Sowell

And try reading this : Who pays what taxes?

An extensive collection of quotes for you to browse and apply to your own arguments good or bad. I had about twice as many, but don't want the list to get too long.

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Come on $iLk, give me more of those!!

Those were excellent in EVERY regard!!

Thomas Sowell, how I love that man's mind, he thinks so clearly, and so succinctly, my other favorite of course would be Walter Williams, but that is another story, I have actually corresponded with Walter Williams Via E-mail, what a mind, what a patriot, and he calls himself and OLD fashioned REAL liberal, and of course you and I know what that means..

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I sent you a PM Jaguar.

Yeah I went back and looked, Walter Williams has commentary in the book the Myths that Divide us, and I directly quoted one of his articles in the Racial Profiling thread.

The thing that sets him apart distinctly from those who disagree with him is that he thinks.

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