Jump to content

New Debate :Israel vs Palestine/Arab States


Hunted
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 290
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Menchise, I see what you say as more food for thought than anything. I see that you are trying to throw an opposing view so that "crazy right wingers" have something else to consider besides a certain course of action. It's the point of view of the "other side" so to speak. I cannot fault you necessarily for this, yet many times, it seems very naive'. The world is not, and will never be ordered and correct. There will always be conflict. But saving lives is what's important, and sometimes to save life, sacrifices must be made. You cannot expect to aquiece to the demands of everyone who has a beef with Western civilization and expect problems to end.

In the end it comes down to people taking responsibility for their own actions - something many people nowadays do not do. These people in Arab nations do not accept responsibility for their own actions, they seek to blame everyone else, those who actually succeed for their problems.

Success comes from helping yourself, not being nurtured along like a two year old your entire life. Thus socialism is often a system that encourages personal failure and lack of self worth, and I see it as the ultimate degradation of human character when put into practice.

"wouldn't it be nice if..."

Yeah it would, but life isn't perfect - people are definitely not perfect, therefore a perfect system cannot be built on imperfect parts of the whole.

An analogy would be, building the perfect automobile engine, with rusted components, and P.O.S. parts. Doesn't work, but... "wouldn't it be nice if it would work?"

That's the inherent danger in socialism.

Okay, I've said enough about socialism. Back to your regularly scheduled debate

Go Israel!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by J.Smith:

*looks around and says quietly*

These people have been fighting each other since biblical times. What in the wolrd makes people think that peace will come in a few years. I belive that fighting each other is a major part of their culture. And the only way to change that is to change their culture. Which if possible will take much longer that two or three years.

Sadly this is all too true. If the Isrealis and the Muslim world can find a path to peace in the region then there may actually be hope for the human race. Right now, I'm not too optomistic. It's just never been in our nature to seek a non violent path to conflict resolution. As opposed to other beasts on the planet, we actually have the capacity to reason, to use wisdom, and yet seldom do we do it.

I hope that they find peace in the region, but it won't happen in my life time.

Oh and guys;

Socialism, and Socialist governments HAVE worked, just as successfully or unsuccessfully as any other form of government, in countries like Germany, Sweden, Canada and England to name a few. One could get into a long debate about the nature of socialism and which government was more socialist than another, one could get into an argument about whether or not Tony Blair is a real Socialist, BUT WE WON'T. It's not the purpose of this thread. You can criticize Menchise all you want for his ideas. That's fine. But let's not get into a 'socialism is the demon of the world.' debate. PLEASE.

[ 04-13-2002, 09:24: Message edited by: Kush ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

The world is not, and will never be ordered and correct. There will always be conflict.

On what do you base that assumption?

quote:

But saving lives is what's important, and sometimes to save life, sacrifices must be made. You cannot expect to aquiece to the demands of everyone who has a beef with Western civilization and expect problems to end.

I'm not suggesting such a thing.

quote:

In the end it comes down to people taking responsibility for their own actions - something many people nowadays do not do. These people in Arab nations do not accept responsibility for their own actions, they seek to blame everyone else, those who actually succeed for their problems.

What actions? I assume that you're not referring to the acts of terrorism since they are applications of their so-called blame on everyone else, and the unnamed actions which you say they don't take responsibility for occurred before the application of such blame.

quote:

Success comes from helping yourself, not being nurtured along like a two year old your entire life.

I agree.

quote:

Thus socialism is often a system that encourages personal failure and lack of self worth, and I see it as the ultimate degradation of human character when put into practice.

Socialism is not about nurturing people like two year olds; it's about working people receiving what they earned as working people instead of receiving what the market says they're worth as commodities.

quote:

Yeah it would, but life isn't perfect - people are definitely not perfect, therefore a perfect system cannot be built on imperfect parts of the whole.

It doesn't take perfection to make something that works.

quote:

That's the inherent danger in socialism.

What's dangerous is the growing indifference to injustice that is spreading throughout our current society. Many people have become so demoralized by previous failures to change society for the better that they have given up on the prospect. That is how civilization stagnates.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:


No it doesn't. To conform to such desires is to make one culture dominant. Any culture that cannot survive without state-sanctioned domination is not a real culture; it's statist propaganda. The end of the state system is the end of such destructive influences. I see no reason why Islam or Judaism would require such power to exist unless the culture has been perverted by the propaganda of state or pseudo-state entities, such as the PLO's Covenent of 1968 and Ben-Gurion's concept of racial democracy. The dismantling of the state system will separate the religion from the propaganda.

Yeah, right. Now that is a pipe dream. I'd like to see someone try to get Muslim extremist states to serve a collective good of those that don't agree with their philosophies.

Socialism won't work at all due to hundreds of economic factors. It especially won't work, however, due to the nature of one serving the all. Too many "ones" will only serve to a select group.

quote:


What about when a government uses force on its own people to defend its power? Is that not terrorism? Of course it is!

Of course it's NOT! It's called "policing". The only time that it would be terrorism is when the MAJORITY of people under that government stands against the government.

By your definitions (which are extremely unfounded), throwing tear gas into an unruly crowd is a form of non-lethal terrorism. Attacking an organized mob's drug warehouse would be terrorism. I don't buy that, and I can't see how any thinking man would.

quote:


It's not a big stretch to say that using force on another people to defend one's power is also terrorism, even when it's immediately necessary. War is just a grandiose euphemism that is used when terrorism is believed to be necessary.

Not really. Apparently you missed the part of the word "terrorism" that says "terror".

Terrorism is to find a resolution by using terror. War is a find a resolution by using force. While the use of force may cause terror, it is not terrorism due to the fact that the force employed is the primary reason for the achievement of goals.

Terrorism's force is NOT at ALL the primary reason for it's acheivements. Bombing children doesn't actually accomplish a logistical end, while war does.

There is a substative difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:


On what do you base that assumption?

I don't mean to speak for $ilk, but I'm guessing he's basing that "assumption" on several thousand years of human history. Oh yeah -- and the fact that we're even conflicted right HERE.

Where's your precedence?

quote:


Socialism is not about nurturing people like two year olds; it's about working people receiving what they earned as working people instead of receiving what the market says they're worth as commodities.

How do you measure what is earned? Output. If everyone recieves equally regardless of output, you then have a shortfall. Economics 101.

quote:


It doesn't take perfection to make something that works.

If that something that works requires perfection, then it does.

quote:


What's dangerous is the growing indifference to injustice that is spreading throughout our current society. Many people have become so demoralized by previous failures to change society for the better that they have given up on the prospect. That is how civilization stagnates.

If you're worried about the stagnation of civilization, you should be cheering the next great war. Throughout history civilization has made its greatest strides through conflict.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't feel bad about speaking for me aramike, that witty retort in your first part is exactly what I had planned to post before you wrote it

Menchise, the thing I see is that there are two kinds of people in this world. There are those who get there heads up in the clouds with fantasies, and there are those who face (and accept) the brutal cold unforgiving reality of life and responsibility.

You can imagine how great it would be if everyone was a perfect worker who contributed to the whole and had such great ideals for the benefit of mankind. I look at the reality of life and see people who do things like write "Thundercats" erotic fan fiction.

If anything could have turned me off of the path of each man being the same and as worthy as the next, the above link would have cured me.

Sometimes it's best to worry about yourself and your immediate community, because as far as I'm concerned humanity is truly beyond saving

quote:

What actions? I assume that you're not referring to the acts of terrorism since they are applications of their so-called blame on everyone else, and the unnamed actions which you say they don't take responsibility for occurred before the application of such blame.


I'm referring to something as simple as refusing to take responsibility for their economic progress. Or the way they live. If people want to willingly join the "civilized" world, they find it more than easy to do. It's people who have some "great cause" that end up screwing over the rest of their country. If they would all simply worry about what is best for themselves...

People end up where they are in life by choice. Poor, rich, middle class - these are natural occurences when human beings are allowed to function on their own merits. All people are not equal, we are created equal, but our achievments and downfalls differentiate us throughout life. Fundamentally, Bill Gates is not a better man than I (I believe), yet he is infinitely more successful than I am.

To artificially create a system which places a glass ceiling over the heads of over-achievers, and lifts up underachievers is truly cheating everyone of their self worth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Terrorism is to find a resolution by using terror. War is a find a resolution by using force. While the use of force may cause terror, it is not terrorism due to the fact that the force employed is the primary reason for the achievement of goals.

Terrorism's force is NOT at ALL the primary reason for it's acheivements. Bombing children doesn't actually accomplish a logistical end, while war does.

There is a substative difference.[/QB]

i agree with you on those points aramike.

however i would just like to point out that even if we "wipe-out" terrorism in the world, it will probably still exist because hate and prejudice are part of human nature. correct me if im wrong.

even if we destroy AL-Qaeda and other organizations like that, terrorism will still exist because of the hatred people feel towards other people.

as for the prejudice/racism part, it still and probably will go on in the U.S. unless people can REALLY except people for what they are. in my school people make fun of my Cuban background jsut because "your people came over on a boat" or the type of people that say "Row, row, row your boat is Cuban's national athem."

anyway these are just my 2 cents and debate all about if you want to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Yeah, right. Now that is a pipe dream. I'd like to see someone try to get Muslim extremist states to serve a collective good of those that don't agree with their philosophies.

Why would there be any need to convince extremist states to serve a collective good when those states would no longer exist?

quote:

Socialism won't work at all due to hundreds of economic factors. It especially won't work, however, due to the nature of one serving the all. Too many "ones" will only serve to a select group.

Why does any one serve all in any organization or group? A common cause. The common cause of socialism is in the interests of all working people, regardless of race, gender, religion, etc.

quote:

Of course it's NOT! It's called "policing".

Same act. Same purpose. Different actors. Policing is a description of a 'legitimate' use of terror.

quote:

The only time that it would be terrorism is when the MAJORITY of people under that government stands against the government.

What about when a minority is being violently persecuted? Is that not terrorism? How many people does it take before it becomes terrorism?

quote:

By your definitions (which are extremely unfounded), throwing tear gas into an unruly crowd is a form of non-lethal terrorism.

Why does anyone use tear gas? To disperse crowds. What does tear gas do? Irritates and/or inflames the mucous membranes. How does that force crowds to disperse? Because the sensation of feeling your insides burning up is terrorizing.

quote:

Attacking an organized mob's drug warehouse would be terrorism. I don't buy that, and I can't see how any thinking man would.

It's a legitimate use of terror.

quote:

Not really. Apparently you missed the part of the word "terrorism" that says "terror".

Terrorism is to find a resolution by using terror. War is a find a resolution by using force. While the use of force may cause terror, it is not terrorism due to the fact that the force employed is the primary reason for the achievement of goals.

Terrorism's force is NOT at ALL the primary reason for it's acheivements. Bombing children doesn't actually accomplish a logistical end, while war does.

There is a substative difference.

By your definition, the Hezbollah is no longer a terrorist group because now they're using military grade weapons in their attempt to siege northern Israel. The only difference is in the effectiveness of the weapons, which is not a substantive difference.

quote:

I don't mean to speak for $ilk, but I'm guessing he's basing that "assumption" on several thousand years of human history. Oh yeah -- and the fact that we're even conflicted right HERE.

This is a debate (an exchange of ideas), not a conflict (an imposition of ideas).

quote:

Where's your precedence?

The constant, relentless efforts by people for peace.

quote:

How do you measure what is earned? Output. If everyone recieves equally regardless of output, you then have a shortfall. Economics 101.

It's not about receiving equally, it's about receiving what is earned. That is receiving from the output relative to the input (a.k.a. getting out what you put in). In capitalism, the property owner receives the lion's share of the output while the workers receive the bread crumbs, yet it is the workers who contributed most of the productive input. Sure, the owner may have kickstarted production with capital investment, but it was the labour of the workers that made it productive.

quote:

If that something that works requires perfection, then it does.

Socialism does not require perfection, and it does not require people to be the same. All it needs is the application of its common cause to all working people.

quote:

If you're worried about the stagnation of civilization, you should be cheering the next great war. Throughout history civilization has made its greatest strides through conflict.

Civilization has made its greatest strides through revolution; the revolution of Feudalism over Slavery, and of Capitalism over Feudalism. I am cheering the next revolution: Socialism over Capitalism.

quote:

To artificially create a system which places a glass ceiling over the heads of over-achievers, and lifts up underachievers is truly cheating everyone of their self worth.

That is what capitalism does. It places a glass ceiling over the producers of wealth (the proletariat) while lifting up the inheritors of wealth (the bourgeoisie).

Socialism aims to remove the ceiling and the lifters (the free development of each as the precondition for the free development of all).

[ 04-13-2002, 22:40: Message edited by: Menchise ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Menchise,

You need to get out of school and go get a REAL job, then maybe you will see what the REAL world is like.

This fantasy you live in is BEYOND me. I am just so stunned that someone as obviously as intelligent as you, would fall into this trap of socialism. Socialism is a dream thought up by a bunch of intelligentsia elitists who have NOT A CLUE how the REAL world works.

Get out of school, get a REAL job and come back and talk to me in a year, then we may speak the same language, but until then, your fantasy is just that, a fantasy, that cannot and will not come to fruition. It is AGAINST ALL human nature.

The only times that socialism has been tried it has destroyed that which it tried to save or create, and until you figure out that IT CANNOT WORK, and will NEVER work, you will live in a world of disapointment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

This fantasy you live in is BEYOND me. I am just so stunned that someone as obviously as intelligent as you, would fall into this trap of socialism. Socialism is a dream thought up by a bunch of intelligentsia elitists who have NOT A CLUE how the REAL world works.

I am sure that the same thing was said to the intelligentsian dreamers of capitalism way back when feudalism was the real world.

quote:

Get out of school, get a REAL job and come back and talk to me in a year, then we may speak the same language, but until then, your fantasy is just that, a fantasy, that cannot and will not come to fruition. It is AGAINST ALL human nature.

That's what people said to Mary Wollstonecraft when she wrote about women having equal rights.

quote:

The only times that socialism has been tried it has destroyed that which it tried to save or create, and until you figure out that IT CANNOT WORK, and will NEVER work, you will live in a world of disapointment.

The only times that socialism has been tried it has either been over-centralised, hijacked by psychotic dictators, isolated from the rest of the world, or sabotaged by military coups.

It took approximately 200 years for France to build a lasting republic after overthrowing the feudal monarchy, and they went through most of the above. Should they have given up after Napolean?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Menchise,

Human nature being what it is, socialism can NEVER work, it will ALWAYS be hijacked, ALWAYS.

There are those that hunger for power, and those that hunger for it will do anything to get it and to keep it.

Capitalism works because it takes into consideration Human nature. As a matter of fact, without Human nature, capitalism would not work.

Those of us that feel the need to succeed, the need to excel, we thrive in capitalism, those that wish to do one thing and are comfortable with that one thing, THRIVE in capitalism. Anyone can and will thrive in capitalism, it is self correcting, it grows, it expands, it lifts ALL boats. Just as a republican form of government with a true Bill of Rights will thrive until it is perverted into what it is not.

Capitalism is the best system so far that takes into account human nature, look at the US, it is the biggest and greatest country ever created, why? because of capitalism, our poverty level is joke, less then $20,000 a year and you are impoverished, China, less then $300 a year is normal, it is the average, USSR was the same way. Socialism CANNOT work because no one owns anything, and therefore does not care about it. Personal ownership creates personal responsibility and pride in that ownership and therefore will thrive. Given an option most people will try and do the best they can with the skills and intelligence they have, and in a capitalism they can do that, in a socialism they never get the chance, they are placed in the puzzle arbitrarily, where they are needed. Whether they have an interest in that occupation or not. In capitalism, too many doctors, price for doctors goes down, making less doctors. In socialism, there is not that self correcting mechanism. THERE HAS TO BE CENTRAL control of some sort or another, telling people where they can and cannot fit in. That central control is what perverts it and makes it unworkable, also the fact that there is nothing to motivate the workers to work harder.

I want to make more money, I work harder, and I make more money, in socialism, I want to make more money, well, too bad, and therefore my motivation is gone.

Capitalism lifts all boats, creates jobs, creates goods that are needed, and creates goodwill and motivated people. This is another reason we have this war. Israel is a democracy, it is also a capitalist society. It is RICH, those that do not have that opportunity are jealous and wish to take that which they have NOT worked for and therefore do not deserve. The "Palestinians" do not have a democracy, they do not have a capitalist society, why? because they are run by those same power hungry people that I mentioned to you earlier. They wish to make Israel the scapegoat for why thier people are in such bad shape. It is Israels fault that you live in squalor, it is Israels fault that you live without food and money. Nevermind that we, the leaders of you do not give you the opportunity necessary for you to succeed, we do not want you to succeed, we want you miserable, that is what keeps us in power. THe worse off you are, the better and easier it is for us to use Israel as the scapegoat to stay in power.

Human Nature Menchise, it can be good and it can be evil. capitalism is a way to put that human nature to good use. And it works, look at the US, we lost almost a trillion dollars with that terrorist attack, we suffered, but it NEVER came near to destroying us. Name me one country, just one, that would survive, let alone prosper after such an incident.

YOU CAN'T, and that is because we are a capitalist society that uses human nature for the benefit of ourselves. I work to support MY family, I WORK to take care of MYSELF. I WORK FOR ME!!! That is why it works!! and because I work for MYSELF, I create other jobs through the products that I buy for MYSELF, I make others rich by buying products that they produce for ME.

Throwing that "it's good for society" crap is just that, CRAP, and will never stick, but throw out that, "It's good for YOU" out there, and it will work EVERY time. I work for me, NOT YOU, NOT ARAMIKE, NOT GOALIE, NOT ANYONE BUT ME. I make others successful, my boss mainly, because I want to make myself money, and therefore make him money as well. IT WORKS, and it WORKS far beyond what most imagine!!!

You think that the SC would have created this game in a socialist system. Very few people play it when you compare it to other games. It is a NICHE title. In a socialism, it would never have had a chance. WHY? because the central controllers would have looked at Derek and said, we don't need this game, there is no NEED for it, therefore, we are sending you off to the plant to put together automobiles or televisions or something. Without capitalism and a capitalist society, Battlecruiser would not exist, and I can name around a billion other products that would NOT exist without capitalism. It thrives on greed, it thrives on personal want, it thrives on luxury type items. It THRIVES period, because of the very human nature that makes SOCIALISM IMPOSSIBLE.

Human nature, it all comes down to that in the end, and without taking that into consideration, ALL other systems, sooner or later will fail. Capitalism uses human nature, actually it depends on it, that is why it works so well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was trying to mix the 2 of them, Israel is an example of capitalism at it's best, and the "Palestinians" are an example of Human Nature at it's worst. The "Palestinians" blame Israel for thier plight, and since Israel is so rich, it rings true, because they want what Israel has. They do not realize that they could do that for themselves as well, but thier leadership won't allow it.

It is human nature, if the "palestinians" had the same opportunities that the Israeli's have, we would not be talking about suicide bombers and a bumnch of crazy power hungry fundamentalists.

Human nature, use it for good and become rich, or use it for power and destroy.

This whole war comes down to one thing, the economic well being of the people involved, the people that have a capitalist free enterprise system, which is necessary with a democracy, are being attacked by those that are controlled by a terrorist socioeconomic system. The Israelis produce, the "Palestinians" do not. If the "Palestinians" were allowed to have the SAME system as the Israelis, those that have power over them, would not have power over them and this war would not be taking place.

Capitalism=peace, despotic controlled=war, easy if you ask me. VERY obvious.

[ 04-14-2002, 14:40: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

I took a left at Israel and stumbled into a socialism debate?

Invariably it usually does as long as some people still believe that system will solve all the world's problems.

Convince all the people of the world that they can work towards a better time for humanity... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Seriously... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

People don't like to work period. People also don't like each other. Your average person isn't as high minded with ideology as your average socialist is. Give them their beer and television and Sunday night football and they are perfectly happy. Expect them to work for the "betterment" of humanity and expect to get dissappointed. A lot.

I know it sounds good, sitting on a college campus with all the "high-minded" thinkers. But the real world and the harsh reality of life has a way of confronting the "fantasy" created in a socialist mind. I believe that's why many become liberals and whine so much - because real life isn't what they expected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Human nature being what it is, socialism can NEVER work, it will ALWAYS be hijacked, ALWAYS.

We obviously have different interpretations of human nature.

quote:

There are those that hunger for power, and those that hunger for it will do anything to get it and to keep it.

That applies to any political system; that's why we have scandals. The only effective deterrent is the removal of such positions of power, hence the dismantling of the state system.

quote:

Capitalism works because it takes into consideration Human nature. As a matter of fact, without Human nature, capitalism would not work.

If the system takes human nature into consideration, then why do so many humans want to overthrow it? And don't give me that crap about them being lazy or jealous of wealth because the majority of socialists are hard working and many are well-off.

quote:

Those of us that feel the need to succeed, the need to excel, we thrive in capitalism, those that wish to do one thing and are comfortable with that one thing, THRIVE in capitalism. Anyone can and will thrive in capitalism, it is self correcting, it grows, it expands, it lifts ALL boats. Just as a republican form of government with a true Bill of Rights will thrive until it is perverted into what it is not.

That is what I call a fantasy. It's like saying that people fail because they feel the need to fail, that the exploited are comfortable with exploitation.

quote:

Capitalism is the best system so far that takes into account human nature, look at the US, it is the biggest and greatest country ever created, why? because of capitalism, our poverty level is joke, less then $20,000 a year and you are impoverished, China, less then $300 a year is normal, it is the average, USSR was the same way.

I don't recognize China as a genuinely socialist nation, but for the sake of fairness, three hundred dollars in China has more than ten times the purchasing power of three hundred dollars in America, the Chinese people are more self-sufficient in the production of basic goods (e.g. they grow their own food), and China's population is twice the size of America's.

As for American wealth: the USA preaches 'free' trade internationally while installing trade barriers around itself; ten percent of its income is generated by organized crime; and many of the nation's wealthiest business owners operate in corrupt or authoritarian regimes where money is put before freedom, human rights, and even life itself.

quote:

Socialism CANNOT work because no one owns anything, and therefore does not care about it.

Socialism CAN work because there is no private property, and therefore what the worker builds does not become someone else's personal object to call their own.

quote:

Personal ownership creates personal responsibility and pride in that ownership and therefore will thrive.

Personal ownership creates a heightened sense of power and the desire to maintain that power. Personal responsibility comes from personal freedom, and pride comes from what you build, not what you buy.

quote:

Given an option most people will try and do the best they can with the skills and intelligence they have, and in a capitalism they can do that, in a socialism they never get the chance, they are placed in the puzzle arbitrarily, where they are needed. Whether they have an interest in that occupation or not. In capitalism, too many doctors, price for doctors goes down, making less doctors. In socialism, there is not that self correcting mechanism.

The only difference between capitalism and socialism in this regard is who or what decides that there are too many doctors. In capitalism it's the market, in socialism it's the collective. Both function the same way except that markets are profit-centred and collectives are human-centred.

quote:

THERE HAS TO BE CENTRAL control of some sort or another, telling people where they can and cannot fit in. That central control is what perverts it and makes it unworkable, also the fact that there is nothing to motivate the workers to work harder.

Collectives are the antithesis of centralized organization. There is no hierarchy, everyone has a say, and everyone votes. Collective organization is already a proven method in some workplaces.

quote:

I want to make more money, I work harder, and I make more money, in socialism, I want to make more money, well, too bad, and therefore my motivation is gone.

First, only some types of socialism support flat work rates (e.g. Proudhonism); Marx himself disagreed with it. Secondly, only some types of socialism hold to the assumption that monetary currency is essential to any economy; it's only essential to a market economy.

The motivation is in the level of human need that is met. Every worker receives the basics (shelter, food, clothing, etc.) because they're the preconditions of equal liberty. Work hard and higher levels of human need are met.

quote:

Capitalism lifts all boats, creates jobs, creates goods that are needed, and creates goodwill and motivated people.

I'm not familiar with the 'lifts all boats' espression, but creating jobs and goods that are needed is what any economic system does, and it does not create goodwill or motivated people.

quote:

This is another reason we have this war. Israel is a democracy, it is also a capitalist society. It is RICH, those that do not have that opportunity are jealous and wish to take that which they have NOT worked for and therefore do not deserve. The "Palestinians" do not have a democracy, they do not have a capitalist society, why? because they are run by those same power hungry people that I mentioned to you earlier.

A possibility, but the Palestinians are not socialist either.

quote:

They wish to make Israel the scapegoat for why thier people are in such bad shape. It is Israels fault that you live in squalor, it is Israels fault that you live without food and money. Nevermind that we, the leaders of you do not give you the opportunity necessary for you to succeed, we do not want you to succeed, we want you miserable, that is what keeps us in power. THe worse off you are, the better and easier it is for us to use Israel as the scapegoat to stay in power.

Every state, including the capitalist states, uses scapegoats to explain away economic and political problems.

quote:

Human Nature Menchise, it can be good and it can be evil. capitalism is a way to put that human nature to good use.

My reply to this point is at the end of my post.

quote:

And it works, look at the US, we lost almost a trillion dollars with that terrorist attack, we suffered, but it NEVER came near to destroying us. Name me one country, just one, that would survive, let alone prosper after such an incident.

Japan.

quote:

I work to support MY family, I WORK to take care of MYSELF. I WORK FOR ME!!! That is why it works!! and because I work for MYSELF, I create other jobs through the products that I buy for MYSELF, I make others rich by buying products that they produce for ME.

Socialism is the same, except for the currency.

quote:

Throwing that "it's good for society" crap is just that, CRAP, and will never stick, but throw out that, "It's good for YOU" out there, and it will work EVERY time.

It's good for you and society.

quote:

I work for me, NOT YOU, NOT ARAMIKE, NOT GOALIE, NOT ANYONE BUT ME. I make others successful, my boss mainly, because I want to make myself money, and therefore make him money as well. IT WORKS, and it WORKS far beyond what most imagine!!!

How can you say that you don't work for anyone but you and mention that you make money for your boss as well? It does not work because bosses are compelled by the competition to get as much out of workers for as little as possible, and what the worker produces becomes the personal property of the business owner who didn't lift a finger to make it, not to mention the surplus value that the owner accumulates from the workers' labour. The worker performs most of the productive input without receiving a fair share of the output. It's exploitation, pure and simple.

quote:

You think that the SC would have created this game in a socialist system. Very few people play it when you compare it to other games. It is a NICHE title. In a socialism, it would never have had a chance. WHY? because the central controllers would have looked at Derek and said, we don't need this game, there is no NEED for it, therefore, we are sending you off to the plant to put together automobiles or televisions or something. Without capitalism and a capitalist society, Battlecruiser would not exist, and I can name around a billion other products that would NOT exist without capitalism.

Rubbish. Marx himself describes recreation as a human need. He even argues that humans can become physically unhealthy without it! Battlecruiser would exist because it's an excellent product, and I'll bet that it wouldn't have been released unfinished by a publisher. I can also name some products that would not exist without capitalism: the hundreds of crappy "me too" clones that divert resources away from developers with something original to offer.

quote:

It thrives on greed, it thrives on personal want, it thrives on luxury type items. It THRIVES period, because of the very human nature that makes SOCIALISM IMPOSSIBLE.

The need for recreation is not a characteristic of greed, and the fact that it's a need means that it's not a luxury.

quote:

Human nature, it all comes down to that in the end, and without taking that into consideration, ALL other systems, sooner or later will fail. Capitalism uses human nature, actually it depends on it, that is why it works so well.

Capitalism depends on the suppression of human nature by manipulating the human capacity to adapt for the sake of survival. It puts human beings in a social structure where they must compete in order to survive, so they compete; It divides humanity into a hierarchy of workers and owners, so they aim for higher positions to insure survival; it forces owners to exploit workers in order to maintain their positions, so they exploit; it forces workers to not only allow themselves to be exploited, but to feel grateful about it, so they do. This is not human nature, it's oppression.

If greed was a natural inheritence of humanity, then socialism would never have existed because human beings would have been incapable of recognizing greed as destructive. The mere fact that humans can admit how wrong it is proves that it is not within human nature to behave in such a way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going to respond if nobody minds...

quote:

We obviously have different interpretations of human nature.


My interpretation of human nature is that a person will do what is best for themself every time, before doing something for someone else. If someone has to make a choice between themselves, and anyone else (except children, family, etc.), they will definitely pick themselves.

"There are two methods, or means, and only two, whereby man's needs and desires can be satisfied. One is the production and exchange of wealth; this is the economic means. The other is the uncompensated appropriation of wealth produced by others; this is the political means.

-Albert Jay Nock "

Socialism would be the political means, whereby those who earn more, are subjugated to a graduated income tax which redistributes wealth to those who do not make enough - i.e. plank 2 of the Communist Manifesto.

quote:

If the system takes human nature into consideration, then why do so many humans want to overthrow it? And don't give me that crap about them being lazy or jealous of wealth because the majority of socialists are hard working and many are well-off.

"Achievers know that income is earned. Non-achieving leftists think that income is distributed. "

I'm going to say that I believe you when you say the majority of socialists are "well-off". I'm willing to also say that "hard working" does not infer the same thing that it does for say - a construction worker. I believe that people who are "well-off" have more time to invest in fantasies for those they see beneath their social status to prosper. It's nothing but self-guilt at having achieved more than someone else.

"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.-Robert Heinlein"

quote:

That is what I call a fantasy. It's like saying that people fail because they feel the need to fail, that the exploited are comfortable with exploitation.

Everyone ends up where they are in life because of choices they made. If they didn't plan for retirement, and counted on the lottery to pay for their retirement, and they never win, it's called bad choice. I believe you simply try to alleviate the responsibility people have by screwing up in life, by blaming those that succeed. I call this envy.

quote:

three hundred dollars in China has more than ten times the purchasing power of three hundred dollars in America

Because the Chinese people don't have the ability to raise the market value of their items, because they cannot compete with the industrialized world. Three hundred dollars would probably make me a king in Mexico, but you don't see me moving down there. The reason being, their economy is so poor, that what seems like a little bit to us, is major to them.

I call it a weak economy, somehow you see strength .

quote:

Socialism CAN work because there is no private property, and therefore what the worker builds does not become someone else's personal object to call their own.

Call it old fashioned Americanism. People feel a need to own personal property. Besides that, I see it as a fundamental right - otherwise stealing wouldn't be stealing it would be taking what is everyone's.

quote:

The only difference between capitalism and socialism in this regard is who or what decides that there are too many doctors. In capitalism it's the market, in socialism it's the collective. Both function the same way except that markets are profit-centred and collectives are human-centred.


So in a capitalist economy, I believe that the standards, and such show how many doctors are needed. Not everyone can, or wants to be a doctor. But in socialism, you need ten more doctors, send them to a mediocre school (that they may not even want), and voila' you have doctors of a lesser quality than Capitalism. That's the way it would work out despite fantasy.

quote:

Collectives are the antithesis of centralized organization. There is no hierarchy, everyone has a say, and everyone votes. Collective organization is already a proven method in some workplaces.

What better way to exercise "mob rule"? If there are 100 people in a room, 99 of them vote to hang the 100th, the 100th only has one vote so it sucks for him.

Let me put it another way, if 51 people out of a hundred vote to take everything away from the other 49, what is there to say about it?

Majority rule is tyranny, the minority rights are trampled.

quote:

Every state, including the capitalist states, uses scapegoats to explain away economic and political problems.


Every socialist I've met scapegoats western civilization for the problems in the world. If everyone had advanved at the same rate as us, there wouldn't be so much complaining. Underachievers and their envy...

quote:

Japan.


Good one Menchise.

quote:

It's good for you and society.


"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.-Robert Heinlein" Again.

quote:

How can you say that you don't work for anyone but you and mention that you make money for your boss as well? It does not work because bosses are compelled by the competition to get as much out of workers for as little as possible, and what the worker produces becomes the personal property of the business owner who didn't lift a finger to make it, not to mention the surplus value that the owner accumulates from the workers' labour. The worker performs most of the productive input without receiving a fair share of the output. It's exploitation, pure and simple.

It's called the food chain.

However, unlike nature, people have the ability to fight their way to the top.

quote:

If greed was a natural inheritence of humanity, then socialism would never have existed because human beings would have been incapable of recognizing greed as destructive. The mere fact that humans can admit how wrong it is proves that it is not within human nature to behave in such a way.


Socialism exists as an idea. An impractical one. I wouldn't deny that if all things were as you say and 100% of the people went along with the idea, that it wouldn't be bad. However, the very fact that so many disagree just represents your position as tyrannical. Even if 51% of the population of earth wanted a socialist system, it doesn't give them the "majority" right to force it on the other 49%.

That's all there is to the issue, you can argue it's merits and about "how great it would be if...", but the fact of the matter is that as long as there is even a strong minority who oppose it, it won't happen as you say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am a soldier with the US Army. I also know this is a complicated issue. I can only speak as to how I feel. To do otherwise would require me to get a PHD in too many subjects.

I personally would volunteer for any duty that would separate these two groups of people from committing any more violent acts upon each other. Even if the UN did deploy forces I am not aware of any procedure to get an assignment like this via Army channels.

Keep in mind I speak only for myself. Because of the many other operations worldwide many have little desire to get involved in any more conflicts.

I change my mind.... I’ll play PHD for a sec....

In my opinion, playing the blame game does nothing to resolve the situation. I feel that if a UN peacekeeping force were inserted after a period of cease-fire.... Any side that chose to violate it would be the clear enemy of peace.

Any way you look at this situation there is the potential for escalation. This escalation can lead to large wars that could potential lead to other problems world wide. (Not to mention the danger to regional stability through inaction). I feel only a third party (with a worldwide endorsement) has any real shot of giving peace a chance. And if they wanted trained volunteers, I would go in a minute…. Not as a US soldier but as a peacekeeper.

SGT Crusan, Lowen C.

HHB 1-30th FA

[ 04-16-2002, 02:01: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was gonna try to stay out of this thread......but the temptation has just become to great.....

I spent some time in Israel when I was in the Military....this would've been about oh uh 1986....I toured the country...swam in the Dead Sea...climbed Masada...toured the bunkers in the Golan Heights...and the thing I remember the most was standing by a memorial dedicated to a tank unit,(I forget the strength,Battalion I think) that died, to the last man, trying to hold against the Syrians and give the IDF time to mobilize.

Anyone who believes that the Israelis are going to give up their country is living in a fantasy world. It's not gonna happen.

just about every Country in the World has had some civilization, country, tribe, or group whose occupation of it's lands predates the current controllers. To use that as as argument for the Israelis to give in to the Palestinians is ludicrous.

The debate on terrorism vs. warfare is also pretty much irrelevant at this point. Israel has been attacked by Palestinians who have been sponsored,trained and supplied by the men(or man ) who represents the Palestinian people.

make no mistake about it...this is a war.

It is now the duty and responsibility of the Israeli Military and Government, to neutralize the threat to Israel. And if that means killing every single person of Palestinian blood, so be it.That's their JOB....To neutralize threats to the Israeli people.And if you, as a political entity show that you are going to use your citizenry as weapon delivery platforms. so be it.they must be neutralized........pretty simple actually.....at least from a military point of view

As for the Palestinians, if they continue to let the Hard-liners call the shot's and put them on the firing line. Let them go...let them Vanish from the face of the Earth,because the gene pool could certainly do with out their nonsense. If they want to go be with Allah through the great Jihad,Then by all means let's speed them on their way. For them it's an internal problem. but also pretty simple, get some new, more moderate leadership, behave like civilized folks, or face annihilation. Why does everybody insist we coddle these FU%^in' people?

The Israelis have been much more tolerant than they needed to be.MUCH more tolerant than the U.S. would've been.( as evidenced by this past year ) Why does everybody think we should DO ANYTHING...It's not our business. Let the Israelis defend their country, and let the Palestinians learn the error of their ways or fade into history.

and finally,

A few Questions for Menchise

How old are you?

have you ever had a REAL job?

Who is paying for your education.

and have you really THOUGHT about this stuff you're saying or are you just a drone that spits out this prattle whensome one uses the "socialism" keyword?

The Phenomenon that is Humanity is much too diverse in temperment, Ideology, religion, culture etc. etc. to even seriously entertain the thought that socialism is viable. If you take 100 people and ask them "what is the most important thing to do" and "how do we go about doing it" you are probably going to get 100 different answers. This is the STRENGTH of the human race. Your Socialist Collective would never work ,It would lack Vision,Focus,and Direction. These are provided by leaders.....and you have none.

And this doesn't take into consideration the Negative aspects of the Human equation.

Because those guys around the corner.....they think your socialism sucks, because they want to be estranged from labor,matter of fact ...they want to be as far from labor as they can be....However they still want what you have. They also have leaders...they have a vision......to have all your shit, they have a focus....to gang up on you folks and Take all your shit. and they have direction....the direction they need to go to get to your shit...

while I am being a bit facetious here, the point is valid.If you haven't seen that the dark side of human nature is alive and kicking.then you need to grow up and join us in the real world.

Sorry, it's just a bad operating system.way to buggy and unstable as hell.

[ 04-16-2002, 05:26: Message edited by: Stormshadow ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stormshadow....respect your tour....and your thoughts....some of them.

Recommend rent copy of A Few Good Men, fast forward to the end and watch the last part of the hearings.....you seem to have a bit in common with our misunderstood hero/villian COL Jesop.....

Then again....maybe I can't handle truth!

[ 04-16-2002, 08:55: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well... at least it is back on topic...

My opinion on this topic is that neither side is wholly right or wrong, as hey, excessive violence (like Jaguar stated earlier) is not going to do it, but neither will sweet-talking, or bringing their leaders together solve thier problem...

A possible solution (probably unfeasable thouh) would be to have Syria or some other country bordering Israel give the Palestinians some land on the other side of them, away from Israel.

As i said, probably unfeasable.

[ 04-16-2002, 08:03: Message edited by: Kartoffel ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...